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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 5th November 2021, 01:12 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I hope not. Or maybe I hope so. Deferring opening is one of the most galaxy brained things in the practice of law.
That's exactly what he did. Now they're showing police bodycam footage. Tough to see Ahmaud in the street like that. I can't wait to see these guys go to prison.

ETA: Oh, now they have to call IT. The video isn't working.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:20 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, it would be a racism-based strategy, if a practically effective one. I talked to my freshly-Barred NJ lawyer kid about this. She agreed- perfectly legal but transparently reprehensible. Skin color shouldn't factor in when selecting an impartial jury if your case is in the right.
It is not perfectly legal. Striking jurors based on race is barred. But that is what is says on paper. What happens in practice is a bit different.

It is often difficult to prove that strikes were done based on race, and for no other reason. The second part of that sentence is important.

IN this case, the defense was accused of using race to strike jurors. There was a hearing that covered the reasons that they struck those jurors. The court found that those reasons were not genuine and that the defense struck juror based on race.

The problem is that under Georgia law the judge cannot reseat a juror if the defense has provided any reasonable reason to strike. That means they would basically have to straight out say that is was due to race or lie or something like that.

There are other states where a judge can consider total circumstances. For example, defense says they struck two black juror because they said X. Saying X is reasonable for striking. But they did not strike two white jurors who also said X. The judge could conclude that the reason for striking is not genuine and was based on race because they did not strike other jurors of a different race even though they had the same exclusionary circumstances. Lacking any other acceptable reason, the conclusion would be that they were struck solely for race. Georgia does not give courts that leeway.

Before contemplating any possible drastic reforms, keep in mind that this is an unusual case. Due to the publicity, both sides were given far more preemptive strikes than normal. A normal small number of preemptive strikes allows both side to ask to strike for cause and when it is borderline and the judge doesn't agree they can use their strike without it generally being subject to appeal.

That means that usually it is not really possible to be discriminatory in jury strikes. This isn't really normal. This isn't what we should base decisions on in term of juries.

But it does show how the limitation on courts in Georgia can allow unlawful discrimination in jury selection where the court cannot do anything about it. That certainly seems to be what happened here.
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Old 5th November 2021, 10:26 PM   #163
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To me, the judge looks quite similar to Johnny Carson in a certain way. Just keeps weirding me out. I think he is doing a great job.
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Old 6th November 2021, 08:49 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's exactly what he did. Now they're showing police bodycam footage. Tough to see Ahmaud in the street like that. I can't wait to see these guys go to prison.

ETA: Oh, now they have to call IT. The video isn't working.
I'm going to sit here for a minute and be staggered by the whole deferring the opening thing.

....

.....

......


okay, finished


I've never made it through a jury trial where any sort of IT stuff was used and there wasn't a problem. It is like there is some sort of mystical faraday cage thing in courtrooms.
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Old 6th November 2021, 10:45 AM   #165
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Watching the defense opening statements, I was glad that they drew attention to something which has always seemed very telling to me: the fact that Arbery never spoke a word to the McMichaels.

We heard about how he was offered an opportunity to talk / explain himself with two men who were, at that time, not obviously armed and who were both seated in the cabin of the truck at that time as well.

They were saying "Wait, we want to talk to you. Where are you coming from? What were you doing?" etc.

We've been fed this nonsense narrative for coming up on two years now, that Arbery was simply out for a jog and, though he may have innocently been looking around an open construction site, he had no reason to think he'd done anything wrong, and no reason to have any understanding of what these white guys in the truck could possibly want. That he was completely justified in being afraid of them and assuming the worst about their motives.

All 100% nonsense, as I always knew it was.

Arbery's silence, running patterns, and eventual attack on Travis McMichael all speak clearly to the same conclusion: he viewed himself as a criminal who had been caught in the act, and had gone into desperation mode where he didn't even think there was any point trying to talk his way out of it, bluff his way out of it, or face the police under the assumption that they really didn't have much on him.

He may have drastically over-estimated his legal peril. Maybe he thought more was captured on those security cameras than actually was. Maybe he knew he had stolen things in that house, and didn't realize the cameras hadn't picked that up or that it couldn't be proven by other means. Who knows?

What's clear is that he felt his best option was not only to run at max speed and try to evade these guys, to do anything he could to avoid still being there when the cops showed up, but that this even extended to deciding his best bet was to try to grab their firearms and likely kill them with it.

