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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 8th November 2021, 02:07 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's Georgia, why would it matter if Arbery was armed? Carrying a gun on a public street is 100% legal, where illegally trying to detain people and murdering them when they don't comply is not.
Same reason Arbery doesn't have the right of self defense against the angry white mob but angry white mob has the right of self defense against him.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:12 PM   #202
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Judge had to call another recess so he could read through some transcripts. The prosecution took a jab at the defense by saying something along the lines of "we've had 3 months to get this figured out and we couldn't until now?" Not verbatim, but that's the general theme.

I knew that this was going to be more time consuming with 3 defendants but this is getting really crazy. I think I've seen more court room time without the jury in the room than with because of all of the objections.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:13 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Same reason Arbery doesn't have the right of self defense against the angry white mob but angry white mob has the right of self defense against him.
It's patent BS anyway. Nothing about their actions indicate they were fearful of Arbery. If they thought he had a gun they would not have been so keen on staying right on top of him where they might get shot.

The slow chase, vehicle strikes, and checkpoint in the road makes it quite clear that they did not think they faced much risk of meaningful retaliation to their aggression.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:15 PM   #204
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Well that's why a lot of us are so angry.

The facts are not, and never really have been, in dispute. They are guilty in their own version of events. Nothing they say about their mentality matches their actions. There's nothing to talk about. They are guilty.

In any sane world this would be a 10 minute open and shut case rubber stamped by any any random prosecutor.

But no we have to sit here while they go through there "Okay but what if I thought in my head some alternative universe series of events was happening?" checklist over and over. And just like Office "Shot First And Notice Which Apartment You Are in Later" they have to be billybadass and scawwed widdle victims at the same time in the same set of events, constantly escalated a situation they claim they were in fear of their lives during.

All after the original DA didn't even want to try them.

If Arbery HAD wrestled one of the guns away and shot one of the other 3 in self defense, he'd be in jail.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:22 PM   #205
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If it makes any difference at all Travis McMichael was visibly shaken up, per the defense. I know, Arbery is dead, but Travis was shaken up. So...you know.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:24 PM   #206
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I quite simply refuse to believe that anyone in this thread, and anyone on the prosecution team, regardless of what they may say - ACTUALLY thinks there was any sort of desire on the part of the McMichaels to end up shooting Arbery, or that they were doing any sort of "black man hunt."

I guess those sorts of things are fun to say, and get yourself worked up into some righteous SJW frenzy or whatever, but I don't think there's any way anyone actually believes it.

Likewise, nobody actually believes Ahmaud was just out jogging, innocently wandered into the construction site, bolted as a way of resuming his jog, and refused to stop, interact with, or speak with the McMichaels because he either felt "they've got no right to interrupt my jog, or expect me to talk to them" or due to thinking they were racist KKKlanzmen on the hunt, intending to kill him.

Literally everyone with any sort of functioning brain, from prosecutor to forum poster, is fully aware that he was a habitual criminal who ran and refused to interact because of being that, and having the mindset of that.

When people talk about it in any way that doesn't openly and directly acknowledge that, it always has the flavor of "well sure, maybe he was... but the McMichaels didn't know that for sure! And how dare they be so racist, assume so much, and dare to act on their assumptions? The fact that their appraisal of Arbery was 100% accurate just makes it worse, if anything!"

Your beef isn't with the McMichaels. Your beef is with reality and the frustrating tendency it has to confirm / conform to stereotypes.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:24 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I quite simply refuse to believe that anyone in this thread, and anyone on the prosecution team, regardless of what they may say - ACTUALLY thinks there was any sort of desire on the part of the McMichaels to end up shooting Arbery, or that they were doing any sort of "black man hunt."

I guess those sorts of things are fun to say, and get yourself worked up into some righteous SJW frenzy or whatever, but I don't think there's any way anyone actually believes it.

