IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Cuba incidents , Cuba issues , protest incidents

Reply
Old 11th July 2021, 03:44 PM   #1
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 11,911
Protests Erupt in Cuba

Public protests in Cuba, normally unthinkable, have erupted as widespread anger and frustration grows at the current situation. The Miami Herald reports:
Quote:
In an unprecedented display of anger and frustration, thousands of people took to the streets Sunday in several cities and towns in Cuba, including Havana, to call for the end of the decades-old dictatorship and demand food and vaccines as shortages of basic necessities have reached crisis proportions and COVID-19 cases have soared. Miami Herald link
A 14-second video shows people marching in protest.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


With a population of 11 million people -- thirty times smaller than the United States -- Cuba is now recording more new Covid-19 cases per day then in the U.S. .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cuba New cases per day 07102021.jpg (40.4 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Cuba Deaths per day 07102021.jpg (32.6 KB, 5 views)
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2021, 05:07 PM   #2
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
A System modeled after that of the old Soviet Union fails badly. Whatta surprise.
But I though Cuba had such a great health care system?
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2021, 05:28 PM   #3
RolandRat
Graduate Poster
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 1,415
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A System modeled after that of the old Soviet Union fails badly. Whatta surprise.
But I though Cuba had such a great health care system?
What made you think it was so great? A nationalised health care system is only going to be as good as the people in charge and how much they are willing to invest in it.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2021, 08:20 PM   #4
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
What made you think it was so great? A nationalised health care system is only going to be as good as the people in charge and how much they are willing to invest in it.
It has been constanlty touted by Castro apologist as being great, Micheal Moore being the worst example.
It seems not to be that good in reality.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2021, 11:05 PM   #5
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,925
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It has been constanlty touted by Castro apologist as being great, Micheal Moore being the worst example.

It seems not to be that good in reality.
I have no dog in the fight.

But covid cases and deaths rising isn't a result of health care infrastructure and serviceability, it is a failure of public health care policy.

12% vaccinated. That's the reason.

Now, is that a failure of leadership or a failure of execution? I don't know.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 11th July 2021 at 11:07 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 10:22 AM   #6
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 11,911
The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 11:59 AM   #7
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I have no dog in the fight.

But covid cases and deaths rising isn't a result of health care infrastructure and serviceability, it is a failure of public health care policy.

12% vaccinated. That's the reason.

Now, is that a failure of leadership or a failure of execution? I don't know.
Probably both, given that Cuba, despite surface changes, is still pretty much ran on the hard line Soviet model.
I am not opposed to more democractig, moderate forms of Socialism, but IMHO hard line "The state controls everything" Marxist model has failed time and time again.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 12:00 PM   #8
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Cuba Libre!
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 12:21 PM   #9
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,925
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Probably both, given that Cuba, despite surface changes, is still pretty much ran on the hard line Soviet model.

I am not opposed to more democractig, moderate forms of Socialism, but IMHO hard line "The state controls everything" Marxist model has failed time and time again.
The public health metrics are what I prefer to go by. As I understand it, they are on-par with many advanced nations and outperform the U.S.

YMMV.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 12th July 2021 at 12:23 PM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2021, 02:04 PM   #10
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
ANd in many forums the True Beleivers have shown up, blaming everybody and everything for the situation in Cuba except the Cuban Government.
US sanctions are getting a lot of the blame. I have been in favor of lifting the sanctions for a long time simply becuase that will take that excuse away from the Cuban Government.
US sanctions have only a minor impact on the Cuban economy.
Truth is a lot of people just cannot get their fantisized version of a workers paradise in Cuba out of their heads.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2021, 02:05 PM   #11
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Cuban government is now using the old classic "The protestors are tools of the evil imperalist reactionairies" line in justifying supression of the protestors. And apparently the Cuban regime is organzing thugs gangs to go after the protestors.
Sadly, but to what should be nobody's surprise, the usual useful idiots are buying into the Cuban government line.
This is going to get really, really, ugly.
You know, I am wierd in one way. I don't like oppresive regimes, no matter what ideology they use. Oppersive regimes are bad, period.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2021, 03:21 PM   #12
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,925
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Cuban government is now using the old classic "The protestors are tools of the evil imperalist reactionairies" line in justifying supression of the protestors. And apparently the Cuban regime is organzing thugs gangs to go after the protestors.
Sadly, but to what should be nobody's surprise, the usual useful idiots are buying into the Cuban government line.
This is going to get really, really, ugly.
You know, I am wierd in one way. I don't like oppresive regimes, no matter what ideology they use. Oppersive regimes are bad, period.
I agree the situation is grim and repression in all forms is an affront.

The reason it is an effective epithet, however, has a lot to do with it being true about as often as it is not.

