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Old 21st August 2021, 02:19 AM   #361
Pixel42
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hello. I really appreciate your attention and your arguments. If possible, tell me the ways of proving the supernatural by previous friends who have failed. I am eager to read the opinions of others in this field. Thank you.
This forum was originally the forum of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), it was renamed when Randi retired and relinquished it to a member. JREF offered a prize of one million dollars to anyone who could provide scientific proof of the supernatural. Most applicants claimed paranormal abilities such as being able to dowse, communicate with the dead etc. The process was for a test protocol to be developed by the applicant and JREF which both agreed was fair. The test was then run under scientifically controlled conditions.

If you look in this subforum:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=43

you will find many threads, each detailing the progress of an applicant. You will see that few got as far as agreeing a test protocol, and those that did all failed the test. In the latter threads you will see examples of such test protocols.
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Old 21st August 2021, 02:42 AM   #362
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@heydarian saeed: You are still posting bits of the Qu'ran and attempting to find ways to interpret them such that they appear to predict actual, or more recently imaginary, scientific discoveries. It has already been explained to you why this is a pointless exercise, which proves absolutely nothing. Once again: if this is all you've got you've got nothing, and you are wasting your time here.
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Old 21st August 2021, 03:56 AM   #363
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It seems almost an invariable rule that people who interpret their ancient holy books as understanding (and anticipating) modern science are also people whose actual understanding of that science is just as foggy- one misunderstanding is the consequence of the other.
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Old 21st August 2021, 04:13 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I suspect he believes that, if the meanings of a few verses can be twisted so that they appear to predict recent scientific discoveries, that counts as scientific proof that the book was divinely inspired, and hence of God. It's a nonsensical argument, but it gets a few more points for effort than most nonsensical arguments.
Hello. I do not need more or less points. And thank you for your kindness. But be careful, dear friends: it does not say anything new in the Quran! It only talks about what is and what is. And it does not predict! It just tells me and you that these scientific facts exist in the universe. And God created it. And you and I will seek to discover these scientific facts. And to achieve its unique achievements. And profit. Let's create a beautiful world for a safe life. That all should enjoy all these blessings equally. Do you know anything better than this?
I may not be able to express the true meaning of what I am writing to you. And my language has a problem with mutual understanding. I apologize for this, like all of you. The Qur'an and God want good for all human beings. He wants good. Our perception; What Muslims we seem to believe in! And what are the disbelievers and disbelievers who do not accept and think in vain that there are defects and defects in the Qur'an and God and His purpose. God and the Qur'an have different and wide meanings. And he himself says in the book of the Qur'an: Everyone chooses a way to reach God and the Qur'an. And this way is free for everyone. (Surah Muzzammel. Verse 19) Better than this ....
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Old 21st August 2021, 04:31 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
This forum was originally the forum of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), it was renamed when Randi retired and relinquished it to a member. JREF offered a prize of one million dollars to anyone who could provide scientific proof of the supernatural. Most applicants claimed paranormal abilities such as being able to dowse, communicate with the dead etc. The process was for a test protocol to be developed by the applicant and JREF which both agreed was fair. The test was then run under scientifically controlled conditions.

If you look in this subforum:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=43

you will find many threads, each detailing the progress of an applicant. You will see that few got as far as agreeing a test protocol, and those that did all failed the test. In the latter threads you will see examples of such test protocols.
You are right. But I do not claim to have supernatural powers. And like you, I'm a normal human being. And I do not have much. And maybe less scientifically than you. I have only proved in my article that there is a supernatural. And its effects can be seen in the laboratory. And in this way, great scientific and technological achievements can be brought to humanity. This.
... Yes, I will definitely see. Thank you.
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Old 21st August 2021, 04:32 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hello. I do not need more or less points. And thank you for your kindness. But be careful, dear friends: it does not say anything new in the Quran! It only talks about what is and what is. And it does not predict! It just tells me and you that these scientific facts exist in the universe. And God created it. And you and I will seek to discover these scientific facts. And to achieve its unique achievements. And profit. Let's create a beautiful world for a safe life. That all should enjoy all these blessings equally. Do you know anything better than this?
I'd say it's better to find out what the universe is really like, even if the truth is less consoling that I would wish, than to twist the meaning of verses in an ancient book (containing many unpleasant and divisive passages) so that they appear to suggest that some recently discovered scientific facts were known to its authors, even though they very obviously were not.