Likewise, nobody actually believes Ahmaud was just out jogging, innocently wandered into the construction site, bolted as a way of resuming his jog, and refused to stop, interact with, or speak with the McMichaels because he either felt "they've got no right to interrupt my jog, or expect me to talk to them" or due to thinking they were racist KKKlanzmen on the hunt, intending to kill him.

Literally everyone with any sort of functioning brain, from prosecutor to forum poster, is fully aware that he was a habitual criminal who ran and refused to interact because of being that, and having the mindset of that.

When people talk about it in any way that doesn't openly and directly acknowledge that, it always has the flavor of "well sure, maybe he was... but the McMichaels didn't know that for sure! And how dare they be so racist, assume so much, and dare to act on their assumptions? The fact that their appraisal of Arbery was 100% accurate just makes it worse, if anything!"

Your beef isn't with the McMichaels. Your beef is with reality and the frustrating tendency it has to confirm / conform to stereotypes.
Pathetic.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:29 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Same reason Arbery doesn't have the right of self defense against the angry white mob but angry white mob has the right of self defense against him.
A couple of men who live in a neighborhood you don't live in, that you are visiting (whether for a "jog" or not - and in this case, it was NOT) - and in which you have made repeated dead-of-night visits to a house under construction in, approaching you and asking you what you're doing there - is not something from which you "defend yourself."

A man charging you and punching you, trying to take your firearm away, IS something which you defend yourself from.

Much like a man keeping an eye on you from a distance in a neighborhood you are visiting, while talking to police on his cell phone, or even approaching and confronting you (which didn't happen) is not something from which you "defend yourself" - but a man straddling you and bashing your head into pavement is.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:30 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
A couple of men who live in a neighborhood you don't live in, that you are visiting (whether for a "jog" or not - and in this case, it was NOT) - and in which you have made repeated dead-of-night visits to a house under construction in, approaching you and asking you what you're doing there - is not something from which you "defend yourself."

A man charging you and punching you, trying to take your firearm away, IS something which you defend yourself from.

Much like a man keeping an eye on you from a distance in a neighborhood you are visiting, while talking to police on his cell phone, or even approaching and confronting you (which didn't happen) is not something from which you "defend yourself" - but a man straddling you and bashing your head into pavement is.
Pathetic.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:36 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Pathetic.
Agreed.

I will have to continue to aspire to your high level of well thought out, detailed response.

Stellar. Humbling to behold.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:41 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I quite simply refuse to believe that anyone in this thread, and anyone on the prosecution team, regardless of what they may say - ACTUALLY thinks there was any sort of desire on the part of the McMichaels to end up shooting Arbery, or that they were doing any sort of "black man hunt."
So simply refuse it. I don't think anyone really cares. That's part of the problem with waiving your racism flag every opportunity you get. Those who have interacted with you just don't take your arguments with any credibility when it comes to racial tensions.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I guess those sorts of things are fun to say, and get yourself worked up into some righteous SJW frenzy or whatever, but I don't think there's any way anyone actually believes it.
Loudly spouting racism might be fun to say, and get oneself worked up into some righteous "White people are better than PoC" frenzy, or whatever, but I don't think there's any way anyone actually believes it.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Likewise, nobody actually believes Ahmaud was just out jogging, innocently wandered into the construction site,
You mean like dozens of other people who had been shown on camera doing the same thing over the weeks the camera was setup in the house? Yeah, how could anyone believe that?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
bolted as a way of resuming his jog,
Huh?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
and refused to stop, interact with, or speak with the McMichaels because he either felt "they've got no right to interrupt my jog, or expect me to talk to them" or due to thinking they were racist KKKlanzmen on the hunt, intending to kill him.
How about if I were to retort with, "He had absolutely no ******* responsibility or requirement to talk to them at all, for any reason"? How would that suit you? No one owed the McRacist's any explanation of anything. It wasn't their house, it wasn't their property, and they weren't an authority. That's the actual point.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Literally everyone with any sort of functioning brain,


Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
from prosecutor to forum poster, is fully aware that he was a habitual criminal who ran and refused to interact because of being that, and having the mindset of that.
But nah, though. Anyone with a functional brain can see that a group of racist dummies got themselves in trouble for hunting down a black man for no reason at all. If you'd watched the trial, you'd know that the honkies had absolutely no idea where Arbery had been, where he was coming from, going to, or anything.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
When people talk about it in any way that doesn't openly and directly acknowledge that, it always has the flavor of "well sure, maybe he was... but the McMichaels didn't know that for sure at all! And how dare they be so racist, assume so much, and dare to act on their assumptions? The fact that their appraisal of Arbery was 100% accurate just makes it worse, if anything!"
FTFY. Being a criminal in his past has nothing to do with the day of his death. That's one of the points of the trial. Any crime he'd done he had already served (was serving? I'm not sure if he was on any form of probation or parole) any punishment he'd received for said crimes.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Your beef isn't with the McMichaels. Your beef is with reality and the frustrating tendency it has to confirm / conform to stereotypes.
Well, you're partially right. There is a stereotype that has been conformed to here. Some good ol' country white boys decided they was going to hassle themselves a black person, they did, they ended up killing him. Just like we've seen and heard of for years. The only difference, and the part that sucks for racists like you and the McMichaels, is that now it's getting caught on camera. The real kicker here is that they're the ones that kicked their own ass by recording it lol.
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Last edited by plague311; 8th November 2021 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:44 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Agreed.

I will have to continue to aspire to your high level of well thought out, detailed response.

Stellar. Humbling to behold.
Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:45 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
A couple of men who live in a neighborhood you don't live in, that you are visiting (whether for a "jog" or not - and in this case, it was NOT) - and in which you have made repeated dead-of-night visits to a house under construction in, approaching you and asking you what you're doing there - is not something from which you "defend yourself."

A man charging you and punching you, trying to take your firearm away, IS something which you defend yourself from.

Much like a man keeping an eye on you from a distance in a neighborhood you are visiting, while talking to police on his cell phone, or even approaching and confronting you (which didn't happen) is not something from which you "defend yourself" - but a man straddling you and bashing your head into pavement is.
I suppose the evidence showing that they struck Arbery with a truck prior to the fatal confrontation doesn't really fit too neatly into this concerned citizen narrative.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:49 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
How about if I were to retort with, "He had absolutely no ******* responsibility or requirement to talk to them at all, for any reason"? How would that suit you? No one owed the McRacist's any explanation of anything. It wasn't their house, it wasn't their property, and they weren't an authority. That's the actual point.
K, stipulated.

He had no legal requirement to interact with them or answer their questions, or stop for them.

(Now, I don't know that this is actually true given the citizen's arrest laws as they existed at that time, but I'm prepared to agree to it being true regardless - for the sake of discussion.)

Alright, so now with that established... that he wasn't REQUIRED to do it, what do you actually believe to be the reason that he didn't?

Because you and I both know that an innocent person would, in basically 100% of cases, stop and at least have some sort of discussion. Tell them to F off, tell them in some sort of way that they've misunderstood the situation, or misidentified him, etc. Many, many people would even go so far as to say "sure, by all means, can't wait til the cops get here. You're going to be feeling pretty stupid when they do."

Hell, even most guilty parties would do some of that.

So who just keeps running, makes no response, dodges around cars, and eventually lunges, punches, and grabs for a gun?

There's really only one explanation I can think of for that behavior. I'd be curious if you have another one in mind.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:50 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Some good ol' country white boys decided they was going to hassle themselves a black person have themselves a lynchin' ..... The only difference is, , and the part that sucks for racists like you and the McMichaels, is that now it's getting caught on camera. The real kicker here is that they're the ones that kicked their own ass by recording it lol they used pickup trucks and guns instead of horses and rope.
FTFY
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:52 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
K, stipulated.

He had no legal requirement to interact with them or answer their questions, or stop for them.

(Now, I don't know that this is actually true given the citizen's arrest laws as they existed at that time, but I'm prepared to agree to it being true regardless - for the sake of discussion.)

