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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 12th November 2021, 08:19 AM   #281
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The prosecution made it clear that the detective on the stand was named in a lawsuit by the Arbery's. I don't know if it's because of the way he was talking on the video, or it was just a blanket sweep of everyone involved in the case that got put on the civil suit.

It's the first time I've heard her mention it.
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Old 12th November 2021, 08:27 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I'm starting to feel like maybe even the prime strategy of Roddie's lawyer is to win on appeal. That's what all the motions for mistrial and weird objections about the number of "Bubbas" in the jury pool and "black pastors" in the courtroom and so on are all about. He's just coming up with anything that he can later use on appeal.
I doubt primary, but it is good case prep to identify potential issues for appeal and build a record to support those. US law is such that a jury verdict is given religious level deference post conviction, so arguing jury selection was unfair is one of the better issues to develop.

I'm curious as to whether there was a pre-trial motion to sever defendants. If so I could see defendants trying to sow chaos as being part of that so on appeal they can have a ton of examples of how trying everyone together violated their rights to an effective defense.

Making appeal the primary defense is bad for two reasons. First, appellate courts are fickle. Second, most successful appeals still allow for a new trial so the significance of winning an appeal depends on the state's desire to prosecute and the effect the legal ruling would have on their ability to prosecute,
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Old 12th November 2021, 11:05 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Important to know whether it is one or 2 drops!
Is it to allow the claim that the white guy in the video is actually Arbery?

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Old 12th November 2021, 11:18 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Is it to allow the claim that the white guy in the video is actually Arbery?
If it were it would be extremely stupid. The white guy damn near glows. We're talking white, white.

Think Michael Jackson in "Billie Jean" vs. Michael Jackson in "Black or White".

It's not at all comparable.
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Old 12th November 2021, 12:06 PM   #285
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GBI agent reading from the interview with Ronnie.

The agent asked Ronnie why he wanted to slow him down. Ronnie basically said because he felt that Arbery had done something wrong. When asked why he thought that he said, "It was just instinct, man."

Every time the prosecution looks at the origin of this day, it comes back to the McMichael's and Ronnie knowing nothing about why they were chasing him. They just were.
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Old 12th November 2021, 01:28 PM   #286
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Ronnie's lawyer is getting his ass handed to him trying to cross this GBI agent. I don't think this Gough(?) is a very good lawyer.
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Old 12th November 2021, 03:45 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If we're being honest, the only realistic outcome in this case is that they're guilty of murder. I haven't watched every single moment, but I've definitely watched enough. There's no way these guys aren't guilty of murder.
I can't even come up with a hypothetical in which it's not murder.
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Old 12th November 2021, 05:06 PM   #288
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The most realistic outcome? Hung jury with 2 good ol' boys refusing to convict someone for killing one of "those people".
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Old 12th November 2021, 06:17 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The prosecution made it clear that the detective on the stand was named in a lawsuit by the Arbery's. I don't know if it's because of the way he was talking on the video, or it was just a blanket sweep of everyone involved in the case that got put on the civil suit.
That's usually the case. Blame everyone and let the jury decide individual responsibility, otherwise the defendant can just blame someone unavailable to defend themselves.
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Old 12th November 2021, 08:46 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ronnie's lawyer is getting his ass handed to him trying to cross this GBI agent. I don't think this Gough(?) is a very good lawyer.
He is a bit of a weird egg. He seems to like paying legal games. I am not accusing him of anything, but it has crossed my mind that making a controversial statement about black pastors could trigger some event that results in a mistrial or a later appeal. Or maybe it puts that story in the media where it might come up on a juror's phone and it comes out later they didn't tell the judge and becomes grounds for appeal. I do recall all that hubbub from the defense about wanting the judge to ask the jurors every day whether anything had happened in regards to seeing anything or talking with anyone about the case and their concerns that he was having the sheriff take care of that and all their issues with that.

I also find it odd that he handles different witnesses very differently. The first day I thought he seemed very defense and accusatory and petty arguing over the specific meaning of things like where "a few seconds" mean only 3-4 seconds or whether to could mean 45 seconds and what exact timeframe is covered by "in the moments before" the shooting. I understand why clarification of those things is going to be important to the defense, but he could have got that through clarification rather than accusations.

Yesterday he was rather cooperative and not arguing objections with the witness across the street. Today with Seacrist he is very laid back and speaking slowly and quietly, but definitely pushing a narrative to the edge of the boundary of what is allowed in terms of lines of questioning and forms of questions.

I wonder if that could backfire with the jury and they find that he comes across like he is putting on act. Being deceptive. Because I think he does put on n act. He sometimes takes on a persona of a bumbling country bumpkin lawyer, but I think he is much more wily than that.

