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Old 18th September 2021, 08:18 AM   #281
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, he is the Head Honch of Estlines.
You didn't know that at the time. You were presenting Meek's then-unknown source as "reputable and reliable" before you even knew who it was.

Quote:
It is his job to know.
It's his job to advocate the interests of the company he heads. The prevalence of old sea mines on the seafloor in that area is hardly a secret, but what he should have known -- as the head of a passenger line plying the Baltic -- is what little danger those munitions had posed to shipping. MS Estonia would have been the only ship in decades, over thousands of yearly voyages through those waters, to have been sunk by a leftover mine. Johanson plainly bases his opinion not on what he knows, but what he doesn't know -- namely, how his ferry could have otherwise sunk so fast.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:22 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
At least my posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced, even if people don't like them. (cf. James Meek.)
You pilfered a citation from someone else, pretended you had read the primary source, and inferred your claim from the headline alone. You are not intellectually honest.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:31 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you think Meek a reputable journalist for a respected British broadsheet, the GRAUNIAD would have published the story if he did not think it credible?
Yes.

Quote:
He is not writing for the SUN or NATIONAL ENQUIRER where any old gossip will do.
Quoting the CEO of the line the sunken ship belongs to is not gossip-mongering. What such a person has to say in light of such tragedies is newsworthy. It may not be credible or cogent, but it's what the journalist has a duty to report regardless of his own personal beliefs.

Quote:
Enter James Meek with his reasonable story that Estonia 'might have been sunk by a mine claim'. Note the word 'claim'.
You've shown no evidence that Meek found the claim reasonable. He quotes the CEO because what the CEO says is newsworthy. Luckily Meek published many more articles on the loss of Estonia that week than just the one you cite to. We don't have to resort to your second-guessing and handwaving to know which explanations he though more reasonable at the time.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:43 AM   #284
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I wonder if Vixen thinks that journalists who report what Donald Trump has said must give credence to his inane utterances because they are bound by journalistic ethics to only report people saying credible things? Or that a publication like the Guardian mustn't or shouldn't report on what Donald Trump says because what he says is crazy or bigoted or otherwise not credible?

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Old 18th September 2021, 08:45 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Hack' is slang for a journalist.
Hack is slang for a poor journalist. No one here has claimed Meek is a poor journalist. The only claim made with respect to him states that he is probably not an expert on sea mines, so trusting his authority on the subject may not be the best information.

Quote:
It is not necessarily derogatory, it is also affectionate.
I've never seen it used that way, and I know several reporters for the Pulitzer-Prize-winning newspaper in my town.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_writer

Quote:
The point being made is that Meek is a first class professional journalist who is not the type of gutter-press hack who writes sex-obsessed stories about celebrities but who is sent abroad for serious news reports.
No one here has claimed that. Literally you are the only person in this thread to attach such nasty words to Meek, even if it's to try to pretend your critics have done it.

Reading your exchange with Mojo over this point has led me to believe you are irredeemably dishonest. Yes, you must be bothered to correct errors you make if you want to be taken seriously. Conveniently forgetting what you previously argued, completely fabricating arguments to shove into your critics mouths, and out of the blue accusing them of racism are not just minor semantic quibbles. You are fundamentally failing at carrying on an adult conversation.
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:07 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Conveniently forgetting what you previously argued, completely fabricating arguments to shove into your critics mouths, and out of the blue accusing them of racism are not just minor semantic quibbles. You are fundamentally failing at carrying on an adult conversation.
Also accusing her critics of making crass jokes about the victims of the disaster, accusing her critics of wanting to censor the testimony of survivors, and accusing her critics of only believing what the likes of Fox News and the Daily Mail have to say about current events.

None of which her critics have actually done.

Either she genuinely can't remember and can't follow what has been said in this thread or she is guilty of naked intellectual dishonesty.
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:14 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? So not like JayUtah's chief engineer of the Titanic or your fighter pilot dad, an expert in noise?