Alright, so now with that established... that he wasn't REQUIRED to do it, what do you actually believe to be the reason that he didn't?

Because you and I both know that an innocent person would, in basically 100% of cases, stop and at least have some sort of discussion. Tell them to F off, tell them in some sort of way that they've misunderstood the situation, or misidentified him, etc. Many, many people would even go so far as to say "sure, by all means, can't wait til the cops get here. You're going to be feeling pretty stupid when they do."

Hell, even most guilty parties would do some of that.

So who just keeps running, makes no response, dodges around cars, and eventually lunges, punches, and grabs for a gun?

There's really only one explanation I can think of for that behavior. I'd be curious if you have another one in mind.
"He acted guilty so he needed killing" isn't in the legal system. Try again.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:54 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's Georgia, why would it matter if Arbery was armed? Carrying a gun on a public street is 100% legal, where illegally trying to detain people and murdering them when they don't comply is not.
Maybe they should have claimed it was suspicious because he wasn't armed. Obviously that meant he had some sort of fatal surprised planned so they had no choice but to kill...
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:56 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"He acted guilty so he needed killing" isn't in the legal system. Try again.
I mean, not officially, but I think this is the motto of several police unions.
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Old 8th November 2021, 02:58 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"He acted guilty so he needed killing" isn't in the legal system. Try again.
I'm not saying "he acted guilty, so he needed killing."

I'm saying that his behavior, as well as his criminal record, blasts a massive hole in all the narratives that have fueled the outrage about this since the story first broke. All those narratives have centered around him being an innocent jogger, mistakenly perceived as a criminal / burglar based on nothing but his skin color, and shot down in the street for no reason.

That's all (as usual, with all such cases) 100% nonsense.
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Old 8th November 2021, 03:00 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
K, stipulated.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
He had no legal requirement to interact with them or answer their questions, or stop for them.
I know, that's what I said.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
(Now, I don't know that this is actually true given the citizen's arrest laws as they existed at that time, but I'm prepared to agree to it being true regardless - for the sake of discussion.)
Even as they were at the time, Arbery had absolutely no responsibility to speak with them at all. Watch the trial. The defense isn't even arguing it. The honkies were not police doing an active investigation. Again, I don't know why you won't acknowledge this, they had no idea that Arbery had entered the property. To the best of their knowledge at the time Arbery hadn't even trespassed.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Alright, so now with that established... that he wasn't REQUIRED to do it, what do you actually believe to be the reason that he didn't?
I don't give a ****, to be perfectly honest. I'm talking about a court case where people are on trial for a crime. I'm not going to help write your fanfic for you.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Because you and I both know that an innocent person would, in basically 100% of cases, stop and at least have some sort of discussion.
Haha I sure as hell wouldn't for a myriad of reasons. Guilty or not. First and foremost because I don't have any need to tell them anything. Also, if they were cops, the first rule of talking to cops is NOT TO TALK TO THE COPS.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Tell them to F off,
Why escalate a situation needlessly? That would be dumb.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
tell them in some sort of way that they've misunderstood the situation,
It's none of their business. As mentioned, what situation could they have misunderstood? They had no idea where Arbery had come from or where was he going? What should he say they misunderstood? That he was actually white?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
or misidentified him, etc.
Arbery should tell the men that they've misidentified him? When they're saying they're going to blow his head off? Who would he say they SHOULD be looking for?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Many, many people would even go so far as to say "sure, by all means, can't wait til the cops get here. You're going to be feeling pretty stupid when they do."
Yeah, that works out well for black people all the time. Or he could have, you know, gone about his business without bothering anyone like he had been doing the whole time? The McMichael's didn't even call the ******* cops until late in the game. If the McMichael's were telling the truth, why didn't they call the cops to begin with? Take a wild guess.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Hell, even most guilty parties would do some of that.
As a convicted felon, I'm calling complete ********. I will never talk to anyone again under any circumstances until my lawyer is present.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So who just keeps running, makes no response, dodges around cars, and eventually lunges, punches, and grabs for a gun?
Someone who is being chased, has nothing to say, is being hit with said cars, doesn't want to get shot, is defending himself, and doesn't want to get shot. Respectfully.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
There's really only one explanation I can think of for that behavior. I'd be curious if you have another one in mind.
All of the things I said. You're a racist, that's why you have only one explanation because anything beyond his skin color means nothing to you. You'll make any loose connections you possibly can as long as it makes him look guilty.
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Old 8th November 2021, 03:15 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
All of the things I said. You're a racist, that's why you have only one explanation because anything beyond his skin color means nothing to you. You'll make any loose connections you possibly can as long as it makes him look guilty.
I still don't believe anyone other than a criminal who was 100% focused on trying to run and get away before cops showed up, would go into a blank faced, zero communication, eyes forward running mode and then a burst of violence when presented with a target on foot rather than in a vehicle.