Apart from which, slavish devotion to this awful book clearly does not result in "a beautiful world for a safe life". Not for educated, independent women like me, anyway.
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Old 21st August 2021, 04:52 AM   #367
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... Conclusions from the above scientific discussion:
What is science and perception? Where did it come from? And what is it made of? Is it from matter or something beyond matter?Here I would like to review some obvious principles regarding the characteristics and properties of matter and nature.
We must first define the material being: From the totality of the sayings of the sages in this regard, several things can be named as the characteristics of matter:
1. Having a special place and occupying space
2. Occupy time and having time
3. Significance is sensible
4. Divisibility
5. Evolution through motion; That is, the material being achieves its perfection through movement; His every action is preceded by matter, power and talent.
6. The influence of material things on each other depends on the realization of a specific material situation between the effective and the affected; Therefore, closeness, dimension and being in a special situation are involved in the impact of physical causes.
Of course, one material thing does not have to have all of the above characteristics; Rather, having some of these characteristics in him is a sign of his materiality. All of the above specifications are acceptable to everyone for being material. Movement is inseparable from nature. Therefore, the principle of motion and objective nature are also accepted by all.Now let us see that human science and perceptions have the above characteristics? As you can see, human knowledge and understanding do not have any of the above characteristics. Therefore, science and perception are separate and abstract from matter. According to philosophers, science originates from the human soul. And the human soul is abstract from matter. And it is not made of material. Another important reason for the abstraction of science is the nature of the discovery and realism of truth. This feature is for science only. And not in matter.All the scientific findings and results of scientists' research on seeing, hearing, etc. are related to what happens in the human nervous system and brain cells at the time of seeing, hearing and the emergence of consciousness. All these things are accepted by Islam. But no one can interpret "the truth of science means the discovery of reality." Because, for example, the image you have of a space several kilometers away with mountains, plains, sea, trees, animals and humans in itYou are not compatible with the findings of scientists. Because scientific research says that the image of this space is very small in certain parts of nerves and cells, but "its magnitude is obtained by adaptation to external reality by man by a kind of analogy." For example, the analogy that the face of his body, which is there through seeing, with the reality of the body that he perceives intuitively, uses the same relation in all visions.
Those who do not believe in this principle in fact not only deny science but also deny matter itself.Science and perception are immutable. Just because we understand changes in matter and nature does not mean that
Our own understanding and knowledge of this subject is changing. Rather, our knowledge is fixed.
Movement is nothing but being and not being. Because everything that moves is and is not in an instant.In "becoming" existence and non-existence are together. Thus, by understanding motion and becoming, the concept of gradual and fluid existence is proved. Dialecticians also accept this principle. And are called the principle of contradiction. And introduce the triangle of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Islamic philosophy also believes in the principle of contradiction. And in principle, evolution does not occur if there is no conflict in objects....
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Old 21st August 2021, 04:54 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
This forum was originally the forum of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), it was renamed when Randi retired and relinquished it to a member. JREF offered a prize of one million dollars to anyone who could provide scientific proof of the supernatural. Most applicants claimed paranormal abilities such as being able to dowse, communicate with the dead etc. The process was for a test protocol to be developed by the applicant and JREF which both agreed was fair. The test was then run under scientifically controlled conditions.

If you look in this subforum:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=43

you will find many threads, each detailing the progress of an applicant. You will see that few got as far as agreeing a test protocol, and those that did all failed the test. In the latter threads you will see examples of such test protocols.
Thanks. I read one of the claimants. My article is different from his.
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Old 21st August 2021, 05:44 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Dear Master, can you tell me what the specifications of Korea are? To know.