What? What the heck do you even mean with this "response" to my post?
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:18 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Would', 'could', 'should'. Pure conjecture. Sheer fantasy. No sources, references or citations.

Goddammit. I knew I shouldn't have shelled out for my new billet-steel-cased weapons-grade Irony-o-Meter. I warned the people who sold it to me that it was probably going to face one of the sternest possible tests, and they airily assured me that far surpassed every military specification and could meet every challenge with ease.

How surprised will they be when I mail them back my newly-demolished machine and demand my money back...?
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:22 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Nope, people questioned your claim that Meek agreed with the claim that a mine could have sunk the ship. He didn't agree with the claim, he merely reported the claim that the Estline head honcho made, but you said that Meek agreed with the claim that a mine could have sunk the ship when he did no such thing.

You have been repeatedly corrected on that and refuse to acknowledge that you were wrong and have launched into a bizarre series of invective posts about gutter hacks and sex-obsessed yellow press, which has nothing to do with anything anybody has said.

I'll repeat what someone else has said, it's hard to know if you're genuinely incapable of reading and following the thread and remembering what you and others have said or if you're just that intellectually dishonest.

I personally think her posts clearly demonstrate the latter over and above the former (but of course I wouldn't rule out a fair dollop of the former either)
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:30 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
A lot of people have been killed over mine claims. See the Treasure of Sierra Madre.

But I guess "killed over" is not the same as "sunk by a mine claim".
Citations?! We ain't got no citations! We don't need no citations! We don't have to show you any stinkin' citations!
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:31 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Come off it. There were seventeen nationalities on board. Swedes, Finns, Estonians do not mutually understand each other.

The rescue operation was extremely stressful for the helicopter crews, fearing the wind would throw the helicopter into the sea, the winches not being strong enough to bear the weight of people stricken by cramp barely able to move, the divers having to swim in a rough sea to reach people and get them out.

They then had to hurry the survivors to medical treatment and then return for the next lot of survivors. Likewise, the medical staff were only interested in supplying medical treatment. Each survivor on the nearby ships, the Mariella and Silja were kept separate from each other and from other passengers and were each interviewed by the security police once they were on their own ward in hospital and ready to give their first-hand early account.

No way would members of the navy, the coastguards, the helicopter rescue crew or the medics interfere with this process. It was not in their remit. As most passenger survivors recounted hearing a series of bangs and/or a collision, where did Bildt get his 'bow visor' fell off scenario from? Fair enough as conjecture but to make it the firm announcement as being the cause and prohibiting bringing up the bodies was bound to cause an outcry amongst the relatives and suspicions of a cover up.

No doubt Bildt was advised by his intelligence officers which raises the question, why is the incident 'classified top secret' if the Swedes had nothing to hide. If it was sabotage - and their is a hole in the starboard which has been kept secret - then whoever was responsible was the cause of the mass murder of a thousand people and should be brought to justice.

Instead we have a 'classified' label to protect the UK, USA and Swedish security forces, supposedly in the interests of national security but more likely to cover the back of the then POTUS Bill Clinton, who put in the order for former Soviet Union military secrets and poodles UK - PM John Major who would have signed off the UK signatory to the treaty - and Sweden, the three countries who were helping Estonia develop its own intelligence agency.

Source(s)? Or just rabid speculation?

You spew out this sort of bilge, yet in almost the same breath you mockingly reject (eminently feasible) suggestions that the shore-based management at the ship's owners Estline might rather desperately want to try to learn why their ship had sunk. And that an extremely obvious place to start would be to talk - in person or on the phone - with at least some of those crew members who had survived? And that senior politicians in Sweden and elsewhere in the region might, in turn, urgently want to try to find out why the ship had sunk - if for no other reason but to rule out military subterfuge by a foreign power. And that the obvious first place for the politicians to start would be to contact the ship's owners?