I think that when you say you literally wouldn't give any sort of response, that's just simply not true. Sorry, but I don't believe you. You would absolutely, as would almost anyone, have some sort of discussion with them. It might be dismissive, it might be polite or confused or tailored to de-escalate, or maybe tailored to make them feel foolish, or whatever. There are a lot of forms it could take, but it would take some form. It would take place. There would be words exchanged.

For you to claim you would exchange no words whatsoever, is simply not believable. I'd appreciate if you were to admit that.

Regardless, I laughed at your fan fic comment. That was quite good.

And yes, I am a racist, but I still care about the particulars. My racism, after all, was born from evidence and observation. It did not come naturally nor swiftly to me. I still have substantially more years as an SJW type under my belt, during my life, than I do with these sorts of views.

I'm not so "racist" as to be the kind of person who'd cheer if the McMichaels had shotgun blasted an 85 year old black granny walking down the street with the aid of her cane.

A lot more than just being black is relevant here to my assessment of Arbery.

Hell, even if he were still the same 25 year old black male with the same criminal record, and he had done everything exactly the same UP UNTIL the final minutes, and instead had launched into a curse laden "F off, crackas! ain't none yo bidness!" type outburst toward them.

If they had simply shot him down cold blooded in the street because they didn't like his attitude, and he mouthed off to them, even I would not sign off on that.

I'd totally want them to get like... 5 hours community service? Maybe?

Just kidding.

Seriously, something like what I just described above would NEED TO BE what happened in order for a narrative of "racist lynching, hunted down in the street" to be true.

That narrative simply doesn't fit the facts. These men believed he was a criminal, tried to stop him and hold him for police, and he attacked them.
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Old 8th November 2021, 03:20 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Because you and I both know that an innocent person would, in basically 100% of cases, stop and at least have some sort of discussion.
No. Any rational person is not going to stop to have a chat with people who are chasing them with a vehicle. That is something only a stupid person would do.

Are you trying to tell me that if three black men with guns were trying to run you down in their pickup, you would stop to chat with them?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
So who just keeps running, makes no response, dodges around cars, and eventually lunges, punches, and grabs for a gun?
Anyone who is trying to get away from lunatics with guns trying to run them down with a truck.
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Old 8th November 2021, 04:20 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I quite simply refuse to believe...
Argument from incredulity noted.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Likewise, nobody actually believes...
Projection of incredulity noted.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Literally everyone with any sort of functioning brain...
Unwarranted generalization from personal inexperience noted.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
There's really only one explanation I can think of for that behavior.
Argument from personal decision to ignore alternative explanations noted.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
And yes, I am a racist...
Belated acknowledgement of alternative explanation noted.
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Old 8th November 2021, 04:25 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

That narrative simply doesn't fit the facts. These men believed he was a criminal, tried to stop him and hold him for police, and he attacked them.
Ah yes, makes one wonder what their endgame was supposed to look like after they got out of their vehicle. I suppose they were going to run after him "Looney Tunes" style with shotgun in hand?