This looks genuine and spontaneous and conditions on the ground warrant real, immediate, and visceral concerns.

But if we can't ever seem to climb more than a handful of years without our foreign intelligence services getting caught with their fingers in one or several South/Central American pies, it will continue to be a) available, and b) effective, in dividing public opinion enough to deflate their support.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 03:23 AM   #13
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Quote:
They call themselves freedom fighters and think that they are fighting for all of us. They have formed the Joint Council of the Liberation Movement and call it a liberation movement for the people, by the people.

And they are against vaccines, against lockdowns - coronavirus is not a big threat, but the government is. It is - the many people think - part of a worldwide plan to secure all power to the elite, along with most of the money, and to oppress the people.
De kalder sig frihedskæmpere, og når de har vundet kampen, vil de stille dronningen og andre fra eliten til ansvar for corona-svindel (Jan. 17, 2021)

I expect that Biden will intervene in the near future. He can be excused for having overlooked this plea from the group of freedom fighters because he had other things on his mind in mid-January.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 03:31 AM   #14
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,279
Maybe Murrica should end the ludicrous embargo?
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 03:52 AM   #15
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
With a population of 11 million people -- thirty times smaller than the United States -- Cuba is now recording more new Covid-19 cases per day then in the U.S. .

True! Let's look at some other numbers:
Deaths per million (Worldometers, July 18, 2021)
Cuba: 163
USA: 1,876
Yes, that's communism for ya!
USA! USA! USA!

The numbers of new infections and Covid-19 deaths are rising rapidly. At this point, deaths per million are somewhere between Norway's and Finland's. But for almost a year, Cuba managed to hold the virus at bay while developing its own vaccines, which are being used to immunize the Cuban population right now and are also used in Venezuela because the country did not get the vaccines it had ordered because of the US blockade.
It might have been better if Cuba had administered those vaccines at home instead of abroad, but the domestic vaccinations are going pretty fast in Cuba right now.
I can see why Biden would want to score a propaganda victory by giving some of the vaccines that the Americans don't seem to want to Cuba instead, but lifting the blockade that prevents the country from buying medical supplies would be an actual help.

I have recently donated a couple of hundred $ to the Danish campaign to send syringes to Cuba. Cuba has the vaccines to fill those syringes.

Support the campaign to break the US blockade and send syringes to the people of Cuba! (CodePink)

Quote:
"Since 1962, the United States has forced pain and suffering on the people of Cuba by cutting off food, medicine, and supplies, costing the tiny island nation an estimated $130 billion."
That loss has made it "harder for Cuba to acquire medical equipment needed to develop its own COVID-19 vaccines and equipment for food production," BLM continued.
"This comes in spite of the country's strong medical care and history of lending doctors and nurses to disasters around the world."
Black Lives Matter calls on Biden to immediately lift the blockade on Cuba (CubaSi.cu, July 15, 2021)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th July 2021 at 04:22 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 04:17 AM   #16
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
I have posted about Cuban Covid-19 vaccines a couple of times in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology sub-forum.
For instance:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13520407
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13528358
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 05:11 AM   #17
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
U.S. Sanctions on Cuba and Venezuela Hamper the Global Fight against COVID-19 (TheIntercept, July 18, 2021)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 07:11 AM   #18
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Cuba Libre!

I recommend the version with tuKola and Cuban rum. It just tastes better at the Hotel Habana Libre.

But Mi Mojito en La Bodeguita, mi Daiquirí en El Floridita.

Today these places serve the purpose of keeping the Cuban economy afloat. I hope that they will be able to reach the stage where they no longer have to depend on tourism.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 01:38 PM   #19
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Maybe Murrica should end the ludicrous embargo?
Agreed, but blaming the embargo for Cuba's economic ills we just another way of denying that the Cuban ecnomic system,modeled after the Soviet System, has been a miserable falure.
One reason why I suport lifitng the embargos is that the Cuban Regime and it useful idiots will no longer be able to use that as an excuse.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 01:55 PM   #20
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,279
Nm

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 18th July 2021 at 01:56 PM.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 08:44 PM   #21
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, but blaming the embargo for Cuba's economic ills we just another way of denying that the Cuban ecnomic system,modeled after the Soviet System, has been a miserable falure.
One reason why I suport lifitng the embargos is that the Cuban Regime and it useful idiots will no longer be able to use that as an excuse.