For example, being accusatory with the first witness could have been strategic. He needed to get clarification on some minor phrases that would probably be considered irrelevant to the jury, especially since he hasn't made his opening statement.

During trial there are lots of seemingly meaningless questions because prosecution has to prove all kinds of things that don't really come up but have to be brought up like establishing that Arbery was person and that this happened in the State of Georgia and they aren't just saying it did. Things that are just slamming doors on a possible argument of not proving all the elements or reasonable doubt. Those things are really technicalities that have to be done rather than what they want the jury to consider. And establishing authority for certain actions and chain of command and so on.

Related to that is the the issue with foundation. It is objectionable for counsel to ask a witness a question unless it has been established that the witness has personal knowledge to be able to answer the question. For example, they want a witness to testify that they saw a gun in John's living room. They first have to establish that they know who John is, that they aren't talking about someone else named John, that they know this this was John's house and didn't just assume that because they were at a party there once and it seemed like his house, and that they know where the living room is, and that they were in a position to look into the living, and that they weren't just told by somewhere there that there was a gun in the living, or that someone brought a gun into another room and said they found it in the living room, and so on. That means asking a lot of questions about how they met John and how long they knew him and how often they were at his house and what they know about the layout of the house and why they were in or looking into the living room, and what it looked like and so on. A bunch of questions that are basically irrelevant to the jury but have to be asked to establish foundation.

With all these seemingly meaningless questions, Roddie's lawyer wants the jury to pay attention to what appears to be meaningless questions, especially from the beginning of the trial. Approaching these questions in an accusatory manner might not make the jury like him, but it will keep it in the minds of the jurors. They will remember questioning whether the cop was lying or not, and questioning why this lawyer is making such a big deal about these vague phrases. It doesn't make friends, but it does make jurors remember these important things and get them thinking about them even if they don't yet know why they should be doing that.
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Old 12th November 2021, 09:03 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I doubt primary, but it is good case prep to identify potential issues for appeal and build a record to support those. US law is such that a jury verdict is given religious level deference post conviction, so arguing jury selection was unfair is one of the better issues to develop.

I'm curious as to whether there was a pre-trial motion to sever defendants. If so I could see defendants trying to sow chaos as being part of that so on appeal they can have a ton of examples of how trying everyone together violated their rights to an effective defense.

Making appeal the primary defense is bad for two reasons. First, appellate courts are fickle. Second, most successful appeals still allow for a new trial so the significance of winning an appeal depends on the state's desire to prosecute and the effect the legal ruling would have on their ability to prosecute,
I was joking a bit about it being a primary defense. Of course it isn't. But he sure seems to be going out of his way to create anything at all that could create a possible appeal. Some of his motions have been just for Roddie and not joined by the other defendants. If he can get Roddie's conviction reversed while the McMichael's are serving long prison sentences, there won't been nearly the public pressure on the DA for action and a much better chance for a sweet plea deal, and would at least give Roddie a second chance at trial.
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Old 12th November 2021, 10:43 PM   #292
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Here is where I think Roddie's lawyer is going with his defense:

No proof beyond a reasonable doubt of aggravated assault or attempted aggravated assault. There is no evidence that he used his truck to in a manner that "is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury" (16-5-21(a)(2), which is really the only relevant subsection here). We don't know if the truck ran into Arbery or Arbery ran into the truck. A dent that we don't know was there before. White fibers that might or might not be from Arbery's shirt. A hand print. But Roddie said Arbery was trying to get in his truck. No evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he ran into Arbery with his truck.

He said he was trying to "block him" by "angling at him" but never said he intentionally drove his truck at Arbery or that he was trying to hit him or run him over or anything like that. Nothing that was likely to cause serious bodily injury. No proven attempt to do so.

For false imprisonment, I think he will play up the common meaning of "imprisonment" rather than the legal meaning. False imprisonment (as is relevant to his case) is someone "in violation of the personal liberty of another, he arrests, confines, or detains such person without legal authority." I think defense will push the commo meaning. He didn't put him in a jail cell or confine him to a closet. He didn't lock him in the truck of his car or put handcuffs on him or use his truck to pin him against a wall where he couldn't move.

He was free to run around. He did in fact, according to evidence from the prosecution, run up and down street and all around the neighborhood. According to prosecution, he never told Arbery he was a under arrest or citizens arrest. He did not arrest or detain him or make any attempt to do so. He did not confine him. Arbery was running all around and not confined.

For felony murder I think the argument will be that Roddie did not cause the murder. In some States felony murder is basically any death that happens as a result of committing a felony. Georgia law say felony murder is when someone "in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice." That raises the question of whether Roddie "caused" the death.

I think the argument will be that in the immediate moments before the shooting, Roddie didn't do anything to "cause" the death. The video show that when Roddie turned around on Holmes, Arbery was out of view. He was just driving up behind him filming. Nothing illegal about that. No attempt to run into or run him over or angling to block him in or attempts to injure or confine him in any way. He wasn't even blocking the direction he was running.