A lot of people will have a hard time believing that. How could someone possibly get into that mindset, and take those kind of actions, based on a situation where they probably weren't even facing much consequence when the cops did show up?

Well, if you honestly can't imagine it, you're probably suffering from too large of an IQ gap between yourself and Arbery, and having difficulty putting yourself into the headspace of a habitual, impulsive criminal.

It's exactly the same kind of "thought process" that leads to other criminals shooting a cop who pulls them over, initiating a manhunt where the entire police infrastructure is coming after them, rather than facing the music. The same mindset that leads other criminals to murder an entire family for a couple of dollars, etc.

Look up some of the studies on criminals and their thought process. It's damned hard to imagine if you're an intellectual sort, but there really are people running around our society who operate almost entirely on impulse, and often violent impulse.

No sane society would seek to imprison three concerned, good neighbors looking out for their neighborhood because they defended their life against such a person after confronting them during criminal activity.

This is "Key to the city" territory, not "murder trial" territory.
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Old 6th November 2021, 11:07 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
…snip…

No sane society would seek to imprison three concerned, good neighbors looking out for their neighborhood because they defended their life against such a person after confronting them during criminal activity.

…snip…
I actually agree with you but no idea what it has to do with this trial. You seem to have missed that this is the trial of 3 men who in cold blood hunted down and murdered an innocent citizen who was no threat to them.
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Old 6th November 2021, 01:19 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I actually agree with you but no idea what it has to do with this trial. You seem to have missed that this is the trial of 3 men who in cold blood hunted down and murdered an innocent citizen who was no threat to them.
Oh, Skeptic Tank knows about this trial alright, its just that his position is because Arbury was black, he was therefore, by default, presumed to be a criminal, and that made him fair game for the Good Ol' Boys to use him for target practice.
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Old 6th November 2021, 01:35 PM   #168
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Thankfully, we don't have to humour racist opinions, since it doesn't even matter what Arbery's thought process was. The ones on trial are three people who decided it was a good idea to hunt someone down Mad Max style.
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Old 6th November 2021, 02:07 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
. Maybe he knew he had stolen things in that house, and didn't realize the cameras hadn't picked that up or that it couldn't be proven by other means. Who knows?
t
Was there any stolen property found on him?
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Old 6th November 2021, 04:26 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
All 100% nonsense, as I always knew it was.
Skeptic Tank has established that at least one pseudonymous member of an obscure online forum is 100% convinced that he/she/it understands what was going through Arbery's mind in the moments before he was shot to death.

The fact that some racist(s) might have convinced themselves they can read the mind(s) of their victim(s) is not a lawful basis for killing those victims.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Who knows?
"Who knows?" is not lawful grounds for a citizen's arrest, let alone justification for murder.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Well, if you honestly can't imagine it, you're probably suffering from too large of an IQ gap between yourself and Arbery, and having difficulty putting yourself into the headspace of a habitual, impulsive criminal.
We don't have to imagine the possibility that there are racists in this world who go around looking for any opportunity, no matter how bogus, to "justify" their killing of a black man who was undoubtedly aware that there are racists in this world who go around looking for any opportunity, no matter how bogus, to "justify" their killing of a black man. Instead of imagining that possibility, we can just read some of the garbage being posted online.
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Old 6th November 2021, 06:52 PM   #171
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I think the prosecution may a good opening statement. The whole case really depends on whether this was a lawful citizen's arrest. Because they did not witness a crime, they can only do a citizen's arrest if they had "reasonable and probable suspicion" that a felony had been committed. The defense claim is that they believe Arbery had committed the felony of burglary.

The first problem is whether this could even be considered a possible burglary. The judge gave a definition of some legal terms, including burglary. The definition he gave is that it is entering a dwelling with intent to steal or commit some other felony. A dwelling is a building that may be occupied or unoccupied and is intended to be a residence. (There is also 2nd degree burglary that includes structures that are not a residence and that is also a felony, so I am not sure why the judge only gave the definition that requires a dwelling.)

This was house under construction. It has no doors and mostly just studs and no walls. Even though it is intended to become a residence, at this point in construction it is probably not reasonable to consider this a dwelling.

