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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 15th November 2021, 01:17 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp12
What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Basically to piss off people like you.
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Old 15th November 2021, 01:28 PM   #322
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Looks like now there's a firearm forensic tech on the stand. Going over the guns that were taken, test fires, etc. As Darat said, more T's and I's being crossed. Nothing particularly exciting.
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Old 15th November 2021, 07:36 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think it's odd to have multiple ministers or pastors. Churches generally have a few.
And civil rights movements tend to have even more.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:00 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And civil rights movements tend to have even more.
Yeah. I'm just hoping Louis Farrakhan shows up to bring some additional legitimacy to the proceedings.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:13 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
What is the point of having Jesse Jackson there? Is it some sort of symbolism for the jury to take note of?
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Basically to piss off people like you.
Jesse Jackson, outside the courthouse:

Quote:
"They have a weak case," he said, flanked by the victim’s father, Marcus Arbery Sr. "Three men killed an innocent unarmed boy."
This is why many people characterize Jackson as a race-hustling grifter. "Innocent unarmed boy". Arbery was 25 years old. Society calls that a man. Like I say, I am not fond of celebrity appearances in court cases. There is no good reason for it. No matter their race.

Piss me off? Nope. I fully expect these people to be convicted, and deservedly so, it would seem. But I am laughing at people referring to Sharpton and Jackson as simply "pastors or ministers". I mean, how clueless can one be?
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:20 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Jesse Jackson, outside the courthouse:



This is why many people characterize Jackson as a race-hustling grifter. "Innocent unarmed boy". Arbery was 25 years old. Society calls that a man.
Yes, people of an older generation never refer to younger people as "boys" or "girls" except for devious purposes.

The deliberate obtuseness of your remarks is off the charts sometimes.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:41 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Yes, people of an older generation never refer to younger people as "boys" or "girls" except for devious purposes.

The deliberate obtuseness of your remarks is off the charts sometimes.
Jackson is not ignorant of the meaning of his words. It is an insult to him to imply otherwise. Like I say, celebs have no place in the courtroom...unless they are directly part of the case.

I get that people want to see these folks burn for their actions. But that is independent of whether it is proper to turn a trial into a biased celebrity circus.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:08 AM   #328
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Well, the defense started the day off doing stupid ****, so it's going to be a long day for them I think.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:10 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Piss me off? Nope. I fully expect these people to be convicted, and deservedly so, it would seem. But I am laughing at people referring to Sharpton and Jackson as simply "pastors or ministers". I mean, how clueless can one be?
Well, that's a thinly veiled insult if I've ever seen one. Thank you, thank you.

The fact is, they can be in that court room all the **** they want and there's nothing the defense can do about it. They are pastors, they are ministers, and, as you conveniently seem to ******* ignore for some reason, no one in the court room even knew until significantly after the fact due to wearing masks and sitting out of the sight line of the jury.

Seriously, get over it lol.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:18 AM   #330
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Yes we totally believe you have strong opinions about "celebrities in the courtroom" that you would be expressing with the same vigor in other circumstances.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:20 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes we totally believe you have strong opinions about "celebrities in the courtroom" that you would be expressing with the same vigor in other circumstances.
This is the same guy who has zero issues at all with the antics of the Rittenhouse judge. He's just a quirky turkey, that one. Having someone sit in the courtroom though, that isn't speaking, involved, or even noticed in real-time, that's a problem he has to speak up about.

You can't make it up.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:23 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This is the same guy who has zero issues at all with the antics of the Rittenhouse judge. He's just a quirky turkey, that one. Having someone sit in the courtroom though, that isn't speaking, involved, or even noticed in real-time, that's a problem he has to speak up about.

You can't make it up.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:24 AM   #333
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So I guess the defense turned over every suspicious person's call report for a period of a few years for that area to the prosecution and court to use as evidence. The prosecution read off some pretty irrelevant calls that were included. The defense got up to give why it should be permitted, the judge asked one question:

"Are you going to link any of this back to the defendants showing that they knew any of this?"