There's no need for mystery here. There's no need for Bildt to have learned about the bow visor via "briefings from his intelligence officers". There's no need whatsoever for any cloak-and-dagger bollocks. The ship sank because it was poorly designed and even more poorly maintained, to the point where a single mechanical stress failure (with a total lack of redundancy) set of an inevitable chain of events that culminated in the total loss of the ship. That's what happened here.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:44 AM   #292
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So now it was a mine. Not submarine, mini-submarine, KGB/Spetsnaz commandos, and or terrorists.

Here's the thing, a mine detonating IS LOUD. We had one wash up here about 25 years ago and they blew it up on the beach. You could hear that thing from 12 miles away.

I'm certain of two things: Had it been a mine everyone on the bridge would have known it was a mine meaning the captain wouldn't have left at the end of his shift. And they would have said something during their MAYDAY calls.

All that was communicated was that Estonia was taking on water and listing badly. That meant the bridge crew had no idea what was happening.

Should be pointed out that a mine would detonate under the ship unless it was just floating around, and the crack/hole in the side of Estonia IS TOO SMALL to be caused by a mine of any kind.

I can't wait until we get to the "Aliens did it" part of this.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:53 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh for crying out oud. These guys literally faced death in the face. Do you really think they would even begin to be experts into the cause of the accident. She-eesh.

Rolf Sörman, first-hand eyewitness survivor says:

Baltic Times

How could any responsible person know as of Day One the cause of the accident before (a) the ship was even located or (b) there had even been an initial investigation.
This a prime example of you wanting it both ways. You've spent half the thread arguing that the survivor testimony must be treated as gospel, but here you are claiming it would have been worthless in the hours immediately after being pulled from the sea. What makes you think their memories improved over time? Why would a statement made a few hours after rescue be any less reliable than one made weeks or months later?

Again, they've now surveyed the Estonia twice. The visor got knocked off in rough seas. There is a crack along the seems of the hull plating. There is no evidence of an explosion. They will actively dive on Estonia next summer. These are the facts.
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Old 18th September 2021, 10:54 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
So now it was a mine. Not submarine, mini-submarine, KGB/Spetsnaz commandos, and or terrorists.

Here's the thing, a mine detonating IS LOUD. We had one wash up here about 25 years ago and they blew it up on the beach. You could hear that thing from 12 miles away.

I'm certain of two things: Had it been a mine everyone on the bridge would have known it was a mine meaning the captain wouldn't have left at the end of his shift. And they would have said something during their MAYDAY calls.

All that was communicated was that Estonia was taking on water and listing badly. That meant the bridge crew had no idea what was happening.

Should be pointed out that a mine would detonate under the ship unless it was just floating around, and the crack/hole in the side of Estonia IS TOO SMALL to be caused by a mine of any kind.

Yes, but apart from that, what reason do you have for thinking it wasn’t a mine?
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:20 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do read the GUARDIAN report, which states:



Do you really think these guys are uneducated about the layout of their own seas?

No. I think they're perfectly well educated about "the layout of their own seas". They know, for example, that not one single ship - out of the tens of thousands of times this sea lane has been sailed since WWII - has even hit a mine, let alone been lost to an exploding mine. So they know that in reality, the chance that this ship sank because it was hit by a leftover WWII mine is as close to zero as makes no odds.

They also know that it would be very strongly to their own advantage if the cause of the sinking was nothing to do with the ship itself or their maintenance/crewing of it. Therefore they'd know that if (and that's all it ever was: an "if") the ship had been sunk by a UXM, that would by far be the "least bad" situation for them.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:28 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Meek didn't think his source was reliable he would not have bothered to quote it.

Whilst a professional journalist is bound by his professional ethics to present a balanced article at the same time they still have to make a decision as to whether the source of their story is reliable and they are expected to check the reliability of their sources. In other words they won't publish something that in their professional opinion and training does not ring true.

So in that sense, Meek did indeed believe that the Chief of Estline's opinion was a newsworthy and one, as spoken by a maritime expert.


He is not quoting some unnamed keyboard warrior on a conspiracy theory chat forum.