Then there is the issue that Arbery did not take anything at that time. Greg even said he didn't think Arbery had taken anything. Arbery wasn't carrying anything. Burglary can be just intent to steal, but that is difficult to prove. In criminal cases it usually relies on carrying burglary tools or wearing black clothes or a ski mask in the summer or something like that. The judge said that intent can only be inferred if the person goes into a building where there are things to steal and there is no other possible reason for the person entering the building. Arbery may have been just looking around, as other people had been doing. No such inference can be made.

There is also the issue that Greg says he didn't know where Arbery came from or what he had been doing. Early on he said that he decided to chase after him because "He was running from somewhere. He was running away from something. He might have hurt somebody or whatever." He didn't know where Arbery came from. He didn't know he had been in that construction house that day. His only guess was that maybe he had hurt somebody, not that he had a probable suspicion of burglary.

Citizen's arrest is generally considered to be for cases where a person is at the scene of the crime. It is usually not considered valid if someone does their own investigation and they later decide they think they know who did it and attempt to arrest that person. Any suspicion about Arbery was based on knowing that he was caught on video wandering around English's construction site, not any knowledge he had on what had just occurred.

They did not call 911 until 5 minutes into the chase. I wondered if that neighbor from across the street who called 911 (he actually called the 108 non-emergency number) had yelled anything to Greg when he walked down the street and pointed at Arbery. Did he yell "Stop the burglar!" or "I just called 911!" Prosecution says Greg did not hear anything from that neighbor and only saw him pointing at the guy running down the street. If their genuine intent was to hold him for the police, why hadn't they called the police?

They did not yell at Arbery that he was under citizen's arrest for burglary or anything else. They just yelled for him to stop, they wanted to talk to him, if he didn't stop they would blow his head off.

They did not tell the police that they thought he had committed burglary or any other specific crime. When Greg was asked why they stopped Arbery, he said it was so he could be arrested or even just identified. HE didn't say what he though Arbery might be arrested for. Just some possible crime that could have been committed (might have hurt somebody or whatever). He clearly did not know what crime, if any, had possibly been committed.

It seems clear that this was not a lawful citizen's arrest. It seems that wasn't even their intent based on their knowledge, actions and what they said they were doing at the time. They only said their intent was citizen's arrest at a later time. They never said that or anything like that to Arbery, 911, or the police (until much later). It seems their intent was to stop a 'suspicious character' to prevent him from leaving, taking away his freedom, and demanding that he answer their questions by chasing him down, running him off the road, preventing him from leaving the neighborhood, with threats to blow his head off, and coming at him with a shotgun.
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Old 6th November 2021, 07:04 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
They did not yell at Arbery that he was under citizen's arrest for burglary or anything else. They just yelled for him to stop, they wanted to talk to him, if he didn't stop they would blow his head off.
Are you trying to imply they said this? They didn't, and there's been nothing to indicate they said this.

In their defense attorneys' openings, it was made clear that no weapons were even visible to Arbery until the very end.

There is one and only one explanation for why Arbery would see neighbors noticing him in the house, see neighbors on phones calling cops, and see neighbors attempting to stop him and speak with him and react with top speed running, evading, refusal to utter a single word, and eventually a physical attack where he threw punches and tried to grab a weapon. I'll give you one guess what he'd have done to Travis and Greg if he'd gotten control of that shotgun, by the way.

That explanation is: he was an irredeemable criminal, and apparently a mentally ill man off his meds as well from what has been reported. He was self-consciously a criminal, and knew he'd been caught engaging in criminal behavior. Whether he over-estimated how much legal peril he was in or not, he clearly believed it was enough to justify bolting and even probably murdering 3 men, had he been able to pull that off.

Again, that may be a real head scratcher for some of us, but this is what the functional reality of being an amazingly stupid, impulsive criminal is.

It's actually mind-blowing that anyone would be trying to portray such a person as sympathetic in any way. It's jaw-dropping that these men are on trial.
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Old 6th November 2021, 08:20 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Are you trying to imply they said this? They didn't, and there's been nothing to indicate they said this.
I am not trying to imply it; I am straight out saying it. In opening statements, the prosecution said multiple times that they will present evidence that after the incident Gregory McMichael told police that while they were chasing Arbery he yelled at him, "Stop or I'll blow your ******* head off."