With 3 lawyers the judge is still hearing all of their arguments. It's not looking good.
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Old 16th November 2021, 07:40 AM   #334
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This trial has been a lot of

"If it pleases the Court I'd like to enter my alternative universe fan fiction account of the events into evidence...."
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Old 16th November 2021, 08:15 AM   #335
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Medical Examiner is on the stand.
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Old 16th November 2021, 10:01 AM   #336
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Defense is trying to get the medical examiner to say that Arbery just didn't flee far enough. He had other options as far as where he could run to.
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Old 16th November 2021, 10:07 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Defense is trying to get the medical examiner to say that Arbery just didn't flee far enough. He had other options as far as where he could run to.
"The victim was very bad at fleeing from us" is certainly an interesting argument.
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Old 16th November 2021, 10:10 AM   #338
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Oh good "Why didn't he just run faster." Good to know the Defense is getting tips from this board.
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Old 16th November 2021, 10:25 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
"The victim was very bad at fleeing from us" is certainly an interesting argument.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh good "Why didn't he just run faster." Good to know the Defense is getting tips from this board.
Yup, the state and the ME at some point said that when Arbery was "blocked in" that he had a fight or flight response. The defense countered with, "But he really wasn't blocked in was he? He could have gone around the truck, or the other direction, etc."

I think the overall rebuttal was, "At some point even this young healthy 25 year old is going to get tired."

The defense tried everything in that cross. "You saw that Arbery hit McMichael. Did you see how many times?"

So it is really Arbery's fault apparently. If he would have just kept running, or not fought back when he had a gun stuffed in his stomach, he would have been fine! Why are we persecuting these poor, poor white men who just wanted to shoot a black guy protect their neighborhood and an unbuilt, unprotected house without doors, windows, garage doors, and that people of all shapes and colors roamed around in? They're actually the victims here!
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Old 16th November 2021, 01:55 PM   #340
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So I've been saying "Ronnie" and it's apparently "Roddie", but whatever his name is, his lawyer is a complete and total moron. I mean, top notch jackass.

He should be mocked relentlessly

ETA: The attorney for Roddie is, again, complaining about people in the courtroom, and is filing a motion for mistrial. He's currently bitching about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton again.
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Last edited by plague311; 16th November 2021 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 16th November 2021, 05:47 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So I've been saying "Ronnie" and it's apparently "Roddie", but whatever his name is, his lawyer is a complete and total moron. I mean, top notch jackass.

He should be mocked relentlessly

ETA: The attorney for Roddie is, again, complaining about people in the courtroom, and is filing a motion for mistrial. He's currently bitching about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton again.
In know right. What is this guy's problem. His questions are HORRIBLE. He asked a GBI special agent about his impression of the data from the video? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

When I testified a lot, (admittedly in immigration proceedings not criminal ones) if you asked me my impression of the evidence, what do you think I'd say? I'm the guy that ******* arrested the person. How could there be any doubt as to my impression of the evidence? I've been crossed by some mindlessly incompetent low lifes (immigration law attracts some very skilled and dedicated attorneys but it also attracts the bottom of the barrel). I can't remember one ever ******* the neighbor's dog like this is such an spectacular way.
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Old 16th November 2021, 05:49 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So I've been saying "Ronnie" and it's apparently "Roddie", but whatever his name is, his lawyer is a complete and total moron. I mean, top notch jackass.

He should be mocked relentlessly

ETA: The attorney for Roddie is, again, complaining about people in the courtroom, and is filing a motion for mistrial. He's currently bitching about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton again.
Wow, the judge spoke on this. Move on. How did he not pick up on the fact that the counsel for the other two kept their mouths shut?
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Old 16th November 2021, 06:07 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's not looking good.
For who?
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Old 17th November 2021, 12:29 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, NOW the judge is getting a bit frustrated.

ETA: Gough made another motion complaining about people outside, and how little has been done to restrain any exposure in front of the courthouse.

All defense attorney's are making motions. Asking for about the 250th mistrial since it's started. The defense attorney's are now arguing amongst themselves.

