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Old 14th October 2021, 08:24 AM   #3401
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No. There were points of connectivity between the bow visor and the bow ramp. When the visor eventually tore itself free from the ship, it damaged the structural integrity of the ramp as it did so. There's zero mystery as to why the visor came off the ship while the ramp - though damaged and fatally compromised - stayed attached to the ship.






The sides of the bow ramp - which by now were not watertight, after the ramp's structural integrity was damaged when the bow visor tore off the ship - were (obviously) closer to the waterline than the top of the ramp. It's therefore zero mystery as to why the majority of the water forcing its way around the ramp and into the vehicle deck came in via the sides of the ramp rather than the top.






And?






Once again: no dice. Your (ignorant and ill-founded) attempt at an argument on this point can immediately be refuted by reference to the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster. That ferry also had a vehicle deck above the waterline. That ferry was sailing in relatively flat-calm seas at the time. And that ferry sank because its open bow doors allowed enough water into the ship to fatally compromise its buoyancy. By contrast, the Estonia - pitching up and down in the high swell and still sailing at speed - would have taken in water via its broken bow opening even more easily than HOFE did.
The Herald of Free Enterprise ended up like this. Stop making fabrications about it having sunk to the bottom of the sea like the Estonia.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:24 AM   #3402
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The discussion wasn't 'how hot can welding systems burn'. We were discussing why Clausthal-Zellerfeld said assuming Braidwood's sample had not been heated to 700°C then XYZ follows. The significance of the 700°C is to do with at what temperature causes a change in the inherent structure of the steel.
You claimed 700+°C was impossible outside a lab. Stop obfuscating.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:25 AM   #3403
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Herald of Free Enterprise ended up like this. Stop making fabrications about it having sunk to the bottom of the sea like the Estonia.
It did sink to the bottom of the sea. It's just that the bottom of the sea wasn't as far down as it often is.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:26 AM   #3404
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The discussion wasn't 'how hot can welding systems burn'. We were discussing why Clausthal-Zellerfeld said assuming Braidwood's sample had not been heated to 700°C then XYZ follows. The significance of the 700°C is to do with at what temperature causes a change in the inherent structure of the steel.
The discussion was your claim that such temperatures could only be achieved in a laboratory. Therefore showing you the many ways to raise steel to that temperature outside a laboratory is pertinent.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:27 AM   #3405
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The discussion wasn't 'how hot can welding systems burn'. We were discussing why Clausthal-Zellerfeld said assuming Braidwood's sample had not been heated to 700°C then XYZ follows. The significance of the 700°C is to do with at what temperature causes a change in the inherent structure of the steel.
Their point being that if the sample hadn't been heat treated in the lab then signs of heat treatment must have been present before it got to the lab. You then seized upon this, assuming they meant such heating could only normally be achieved in a lab, and went galloping off in all directions with it. Your basic misunderstanding led to goodness knows how many posts about welding. None of it matters. You just didn't understand what they meant.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:29 AM   #3406
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Wait, I though we couldn't trust Linde as a witness. Is he back from being a liar?
Only when it's convenient
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:31 AM   #3407
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
She wouldn't really have a point even then. The Herald of Free Enterprise disaster took place in benign sea conditions: the combination of 1) a bow wave and 2) the inevitable bow-stern oscillations of a ship propelling itself forward from the stern.... allowed more than enough water to get into the vehicle deck (which, as on the Estonia, was above the waterline) to sink the ship in under two minutes.
It did not sink. It lay on its side. Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:33 AM   #3408
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did not sink. It lay on its side. Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.
Or so you say. But since it wasn't in open seas to demonstrate what you claim would have happened had it been, it's not evidence of what you claim would have happened.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #3409
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did not sink. It lay on its side. Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.
Not for the first time, let me point out that the official report says you are wrong about that. Why should we believe your amateur wot-I-reckon over the investigators?
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #3410
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You're avoiding the issue.

You tell us we have to accept Linde's testimony on this point. But when we cite Linde's testimony for other things that don't agree with your conspiracy theory, you tell us how untrustworthy he is and dismiss him categorically. I previously asked you what criteria you use to tell when Linde is lying and when he's telling the truth. And you avoided the issue back then too; you just gave us an unsolicited opinion of how you think chronic liars think.

How can you tell, from moment to moment, whether Linde is lying or not?
Usual way, whether it corroborates with what others say, whether it changes from day to day, whether a drug smuggler is a reliable witness, etc.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:35 AM   #3411
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence that it doesn't?
Wood floats. Steel does not. And even wooden ships sink. Vixen understands none of that.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:36 AM   #3412
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nonsense: a simple yes or no doesn't suffice, because my whole point is that such simplistic scenario-mongering as you insist upon doesn't provide useful knowledge. A boat sinks for exactly and only one reason: it has lost buoyancy. The reasons why it might lose buoyancy are many and varied. In the case of Viking ships, yes, they will sink if they ship too much water, which can happen if they roll too far, if they ship water over the bows, or if water enters via the notoriously leaky seams, or any other of a dozen other scenarios I can imagine. The Vikings knew this, which is why bailing the ships is such a prominently-mentioned aspect of their narratives.

