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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 5th November 2021, 08:25 AM   #121
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It's the "If there's 100 speeders on the road, 25 black and 75 white, and the cops only pull over the black speeders and none of the white speeders it's not racism because well they were speeding, do you deny they were speeding, let's talk about how they were speeding and refuse to discuss any other context" form of racism.

As you say either laughable doing a terrible job of hiding it racism or really bad math skills.
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Old 5th November 2021, 08:29 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the "If there's 100 speeders on the road, 25 black and 75 white, and the cops only pull over the black speeders and none of the white speeders it's not racism because well they were speeding, do you deny they were speeding, let's talk about how they were speeding and refuse to discuss any other context" form of racism.

As you say either laughable doing a terrible job of hiding it racism or really bad math skills.
Going to call you out on that out.


False dichotomy!
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Old 5th November 2021, 08:30 AM   #123
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Caught the ass end of opening statements. Seems the prosecution had a bit of an issue staying on point.
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Old 5th November 2021, 08:54 AM   #124
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Wow, already asking for a mistrial. I didn't hear what the prosecutor said, but she apparently overstepped the bounds quite a bit.
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Old 5th November 2021, 08:56 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Wow, already asking for a mistrial. I didn't hear what the prosecutor said, but she apparently overstepped the bounds quite a bit.
Maybe I've watched too much law and order, but I am shocked by how routine it is for prosecutors to be bad at their jobs.
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Old 5th November 2021, 09:48 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the "If there's 100 speeders on the road, 25 black and 75 white, and the cops only pull over the black speeders and none of the white speeders it's not racism because well they were speeding, do you deny they were speeding, let's talk about how they were speeding and refuse to discuss any other context" form of racism.

As you say either laughable doing a terrible job of hiding it racism or really bad math skills.
And that's what you need to show. A pattern. One cop with a one-off interaction in Albuquerque, comparing with another cop with a one-off interaction in NYC five years later is not establishing a pattern. Police are no more a monolithic group than black people, or white people, or line cooks or any other group.

What would be meaningful is to show exactly what you claim: individuals following a pattern. When we have a story about accused racists, that's what I want to see, the accused's prior interactions with black people. Is this following a pattern?

When a white woman won't let a black man bypass a security checkpoint, and it turns out she is freaking married to a black man, I'm going to lean towards "probably not a Klanswoman. Probably a city dweller suspicious of anyone trying to duck a security swipe". Because being married to a black man does not fit the pattern.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:04 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And that's what you need to show. A pattern. One cop with a one-off interaction in Albuquerque, comparing with another cop with a one-off interaction in NYC five years later is not establishing a pattern. Police are no more a monolithic group than black people, or white people, or line cooks or any other group.

What would be meaningful is to show exactly what you claim: individuals following a pattern. When we have a story about accused racists, that's what I want to see, the accused's prior interactions with black people. Is this following a pattern?

When a white woman won't let a black man bypass a security checkpoint, and it turns out she is freaking married to a black man, I'm going to lean towards "probably not a Klanswoman. Probably a city dweller suspicious of anyone trying to duck a security swipe". Because being married to a black man does not fit the pattern.
It's not like the world's largest police force ever adopted an explicit policy of harrassing black and brown people who lived in poor neighborhoods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-a..._New_York_City
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:06 AM   #128
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"Prove it's racism!"
"Is there literally any level of proof that will satisfy you?"
"LOL no."

Just like I said. Any, literally any, level of plausible deniability is enough for the apologist to declare racism "a strawman hyperbolic overreaction virtue signaling"

If your opinion is that you can take 11 of 12 potential black jurors out of a jury pool and a racism motivation still has to be proved, you are not worth talking to.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:15 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's not like the world's largest police force ever adopted an explicit policy of harrassing black and brown people who lived in poor neighborhoods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-a..._New_York_City
Exactly. Here, you can show a clear, wide pattern with this group of police. So when an Eric Garner gets killed, the needle can fairly be tipped hard in that direction. you could argue it, of course. You could say crime is exponentially higher in these neighborhoods, so police are more suspicious of the population. They may even be familiar with the "random" individuals they are stopping. But at least you have a solid pattern to fall on to have that presumption of guilt.

My argument, as always, is that this presumption does not fairly apply to all cops across the continent, and decades. It doesn't demonstrate ACAB.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:17 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And that's what you need to show. A pattern.
When a system inevitably permits a lawyer to stack a jury in favour of one, and only one, ethnicity, as here, then the system discriminates in favour of that ethnicity. The arithmetic itself demonstrates the bias.

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Old 5th November 2021, 10:18 AM   #131
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11 out of 12 isn't "a pattern?" In what cuckoo world?
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:19 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Prove it's racism!"
"Is there literally any level of proof that will satisfy you?"
"LOL no."