There were no fences on either side of that road. Arbery was free to run through a yard to the left. Or the right. Or circle back around, when there was a cop just a few seconds away. Or run straight, where that cop was just around the corner a few houses down.

Arbery was free to choose any of those paths. Not confided at all. That was his free choice. What happened between him and Travis is up to the jury to decide, but that is a decision on the choices of Arbery and Travis, not Roddie.

That concludes my expectations from Roddie's defense. Prosecution will bring in things like Roddie saying he overshot the road and ran him into a ditch and that he was "going at him" and other things. And some "but for" arguments. But for Roddie joining the chase, the McMichaels probably wouldn't have circled around. Probably wouldn't have gone past Arbery on Holmes when he was running the other way. Couldn't have prevented him from running out of the neighborhood. Couldn't have had him "trapped like a rat". Wouldn't have gone after him with a shotgun.
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Old 13th November 2021, 05:03 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ronnie's lawyer is getting his ass handed to him trying to cross this GBI agent. I don't think this Gough(?) is a very good lawyer.
You do kind of get the sense that the other defense lawyers are sending off a "We're not with him," vibe.
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Old 15th November 2021, 07:41 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You do kind of get the sense that the other defense lawyers are sending off a "We're not with him," vibe.
Which, ironically, works to Ronnie's advantage. Someone mentioned it before, and I agree, I think Ronnie is trying to distance themselves from the McMichael's. I think he's going for a "we thought they had done all the work and knew this guy was guilty. We were just trying to help, that's why I recorded it and handed it over!"
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:04 AM   #295
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Ronnie's attorney is filing another motion because Rev. Jesse Jackson is in the courtroom, rather than in the room where the trial is being streamed to in the courthouse.

He really, really seems to be upset that the Rev. is there, but the judge is definitely not having it lol. He's ruled on it once. I like this judge more than the temper tantrum having baby in the Rittenhouse case. He's not emotional, he's very even keeled, and doesn't feel like he has to scream at anyone or manifest a large amount of butthurt when someone does something he doesn't appreciate.

Anyway, judge basically tells the defense that the Arbery family can have anyone in the courtroom they'd like, and the defense should drop it. Ronnie's attorney made one more lame attempt at stamping his little feet but it got nowhere.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:05 AM   #296
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"Judge... judge... there's.... (whispers) a black guy in the courtroom" is a really weird legal hill to die defending.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:07 AM   #297
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What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:09 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
Basically to piss off people like you.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:12 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
On face value because he's helping the family deal with things and they want him there for support.

There really isn't a whole lot of reason to question this. Both he and Al are big on the attention, but it isn't outlandish that their help for the family is real and appreciated on a personal level.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:12 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Judge... judge... there's.... (whispers) a black guy in the courtroom" is a really weird legal hill to die defending.
It's actually a bit worse than that lol. Last week Rev. Al Sharpton sat in the courtroom too. So this time Gough started out with, "I don't know how many pastors the Arbery's need, or have...", which was then followed by what amounted to a rant that implied the reverends were going to intimidate or sway the jury.

Now they're taking issue with a picture of Arbery being shown, which caused weeping. They're claiming the weeping is improper, and causes attention to be brought to the Rev.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:17 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
Because it's no one's business at all who is in that court room.

No one even knew he was there until days after. If the jury doesn't read the news, they still wouldn't know. They're all wearing masks in the courtroom. It's a complaint without cause.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:18 AM   #302
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Ok, NOW the judge is getting a bit frustrated.

ETA: Gough made another motion complaining about people outside, and how little has been done to restrain any exposure in front of the courthouse.

All defense attorney's are making motions. Asking for about the 250th mistrial since it's started. The defense attorney's are now arguing amongst themselves.

ETA2: Part of the rebuttal from the judge to the defense was to present precedent. The prosecuting attorney just got up and providing 3 cases, 2 SCOTUS cases. They came with the receipts.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:24 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's actually a bit worse than that lol. Last week Rev. Al Sharpton sat in the courtroom too. So this time Gough started out with, "I don't know how many pastors the Arbery's need, or have...", which was then followed by what amounted to a rant that implied the reverends were going to intimidate or sway the jury.

Now they're taking issue with a picture of Arbery being shown, which caused weeping. They're claiming the weeping is improper, and causes attention to be brought to the Rev.
I was going to joke, "Where is Al Sharpton when you need him?". Comically predictable.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:26 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I was going to joke, "Where is Al Sharpton when you need him?". Comically predictable.
Yeah, it's pretty ****** up a civil rights icon would want to attend a civil rights case.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:34 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, it's pretty ****** up a civil rights icon race hustler would want to attend a civil rights case.
I am just not a fan of celebrity courtroom appearances. I think it can influence a jury.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:37 AM   #306
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Stop gunning down black people in the street and the big scawwy black people will stop showing up in court, problem solved.