Could you tell us more about how you allegedly support putting an end to a blockade that is an attempt to make "the Cuban economic system" fail?
And what are the other reasons?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2021, 09:46 PM   #22
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Meanwhile in another part of the world:
Quote:
With Thailand going through its worst pandemic wave to date, protesters in Bangkok defied COVID restrictions to call for Prime Minister Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down.
Thai police on Sunday used rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannon to disperse some 1,000 protesters calling for Premier Prayut Chan-O-Cha to step down over alleged mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic.
It was unclear how many were injured in the clash.
The protest came as the kingdom registers record levels of coronavirus infections, with hospitals under severe strain.
Thailand: Police fire rubber bullets at anti-government protesters (DW, July 18, 2021)

It can only be a matter of hours before Biden and Blinken demand regime change ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2021, 05:36 AM   #23
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2021, 06:17 PM   #24
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
i came in here to do apologism for the Cuban revolution, but I just can't given the record of human rights abuse. There's a horrible prison right there on the island that is openly torturing prisoners and shows no sign of ever stopping. Perhaps one day the torture camp can be liberated and those committing crimes against humanity will be held accountable.

Only a tankie would say this is ok.
no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2021, 07:03 PM   #25
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,279
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...
Plenty of useful idiots to keep it on though.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2021, 11:01 PM   #26
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...

You seriously overestimate your own impact if you believe that you constitute heat that the Cuban government needs help to deflect.

Maybe it's time for the USA to ask Cuba to send the Henry Reeve Brigade to help fight the virus.
Florida appears to be in dire need of foreign intervention:

Inside A Florida Hospital During Nationwide Covid Surge (NBC News, July 20, 2021)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Cuba offered to help last year: Cuba is Ready to Aid the U.S. in its Fight Against COVID-19 (The Progressive Magazine, April 30, 2020)
Quote:
In March 2020, 144 health workers from this Henry Reeve Brigade were sent by Cuba to assist Jamaica in dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic in Jamaica, also another group was sent to Italy to fight against the COVID-19 pandemic in Italy.
Henry Reeve (soldier) (Wikipedia)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 19th July 2021 at 11:03 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 04:18 AM   #27
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
no one is saying it's OK, but this an obvious off topic deflect to take the heat off the Cuban Regime.
But thanks for showing there are still True Beleivers around...
Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 05:31 AM   #28
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,999
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?
If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 06:42 AM   #29
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,471
I don't think you actually want citations. Dudalb didn't have any.
But here goes:

Quote:
Also in the park where Díaz-Canel went to confront those who intended to fracture the unity of the Party, the state, the government and the people, were father and son, Roberto Reyes Herrera, president of the Antonio Briones Montoto agricultural cooperative production unit, and Yosbel Reyes Sotomayor. The former recalled the hard times Cubans faced before 1959, which his parents told him about, and insisted that he is grateful for "the opportunities the Revolution has given me, that a few do not want to recognize."

His son likewise stated, "I’m sure that it was the Cuban-American mafia who paid the provocateurs who wanted to take advantage of the difficult situation Cuba is experiencing," adding, "The youth of San Antonio are on the side of our leaders, that is why we have taken to the parks and the streets.”

The flags, the cheers, the revolutionary conscience and confidence in those who are working every day to move our nation forward, left drowning in a sigh of impotence the malicious imperialist lackeys who made Benito leave his quiet Sunday at home. He insisted, "Let it be known, the people of Cuba are not those who disturbed the peace today, those who love the empire so much. The people of Cuba are the doctors, the scientists who made the vaccines, those of us who came to tell the President: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel, whatever it takes!"
San Antonio de los Baños: Whatever it takes, Díaz-Canel! (Granma.cu, July 12, 2021)

Now, I don't doubt that you can also find ordinary Cubans who aren't paid by USAID to instigate regime change, people who have simply suffered from the pandemic and the additional hardships that it added to the everyday lives of Cubans, but I am pretty sure that the people quoted in the Granma articles actually exist and actually said what they were quoted as saying. Unlike all the tough and strong men that Trump always talks about who come up to thank him with tears in their eyes:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Quote:
It takes a lot of nerve for the U.S. President to assume a tone of concern for the Cuban people, while maintaining the genocidal blockade and allocating millions of dollars for subversion in our country.
The U.S. government should listen to the Cuban people demanding an end to the blockade (Granma.cu, July 15, 2021)
Of course, dudalb seems to think that the blockade doesn't really do anything to destroy the Cuban economy and that it wasn't an even harder blow when Trump added to it in the middle of the pandemic when tourism suffered everywhere.
To dudalb, it only provides an excuse for the Cuban state, but for some reason, Biden doesn't seem to want to remove that excuse ...


ETA: The Men in Black 'freedom fighters' I quoted in post 13 also don't represent the Danish people in its struggle against the the oppression of a Social Democratic PM, who is violating their human rights. They are the lunatic fringe, but probably not paid by foreign adversaries.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 20th July 2021 at 06:47 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 06:58 AM   #30
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you're going to talk seriously about it, you should probably cite some of these breathless reports.
Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 20th July 2021 at 07:05 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 10:44 AM   #31
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Ok, let's talk seriously about it.