The real point remains how you are being confronted with the knowledge and experience of people who have designed, built, and operated large oceangoing vessels as part of their professions, as well as studied professionally the failures in those endeavors that occasionally befall us. Yet you -- who have done none of these things -- rely almost exclusively on your own ill-informed say-so to attempt to make your point. Explain why a reasonable person should not dismiss your arguments as arrogant crackpottery.
So the short answer is no, only if it has leaky seams.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:38 AM   #3413
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Herald of Free Enterprise ended up like this. Stop making fabrications about it having sunk to the bottom of the sea like the Estonia.

You seem unaware of the fact that a ship can sink even when the depth of the seabed at that point doesn't allow the ship to submerge completely.

HOFE sank. Had the seabed been at a depth of 200m at that point, HOFE would have sunk to that 200m depth. You don't know what you're talking about. (Feeling increasingly like I ought to get that previous sentence laminated for frequent use....)
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:40 AM   #3414
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It did sink to the bottom of the sea. It's just that the bottom of the sea wasn't as far down as it often is.

For some reason, trying to educate Vixen on this issue reminds me of a classic piece of comedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMiKyfd6hA0
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:41 AM   #3415
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Usual way, whether it corroborates with what others say...
But you said we have to believe Linde's statement, although he's the only one that provided the evidence on this latest point.

Quote:
...whether it changes from day to day
I've given you examples of other people's testimonies that changed, but which supported your conspiracy theory, and you seemed to think that was all right.

Quote:
...whether a drug smuggler is a reliable witness, etc.
That's a categorical argument. If Linde is a drug smuggler and drug smugglers are unreliable witnesses, then Linde is categorically an unreliable witness. This last bit you just seem to wield only when it suits you.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:41 AM   #3416
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the short answer is no, only if it has leaky seams.
No, the answer is the post I wrote. Try to go a day without shoving your own words in someone else's mouth.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:44 AM   #3417
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Let me ask you then: if a longboat capsizes, does it immediately sink?

A simple yes or no will suffice.
It would depend on the circumstances.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:45 AM   #3418
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
There's only one person in this thread who's not only unfamiliar with what happens when a boat/ship capsizes and sinks..... but who actually promotes a nonsensical and incorrect "theory" of how certain boats/ships must necessarily behave when they sink.


Vixen: take a look at the picture below. It's a photograph of what remains of a Roman shipwreck. The wood of the ship has long since rotted away, and all that remains is its cargo of terracotta amphorae (jugs/containers).

Do you know, Vixen, why the amphorae in the picture are lying on the seabed in tight formation with each other and in the shape of a ship? It's because they were being transported in an open-decked ship, and the ship sank straight down in its same horizontal keel-down attitude. If the ship had capsized, the amphorae would simply have spilled out and fallen to the seabed in a haphazard pile.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...843b44564a.jpg
So it sunk because...?
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:47 AM   #3419
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did not sink. It lay on its side. Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.

No. No. And no.

(And "...until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity" is a very special kind of wrong. Kudos!)
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:48 AM   #3420
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the short answer is no, only if it has leaky seams.

No.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:50 AM   #3421
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it sunk because...?
Because water came in faster than they could chuck it out again. What's your point?
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:52 AM   #3422
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it sunk because...?

....it took on too much water in a storm. (and it's "sank", not "sunk")
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:53 AM   #3423
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Or so you say. But since it wasn't in open seas to demonstrate what you claim would have happened had it been, it's not evidence of what you claim would have happened.
The direct comparison with the Herald of Free Enterprise is the ferry ro-ro, Jan Heweliusz . However, the Jan Heweliusz was in open sea and this is how it ended up, as the Estonia should have, had it been a simple flooding of the car deck with water.

It is astonishing that someone who professes to be a master of shipbuilding, architecture and engineering did not know of this elementary principle.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:56 AM   #3424
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the short answer is no, only if it has leaky seams.
There is absolutely no way a reader could honestly misconstrue a post so completely.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:58 AM   #3425
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It would depend on the circumstances.
You know, the answer 'Depends' in answer to a question is what drives tutors mad.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:58 AM   #3426
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The direct comparison with the Herald of Free Enterprise is the ferry ro-ro, Jan Heweliusz.
As far as you're able to determine, it's a direct comparison. What if it isn't, for reasons you don't know about?

Quote:
It is astonishing that someone who professes to be a master of shipbuilding, architecture and engineering did not know of this elementary principle.
It's astonishing that you believe every ship that sinks has to obey your simplistic understanding of practical buoyancy in ship construction. Yes, by all means keep doubling down on the notion that you're infallible and that everyone else in the world is bluffing.

I assume now we have to go back through all the examples of ships sinking that we covered before, and all the different circumstances and outcomes, because all you've done is raised the same long-debunked point for the umpteenth time, with no recollection of any of the discussion that went before.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:59 AM   #3427
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The direct comparison with the Herald of Free Enterprise is the ferry ro-ro, Jan Heweliusz . However, the Jan Heweliusz was in open sea and this is how it ended up, as the Estonia should have, had it been a simple flooding of the car deck with water.