What?
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Old 21st August 2021, 05:48 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Dear Master, can you tell me what the specifications of Korea are? To know.
Which one?
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:08 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
... Conclusions from the above scientific discussion:
What is science and perception? Where did it come from? And what is it made of? Is it from matter or something beyond matter?Here I would like to review some obvious principles regarding the characteristics and properties of matter and nature.
We must first define the material being: From the totality of the sayings of the sages in this regard, several things can be named as the characteristics of matter:
1. Having a special place and occupying space
2. Occupy time and having time
3. Significance is sensible
4. Divisibility
5. Evolution through motion; That is, the material being achieves its perfection through movement; His every action is preceded by matter, power and talent.
6. The influence of material things on each other depends on the realization of a specific material situation between the effective and the affected; Therefore, closeness, dimension and being in a special situation are involved in the impact of physical causes.
Of course, one material thing does not have to have all of the above characteristics; Rather, having some of these characteristics in him is a sign of his materiality. All of the above specifications are acceptable to everyone for being material. Movement is inseparable from nature. Therefore, the principle of motion and objective nature are also accepted by all.Now let us see that human science and perceptions have the above characteristics? As you can see, human knowledge and understanding do not have any of the above characteristics. Therefore, science and perception are separate and abstract from matter. According to philosophers, science originates from the human soul. And the human soul is abstract from matter. And it is not made of material. Another important reason for the abstraction of science is the nature of the discovery and realism of truth. This feature is for science only. And not in matter.All the scientific findings and results of scientists' research on seeing, hearing, etc. are related to what happens in the human nervous system and brain cells at the time of seeing, hearing and the emergence of consciousness. All these things are accepted by Islam. But no one can interpret "the truth of science means the discovery of reality." Because, for example, the image you have of a space several kilometers away with mountains, plains, sea, trees, animals and humans in itYou are not compatible with the findings of scientists. Because scientific research says that the image of this space is very small in certain parts of nerves and cells, but "its magnitude is obtained by adaptation to external reality by man by a kind of analogy." For example, the analogy that the face of his body, which is there through seeing, with the reality of the body that he perceives intuitively, uses the same relation in all visions.
Those who do not believe in this principle in fact not only deny science but also deny matter itself.Science and perception are immutable. Just because we understand changes in matter and nature does not mean that
Our own understanding and knowledge of this subject is changing. Rather, our knowledge is fixed.
Movement is nothing but being and not being. Because everything that moves is and is not in an instant.In "becoming" existence and non-existence are together. Thus, by understanding motion and becoming, the concept of gradual and fluid existence is proved. Dialecticians also accept this principle. And are called the principle of contradiction. And introduce the triangle of thesis, antithesis and synthesis. Islamic philosophy also believes in the principle of contradiction. And in principle, evolution does not occur if there is no conflict in objects....
Yikes- existential mad libs. I really doubt that a better understanding of English would result in any better sense.
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Last edited by turingtest; 21st August 2021 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:18 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Thanks. I read one of the claimants. My article is different from his.
It's different to virtually all of them in that it not only contains no evidence of the supernatural, it offers no hope of ever providing any.
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:21 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It's different to virtually all of them in that it not only contains no evidence of the supernatural, it offers no hope of ever providing any.

I would say that that makes it similar to the others rather than different.
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:25 AM   #374
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Anyway, heydarian saeed, can you explain how your prediction that the Earth is expanding agrees with scientific findings?

Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
pay attention; That is, we have expanded and how well we are expanding the earth. This does not mean that the earth is flat and does not contradict its sphericity. In this verse, he does not mention the shape of the earth at all. He only says that we have spread the earth because it is ready for my life and yours - for my and your residence and urban development - for my and your agriculture and ... and how well we are spreading the earth for you human beings ...
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:39 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I would say that that makes it similar to the others rather than different.
Claims that were testable, and in some cases got as far as being tested, are very different to the ones the OP is making. Those tests could indeed have established the existence of the supernatural, had it existed. That is not even a theoretical possibility for the approach the OP is taking.
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:44 AM   #376
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Heydarian,

Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
we are expanding the earth
Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
The earth is constantly shrinking.
Please make up your mind, which is it?
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Old 21st August 2021, 06:58 AM   #377
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Heydarian, why are you ignoring me? You asked me for Quran quotes, I gave them to you, and you just asked me for the quotes again. Address my argument please.
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Old 21st August 2021, 07:01 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
This isn't a response to the post you quoted. The post you quoted was my stating that your explanation for the Quranic passages "describing a round earth" was wrong.

But let's look at the point you are making here. Are you claiming that the Quran does not teach that apostates should be killed?

Is that your claim? That the Quran absolutely does not say to kill apostates?
Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
It isn't the actions of some Muslims that I am talking about, it's the actual language of the book itself.



Kill the unbelievers.


Disbelievers are wrong doers simply for not believing.



Don't be friends with a non believer because they want to drag you to non belief. If they convert to Islam then that's fine but if they don't or if they go back to non belief kill them. All of them.


The greatest evil possible? No, not murder or rape or genocide. Rejection of Islam.