Is there any evidence that this current round of dissent in Cuba is significant or approaching broad enough popularity to threaten the current government?

Seems like every time there's some news report of public criticism of the Castro led government there's breathless reports of how we're on the verge of a color revolution breaking out and overthrowing the government.

Is this time different, or just another lucy pulling out the football incident?
THanks for proving my point: You are a supporter of the Cuban regime.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 10:46 AM   #32
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.

The original generation of revolutionaries are all dead or retired, so the party doesn't have the benefit of extremely popular figures like Fidel anymore. Covid has intensified the economic shortfalls of the Cuban system.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some mild market reforms as a result, akin to what China or Vietnam went through in their history. A full blown color revolution seems unlikely, unless there is significant interference by foreign powers.

It seems relevant to be mindful what the current Cuban system is being compared to. What alternative existed for Cuba? What alternatives exist today? Would it be better if they went the way of some of their other South American peers, like Guatemala, that had their revolutions crushed by CIA back military coups? Would it have been better if huge swaths of Cuban land and the economy remained in the hands of powerful foreign corporations like United Fruit? Perhaps if the heirs of Batista and the US mob still ran the entire tourism industry, things on the island might be better.

Compared to the rest of South America, which suffers from enormous levels of intense poverty, is Cuba really doing that poorly? If there's going to be a good faith analysis of their system of government, seems that settings realistic standards of comparison is a necessary first step.
"Communism is a great system. Only problem is the right people have not tried it."

Back in the 1930's you would have been eagerly defending Uncle Joe, no doubt.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 10:48 AM   #33
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,230
Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 10:59 AM   #34
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.
Three back to back posts and no response to a plainly stated question. Impressive.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 11:01 AM   #35
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,999
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems incontrovertible that there's more popular unrest than previously, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's pretty significant political change in the near future.
Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 11:05 AM   #36
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Agreed. But where are the breathless reports of an imminent color revolution you were talking about? All I'm seeing is a little cautious optimism.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:

Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The Cuban people have suffered a lot under communist rulers. I wondered if this might be the beginnings of a historic uprising -- such as we saw in Eastern Europe thirty years ago -- but the protests need to become widespread and pervasive to be successful. We shall see.

Bloomberg News loaded a video -- apparently from today -- showing protests in what I think is Havana.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 12:24 PM   #37
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,999
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this comment:
Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.

Quote:
Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.
newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?

I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 12:29 PM   #38
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, I don't see how you get "breathless reports" from newyorkguy's cautious optimism.


newyorkguy is a Cuban expat and an American Cold Warrior? And why get personal, anyway?

I think you're making up a controversy where none exists, for some sort of ill-conceived rhetorical advantage. It's weird. There's widespread protests in Cuba, which is pretty noteworthy in itself, and could well be an early indicator of things to come. Lots of stuff there worth talking about, but your spin seems to be, why do people always push a counter-revolution narrative. And then it turns out you don't actually know anyone who's pushing tha narrative. So not only is it a weird spin, it's not even a reality-based spin. What benefit were you hoping to get from this?
The controversy certainly exists generally, though I may be jumping to conclusions to ascribe that motive to posters here.

I don't think it's controversial to say that explicit regime change policies is basically the accepted party line for the Republican party, and probably not an insignificant number among the Democratic party as well. Perhaps my knee-jerk assumption that any US coverage about unrest in Cuba is a pretext for US intervention is misplaced in this case.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I hope this isn't some sort of pro-Castro attempt to poison the well against discussion of possible regime change in Cuba. It will suck if every time someone expresses cautious optimism, you read into it "American Cold Warriors are making breathless reports of an imminent counter-revolution".
As far as I can tell, Castro is a non factor these days. Fidel has been dead for years and his brother is only dragged out for rare symbolic efforts.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 12:50 PM   #39
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 25,279
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Don't see much difference between a Trumper trying to defend Trump and a True Beleiver trying to defend the Cuban regime:Noth have no problem with a dictatorship if it's of the right flavor.
You can’t see a difference? Good for you, chum.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2021, 01:05 PM   #40
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 14,761
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cuban expats and American Cold Warriors seem to think every protest in Cuba is an opportunity for counter revolution.
Just like in Belarus and other police states, every visible public protest shows cracks in the system.

BTW, there's nothing counter-revolutionary in attacking a decades-old entrenched system. It's part of the BS left-wing nostalgia that still tries to pass of Cuba as laid-back Latino socialism with rum and rhumba.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips

Last edited by timhau; 20th July 2021 at 01:08 PM.
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.