So, as I said, it is not conspiracy theory, it is current affairs.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

Look: suppose that Emmanuel Macron (just for example) said, in an interview with journalist X, that he suspected aliens might have been responsible for originating the current covid pandemic? For X, the veracity, falsifiability, reliability or credibility of Macron's claim would be of zero relevance or importance in the first instance. All that would be important at that point was that a person of Macron's position and status had made that claim. X would have filed his "French President Macron claims aliens may have planted covid onto Earth" story as rapidly as he possibly could.

And precisely the same logic applies to the "ship might have hit a mine" claim in our matter.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:36 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This a prime example of you wanting it both ways. You've spent half the thread arguing that the survivor testimony must be treated as gospel, but here you are claiming it would have been worthless in the hours immediately after being pulled from the sea.
Didn't Vixen claim earlier in the thread that witness testimony taken very soon after a traumatic event was particularly valuable because the memory was vivid and fresh in their minds?
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:40 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Context is all. The original context is London John claiming that no way would anyone think it was a mine. So I pointed out that actually there was such a claim.


Do keep up.

No. LondonJohn (no space between "London" and "John") made no such claim. LondonJohn said that it was a nigh-on impossibility that the ship had - in reality - been sunk by a mine (of WWII era or any other).

That the head of the company which owned and operated the ship made some baseless speculation about a mine - when he himself must obviously have known how vanishingly improbable a scenario that would have been - is neither here nor there. Especially when those two dirty words "ulterior motives" come into play - as they most definitely did there.

See, it's also not impossible, for example, that the ship was struck by a meteorite that just happened to fall through the Earth's atmosphere at exactly the right time, in the right place, to collide with the ship's hull and cause it to sink. But in relative probability terms, it's even less probable (but not perhaps by as much as you might think) than the "hit a leftover mine" theory.


Oh and lastly, you seem repeatedly to overlook the fact that whatever might have been claimed (and for whatever reason) in the immediate aftermath of the sinking, it wasn't long at all before investigators were able to recover and analyse evidence. And had the ship hit a mine (it didn't), there would have been tell-tale signs of pitting and stretching of the hull at a visual and microscopic level, and there would have been easily-identifiable residues of explosives and explosives by-products. None of those were present. This ship did not hit a mine. End of story.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:47 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A Baltic maritime expert likely knows better than London John as to whether there are mines in the Baltic Sea.

LMAO.

Do you perhaps therefore think that this "Baltic maritime expert" knows - as well as LondonJohn does - precisely how many of the tens of thousands of ship voyages in recognised shipping lanes in the Baltic, in the 50 years (at that point) since the end of WWII, had actually resulted in a ship being hit by an exploding mine?

(Hint: the answer is 4/4 minus one. I suspect that the "Baltic maritime expert" would have known that, don't you?)
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:57 AM   #300
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If the Estonia was sunk by an unexploded leftover WWII mine, then why would Carl Bildt make up a story about it being sunk by the bow visor coming off in a storm and letting water in that caused the ship to sink and why would the JAIC then go to the trouble of concocting a fraudulent investigation and report that affirmed that false story?
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:57 AM   #301
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nt

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Old 18th September 2021, 11:59 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you think Meek a reputable journalist for a respected British broadsheet, the GRAUNIAD would have published the story if he did not think it credible? He is not writing for the SUN or NATIONAL ENQUIRER where any old gossip will do. GRAUNIAD readers are sandal-wearing middle-class lefties who are conscious of climate change, social inequality and the need for reform. They could not give a toss about sensationalist stories. Enter James Meek with his reasonable story that Estonia 'might have been sunk by a mine claim'. Note the word 'claim'.
Exactly vixen. You are starting to catch on. Note the word 'claim'. What do you think it means?
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Old 18th September 2021, 12:45 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
So now it was a mine. Not submarine, mini-submarine, KGB/Spetsnaz commandos, and or terrorists.

Here's the thing, a mine detonating IS LOUD. We had one wash up here about 25 years ago and they blew it up on the beach. You could hear that thing from 12 miles away.