It is astonishing that someone who professes to be a master of shipbuilding, architecture and engineering did not know of this elementary principle.
I have entirely ceased to believe you're doing anything but keeping the pot boiling with this repeated garbage.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:59 AM   #3428
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You know, the answer 'Depends' in answer to a question is what drives tutors mad.
Irrelevant. You're either willing to embrace the actual complexities of the physical world, or you are not. If you are not, you're not ready to discuss these topics.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:03 AM   #3429
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You know, the answer 'Depends' in answer to a question is what drives tutors mad.
Makes them cross to be told they demanded a yes or no to their badly formed questions which don't have yes/no answers.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:36 AM   #3430
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Their point being that if the sample hadn't been heat treated in the lab then signs of heat treatment must have been present before it got to the lab. You then seized upon this, assuming they meant such heating could only normally be achieved in a lab, and went galloping off in all directions with it. Your basic misunderstanding led to goodness knows how many posts about welding. None of it matters. You just didn't understand what they meant.
Seriously, you are claiming metallurgy credentials and you are trying to get us to believe people can temper steel on their bathroom floor.

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Tempering is a heat treatment technique applied to ferrous alloys, such as steel or cast iron, to achieve greater toughness by decreasing the hardness of the alloy. The reduction in hardness is usually accompanied by an increase in ductility, thereby decreasing the brittleness of the metal. Tempering is usually performed after quenching, which is rapid cooling of the metal to put it in its hardest state. Tempering is accomplished by controlled heating of the quenched work-piece to a temperature below its "lower critical temperature".
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:38 AM   #3431
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously, you are claiming metallurgy credentials and you are trying to get us to believe people can temper steel on their bathroom floor.
I've tempered steel in my garage. What's your point?
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:40 AM   #3432
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The discussion wasn't 'how hot can welding systems burn'. We were discussing why Clausthal-Zellerfeld said assuming Braidwood's sample had not been heated to 700°C then XYZ follows. The significance of the 700°C is to do with at what temperature causes a change in the inherent structure of the steel.
Your claim was the temperature could only be reached in a lab. You further claimed welding couldn't melt steel.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:40 AM   #3433
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Herald of Free Enterprise ended up like this. Stop making fabrications about it having sunk to the bottom of the sea like the Estonia.
It was on the bottom of the sea.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:43 AM   #3434
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nonsense: a simple yes or no doesn't suffice, because my whole point is that such simplistic scenario-mongering as you insist upon doesn't provide useful knowledge. A boat sinks for exactly and only one reason: it has lost buoyancy. The reasons why it might lose buoyancy are many and varied. In the case of Viking ships, yes, they will sink if they ship too much water, which can happen if they roll too far, if they ship water over the bows, or if water enters via the notoriously leaky seams, or any other of a dozen other scenarios I can imagine. The Vikings knew this, which is why bailing the ships is such a prominently-mentioned aspect of their narratives.

The real point remains how you are being confronted with the knowledge and experience of people who have designed, built, and operated large oceangoing vessels as part of their professions, as well as studied professionally the failures in those endeavors that occasionally befall us. Yet you -- who have done none of these things -- rely almost exclusively on your own ill-informed say-so to attempt to make your point. Explain why a reasonable person should not dismiss your arguments as arrogant crackpottery.
I don't know why no one has cited the sinking longboat (?) in Erik the Viking yet. Sadly, I couldn't find a clip, but surely that would settle all these issues.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:46 AM   #3435
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did not sink. It lay on its side.
Yes, it sank otherwise it would be afloat

Quote:
Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up
What is your evidence it would have floated 'belly up'?
Ships very rarely float 'belly up' they sink.

Quote:
up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.
[/quote]

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. How would 'air pressure' be 'sucked out'?
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:48 AM   #3436
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It was on the bottom of the sea.
heh. A good piece of sophistry there to hide the fact it was a very different sinking from the Estonia

The fact you feel the need to gild the lily, as it were, is a dead cert indication you know perfectly well the two cases are entirely different from each other, or you wouldn't need to resort to such an outrageous attempt to obfuscate the matter.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:48 AM   #3437
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It did not sink. It lay on its side. Had it been in open seas it would have floated belly up until eventually the air pressure of the superstructure was sucked out by water entering every cavity.
Dear ******* god. A) how do you know that for certain. B) so what if it did, that proves nothing. C) do I need to show video of the Andrea Doria going down on her side again?
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:49 AM   #3438
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence it would have floated 'belly up'?
I'm pretty sure the real answer is, "Because Anders Björkmann said so," but for obvious reasons she might not want to give that reason.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:50 AM   #3439
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
heh. A good piece of sophistry there to hide the fact it was a very different sinking from the Estonia
What do you think made it different?

Quote:
...such an outrageous attempt to obfuscate the matter.
You're the one citing it as evidence of what you claim would have happened had the facts been different. Do you understand what evidence is?

Last edited by JayUtah; 14th October 2021 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:50 AM   #3440
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You know, the answer 'Depends' in answer to a question is what drives tutors mad.
Are tutors so stupid as not to realize that sometimes, "It depends," is the appropriate answer to a question?
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