Non Muslims are evil.

This is not even a majority of the horrible intolerance and viciousness in the Quran. It's a handful of the literally hundreds of passages that preach supremacism and cruelty.

Only for Muslims. Doesn't matter how good a person you are if you are not a muslim you will burn in hell for eternity, to say nothing of the many, many places that book says that we as non believers should be degraded, treated harshly and killed.


Not what your holy book says. Your holy book says that if you aren't a Muslim you burn in hell. Doesn't matter how good you are.


Evidence for this please. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I think they are entirely fictional, but I'm willing to be convinced if you have some evidence for them.



A lot of people do it because they follow whatever "holy" book they were brought up to believe. Much of the Middle Eastern conflict has been fuelled by the fact that the Quran repeatedly describes the Jews as evil.

That sounds nice, but your book commands you to kill non believers. How can you say that you want to create a paradise on this world when your own book that is supposed to be the direct word of god commands you to kill people like me?
In case you have forgotten these are the most recent posts of mine that you ignored or attempted to handwave away.
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Old 21st August 2021, 07:49 AM   #379
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Well, folks, I think we're dealing with a mystic here. You may as well speak to a tree. When the mysticaloid breeze blows, the tree appears to move and make sounds. The swaying of the branches can be quite pleasing, and the sound of the air in the leaves can soothe us gently.

Briefly, in childhood; but we grow up. The mystic, I think, is one who does not grow up, and remains always enchanted by empty air.




I expected the software to turn enchanted into enchained. But alas, robots still rely on us to find words. They shouldn't do that.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:30 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
11. Land reduction:
The earth is constantly shrinking. Gas, heat, and energy are constantly released from the Earth's atmosphere and into space, and its volume and size are gradually reduced. It is estimated that at the beginning of its existence, the Earth had a volume approximately 2,000 times larger than its current volume. As it decreases continuously from the sun, it also decreases continuously from the earth so that the balance between gravity and repulsion between the sun and the earth remains constant.40,000 tons of space debris enters our planet every year. However, the earth becomes 50,000 tons lighter during this time. Why does the earth lose weight every year? Has the earth taken on a stubborn diet to lose weight, or has human sabotage on the earth reduced its weight? In the following, we will examine the reasons for the annual lightening of the earth.With a simple calculation we can calculate the reasons for the weight loss of the earth. Note that in this calculation, the rate of population growth and the launch of rockets and satellites into space has no effect on the total weight of the Earth. Because humans are part of the weight of the earth. On the other hand, rockets and satellites that are launched from Earth to space, return to Earth and have little effect on calculating the total weight of the Earth.In the following, you will first see the reasons for weight gain and then the weight loss of the earth.
Earth 40,000 tons of waste enters the earth annually.
Waste forms the surface material of the earth.
NASA has announced that the weight of the Earth increases by 160 tons every year due to global warming. In fact, as the earth warms, it absorbs more energy. Note that if energy is added to a system, the mass of matter in that system increases.So far, 40,000 tons of space waste and 160 tons due to global warming, which adds a total of 40,160 tons to the weight of the earth annually.
Lose weight!
The Earth's core is constantly losing energy. In fact, the Earth's core is similar to a massive nuclear reactor that uses different fuels. Loss of energy means loss of earth mass. 16 tons of earth mass is lost every year, which is insignificant compared to the masses that the earth acquires every year.Every year, 95,000 tons of hydrogen and 1,600 tons of helium are released from the earth's surface. These two materials are very light and therefore gravity can not hold them. So these materials fly into space. Thus, the earth loses 96,600 tons of weight every year.
With a simple calculation, you can see that the earth gains 40,000 tons of weight annually and loses 96,000 tons. Therefore, it loses about 50,000 tons of weight annually. In fact, the weight of the earth decreases by 0.00000000000000001% every year compared to the previous year.
Weight loss that we do not understand and scientists have recently realized, only with advanced research tools, while the Qur'an reports more than 14 centuries ago !!!
The book of the Qur'an in the seventh century AD revealed this scientific phenomenon and stated it in two verses.
In Surah Ra'd. Verse 41
Translation: Have they not seen that we [always] come and reduce from around this earth, and it is God who rules. And there is no deterrent to his judgment, and he audits quickly.
In Surah Anbiya ', verse 44
Translation: Rather, We provided them and their fathers with prosperity for a long time. Do they not see that we come and reduce the earth from its surroundings? Will they still win?
The final conclusion of the above scientific discussion: ....
Both surah' Rad ( 13.41) and Al Anbiya ( 21.44) are referring to the reduction of control of other religions on the land. Not to a reduction in the size of the earth. See the footnotes in the Yusuf Ali and Pickthall translations
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:51 AM   #381
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Heydarian, I see you are using a translation by Uthman Taha. So far I have found your translations and their meaning differ significantly from the translations I have access to.
I suspect your translation is not accurate, and may even falsify the Arabic meaning to make it more believable. There is another translation that does this by Rashad Khalifa and it was rejected by mainstream Muslims. I will download your translation to make comparisons, to see how far from accuracy it is.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:00 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hi. very well. You convinced him that there is no god and that Muhammad is not his prophet. Were you able to unite him? And prove to him that he is not God and that Muhammad is not his prophet. Were you able to? Tell me too.