Just like I said. Any, literally any, level of plausible deniability is enough for the apologist to declare racism "a strawman hyperbolic overreaction virtue signaling"

If your opinion is that you can take 11 of 12 potential black jurors out of a jury pool and a racism motivation still has to be proved, you are not worth talking to.
Not sure if this is addressed to anyone, but I'm agreeing with you. 11 of 12 is a damn clear pattern. Confederate flags on the truck of a murderer is a damn clear pattern of racist background. That's why there is no argument about racism, here. It's crystal clear.

The DA still needs to go down hard for this one. She's getting swept under the rug.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Prove it's racism!"
"Is there literally any level of proof that will satisfy you?"
"LOL no."

Just like I said. Any, literally any, level of plausible deniability is enough for the apologist to declare racism "a strawman hyperbolic overreaction virtue signaling"
The way it works around here is that even with zero evidence, the burden is always to prove that racism wasn't involved. Fortunately that is not how the justice system works. Normally evidence and that sort of thing are required when dealing with accusation.

This trial, and others, would play out a lot differently under ISF rules, no doubt. They would be starting off with a presumption of guilt.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:24 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not sure if this is addressed to anyone, but I'm agreeing with you. 11 of 12 is a damn clear pattern. Confederate flags on the truck of a murderer is a damn clear pattern of racist background. That's why there is no argument about racism, here. It's crystal clear.

The DA still needs to go down hard for this one. She's getting swept under the rug.
Was the jury selection result because of blatant racism, or smart strategy by the defense? They aren't supposed to try to lose the case for their clients. As I have said, the prosecution would be wetting their pants in joy if they could have wrangled an all-black jury.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:35 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Was the jury selection result because of blatant racism, or smart strategy by the defense? They aren't supposed to try to lose the case for their clients. As I have said, the prosecution would be wetting their pants in joy if they could have wrangled an all-black jury.
Well, it would be a racism-based strategy, if a practically effective one. I talked to my freshly-Barred NJ lawyer kid about this. She agreed- perfectly legal but transparently reprehensible. Skin color shouldn't factor in when selecting an impartial jury if your case is in the right.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:44 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Skin color shouldn't factor in when selecting an impartial jury if your case is in the right.
Skin color shouldn't matter...in a perfect world.

But, this isn't a perfect world. The implication is something like, "With a good case, no matter how biased the jury, it shouldn't matter." That is just not reality.

I bet if the jurors were split 50/50 in race, or even predominantly black, nobody here would be complaining about the demographics of the county as compared to the jury composition. That is because most are already operating under a presumption of guilt.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:46 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Maybe I've watched too much law and order, but I am shocked by how routine it is for prosecutors to be bad at their jobs.
It is like that in a lot of places because they get away with crappy work as some judges will bail them out whenever possible. Plus sometimes every case pleads out and they can go years without being in front of a jury. When they do try something all too often the case is so open and shut that they literally can't screw it up.

When they wind up doing a case with eyeballs on it and/or against a team of well bankrolled lawyers rather than some public defender it can get messy.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:49 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It is like that in a lot of places because they get away with crappy work as some judges will bail them out whenever possible. Plus sometimes every case pleads out and they can go years without being in front of a jury. When they do try something all too often the case is so open and shut that they literally can't screw it up.

When they wind up doing a case with eyeballs on it and/or against a team of well bankrolled lawyers rather than some public defender it can get messy.
You're probably right, our system is so stacked for the prosecution, it's making them soft. When they actually have to run a trial they're tripping over their own dick left and right.

What an easy gig. Throw the accused in jail pretrial and watch as their life falls apart, stack up a bunch of charges to scare the bejesus out of them, offer a lesser sentence in a plea bargain, and have judge rubber stamp it. 8hrs a day just cranking the plea bargain machine.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:17 AM   #139
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So apparently the prosecution just isn't allowed to mention the fact that there was a huge gap in time between the incident and the arrest.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:22 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So apparently the prosecution just isn't allowed to mention the fact that there was a huge gap in time between the incident and the arrest.
To be fair, the fact that the local cops and DA conspired to cover up a lynching speaks very poorly for them, but doesn't really have much to do with the question of the three killers' culpability.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:25 AM   #141
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LoL this attorney is trying really hard to to make the son not look like a complete and total ******* loser!

His landlord sold the apartment he lived in so he couldn't get a new one? Living with mom and dad to save some money. What a douche
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:28 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be fair, the fact that the local cops and DA conspired to cover up a lynching speaks very poorly for them, but doesn't really have much to do with the question of the three killers' culpability.
The murder, at least in the case of Travis, is a slam dunk, I would hope (Greg and Roddy might be tougher to prove conspiracy/ murder but will deal with their other felonies).