ETA2: Part of the rebuttal from the judge to the defense was to present precedent. The prosecuting attorney just got up and providing 3 cases, 2 SCOTUS cases. They came with the receipts.
What a mess. As I said, this is looking to win on appeal. It is one thing to preserve options for appeal, but another thing to create them. When they complained about the judge not asking the jury everyday about any concerns, I thought it was about seeing things in media. I still think that is part of it. But what we have seen since, I think that had a lot to do with setting up this issue.

They asked the neighbor who called police about getting threats. He had. Prosecution never brought that up. Defense did. Juror then sent a note to the judge about what information about the jury is being revealed to the public.

Prosecution calls a witness who was a neighbor who does nothing but testify that this is a picture of Arbery. This might have been a sleazeball tactic by the prosecution, but it is also quite normal to bring in a witness to show this kind of picture. The jury has only seen Arbery wandering around a construction house, usually on night vision where people can look strange, and running around the neighborhood being chased.

Prosecution normally wants to get in a nice picture of the victim. A nice looking smiling young man. That creates a context that this isn't just a data point in the case. It was an actual human being who existed largely outside of the context of these other videos and who had friends and neighbors and was a real person. I think that was the intent rather than eliciting a response from the gallery, but I think it is also not uncommon to do this to get a response from the gallery. It is emotional rather than factual evidence (not that there is anything wrong with that, in some circumstances).

This is an obvious concern for defense. Jurors have heard about people getting threats just for calling the non-emergency police number to report a person on a property after that property owner talked to them about that person being on the property. Jurors with questions about their information being released. Demonstrations outside the courthouse. Now they see Jesse Jackson there. They will wonder if he is out there stirring up an angry mob. And he sort of is. Jurors could be influenced by the threat of what could happen after their verdict.

But I would certainly expect an appellant court would strongly consider that the defense brought this on themselves. They raised the issue of threats to the jury.

I also don't understand the comment about the possibility of people dressed like Colonel Sanders coming wearing white masks. I think the judge called it "reprehensible". I call it "confusing". Is this some dig at covid masks? Maybe the jury thinks Roddie likes fried chicken just like that black guy who got shot? That Roddie is an esteemed Kentucky Colonels beyond doubt of guilt? That White Supremacists all look like Kentucky Colonels?

It seems offensive but is so bizarre and obscure that I'm not sure I can even consider it racist. I think I could only convict him of "attempted racism".
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Old 17th November 2021, 12:55 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
people of color
I've always found that a strange phrase. Isn't everyone a person of colour?
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Old 17th November 2021, 02:27 AM   #346
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An issue I have thought about is how the guy defending Greg handled the whole transcript issues. This case has multiple co-defendants and so we get into Bruton problems with hearsay and have to go through this whole thing with not just showing police reports and bodycam videos and so on.

All the other lawyers went through this this expected way of asking witnesses to read specific segments of transcripts or paraphrasing those that cannot be read directly.

But this guy just read out long passages of the transcript. In a drone baritone voice. Sometimes asking the witness if what he read was correct. Sometimes not. And sometimes then going on to an interpretation of what was said and then asking the witness, which is really just counsel making an argument and also calling for speculation.

I don't understand this approach. I have listened to most of the trial. I remember most of what witnesses said about the text of transcripts. But I hardly remember anything about what that lawyer said. As a juror or someone listening to the case in a similar way, I want to hear what the witness says. That is the testimony. When counsel is droning on and then suggesting interpretations, I don't really listen because I am waiting for the question and the response from the witness. The only thing I remember is that the witness said "yes" in agreement to a quote from a transcript, but I don't remember what that transcript said. And that he tried to get the witness to agree with his interpretation of whatever, even though that is the jury's job.

I am rather baffled by his approach.
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Old 17th November 2021, 03:31 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I've always found that a strange phrase. Isn't everyone a person of colour?
Language is weird, get over it. Blacks are more like brown, and whites are mostly pink. Maybe if it was Pink vs. Brown people wouldn't take everything so black and white.
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Old 17th November 2021, 04:14 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
What a mess. As I said, this is looking to win on appeal. It is one thing to preserve options for appeal, but another thing to create them. When they complained about the judge not asking the jury everyday about any concerns, I thought it was about seeing things in media. I still think that is part of it. But what we have seen since, I think that had a lot to do with setting up this issue.