No. I am not trying to take religion away from people. It was actually two Muslims that visited an atheist forum, and tried to convince us that their god exists. When encountering resistance they just left. Nobody on either side changed opinion.

It is quite common for religious believers to go to a forum with atheists or skeptics in order to convert the infidels, just like you do. It is also quite common for religious believers to be completely surprised when they find that there are valid counter-arguments against their arguments. And they invariably disappear without staying to argue their case.

You represent another kind that we unfortunately also see: the believer who completely ignores the counter-arguments, and just carries on as if there was no counter-argument.
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Old 21st August 2021, 12:03 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
... Continue the method;
7. Existence of life in space:
After the discovery of the earliest traces of life on one of the meteorites that landed from space to Earth, the scientist's space travels began to explore space creatures. They later discovered that there was some water on Mars and other planets, and their overall conclusion was that life probably existed there.It can almost be said that astronomers agree that life could exist on other planets.
This fact was discovered in the 21st century, .
I have never heard of a meteorite having traces of life on it. I could be wrong but others on this forum will doubtlessly know. As for there being life on other planets this is not as you say a 'fact' because it has never been proved.

I actually believe there probably are many inhabited planets, But as I say it is not proved, and is conjecture.
Surah Shura you quote is (42.29)
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Last edited by Scorpion; 21st August 2021 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 21st August 2021, 12:15 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never heard of a meteorite having traces of life on it. I could be wrong but others on this forum will doubtlessly know.
Probably a reference to this story:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/space/l...rite-alh84001/

Also not proven, is the short version.
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Old 21st August 2021, 12:20 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have never heard of a meteorite having traces of life on it. I could be wrong but others on this forum will doubtlessly know. As for there being life on other planets this is not as you say a 'fact' because it has never been proved.

I actually believe there probably are many inhabited planets, But as I say it is not proved, and is conjecture.
Surah Shura you quote is (42.29)
Some traces have been found in meteorites that may indicate the presence of very simple life, but nothing conclusive as other explanations may fit better. Panspermia is a valid hypothesis but remains unproven.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia#Case_studies
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Old 21st August 2021, 12:32 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
It is strange that in the Qur'an the word "space" is not used at all, but the sky is mentioned with the word "building: building". Consider this verse as an example:In (Surah Al-Baqarah. Verse 22)
Translation: He (God) Who made the earth for you a (broad) carpet and the sky a building (raised).
In the other verse, exactly the same truth is mentioned. And in (Surah Shams, verse 5)
Translation: And I swear by the sky and the one who built the sky.
All these verses show that the Qur'an is very scientifically accurate and that is the reason for the legitimacy of this book...
Your Quote of surah Al Baqarah 2.22 is not like most other translations I have.
Yusuf Ali says, at 2.22
Who has made the earth your couch and the heavens your canopy

Pickthall says at 2.22
Who has appointed the earth as a resting place for you and the sky a canopy.