I'm certain of two things: Had it been a mine everyone on the bridge would have known it was a mine meaning the captain wouldn't have left at the end of his shift. And they would have said something during their MAYDAY calls.

All that was communicated was that Estonia was taking on water and listing badly. That meant the bridge crew had no idea what was happening.

Should be pointed out that a mine would detonate under the ship unless it was just floating around, and the crack/hole in the side of Estonia IS TOO SMALL to be caused by a mine of any kind.

I can't wait until we get to the "Aliens did it" part of this.
As I've said before: Conspiracy theorists generally have no idea what they are talking about. Literally no *idea*. No coherent image/model/hypothesis of what went down, who did it, nor why. Just a vague insinuation of "somehow, somewhere, somebody I don't like did something bad and fooled everybody except me."

So, Vixen. What do you think actually happened?
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Old 18th September 2021, 12:55 PM   #304
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I think I can guess what the answer will be. "I don't know, I'm just asking questions!"

Speaking of which, Vixen. Are you an expert on the KGB and have your interlocutors made callous jokes, and if so please link to them.
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Old 18th September 2021, 01:01 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post

Oh and lastly, you seem repeatedly to overlook the fact that whatever might have been claimed (and for whatever reason) in the immediate aftermath of the sinking, it wasn't long at all before investigators were able to recover and analyse evidence. And had the ship hit a mine (it didn't), there would have been tell-tale signs of pitting and stretching of the hull at a visual and microscopic level, and there would have been easily-identifiable residues of explosives and explosives by-products. None of those were present. This ship did not hit a mine. End of story.
There would be no need to look for microscopic or chemical evidence. It would be obvious if the ship had struck a WW2 German naval mine








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Old 18th September 2021, 01:21 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I think I can guess what the answer will be. "I don't know, I'm just asking questions!"
No, she's just reporting on current events.

Apparently the hypothesis that a Russian minisub attached a mine to the Estonia which caused it to sink is a current news event and not a conspiracy theory. I'm just a drooling Fox News junkie so I don't understand that.
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Old 18th September 2021, 01:30 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post

Here's the thing, a mine detonating IS LOUD. We had one wash up here about 25 years ago and they blew it up on the beach. You could hear that thing from 12 miles away.

I'm certain of two things: Had it been a mine everyone on the bridge would have known it was a mine meaning the captain wouldn't have left at the end of his shift. And they would have said something during their MAYDAY calls.
Well, some of the passengers heard a banging noise and the storm was loud.
Easy to miss this.

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Old 18th September 2021, 02:01 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Which 'experts' would have briefed him?

I thought you said he was the 'expert'?
Well he obviously was because unlike the posters here, he was aware of the historical mines at Utö.

Quote:
Johannes Johanson, the managing director of the firm, Estline, said he could not believe the power of the sea combined with technical weaknesses would have been enough to let water into the boat.

'We know that there were very big minefields in this region around Yuto, during the second world war,' he said.
James Meek, GUARDIAN 3.10.1994

And he is absolutely right. I assume 'Yuto' is a phonetical spelling of Utö, which is about 28 miles from Pargas/Parainen on the Finnish mainland.

A survey of mines done in 1940 showed an estimated over 920 between Vyberg and Utö. See map showing area of territorial water minefields

(Credit: Merimiinoitteet Suomen vesillä talvisodassa
ja Suomenlahdella vuonna 1941. pdf)

So Johanson is entirely correct. In fact, a Finnish warship the Ilmarinen was blown up by a mine and its wreck lies within 15 km of the Estonia.


Quote:
The armored ship Ilmarinen was a coastal armored ship completed in 1931 , which was the flagship of the Finnish Navy until its sinking in 1941. Ilmarinen and its sister ship Väinämöinen were the largest ships of the Finnish navy ever. Ilmarinen sank after colliding with a sea mine off Utö on September 13, 1941, when 271 men drowned.