They asked the neighbor who called police about getting threats. He had. Prosecution never brought that up. Defense did. Juror then sent a note to the judge about what information about the jury is being revealed to the public.

Prosecution calls a witness who was a neighbor who does nothing but testify that this is a picture of Arbery. This might have been a sleazeball tactic by the prosecution, but it is also quite normal to bring in a witness to show this kind of picture. The jury has only seen Arbery wandering around a construction house, usually on night vision where people can look strange, and running around the neighborhood being chased.

Prosecution normally wants to get in a nice picture of the victim. A nice looking smiling young man. That creates a context that this isn't just a data point in the case. It was an actual human being who existed largely outside of the context of these other videos and who had friends and neighbors and was a real person. I think that was the intent rather than eliciting a response from the gallery, but I think it is also not uncommon to do this to get a response from the gallery. It is emotional rather than factual evidence (not that there is anything wrong with that, in some circumstances).

...snip...
Indeed painting a victim of a crime in the best light will happen but in this case all they are doing is ensuring that there can't be any "reasonable doubt" that the person in the video is Arbery. The key evidence is the video so you must show the jury how he was identified on this video, that it happened as shown and so on. It's part of the usual dotting is and crossing ts.
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Old 17th November 2021, 04:20 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
...snip...

I am rather baffled by his approach.
I'm not - there is simply not a good defence that can be brought forward so the lawyers have no choice but to work with what they have which is extraordinarily little, the best* lawyers in the world couldn't help with this case.


*And by best, I mean ethical lawyers who follow their professions codes and so on. I've not listened to all the court proceedings, but I am surprised the judge hasn't had a conference with the defence lawyers reminding them that whilst they must do their best for their client they have to do so ethically, which is not to try for instance to get a mistrial and so on.
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Old 17th November 2021, 05:30 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm not - there is simply not a good defence that can be brought forward so the lawyers have no choice but to work with what they have which is extraordinarily little, the best* lawyers in the world couldn't help with this case.
"If the law is on your side, pound the law into the table. If the facts are on your side, pound the facts into the table. If neither is on your side, pound the table."

Attributed to just about everyone.

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Old 17th November 2021, 05:48 AM   #351
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AFAICS, the whole defence strategy appears to amount to "look, a squirrel"
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Old 17th November 2021, 06:39 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm not - there is simply not a good defence that can be brought forward so the lawyers have no choice but to work with what they have which is extraordinarily little, the best* lawyers in the world couldn't help with this case.


*And by best, I mean ethical lawyers who follow their professions codes and so on. I've not listened to all the court proceedings, but I am surprised the judge hasn't had a conference with the defence lawyers reminding them that whilst they must do their best for their client they have to do so ethically, which is not to try for instance to get a mistrial and so on.
It could be the guy is an idiot, but...

Making it as hard as possible for the state to obtain a legal conviction is more an ethical obligation than a ethical breach within the practice of US criminal law.

Being aggressive about getting a mistrial is part of that. There is a fine line between that and inviting error, but given the harshly adversarial nature of US law being aggressive about that line is expected. Defense lawyers are supposed to be trolls throwing wrenches into a machine built to efficiently put people in jail. The emphasis is so much more on formal process than it is finding the truth that a defense often has to go into those waters.


(There is also a potential metagame here where going on and on about Jesse and Al is material that could stir up the right wing press and create political sympathy and maybe lead to some sort of pardon/commutation by a future sympathetic governor. Very low probability, but why not? It isn't like the state isn't doing the exact opposite as a matter of course in most cases. This is such a weird case mostly because these guys are on trial essentially for impersonating police officers. If they had badges this trial never happens)

I mean, I wish it wasn't this way because this is a really stupid system that is on the whole deeply unfair to those accused of crimes.
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Old 17th November 2021, 06:57 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
AFAICS, the whole defence strategy appears to amount to "look, a squirrel"
That's the thing about the table saying. In trial defense the third move is often better to deny the existence of the table than it is to pound on it. It depends on circumstances.
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Old 17th November 2021, 08:27 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
For who?
For the McMichael's. They're really pushing the "citizens arrest" angle, but that's blown up in their face every single time. They repeatedly said in their interviews that they had absolutely no idea where Arbery was going, where he was coming from, or why he was running. They knew absolutely nothing, but still chased him down and shot him.