Neither verse uses the word building, and in any case the sky is not a building. nor is it a canopy. It is obvious Muhammad thought the sky was some kind of structure, and it says the stars are lamps. It also says the stars are missiles to throw at devils. Quran 67.5
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 21st August 2021, 01:26 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
9. Cosmic smoke
For a long time, scientists thought that there was space dust in the universe, but recently they discovered that what they thought was dust was "cosmic smoke," which is similar to the smoke we know. There are huge amounts of this smoke in the cosmos, which is caused by the explosions of the beginning of creation. Experiments show that the particles of this smoke do not resemble dust particles. The formation of this smoke dates back to billions of years ago at the beginning of the creation of the world.Interestingly, the Qur'an says this about the beginning of the creation of the universe. Translation:
(Surah Fussilat, verse 11)
Translation: He then created the sky while it was in the form of smoke.
The quoted verse Surah Fussilat is number (41.11) I do not know if there is smoke in the universe so cannot comment. Anyone have any info on this?
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 21st August 2021, 01:48 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
(Surah An-Naba ', verse 12)
Translation: And above you We have built seven firm (heavens) firmly.
These heavens are the same as the seven heavens.
Al Naba is verse (78.12)

Dear Heydarian , What are the seven heavens?
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:14 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I'd say it's better to find out what the universe is really like, even if the truth is less consoling that I would wish, than to twist the meaning of verses in an ancient book (containing many unpleasant and divisive passages) so that they appear to suggest that some recently discovered scientific facts were known to its authors, even though they very obviously were not.

Apart from which, slavish devotion to this awful book clearly does not result in "a beautiful world for a safe life". Not for educated, independent women like me, anyway.
Hello dear friend of the association. I am very glad that you introduced yourself. Your wishes and views are admirable. And all free human beings agree with this theory. I have no prejudice against the ancient book you mentioned, although it is the Bible of our religion and I love it. Well, I say to create a beautiful world (which is really beautiful), let's see if this world was created by chance? And matter alone has the ability to build this great world?
If it really is, prove it to everyone. And if not, we must first understand who is building the great world? And what is its purpose? Why should man, who is the most complex and superior being in this world, be born? What is his job? What is its purpose? How should it be? My point is to find out the reasons. Realize the goal. And of course in a completely logical and scientific way. Not just in the form of false claims and words without evidence. What should we do now? Where to start? What tools and equipment can be used to answer these questions? According to what mechanism do we reach the cause and the goal? When we reach the cause and the goal, what is our plan to create a beautiful world in which human society can live together without worries and as "equal and equal"?
I am looking for these issues. I am looking for this comprehensive and healthy plan for human society and the beautiful world. That the culture is excellent, without discrimination and free from any thought of slavery.
Thank you for listening to me. And post. Thanks again.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:25 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Hello dear friend of the association. I am very glad that you introduced yourself. Your wishes and views are admirable. And all free human beings agree with this theory. I have no prejudice against the ancient book you mentioned, although it is the Bible of our religion and I love it. Well, I say to create a beautiful world (which is really beautiful), let's see if this world was created by chance? And matter alone has the ability to build this great world?
If it really is, prove it to everyone. And if not, we must first understand who is building the great world? And what is its purpose? Why should man, who is the most complex and superior being in this world, be born? What is his job? What is its purpose? How should it be?

A creationist as well, then. How well does that agree with the findings of science?

Quote:
My point is to find out the reasons. Realize the goal. And of course in a completely logical and scientific way. Not just in the form of false claims and words without evidence.

So far, you are failing dismally.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:35 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Al Naba is verse (78.12)

Dear Heydarian , What are the seven heavens?
Hello dear friend of the association. The meaning of the verse; It refers to the six events of the Big Bang. After the first sky, the neutron star reached the Big Bang stage and the next sky came into being. And this process is repeated six times. As you know, the universe was created by the greatness of creation and the heavens in six periods of the Big Bang, each about 18 billion light-years away. Seven Skies is the result of six Big Bangs. Which is "mentioned" in this verse.
And now we are in heaven or the seventh period. And almost 14 billion light-years have passed since then. And almost 4 billion light years later (according to human science) the seventh Big Bang event will occur and the eighth sky, which is the world and the world of the Hereafter (Resurrection), will be created. Of course, this talk is taken from astronomical and up-to-date calculations as well as Quranic references. But no one knows the exact story. And maybe it's a hypothesis.
And now we are in heaven or the seventh period. And almost 14 billion light-years have passed since then. And almost 4 billion light years later (according to human science) the seventh Big Bang event will occur and the eighth sky, which is the world and the world of the Hereafter (Resurrection), will be created. And that he says we built the seven heavens above you, that is, above you, is because we humans assume that the sky is above us, but in reality this is not the case, but we and the planet Earth are floating in the sky. And our relationship with the sky is transverse, not longitudinal. And these conversations are taken from astronomical and up-to-date calculations as well as Quranic references. But no one knows the exact story. And maybe it's a hypothesis.
Thank you for your attention and for the post you leave.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:39 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
A creationist as well, then. How well does that agree with the findings of science?