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
That explanation is: he was an irredeemable criminal, and apparently a mentally ill man off his meds as well from what has been reported. He was self-consciously a criminal, and knew he'd been caught engaging in criminal behavior. Whether he over-estimated how much legal peril he was in or not, he clearly believed it was enough to justify bolting and even probably murdering 3 men, had he been able to pull that off.
The only question is what the defendants knew at the time and whether that legally justified their actions. They clearly did not know anything other than this guy had been seen wandering around a neighbor's construction site and that he was a "black man running down the street". That does not give them any legal justification to chase him down with trucks and guns and take away his freedom and threaten him and "trap him like a rat" and come at him with a shotgun.
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Old 6th November 2021, 10:07 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I am not trying to imply it; I am straight out saying it. In opening statements, the prosecution said multiple times that they will present evidence that after the incident Gregory McMichael told police that while they were chasing Arbery he yelled at him, "Stop or I'll blow your ******* head off."
Was that not at the very end when Arbery was attacking?
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Old 6th November 2021, 11:47 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Was that not at the very end when Arbery was attacking?
No. At that point Greg was on the phone with 911. This would have been before. Greg didn't have his phone. Travis handed it to Greg when they stopped at the point where Travis killed him. That means Greg yelled this at some point early in the chase.
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Old 7th November 2021, 12:44 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Was that not at the very end when Arbery was attacking trying keep a couple of stupid ass wannabe Klans men from murdering him?
FTFY
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Old 7th November 2021, 10:09 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I am not trying to imply it; I am straight out saying it. In opening statements, the prosecution said multiple times that they will present evidence that after the incident Gregory McMichael told police that while they were chasing Arbery he yelled at him, "Stop or I'll blow your ******* head off."
Whoa. I don't recall that. Is it on 911 recordings? If so, done and done for any possible defense, I would think.

Quote:
The only question is what the defendants knew at the time and whether that legally justified their actions. They clearly did not know anything other than this guy had been seen wandering around a neighbor's construction site and that he was a "black man running down the street". That does not give them any legal justification to chase him down with trucks and guns and take away his freedom and threaten him and "trap him like a rat" and come at him with a shotgun.
Citizens arrest indeed does not apply to misdemeanors in any event, and Greg would know that without question, given his law enforcement background.

If this is true, there is no defense that I can see. Its knowingly felonious right out of the gate.
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Old 7th November 2021, 11:18 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Whoa. I don't recall that. Is it on 911 recordings? If so, done and done for any possible defense, I would think
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/05/u...statement.html

Ms. Dunikoski [prosecutor] also described in detail how the two McMichaels and the third defendant, their neighbor William Bryan, chased Mr. Arbery for five minutes as he ran through their neighborhood, trying to evade them — the McMichaels in one pickup truck and Mr. Bryan in another. She said that in the midst of the chase, Travis McMichael stopped and asked Mr. Arbery, “Where you running from? What are you doing?” Mr. Arbery ignored him.

"At some point during the pursuit, she said, Gregory McMichael, who was armed with a handgun, said to Mr. Arbery, “Stop or I’ll blow your ******* head off,” language, she said, that indicated an intent to harm Mr. Arbery, not simply talk to him.

She said that Mr. Bryan tried to hit Mr. Arbery four times with his pickup truck, at one point forcing him into a ditch.

As I see it, there are three possibilities

1. Its on the 911 audio (as you suggest)

2. Its on some of the video that has not yet been made public

3. It was made in a statement to Police by Greg McMichael after the incident

In any of these three cases, it should be a done deal, IF there are no "Good Ol' Boys" on that jury
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Old 7th November 2021, 05:15 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I'm going to sit here for a minute and be staggered by the whole deferring the opening thing.
I don't think it is a bad move in this case. The other defendants gave opening statements. That covers most of it. He can see how things go and whether he wants to throw the other clients under the bus.

Without an opening statement, the jury knows what the prosecution is trying to prove and what the McMichaels are trying to prove but not what Roddy's defense will be. They don't know what to think about that, so they not think about it much. They will concentrate on the killing and what the McMichaels knew and whether they knew enough to have a probable suspicion of a felnoy.

If he gives an opening statement, the jury is likely to consider all the defendants together. By deferring, he distances his client from the McMichaels. It become a separate issue. Even if the McMichaels are guilty, that doesn't mean that Roddy is.