What do you think was supposed to happen when they got out of their vehicle and stepped in Arbery's path with guns at the ready?
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Old 8th November 2021, 04:29 PM   #225
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What I want to know is where do all the people who think the exact same thing as Skeptic Tank and openly admit to believing in the same narrative but just keep the racism in the subtext instead of the text disappear off to whenever he decides to turn the thread into Stormfront for a few pages.
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Old 8th November 2021, 06:09 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Ah yes, makes one wonder what their endgame was supposed to look like after they got out of their vehicle. I suppose they were going to run after him "Looney Tunes" style with shotgun in hand?

What do you think was supposed to happen when they got out of their vehicle and stepped in Arbery's path with guns at the ready?
I think their expectation was that he'd finally stop and await the arrival of police.

They failed to anticipate just how impulsive, violent, dangerous, and stupid Arbery was. In other words, they ended up in the awful position they're in now, due to insufficient racism.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What I want to know is where do all the people who think the exact same thing as Skeptic Tank and openly admit to believing in the same narrative but just keep the racism in the subtext instead of the text disappear off to whenever he decides to turn the thread into Stormfront for a few pages.
Who are these brilliant posters? I'd like to know what posts to look out for.
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Old 8th November 2021, 06:55 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What do you think was supposed to happen when they got out of their vehicle and stepped in Arbery's path with guns at the ready?
The ******-boy stops, puts up his hands and says "Yez mazzah" ?
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Old 8th November 2021, 11:09 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I think their expectation was that he'd finally stop and await the arrival of police.
That's cute. He doesn't stop because he doesn't have to. Now what?
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Old 9th November 2021, 12:34 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
That's cute. He doesn't stop because he doesn't have to. Now what?
Well, what sort of obligations to stop did the citizen's arrest law at that time bring with it? None, under any circumstances?

What sort of obligations to stop did wisdom, desire to contribute to a functioning society, and self-preservation instinct bring with them? None? Okay, well... he's dead.

I'd be more sympathetic to the argument that he had no obligation whatsoever to account for himself to anyone, if it were the case that the McMichaels were just totally off base. If he really had just been jogging innocently, and had no criminal record, and wasn't the same guy captured on camera in the house previously, etc. --- but none of that is the case. They were spot on correct about him.

I would DEFINITELY be way more sympathetic to any arguments about him having no obligations to explain himself, if he'd just kept running, or sat down and silently awaited police, refusing to speak to the three guys, instead of lunging, punching, and grabbing hold of the shotgun.
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Old 9th November 2021, 12:40 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Judge had to call another recess so he could read through some transcripts. The prosecution took a jab at the defense by saying something along the lines of "we've had 3 months to get this figured out and we couldn't until now?" Not verbatim, but that's the general theme.

I knew that this was going to be more time consuming with 3 defendants but this is getting really crazy. I think I've seen more court room time without the jury in the room than with because of all of the objections.
This is a very difficult case from that perspective because it involves multiple co-defendants and that evidence is largely things they said on bodycams and police statements while talking about each other. These long objections are due to Bruton issues.

Bruton was a Supreme Court case where Evans were co-defendants. Evans had made statements that were essentially a confession that he and Bruton committed the crime and what they both did. Both pleaded not guilty. The full confession was allowed into evidence. (In a surprising twist, the conviction of Evans was allowed to stand while the conviction of Bruton was reversed, which seems contradictory, but it is a complicated and fascinating and strange case that would take a dissertation explain why that happened.)

The bottom line from Bruton is that out-of-court statements from a co-defendant about another co-defendant are not allowed. Under the 6th Amendment a defendant has a right to cross examination.

A statement about what somebody else about the truth of a matter is hearsay. Hearsay can be permitted in some cases. In this type of case would would normally be permitted if the person is subject to cross examination. A person who is on record saying "John shot him" has problems without cross-examination. Maybe they said that because Bill told them that but they didn't actually see it. Or that was just an opinion. Or they meant to say Jim but got the names mixed up. Or they were talking about someone else named John. And so on. Without cross-examination we don't know this so it is hearsay that cannot be evidence.