So far, you are failing dismally.
Why? Tell me.
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Old 21st August 2021, 10:41 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The quoted verse Surah Fussilat is number (41.11) I do not know if there is smoke in the universe so cannot comment. Anyone have any info on this?
Yes there is. Please search the relevant sites. Thanks
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:33 PM   #394
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... Read more:
"Abstraction" and "immateriality of the soul" are obvious principles for experts. In a way that denying it requires proving it. Because how can the material properties and characteristics of brain cells discuss the origin and type of their existence and give a reason to prove or disprove it? In other words, those who do not believe in the celibacy of the human soul are asked, "Is this a feature of your brain cells that argues for the negation of celibacy?"Do these arguments and denials, mechanical properties, arise from brain cells algebraically according to the law of determinism? Therefore, the arguments given to prove the existence or abstraction of the soul are to punish and awaken the unconscious conscience. Because of the obvious dissimilarity of sensual states with other material characteristics, the deniers of celibacy have to resort to justifications that are not accepted by human intellect.
Proponents of the materiality of the soul who research the soul and the spirit The ultimate interpretation they offer of the soul is a material interpretation of it. In the opinion of these people, the existence of the abstraction of the soul is not provable. In fact, this group believes that in the human realm, there is nothing but the body and material organs! The best interpretation of the soul is that the soul is a feature of one of the parts and organs of the body, the brain. Of course, those who consider the abstraction of the soul unacceptable in explaining and interpreting the truth of the soul, offered different views, and here we refer to only one of those theories, the theory of "this" which is related to the question:
The theory of "similarity" is a theory in the philosophy of mind according to which the states and processes of the mind are the same as the states and processes of the brain. According to the theory of identity, for example, when you see something or experience pain, it is not that these states are something beyond the activities of the brain and are only associated with those activities, but that these mental states are exactly the same states of the brain. .
According to this theory, any kind of mental state is identical with a kind of physical state, or more precisely, brain state. For example, pain is always the same as shooting a nerve. Of course, the concept of state of mind is different from the concept of state of mind, but the two are one thing outside. This theory is also referred to as "physicalism".
Many Western thinkers (such as Thomas Hobbes, Pierre Gassandi, GGCsmart, and John Searle) consider the theory of identity to be the best interpretation of the soul. The theory of similarity faces many problems and challenges and can be debated and criticized from different angles. Because this theory claims that sensual states are the same as physical properties! That is, the feeling of pain is the same as a nervous breakdown. Consciousness is the change of cells and neurons. But, as we have mentioned in the discussion of the reason for the abstraction of the soul, science is one of the basic properties of the soul which bears no resemblance to the material properties and cannot be considered as material properties.
The claim that the sensation of pain is, for example, the same as a nervous breakdown is a claim that has not yet been explained by any acceptable scientific statement. According to functionalists; Why should it be assumed that every organism must be made of the same chemicals that we are made to have a state that can be accurately identified as a state of pain? One of the problems of the theory of inequality is the confusion of scientific and philosophical issues. To explain that; When mental states such as consciousness or pain occur, there is no doubt that changes occur in the body's physique. Two questions arise here; First, what is the nature and form of consciousness and pain?
The second question is what is the function of the brain and what processes take place in the brain during perception? Neurologists do not answer the question, what is the nature of consciousness and pain? Rather, their job is to explain how the brain works and to describe the processes that take place during perception. Similarly in the field of biophysics, the question "What is life?" Is.
Non-experts do not understand the difference between these two questions and by confusing these two questions, they make a philosophical mistake and think that empirical science has found the answer to the first question. In the words of John Hick: We all - despite all our differences - take it for granted that for every change that occurs in consciousness, there is a corresponding change in a part of the brain. But the danger that has permeated most writings is that we consider "solidarity" to be "identical." Although there is ample evidence for mind-brain correlation,
As long as we imagine the accumulation or breadth of this evidence to prove this identity of mind and brain, we have made a blunder. As Steven Rose says, it is clear that; "The existence of solidarity is not the reason for the existence of a cause."
...
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:43 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Well, I say to create a beautiful world (which is really beautiful), let's see if this world was created by chance? And matter alone has the ability to build this great world?
Yes, it's possible that the universe could exist without having been created by a separate entity. There are several theories as to how that could be the case.