Roddy joined in the chase based on what he was told by Greg. He knew there was some issue in the neighborhood about a black guy going into a house or something and some people thought he was committing some crimes. He see a black guy running down the street being chased by the McMicahels. Greg tells him some thing like, that's the guy and they are chasing him.

That is coming from a former police officer. It is reasonable that Roddy would believe they this former police officer knows what he is doing and that this is a legitimate citizen's arrest. They must have caught this guy committing some crime and have already called the police and are trying to keep him in the area until police arrive. Based on what he was told by Greg, he had a reasonable belief that they were pursing a probable felon who was trying to escape.

I think it is probably a good move to defer that type of argument.
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Old 7th November 2021, 09:08 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In any of these three cases, it should be a done deal, IF there are no "Good Ol' Boys" on that jury
If prosecution did their work there is probably little chance of a Good Ol' Boy. One can always slip through, but they should have been able to sift them out. The defense even complained about not having enough "Bubba" types in the jury pool and they ended up with mostly women (4 men and 12 women, that includes the 4 alternates, I don't think the alternates know whether or not they are alternates).

I checks the "Conservatives" sub-Reddit where people were asked about this case. Everybody there thinks he is guilty. That includes people who think Rittenhouse and Zimmerman did nothing wrong or that Arbery was a career criminal and was absolutely stealing stuff in that neighborhood. Not even any support from the "Bubba" demographic.

Roddy admitted to trying to and actually running Arbery off the road. That's going to be assault and false imprisonment and probably felony murder unless he can establish a citizen's arrest angle. Roddy will probably follow that defense I posted above. He saw a guy matching a known suspicious character being chased by his neighbors, including a former police officer. He believed they had caught him committing a crime, so he joined the chase. It is a bit sketchy to base a probable suspicion on just a neighbor saying that they are chasing a bad guy, but jurors may consider the weight of the charges in what would otherwise probably be a rather minor offense if Travis hadn't pulled the trigger. If they find him guilty on the minor charges, then it is difficult to not also find him guilty felony murder. Some may feel that is too much. Some jurors may also feel that Roddy was doing what he thought was the right thing to protect the community. He might get off.

Greg's big problem is the "blow your head off" comment. He could distance himself from Travis. Greg wasn't driving the truck. Without that statement, he could say his intent was simply to follow Arbery and ask him to stop so they could talk to him. Nothing illegal about that. What Travis did with the truck and the gun were his own decisions. But that comment turns it into assault (although perhaps not at a felony level) but also very likely false imprisonment.

Travis is doomed. He had no legal reason to do any of this. Although not technically legally relevant, the jurors are going to think about what he could have done different. Did he have to pull the trigger? Did he have to get out of the truck with the shotgun? They had eventually called the cops. Arbery was on foot and they had two trucks that could follow him around. The jurors are not going to like that. He may well get off on malice murder (I not sure there is a strong case for that) but I don't see him getting out of felony murder.
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Old 7th November 2021, 09:42 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Roddy admitted to trying to and actually running Arbery off the road. That's going to be assault and false imprisonment and probably felony murder unless he can establish a citizen's arrest angle. Roddy will probably follow that defense I posted above. He saw a guy matching a known suspicious character being chased by his neighbors, including a former police officer. He believed they had caught him committing a crime, so he joined the chase. It is a bit sketchy to base a probable suspicion on just a neighbor saying that they are chasing a bad guy, but jurors may consider the weight of the charges in what would otherwise probably be a rather minor offense if Travis hadn't pulled the trigger. If they find him guilty on the minor charges, then it is difficult to not also find him guilty felony murder. Some may feel that is too much. Some jurors may also feel that Roddy was doing what he thought was the right thing to protect the community. He might get off.

Greg's big problem is the "blow your head off" comment. He could distance himself from Travis. Greg wasn't driving the truck. Without that statement, he could say his intent was simply to follow Arbery and ask him to stop so they could talk to him. Nothing illegal about that. What Travis did with the truck and the gun were his own decisions. But that comment turns it into assault (although perhaps not at a felony level) but also very likely false imprisonment.

Travis is doomed. He had no legal reason to do any of this. Although not technically legally relevant, the jurors are going to think about what he could have done different. Did he have to pull the trigger? Did he have to get out of the truck with the shotgun? They had eventually called the cops. Arbery was on foot and they had two trucks that could follow him around. The jurors are not going to like that. He may well get off on malice murder (I not sure there is a strong case for that) but I don't see him getting out of felony murder.
What I find extraordinary is that Bryant didn't just make a deal to throw the McMichaelses under the bus. He could have come at it from the angle that he knew his neighbour was an ex-cop, therefore thought it was reasonable for him to assume what they were doing was legal, if Greg McMichaels said so.