The only one that might, maybe, get out of this without spending a large portion of their life in prison is Roddie. He might get out of some of it due to thinking it was a legit arrest, but I wouldn't hold out hope.

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I've always found that a strange phrase. Isn't everyone a person of colour?
I didn't make it bud, it's the preferred nomenclature so it's what I'm using.
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Old 17th November 2021, 08:33 AM   #355
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I'm from Georgia and the sight of a black man or woman jogging is such a common sight that this post intrigues me. Is it because white Georgians are perceived to be racist to the point to where it is not safe to jog if you're black in the presence of white people?

Georgia has changed. I don't think we are any more racist than say Ohio or Washington state for that matter.

Blacks jog for their health and well being. Whites seldom bother them and on the rare occasion when they do they face a hate crime arrest which can get them many years in prison.
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Old 17th November 2021, 08:39 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I'm from Georgia and the sight of a black man or woman jogging is such a common sight that this post intrigues me. Is it because white Georgians are perceived to be racist to the point to where it is not safe to jog if you're black in the presence of white people?

Georgia has changed. I don't think we are any more racist than say Ohio or Washington state for that matter.

Blacks jog for their health and well being. Whites seldom bother them and on the rare occasion when they do they face a hate crime arrest which can get them many years in prison.
I'm not really sure what you were getting at here, but in this case a black man jogging was enough to warrant him getting shot. He did nothing else.
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Old 17th November 2021, 08:42 AM   #357
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They're gonna sell it as "Well they THOUGHT they could make a citizens arrest so ispo facto e pluribus unum with sprinkles because of in media res in mens rea legalese legalese legalese that means they are innocent and have to go free."

Again "You don't understand I completely mistook the situation so I can't be held accountable for my actions." Same as with Officer Tired 'n Horny.

10 bucks says the Rittenhouse lawyers try something similar, that is if they ever need to with the Judge scribbling "I ❤ Rittenhouse OMG he's so dreamy" on his notepad during breaks in the trial.

Concepts which were put in place back in saner times to allow people to reasonably and within sane parameters protect themselves (Stand your ground, castle doctrine, citizens arrest, etc) are being perverted by the Proudly Wrong to mean "Well I'm too stupid to know what I'm doing and LOL by pure coincidence it means I get to hurt other people and not get punished for it."
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Old 17th November 2021, 09:08 AM   #358
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Judge denied all motions for directed verdict. I'll be on the road today but it appears that they're going to start with Roddie's lawyer making his deferred opening statement, which should be ******* hilarious.

Right now they're going to swear in the defendants to confirm that they've been talked to about testifying. All of them wish to not be asked if they want to testify when the jury comes in.

ETA: I can honestly say that the McMichael's have lost a ton of weight. Looks like jail and the trial have been a bit tough on them. I didn't even realize that the older McMichael had been sitting there the whole time.
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Last edited by plague311; 17th November 2021 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 17th November 2021, 11:16 AM   #359
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Well, my trip got canceled, but now I'm really confused.

The prosecution must have rested and they're now calling Travis, himself, to the stand.
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Old 17th November 2021, 11:30 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not really sure what you were getting at here, but in this case a black man jogging was enough to warrant him getting shot. He did nothing else.
Again, just to be fair: Arbery wasn't "just jogging". Look at the video of him leaving the house- that's a running full tilt sprint. And since the hillbilly boys were on the lookout for a suspected theif or trespasser or whatever, it amounts to more than some black guy jogging.

Not defending these pricks at all, but that doesn't mean we need to spin the facts. The truth is obscene enough.

And with this and the Rittenhouse matter and others, I am losing patience with prosecutors not accusing men holding long guns "at the ready" to be brandishing, instead of carrying. Really want to start seeing formal definitions for open carry of long guns, in particular a requirement that they be slung. If handguns need to be holstered (not in firing position), so should long arms.
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Last edited by Thermal; 17th November 2021 at 11:41 AM. Reason: typos
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