That ******* DA though, is skating off way too easy for my tastes. Those three (or at the very least, Travis) should have been in a cel that night and charged with homicide in seconds, leaving them to their proofs in later trial.

Eta: at least some of the responding police wanted to cuff and process them on the spot, IIRC.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:31 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The murder, at least in the case of Travis, is a slam dunk, I would hope (Greg and Roddy might be tougher to prove conspiracy/ murder but will deal with their other felonies).

That ******* DA though, is skating off way too easy for my tastes. Those three (or at the very least, Travis) should have been in a cel that night and charged with homicide in seconds, leaving them to their proofs in later trial.
I'm waiting for more info about this car chase prior to the shooting. Earlier public statements made it sound like there was pretty compelling physical evidence that Roddie struck him with his car during a prolonged cat-and-mouse pursuit.

If that's the case, seems like a pretty straightforward path to finding them all accomplices on the murder, whether they anticipated that's where it was going or not. Travis might be the trigger man, but if they were involved in a criminal attack together, they all hang together.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:40 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
When a system inevitably permits a lawyer to stack a jury in favour of one, and only one, ethnicity, as here, then the system discriminates in favour of that ethnicity. The arithmetic itself demonstrates the bias.

Dave
The "system" as you call it, should damn well be color blind. That's exactly the problem. Court rules allow for excusing with cause and without, but doesn't factor in "well we all know how black people will think". And it shouldn't. That unfortunately leaves attorneys a situation ripe for abuse. But I still don't want jurors chosen by skin color, one way or the other.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:54 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The "system" as you call it, should damn well be color blind. That's exactly the problem. Court rules allow for excusing with cause and without, but doesn't factor in "well we all know how black people will think". And it shouldn't. That unfortunately leaves attorneys a situation ripe for abuse. But I still don't want jurors chosen by skin color, one way or the other.
They're not supposed to be chosen by skin color, which is the problem. In this case it just so happens that the only people the defense had issues with seem to be people with darker shades of skin. The judge commented on it, confirmed that it appears to be that way, but said there was nothing he could do because the defense had other problems with the jurors. Kind of sucks.
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Old 5th November 2021, 11:58 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The "system" as you call it, should damn well be color blind. That's exactly the problem. Court rules allow for excusing with cause and without, but doesn't factor in "well we all know how black people will think". And it shouldn't. That unfortunately leaves attorneys a situation ripe for abuse. But I still don't want jurors chosen by skin color, one way or the other.
But it seems clear that the defence was able to do exactly that. They wanted an all white jury, and manipulated the system in an entirely predictable way so that they got most of the way there. Excusing without cause seems to be a big part of the problem, doesn't it?

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Old 5th November 2021, 11:59 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They're not supposed to be chosen by skin color, which is the problem. In this case it just so happens that the only people the defense had issues with seem to be people with darker shades of skin. The judge commented on it, confirmed that it appears to be that way, but said there was nothing he could do because the defense had other problems with the jurors. Kind of sucks.
Agreed. While I get the reasoning behind dismissing jurors without cause, it's too easy to abuse. Better that a juror can only be dismissed with cause, and adjust the standards for what constitutes cause.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:03 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But it seems clear that the defence was able to do exactly that. They wanted an all white jury, and manipulated the system in an entirely predictable way so that they got most of the way there. Excusing without cause seems to be a big part of the problem, doesn't it?

Dave
Yes, and addressed to plauge while you were posting. My lawyer kid is always quick to remind me that courts are not about strictly right and wrong, but legal and illegal. The discussion should be focused on how the rules could be changed to prevent abuses like the defense is so clearly taking advantage of here.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:03 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. While I get the reasoning behind dismissing jurors without cause, it's too easy to abuse. Better that a juror can only be dismissed with cause, and adjust the standards for what constitutes cause.
The prosecution used all 12 of their strikes on white jurors (I wonder why?). The defense struck 13 whites.

Quote:
"One of the challenges that I think counsel recognized in this case is the racial overtones in the case. ... This is sort of the continuation of a conversation that I think will continue for a long time, with respect to this case," the judge said, but added that in Georgia, "all the defense needs to do is provide that legitimate, nondiscriminatory, clear, reasonably specific and related reason," for why they struck a juror and he said the defense met that burden.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/us/ah...now/index.html
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:09 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The prosecution used all 12 of their strikes on white jurors (I wonder why?). The defense struck 13 whites.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/us/ah...now/index.html
Dood, catch up. No one is saying it's illegal. We're saying it's a **** thing to do.

Jesus, no one is arguing with you.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:11 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Dood, catch up. No one is saying it's illegal. We're saying it's a **** thing to do.

Jesus, no one is arguing with you.
I'm not arguing with anyone, either.