<snip>

The wreck of the armored ship Ilmarinen was located after three years of exploration in 1990. The following year, six veterans rescued from the ship, Captain Huhta, the commander of Ilmarinen's heavy artillery, got to see the wreck in a mini-submarine . The wreck is upside down 25 nautical miles south of Utö at a depth of 70 meters. About 15 kilometers from the wreck of Ilmarinen is the sinking site of the passenger ship M / S Estonia, which sank in 1994 .
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panssarilaiva_Ilmarinen
As a matter of maritime interest. there also lies the wreck of the US Cargo Ship SS Park Victory nearby.

In addition, there are literally thousands of unexploded mines littering the region:

Quote:
According to Västerbottens Kuriren , hundreds of old sea mines were lurking in the Kvarken in 2010 . According to the magazine, up to 500 mines await in the sea off the coast of Umeå from Holmö to the Finnish side of the archipelago. According to the Swedish National Defense Research Institute, they are still life-threatening. [1]
During the war, 60,000 mines were dumped in the Gulf of Finland
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merimiina
Thus, the idea that 'a bow visor causing a ship to sink' is by no means 'more probable' than hitting a mine.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mines around Utö.jpg (96.1 KB, 5 views)
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:06 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
But you didn't give any sources, citations or references to the hypothesis that the Estonia might have been sank by a Russian submarine which was being sold to inexperienced third world buyers.

Either that hypothesis is yours or it is someone elses. If it is someone else's then you didn't cite them, source them or properly reference them, and you are repeatedly telling us that the hypotheses being put forth in this thread are not yours, you are merely reporting others claims, and you have said that your posts are cited, sourced and properly referenced.

Can you understand why people don't believe you when you say that your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced? They aren't.

Or that none of the fantastical hypotheses being forth are yours, but you are merely repeating others claims? There's a stunning lack of sources for lots of your lurid stories about mine laying submarines, torpedo shooting minisubs, bridge hijackings, etc.
The antics of the Former Soviet Union is common knowledge general history. Just look it up in Wikipedia.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:09 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
Who said anything about 'anybody'?



Who's disrespecting the survivors now?



So we shouldn't make to much of the eyewitness reports of 'bangs', etc.? What about the witness who reported seeing something white flash by in the water? The next time 'anybody' posts such reports I'll remember this.
There is a big difference between eyewitnesses interviewed in the presence of the police, with a witness and the start time, date and place of the recording noted, either on tape or by hand, together with the names of all those present and concluding with the end time and date plus signature of the eyewitness.

Any exchange of words between a survivor and his or her rescuers would be hearsay on the part of the rescuer and of little legal value.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:13 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
We've just had several years of the press dutifully reporting a very long line of Trump's falsehoods. Oh, eventually, they started saying that what Trump was saying is false, but not at the start. They simply said this is what Trump said.

That's the job of the press in normal times. You report newsworthy comments. Doing so doesn't imply credibility of any sort. You're only reporting what this person, whose comments are newsworthy for various reasons, said. Erstine's comments at the time of the accident would be newsworthy because of his position, so it's reasonable to report them.

Whether Erstine's comments were credible is not necessarily considered by the reporter. That's really for others to judge.
Political news is very different from developing news of a disaster. People know that politicians are skilled spin doctors and thus what they have to say is often carefully scripted to achieve a certain political effect.

Trump was damned by his own words. No comment needed to be added.

Estline's opinion, being the vessel operators, as to the possible cause of the accident is bound to be a carefully weighed consideration of probabilities based on skill and know how.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:15 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
Indeed. What Carl Bildt said in the immediate aftermath of the disaster is of interest *only* if we concede the premise that there was some sort of coverup right from the get go. It's not a resource for making the claim that there was one. To use it that way is to beg the question.

First establish that there is some reason to think a coverup happened. Then what Carl Bildt said will matter to the rest of the discussion
If the massive hole in the starboard was carefully omitted from mention by the JAIC - as it was - then there is obviously a cover up.