Sharpton and Jackson aren't on trial, get over it and stop trying to trolljack the discussion to being about them.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:40 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, it's pretty ****** up a civil rights icon would want to attend a civil rights case.
Or that ministers might want to actually help the family deal with the horrifying situation they find themselves in when they have a son murdered in a way that causes them to be in the focus of the national conversation about race.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:42 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am just not a fan of celebrity courtroom appearances. I think it can influence a jury.
As I already said, they were wearing masks, and even the defense attorney's said that they had no idea who he was until at least the following day.

Don't be a fan of it all you want. It didn't influence anything.

Microanalyst on the stand now. This should be good. I love the sciencey stuff.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:44 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Or that ministers might want to actually help the family deal with the horrifying situation they find themselves in when they have a son murdered in a way that causes them to be in the focus of the national conversation about race.
I don't think it's odd to have multiple ministers or pastors. Churches generally have a few.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:45 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am just not a fan of celebrity courtroom appearances. I think it can influence a jury.
It's not like a Laker game where they are announcing their presence on the jumbotron.

Plus with a white jury that could go both ways. It isn't like white people in Georgia are known for their love and respect for northerners who come into their state for purposes of supporting civil rights.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:46 AM   #311
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Tell you what, put two more black people on the jury and Sharpton and Jackson can leave.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:49 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Tell you what, put two more black people on the jury and Sharpton and Jackson can leave.
The defense mentioned it during their motion for mistrial.

"We understand that if we were to match the demographics of our county, we would have 3-4 people of color on the jury. Unfortunately we weren't able to do that."

That kind of...pinged off the judge at the time. Like, the defense could have done that, but they struck all of the black jurors.
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Old 15th November 2021, 10:42 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The defense mentioned it during their motion for mistrial.

"We understand that if we were to match the demographics of our county, we would have 3-4 people of color on the jury. Unfortunately we weren't able to do that."

That kind of...pinged off the judge at the time. Like, the defense could have done that, but they struck all of the black jurors.
Wait...they claimed that they couldn't find three qualified black jurors, but also complained that there weren't enough "Bubbas" on the panel?

You can't make this **** up.
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Old 15th November 2021, 10:57 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Wait...they claimed that they couldn't find three qualified black jurors, but also complained that there weren't enough "Bubbas" on the panel?

You can't make this **** up.
The 3 defense attorney's, and their mini-me's, haven't really fully agreed on much. They all go together on motions, but mostly for different reasons. I can say that Ronnie's attorney is the worst out of them all, and I'm extremely pleased he's there.

His cross of the GBI agent was easily one of the worst cross examinations I've ever heard. Lionel Hutz from The Simpson's did a better job defending Homer from Devil Flanders. He makes the entire group look worse, and him constantly bitching about black people being in the courtroom makes it that much better.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:13 AM   #315
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Forensic examiner on the stand now.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:19 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Forensic examiner on the stand now.
What's he gonna say? It's not like who shot who or what killed him on a biological level are in dispute.

None of the facts are in disputes, just a months long mush mouthed bunch of racial apologetics about what Arbury was doing inside the heads of three racists.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:22 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What's he gonna say? It's not like who shot who or what killed him on a biological level are in dispute.

None of the facts are in disputes, just a months long mush mouthed bunch of racial apologetics about what Arbury was doing inside the heads of three racists.
Perhaps he will be able to explain how Arbery threw himself at those poor boys’ bullets that were just hanging in the air.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:22 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What's he gonna say? It's not like who shot who or what killed him on a biological level are in dispute.
She*. Don't tell my wife, and it's irrelevant, but she's absolutely adorable. Totally my cup of tea.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
None of the facts are in disputes, just a months long mush mouthed bunch of racial apologetics about what Arbury was doing inside the heads of three racists.
She's on the stand to reinforce that Arbery touched Ronnie's vehicle multiple times as he was hit with it. Basically shoring up the charges against Ronnie, I'm pretty sure. The prosecution has already completely shredded the McMichael's claims over the course of last week. I'm sure there are a few more people to come up and testify a bit more, but there aren't a lot of things the McMichael's can say to rationalize what happened. Their own words ****** them hard.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:48 AM   #319
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A digital forensics expert is on the stand right now going over footage, etc. Pretty sure it's for authenticity.
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Old 15th November 2021, 12:08 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
A digital forensics expert is on the stand right now going over footage, etc. Pretty sure it's for authenticity.
Yep. Often a trial has long periods of this type of testimony, its not so much because there are real doubts but to cross the ts and dot the is.
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