If you propose that a separate entity created it, you then have to explain how that separate entity came into existence, so you are no further forward. In fact you're worse off, because you have just replaced the question "where did the universe come from?" with the even more difficult question "where did God come from?"

If your answer to that is "God has always existed" then the idea of something existing without being created is clearly acceptable to you, in which case there's no need to invoke a god at all, as the something could just as easily be the universe.

In summary, proposing the existence of god(s) does not provide any definitive answers, it just adds unnecessary further questions.

Quote:
If it really is, prove it to everyone.
No, that's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who proposes the existence of something (in this case God) for which there is no need or evidence.
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:47 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Your Quote of surah Al Baqarah 2.22 is not like most other translations I have.
Yusuf Ali says, at 2.22
Who has made the earth your couch and the heavens your canopy

Pickthall says at 2.22
Who has appointed the earth as a resting place for you and the sky a canopy.

Neither verse uses the word building, and in any case the sky is not a building. nor is it a canopy. It is obvious Muhammad thought the sky was some kind of structure, and it says the stars are lamps. It also says the stars are missiles to throw at devils. Quran 67.5
No dear friend. This is a strange meaning you put in the post. Muhammad did not say anything about himself. There was only one messenger (the prophet; that is, one who brings a message to others). He is not literate at all to know what is going on in the universe? All he said were messages inspired by God. Muhammad has no other matter. A human being like other human beings.
And ... Muhammad and others imagined the star to be just lights that seem to be stuck on the roof of the sky! And they had no other idea. But later God inspired Muhammad with the Qur'an that; These that are in the sky are not lights attached to it but stars. And move in a specific orbit in the sky and flow. And for demons, he does not use the word star, but says meteorite! (Surah As-Saaffat, verses 6 and 10)
Thank you
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:49 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The quoted verse Surah Fussilat is number (41.11) I do not know if there is smoke in the universe so cannot comment. Anyone have any info on this?
Cosmic dust contains particles of all sizes, most of which are as small, or even smaller, than those that make up smoke. It's still called cosmic dust, however, not cosmic smoke. And once again, no impartial observer would read that verse and think it was referring to cosmic dust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_dust
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Old 21st August 2021, 11:59 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by heydarian saeed View Post
Why? Tell me.

Because you are providing nothing more than words without evidence, false claims, and logical fallacies.
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Old 22nd August 2021, 12:09 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Yes, it's possible that the universe could exist without having been created by a separate entity. There are several theories as to how that could be the case.

If you propose that a separate entity created it, you then have to explain how that separate entity came into existence, so you are no further forward. In fact you're worse off, because you have just replaced the question "where did the universe come from?" with the even more difficult question "where did God come from?"

If your answer to that is "God has always existed" then the idea of something existing without being created is clearly acceptable to you, in which case there's no need to invoke a god at all, as the something could just as easily be the universe.

In summary, proposing the existence of god(s) does not provide any definitive answers, it just adds unnecessary further questions.
I have studied other theories about how the universe was created. None of them answer definitively. And in response to their doubts and ambiguities, there are many problems. This is a philosophical discussion, madam, not a scientific discussion. pay attention ; Science can not find answers to these questions. Only philosophy can search and answer. That is, the answer to these questions is not in the field of science but in the field of philosophy. And philosophy has answered. I do not insist on this and I do not want to express different philosophical ways. And basically I can not and the relevant experts must answer. I mean philosophers.



No, that's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who proposes the existence of something (in this case God) for which there is no need or evidence.
And the most comprehensive answer is given by Islamic philosophy based on the Qur'an. I recommend you. Of course, read the book of Islamic philosophers in two groups: philosophy of nature and existential philosophy, if you wish. Abu Ali Sina, the great master of the philosophy of nature, and Mulla Sadra, the great master of the philosophy of existence. He has written several books in this field.
If you wish, choose and read the relevant book from these professors of Islamic philosophy to find a comprehensive answer. Of course, materialist philosophers have also written and explained books on various ideas in this field. Like Max Weber - Nietzsche - Freud and ...
Thank you
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Old 22nd August 2021, 12:12 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Because you are providing nothing more than words without evidence, false claims, and logical fallacies.
Hi.
Apparently you have no explanation!?
Thank you. Wait to see. Good luck to you.
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