I'm saying it isn't a **** thing to do...it is playing by the established rules. Does anyone expect the defense to be charitable to the prosecution?

Change the rules, then. But you still have issues if you are looking at jurors based on color and area demographics. What if the area were only 5% black...would that make for a more fair trial, since the number of black jurors better matched the demographics for the area?
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:12 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The prosecution used all 12 of their strikes on white jurors (I wonder why?). The defense struck 13 whites.



https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/03/us/ah...now/index.html
Yeah, and that's the mess. Its one thing to play the game with street savvy, but another to genuinely want an impartial jury. The last time I served, I went in looking like a whack job that neither side would want. But I didn't stay "in character" when being questioned, and got selected (not a racially charged case). The attorneys evaluated me blind to appearances, as they should.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:21 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not arguing with anyone, either.

I'm saying it isn't a **** thing to do...it is playing by the established rules. Does anyone expect the defense to be charitable to the prosecution?

Change the rules, then. But you still have issues if you are looking at jurors based on color and area demographics. What if the area were only 5% black...would that make for a more fair trial, since the number of black jurors better matched the demographics for the area?
LoL whatever Warp12. I don't scream into the wind.

It's not going to matter. They're going to prison either way, and bickering with you about it makes no difference. The defense got what they wanted. An almost all white jury. Fine, good for them. It's still not going to get them off. The two geriatrics are going to die in prison.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:28 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Change the rules, then. But you still have issues if you are looking at jurors based on color and area demographics. What if the area were only 5% black...would that make for a more fair trial, since the number of black jurors better matched the demographics for the area?
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's not going to matter. They're going to prison either way, and bickering with you about it makes no difference. The defense got what they wanted. An almost all white jury. Fine, good for them. It's still not going to get them off. The two geriatrics are going to die in prison.
The discussion matters if someone wants to affect meaningful change to a flawed system, as opposed to just shouting "racism".

I'm not losing any sleep over the outcome of this trial, no matter the result.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:38 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The discussion matters if someone wants to affect meaningful change to a flawed system, as opposed to just shouting "racism".
Well, yeah, this. Watching posters go through the big show of "look how much I hate racism" is entertaining for a while, but we never get to the nuts and bolts discussion of what can or should we actually *do*, for real, here and now. I thought we were going to finally get there on the recent No more White Saviors, Please thread, but it got awfully quiet over there. Some new shiny #LWB threads popped up, it seems.

Quote:
I'm not losing any sleep over the outcome of this trial, no matter the result.
You should. Every harbinger of doom is worth taking note over. To borrow from upthread, watch out for those patterns.
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:41 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The discussion matters if someone wants to affect meaningful change to a flawed system, as opposed to just shouting "racism".

I'm not losing any sleep over the outcome of this trial, no matter the result.
This forum isn't changing a flawed system. The things said here aren't changing a flawed system.

They did it because of racism. The ironic part is that one of the defense attorney's wasn't happy, and bitched that there weren't enough "Bubba" and "Joe Six-Pack" jurors, referring to white men over 40 without a four-year degree. He was actually upset that the jury was mostly white women. The stupidity is strong with this one. That ignorant dink is the next one up for opening arguments I believe too. This is going to be an absolute hoot.

ETA: It appears he's delaying his opening statement, if I'm understanding it right?
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:47 PM   #157
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"Hey thar, y'honor, shouldn't a true jury of peers be filled wit some Right-thinking good ol'boys?"

*hoists brow up and down rapidly*

Eta: the judge actually said to the defense "You have no right to a 'Bubba'-rich jury pool"
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:58 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
"Hey thar, y'honor, shouldn't a true jury of peers be filled wit some Right-thinking good ol'boys?"

*hoists brow up and down rapidly*
"He ain't mah peer! He don't agree wit me!"
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Old 5th November 2021, 12:59 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The discussion matters if someone wants to affect meaningful change to a flawed system, as opposed to just shouting "racism".
.
Ironically, shouting racism is the one thing that might bring meaningful change to a flawed system.

This trial has nothing to do with how the system is flawed. This is the system:

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey
What an easy gig. Throw the accused in jail pretrial and watch as their life falls apart, stack up a bunch of charges to scare the bejesus out of them, offer a lesser sentence in a plea bargain, and have judge rubber stamp it. 8hrs a day just cranking the plea bargain machine.
This thread is mostly entertainment. There are larger societal issues about race, violence, and law that are reflected within this spectacle, but in the big picture this and every other high profile case is bread and circuses crap that operates to distract people from the dystopian horror that is the day to day system.
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Old 5th November 2021, 01:02 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

ETA: It appears he's delaying his opening statement, if I'm understanding it right?
I hope not. Or maybe I hope so. Deferring opening is one of the most galaxy brained things in the practice of law.
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