The problem with Bruton is that with co-defendants who made statements on bodycams or to police that are relevant and not hearsay to their own charges, but could be hearsay in regards to other co-defendants. Those hearsay statement might normally be allowed, but only if cross-examination is available. Because they are also defendants, they have the right to remain silent and therefore cannot be required for cross-examination. That means those statements are not allowable as hearsay.

The Supreme Court ruled that giving instructions to the jury to consider evidence for one defendant while ignoring when considering another defendant is an unreasonable expectation. And that this type of evidence can only be presented if it is properly redacted to excludes these type of hearsay violations.

In this case, evidence is mostly bodycam videos and police statements that has to meet the Bruton rule. That means they can't just show the bodycam and police reports. They can bring in the cop with the body cam and give him a transcript and ask him questions and ask him to read part of that transcript. But not everything.

That makes this very difficult and frustrating. And results in all these long objections. It is difficult and messy and time consuming, but that is what needs to be done to protect people's rights and get a fair trial.
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Old 9th November 2021, 01:21 AM   #231
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The judge seems to be very good and fair in this case, but I think he totally failed on the question of, "How many times did Bryan say he blocked Arbery?"

It was asked by the prosecution and immediately objected to by the defense as ambiguous. I was very surprised that the judge allowed it, and then not surprised by the result. That is basically a textbook example of an ambiguous question. It could mean how many times he said something about blocking, or whether he said how many times he did blocking, or whether he said multiple times about blocking that might be multiple instance of blocking that are less than the instances of blocking.

I have no idea why the judge allowed this. It resulted in long questioning and confusion. The answer still isn't even clear.

This is a textbook example of an ambiguous question. Is it how many times he did it based on what he said? Or did he say how many times he did it? Or based on what he said how many times he did it?

I think the defense and the prosecution and the judge all failed. I still don't know the answer to that question. The only conclusion I can make is that is was at least two (because they were on different streets) and up to five.

Prosecution did not do well on this issue.
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Old 9th November 2021, 07:46 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I still don't believe anyone other than a criminal who was 100% focused on trying to run and get away before cops showed up, would go into a blank faced, zero communication, eyes forward running mode and then a burst of violence when presented with a target on foot rather than in a vehicle.
Burst of violence? He took every possible evasive measure before having no other option but to fight back. He tried flight already. That's human instinct, not your weird mind reading.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
For you to claim you would exchange no words whatsoever, is simply not believable. I'd appreciate if you were to admit that.
Admitting that would be a lie, because I wouldn't. Again, he has nothing to say to them because they have no right to engage him. There's no reason at to talk to them.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
And yes, I am a racist, but I still care about the particulars. My racism, after all, was born from evidence and observation. It did not come naturally nor swiftly to me. I still have substantially more years as an SJW type under my belt, during my life, than I do with these sorts of views.

That narrative simply doesn't fit the facts. These men believed he was a criminal, tried to stop him and hold him for police, and he attacked them.
All of your racism is why we don't have a lot more to discuss.

Either way, no matter what you believe about Arbery, these guys are going to prison for a long, long time. Racism got them in trouble, it's going to cost them their freedom for the rest of their lives. As it should.
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Old 9th November 2021, 07:56 AM   #233
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The prosecution is pretty much hammering the fact that the McMichael's had no idea where Arbery was coming from, what he was doing, or anything other than he was running "at full speed". That's it. They pursued him for no other reason at all. Just because he was running.
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:38 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The prosecution is pretty much hammering the fact that the McMichael's had no idea where Arbery was coming from, what he was doing, or anything other than he was running "at full speed". That's it. They pursued him for no other reason at all. Just because he was running.
You mean - apart from him being guilty of being black.
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:38 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

I would DEFINITELY be way more sympathetic to any arguments about him having no obligations to explain himself, if he'd just kept running, or sat down and silently awaited police, refusing to speak to the three guys, instead of lunging, punching, and grabbing hold of the shotgun.
The trying to grab the weapon came after they'd made comments about blowing his head off, trying to ram him with their vehicle and then roadblocked him and stepped outside the vehicle in an armed barricade style though, right? I think we can excuse him if he was a tad bit worried for his mortal being at that point.