When will you notice the elephant in the room?
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:16 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Per this reasoning, every reporter who quoted Trump over the past several years was attesting to Trump's reliability.
Totally different genre.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:23 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Look, I don't really care about early conjectures regarding the cause, but let's look at this.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the survivors were evacuated to Sweden, right? And Johanson was in Estonia, right?

So, how is it that the Estline bosses were more likely to have access to the surviving crew than the Swedes?
The survivors were evacuated to three hospital locations: Mariehamn, which is the capital of the autonomous Åland Islands (it is geographically and politically Finnish because the open sea doesn't start until west this). Turku hospital which is nearby Parainen/Utö, the nearest land to the accident and Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm.


I assume the crew would have had NMT phones or hospital phones to ring their employers.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:23 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The antics of the Former Soviet Union is common knowledge general history. Just look it up in Wikipedia.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

You have spun tales about bridge hijackings, torpedo shooting minisubs, mine laying minisubs, accidents involving British or Swedish escort submarines, etc.

You have repeatedly claimed that you are merely the messenger and you're just reporting what's in the news or what others have claimed.

Yet none of these lurid stories have been cited, sourced or properly referenced by you and you claim that your posts are sourced, cited and properly referenced.

You think you can get away with saying that "the antics of the former Soviet is common knowledge general history" and not be called on it?

Is reading up on the antics of Russia or the Soviet Union going to let me know who came up with the idea that a mine laying Russian minisub might have been responsible for sinking Estonia? Or let me know who came up with the hypothesis that the Estonia was sank by a British submarine escorting it? Or that the Estonia was sank by a collision with a Russian submarine being sold to a third world buyer? Or that the Estonia was sank by a Russian minisub firing torpedos at it?

You said you are merely reporting others hypotheses and that your posts are properly sourced, cited and referenced, yet you provided nothing to back up these stories and you didn't even mention the people you supposedly came up with these claims that you are merely repeating.

The one attempt you made at providing a reference for who came up with one of your stories (the possibility of a bridge hijacking) involving quoting a source which said absolutely nothing about a bridge hijacking.

Do you think that telling people to read about the former Soviet Union's antics on Wikipedia after you've laid out these scenarios about torpedos and hijackings and mine-laying minisubs is actually citing, sourcing and properly referencing your posts, as you claim you do?

Pathetic.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:25 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I assume the crew would have had NMT phones or hospital phones to ring their employers.
Where's the cite, source and proper reference for this assumption?
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:25 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You didn't know that at the time. You were presenting Meek's then-unknown source as "reputable and reliable" before you even knew who it was.



It's his job to advocate the interests of the company he heads. The prevalence of old sea mines on the seafloor in that area is hardly a secret, but what he should have known -- as the head of a passenger line plying the Baltic -- is what little danger those munitions had posed to shipping. MS Estonia would have been the only ship in decades, over thousands of yearly voyages through those waters, to have been sunk by a leftover mine. Johanson plainly bases his opinion not on what he knows, but what he doesn't know -- namely, how his ferry could have otherwise sunk so fast.
There has not been an accident like it before or since, unless you count the ships sunk by torpedo during the wars.

It is nothing like the Herald of Free Enterprise, which did not have a bow visor and was simply due to the boatswain not putting up the car ramp.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:26 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Estline's opinion, being the vessel operators, as to the possible cause of the accident is bound to be a carefully weighed consideration of probabilities based on skill and know how.
No cite, source or proper reference?
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:28 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You pilfered a citation from someone else, pretended you had read the primary source, and inferred your claim from the headline alone. You are not intellectually honest.
I see you are one those people who cannot debate without getting downright insulting and spiteful. You are telling lies when you claim I 'pretended' to read the original source, when I very clearly said I would need to get the original from a newspaper library, and that the source was Drew Wilson.

I had read of Johanson's claim before but Wilson's was the source that was at hand.
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:29 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There has not been an accident like it before or since, unless you count the ships sunk by torpedo during the wars.



It is nothing like the Herald of Free Enterprise, which did not have a bow visor and was simply due to the boatswain not putting up the car ramp.
None of that has anything to do with what I posted.
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