Also, I can't see how the defence that they were trying make a citizen's arrest can possibly succeed or even be allowed as an affirmative defence.

Georgia Code § 17-4-60
A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

The thing is, the ONLY thing that Arbery had been doing was trespassing (no different to what plenty of other people had done in the weeks beforehand). Trespass in this situation, under Georgia Law is a misdemeanour, not a felony. The law is very clear about this - the suspect must be committing, or have committed a felony in order to justify pursuit and citizens arrest, and certainly not pursing the suspect with SUV's and committing vehicular assault.
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Old 7th November 2021, 10:51 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What I find extraordinary is that Bryant didn't just make a deal to throw the McMichaelses under the bus. He could have come at it from the angle that he knew his neighbour was an ex-cop, therefore thought it was reasonable for him to assume what they were doing was legal, if Greg McMichaels said so.
As I said in the posts above, I think that is coming. They will say that if the McMichaels based their pursuit of a citizen's arrest on nothing legal, that doesn't mean Roddy is guilty. He based his pursuit on what he reasonably believed was a former police officer chasing a known suspicious person and that it was reasonable for Roddy to believe that a former police officer would only be doing that if it was lawful. If Greg mischaracterized that pursuit, that is on Greg. Roddy was just doing what he thought was the right thing to legally help capture a criminal in the community.

In terms of plea deal, I don't think there was not much option. This became a big case because the DA tried to sweep this under the rug. A great deal of publicity. I think Roddy had already told all of this to police, so there wouldn't be any plea deal to give up more information. With the public pressure, the new DA would be reluctant to let him off easy.

As I said, that could backfire in terms of Roddy. In the deferred opening they could throw the McMichaels under the bus. Roddy was misled by the McMichaels into thinking this was a lawful arrest when it was not. That is on them. Roddy was just trying to do the right thing.

That may work. He was maybe was a good guy just trying to help catch a felon in the neighborhood. Frankly, if I was a juror and I heard that I would probably have reasonable doubt.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing is, the ONLY thing that Arbery had been doing was trespassing (no different to what plenty of other people had done in the weeks beforehand). Trespass in this situation, under Georgia Law is a misdemeanour, not a felony. The law is very clear about this - the suspect must be committing, or have committed a felony in order to justify pursuit and citizens arrest, and certainly not pursing the suspect with SUV's and committing vehicular assault.
It is worse than that. The McMichaels didn't even know that he was trespassing that day. They didn't witness it. According to prosecution, and not contradicted by defense, Greg did not hear anything from the neighbor pointing at Arbery running down the street. Greg said they chased him (and later said they were doing a citizen's arrest) because it looked like he was running away from something and might have hurt somebody or something.

He didn't know where Arbery came from or what he had been doing. He was just, as he said when he called 911, "a black guy is running down the street."

He did no have a probable suspicion of a felony. Or of any other crime. He didn't know he was trespassing. He didn't know anything other than Arbery had been seen wandering around the construction site and that he was now running down the street. He didn't even have knowledge of trespassing on that day.

Greg based his decision to pursue Arbery (only later claiming intent to citizen's arrest) on Arbery being filmed wandering around the site, Travis confronting him a week or two before when he was on the lawn of that site, and that he was a black guy running down the street. He had not witnessed any crime. No probable suspicion of any felony, especially on that day.

Just someone they had seen and thought was maybe suspicious of something and running down the street. So go with trucks and guns and threaten to "blow you head off" and get him "trapped like a rat" and then when trapped kill him with a shotgun. And then say "******* ******".
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Old 8th November 2021, 07:06 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The thing is, the ONLY thing that Arbery had been doing was trespassing (no different to what plenty of other people had done in the weeks beforehand). Trespass in this situation, under Georgia Law is a misdemeanour, not a felony. The law is very clear about this - the suspect must be committing, or have committed a felony in order to justify pursuit and citizens arrest, and certainly not pursing the suspect with SUV's and committing vehicular assault.
This isn't actually true, I'm afraid. You're misreading the text of the law. It is (or was at the time) entirely legal to make a citizen's arrest over a misdemeanor in Georgia. It's just that the burden of proof must be higher - the crime must occur within the arresting individual's "immediate presence or knowledge" vs merely reasonable suspicion for a felony.