I find it bewildering you think the standard state of affairs should be that someone should just stop when another citizen demands it. If that person doesn't stop, it justifies the events above. Craziness.
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:39 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
The trying to grab the weapon came after they'd made comments about blowing his head, trying to ram him with their vehicle and then roadblocked him and stepped outside the vehicle in an armed barricade style though, right? I think we can excuse him if he was a tad bit worried for his mortal being at that point.

I find it bewildering you think the standard state of affairs should be that someone should just stop when another citizen demands it. If that person doesn't stop, it justifies the events above. Craziness.
Of course. All we have to do is imagine the frothing at the mouth racist outrage that would be spewing from him if a few black people decided to "citizens arrest" the 3 men for murder.
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:41 AM   #237
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This is OT.

Racism is fun. Hatred feels good. You can focus all your life's anger, frustration, and failure on people you don't know or have to confront. Indulging our worst traits is, let's face it, enjoyable.

But it requires a peculiar sort of self-discipline. The racist must keep his mind small. Ignorance is his strength. So is stupidity: he must reject thought, he must only ruminate on the same few notions that support his little racialist hut. In particular, I think, he must concentrate on images rather than on narratives; visual stereotypes are easy to hate.

Does that sound like anyone we know?
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:45 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Of course. All we have to do is imagine the frothing at the mouth racist outrage that would be spewing from him if a few black people decided to "citizens arrest" the 3 men for murder.
In hypothetical, fanfic world it would have been very interesting if that had actually happened. A couple of passing black guys in a car, seeing the shooting, got out, tried to CA the white guys and then shot them as they made a move. The mental knots that would have to be tied to justify Aubreys shooting whilst condemning the killing of the McMichaels would've made for a good read.
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Old 9th November 2021, 08:46 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
This is OT.

Racism is fun. Hatred feels good. You can focus all your life's anger, frustration, and failure on people you don't know or have to confront. Indulging our worst traits is, let's face it, enjoyable.

But it requires a peculiar sort of self-discipline. The racist must keep his mind small. Ignorance is his strength. So is stupidity: he must reject thought, he must only ruminate on the same few notions that support his little racialist hut. In particular, I think, he must concentrate on images rather than on narratives; visual stereotypes are easy to hate.

Does that sound like anyone we know?
I've said it before but even beyond how vile it is modern racisms just seems so tiring to me.

Like, and Lord I hope I can phrase this the right way, I can "get," not agree with, not condone, but "get" easy racism, being racist when it's the path of least resistant and requires no effort.

But modern racists, the troll-racists, the "I'm both racist AND I want that to be a problem." "Yeah I'm racist, bet that will get a reaction out of you, dare you to knock this chip off my shoulder" types where their racism is turned into their second jobs... like that's just weird.

Like just go yell the N-word on Xbox Live. You're not only racist you're massively inefficient.
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Old 9th November 2021, 09:09 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

[...]

I would DEFINITELY be way more sympathetic to any arguments about him having no obligations to explain himself, if he'd just kept running, or sat down and silently awaited police, refusing to speak to the three guys, instead of lunging, punching, and grabbing hold of the shotgun.
You're dodging the question. What was Travis' great plan when he stepped out of the car with shotgun in hand?

a) Make Arbery stop by threatening him with the shotgun?

b) Try to physically detain him with shotgun in hand?

c) Run after him with shotgun in hand?

Pretty sure all of those push the matter into felony murder territory.

You've spent so much time trying to read Arbery's mind and guess his motivations, but you're ignoring the actions of the people who acted like complete madmen all the way through.
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