(The Georgia bar states this right out if it matters - here)

Of course, any possible trespassing demonstrably did NOT occur within the McMichaels' immediate presence or knowledge, so the distinction is entirely moot, but....

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Old 8th November 2021, 07:08 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Was that not at the very end when Arbery was attacking?
Almost a year now and your entire racist argument is still "Well none of this would have happened if the black man had just passively let the white civilians do whatever they want."
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Old 8th November 2021, 07:23 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post



It is worse than that. The McMichaels didn't even know that he was trespassing that day. They didn't witness it. According to prosecution, and not contradicted by defense, Greg did not hear anything from the neighbor pointing at Arbery running down the street. Greg said they chased him (and later said they were doing a citizen's arrest) because it looked like he was running away from something and might have hurt somebody or something.

He didn't know where Arbery came from or what he had been doing. He was just, as he said when he called 911, "a black guy is running down the street."

He did no have a probable suspicion of a felony. Or of any other crime. He didn't know he was trespassing. He didn't know anything other than Arbery had been seen wandering around the construction site and that he was now running down the street. He didn't even have knowledge of trespassing on that day.

Greg based his decision to pursue Arbery (only later claiming intent to citizen's arrest) on Arbery being filmed wandering around the site, Travis confronting him a week or two before when he was on the lawn of that site, and that he was a black guy running down the street. He had not witnessed any crime. No probable suspicion of any felony, especially on that day.

Just someone they had seen and thought was maybe suspicious of something and running down the street. So go with trucks and guns and threaten to "blow you head off" and get him "trapped like a rat" and then when trapped kill him with a shotgun. And then say "******* ******".
I haven't been watching the case in real time, but if that's the case (Arbery was not even seen wandering the site on the day of the murder) I can't really see how there's any plausible chance for the accused.

If the entire premise of their chase is that they saw some black guy on some previous surveillance footage and decided to give chase to potentially the same black guy running down the street, then they are well and truly ******.

ETA: I was chastised at some point for the original thread title "running while black", but it's looking like for our killers that was literally true. If the McMichael's did not see him on the construction site the day they decided to murder him, their suspicions were primarily motivated by seeing a young black man running down the street.
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Old 8th November 2021, 07:25 AM   #186
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Again this is all a red herring.

We can argue the minutia of self defense and citizens arrest laws all we want.

We can't create a scenario outside of pure racism why one side of the encounter has the right to defend themselves but the other side didn't.

So that still leaves the side that started and continuously escalated the encounter the wrong side.

Over a year and multiple threads and the argument hasn't advanced one step beyond "Well what kind of world do we live in where three white rednecks in a pickup truck brandishing guns can't run down an unarmed black man on without them fighting back?"
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Old 8th November 2021, 07:34 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again this is all a red herring.

We can argue the minutia of self defense and citizens arrest laws all we want.

We can't create a scenario outside of pure racism why one side of the encounter has the right to defend themselves but the other side didn't.

So that still leaves the side that started and continuously escalated the encounter the wrong side.

Over a year and multiple threads and the argument hasn't advanced one step beyond "Well what kind of world do we live in where three white rednecks in a pickup truck brandishing guns can't run down an unarmed black man on without them fighting back?"
It's informative to expose the heavy lifting the good ole boy club was doing to hand-wave away a broad daylight murder.

The DA's original letter explaining why the men shouldn't be charged heavily relied on arguments of citizen's arrest. It's telling that, at the slightest bit of prodding, this story completely collapses. Arbery wandering the property on the day of the murder is a red herring as his killers seem to have been unaware of this at the time (if the prosecutor's statement is true).

It will be interesting to compare that DA letter to the facts of the case once this is all done. I imagine it will not look so good.
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Old 8th November 2021, 11:15 AM   #188
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Prosecution has been doing a great job, if you ask me. With the two witnesses I've watched so far, they've addressed the actions of each defendant individually. They haven't tried just a blanket sweep, which is what I was a bit concerned about. The officer that was\is on the stand does not look happy to be there. I think he wanted them to get off, he seems a bit frustrated when he has to read things from the transcript, etc.

I won't be able to hear much else for awhile as I have to program some antminers that are loud as hell.
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Old 8th November 2021, 11:19 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Watching the defense opening statements, I was glad that they drew attention to something which has always seemed very telling to me: the fact that Arbery never spoke a word to the McMichaels.

We heard about how he was offered an opportunity to talk / explain himself with two men who were, at that time, not obviously armed and who were both seated in the cabin of the truck at that time as well.

They were saying "Wait, we want to talk to you. Where are you coming from? What were you doing?" etc.
Your post reminds me of the film, Mars Attacks! The Martians are running around killing people while saying, "Don't run! We are your friends!"

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Old 8th November 2021, 11:22 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Was that not at the very end when Arbery was attacking?
Didn't Arbery have the right to defend himself against gun toting people trying to run him off the road with a vehicle?
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:05 PM   #191
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Quote:
Watching the defense opening statements, I was glad that they drew attention to something which has always seemed very telling to me: the fact that Arbery never spoke a word to the McMichaels.

We heard about how he was offered an opportunity to talk / explain himself with two men who were, at that time, not obviously armed and who were both seated in the cabin of the truck at that time as well.

They were saying "Wait, we want to talk to you. Where are you coming from? What were you doing?" etc.
I'm a young black man, jogging through a white neighbourhood... in Georgia.

Cletus, Bubba and Billy-Bob are chasing me - they are armed, and they have been hitting me with their their pickup trucks as they try to run me off the road..... and you think I should stop and talk to them? Really?
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:11 PM   #192
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Ah yes the mythical "Why did the black guy act like the armed white mob was a threat?" defense.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:16 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Didn't Arbery have the right to defend himself against gun toting people trying to run him off the road with a vehicle?
You'll never get an answer to that question from him. It will destroy his narrative.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:18 PM   #194
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Are you telling me the young men claiming to be "wallet inspectors" might intend to do me harm? I just don't believe it! Surely we all know it's best to just trust assertive strangers making demands of us in public. /s

Somehow I don't think Arberry had much trouble figuring out a posse of rednecks stalking him down the street didn't have anything nice in store for him.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:23 PM   #195
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Also none of the aggressors told the first officer on the scene they were making a Citizens Arrest, which would have been the first words out of my mouth had a shot someone while making a Citizens Arrest. I'd also be at least pretending to at least look like I was trying to do something that resembled basic first aid.

The "Citizens Arrest" thing is something they made up after the fact to save their asses.

Even ignoring the fact that nothing were doing meet the standards for Citizens Arrests.

So yet again we've got a dead black guy and 90% of the discussion is hairsplitting a legal definition that doesn't even apply to to what happened, just like Stand Your Ground with Zimmerman and Castle Defense with little miss Officer Tired N' Horny.

We might as well be debating whether or not you get all the money when you land on Free Parking in Monopoly. It has as much to do with the case.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:35 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Didn't Arbery have the right to defend himself against gun toting people trying to run him off the road with a vehicle?
Skeptic Tank has made it quite clear that in his racist view the black man was at fault - regardless of anything else. They will also probably say that a black person can’t live in a society with their kind of “whites”.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:41 PM   #197
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Defense is trying to get the judge to let them say the McMichael's thought that Arbury was armed, but it doesn't look like the judge is going to play along. Something about "in the interest of completeness". The volume in these two trials (Rittenhouse and this one) is completely sporadic. Next to impossible to get consistent sound.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:44 PM   #198
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I do love that (for the most part) Judges aren't too keen on letting "Alternative Universe Fan Fiction where the black guy was/could have been doing something differently" arguments that fill the internet into the courtroom.
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Old 8th November 2021, 01:49 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do love that (for the most part) Judges aren't too keen on letting "Alternative Universe Fan Fiction where the black guy was/could have been doing something differently" arguments that fill the internet into the courtroom.
Listening to more of the conversation. It looks like, if I'm getting it right, a black man that was in the area the night before stuck his hand in his pants? The judge told the defense they're going to have to try and find another way to get that in because the question is "Does Arbery have a gun?"

Which as we all know, he didn't. The judge is getting a bit frustrated with the defense at this point.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:01 PM   #200
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It's Georgia, why would it matter if Arbery was armed? Carrying a gun on a public street is 100% legal, where illegally trying to detain people and murdering them when they don't comply is not.
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