IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags cancel culture

Reply
Old 9th October 2021, 02:08 PM   #241
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,125
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Robby Soave wrote, "The University of Michigan is a public institution at which students and professors deserve free speech and expression rights. It is a violation of the university's cherished principles of academic freedom to punish Sheng for the choices he makes in the classroom. Screening a racially problematic film in an educational setting is neither a racist act nor an endorsement of racism. At this point, it is Sheng who is owed an apology from the broader university community for falsely maligning him."

I would go slightly further and say that (with some narrow exceptions) professors have first amendment rights at a public university (the distinction between public and private universities is worth making in this regard).
Before I read this article I thought “this surely can’t be about Olivier’s Othello”. Of course it was.

Yes everyone has moved on from blackface, but I thought this movie was masterful. I first watched it as school student struggling to come to terms with Shakespeare, and this movie helped greatly.

At least the University didn’t buckle. I personally don’t believe that Sheng even needed to apologise. He explained the reasons he chose the film, and that should have been enough.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 01:46 PM   #242
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,712
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Before I read this article I thought “this surely can’t be about Olivier’s Othello”. Of course it was.

Yes everyone has moved on from blackface, but I thought this movie was masterful. I first watched it as school student struggling to come to terms with Shakespeare, and this movie helped greatly.

At least the University didn’t buckle. I personally don’t believe that Sheng even needed to apologise. He explained the reasons he chose the film, and that should have been enough.
Cathy Young wrote an article about the Sheng case.

"If Sheng apologized for showing the film in class, I don’t think he needed to. It would have been enough to acknowledge the objections and discomfort and say that he should have introduced the screening with a disclaimer. It would have also helped to throw in a reminder that people who study art should know how to deal with classical art that is offensive by modern standards. And dropping the entire Othello project was totally unnecessary."

I think these apologies (especially by the university) are a mistake. It just fuels the witch hunts and purity spirals.
__________________
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." - Aldous Huxley.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 05:10 PM   #243
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,966
Just wait until they hear about how Shakespearean-era troupes shut out actresses altogether.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 10th October 2021 at 05:13 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2021, 05:18 PM   #244
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,424
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Cathy Young wrote an article about the Sheng case.

"If Sheng apologized for showing the film in class, I don’t think he needed to. It would have been enough to acknowledge the objections and discomfort and say that he should have introduced the screening with a disclaimer. It would have also helped to throw in a reminder that people who study art should know how to deal with classical art that is offensive by modern standards. And dropping the entire Othello project was totally unnecessary."

I think these apologies (especially by the university) are a mistake. It just fuels the witch hunts and purity spirals.
All this ends with the guillotine or the gulag.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2021, 04:09 PM   #245
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,458
An interesting editorial in The Atlantic on the Dorian Abbot (The guy who bought up Hitler when discussing the Woke. He's right, both wanted 'compliant' academia.) cancellation.


Quote:
Dorian Abbot is a geophysicist at the University of Chicago. In recognition of his research on climate change, MIT invited him to deliver the John Carlson Lecture, which takes place every year at a large venue in the Boston area and is meant to “communicate exciting new results in climate science to the general public.”

Then the campaign to cancel Abbot’s lecture began. On Twitter, some students and professors called on the university to retract its invitation. And, sure enough, MIT buckled, becoming yet another major institution in American life to demonstrate that the commitment to free speech it trumpets on its website evaporates the moment some loud voices on social media call for a speaker’s head.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ferent/620352/
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2021, 03:46 PM   #246
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,458
The Fire.Org on the cancellation of Bright Sheng for 'thoughtcrime'. Of note Bright Sheng is BIPOC in some situations, he's 'White Adjacant' in others, which goes to show the arbitary nature of much of the 'Theory of Critical Race'



Quote:
Listing Professor Bright Sheng’s accolades, which span both music and higher education, is no small task. Despite the family piano being removed from his home during Mao Zedong’s Cultural Revolution as a child, Sheng was able to cultivate both his talent and passion for music as he grew up. He was awarded a MacArthur fellowship in 2001, and has twice been a finalist for a Pulitzer Prize. Since 1995, he has honed his musical and teaching expertise as the Leonard Bernstein Distinguished University Professor of Composition at the University of Michigan, far from his native Shanghai.

But in what has become an increasingly common-sounding story, Sheng has stepped down from teaching his composition seminar at the university’s School of Music, Theatre & Dance after a campus uproar. His offense? Showing the class a 1965 version of William Shakespeare’s classic Othello starring legendary actor Sir Laurence Olivier in the title role.

https://www.thefire.org/university-o...-othello-film/


I will note the linked article ends with a 'puff' for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, but it's still worth reading.
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2021, 04:05 PM   #247
Graham2001
Graduate Poster
 
Graham2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,458
Jerry Coyne on the attacks on Kathleen Stock's situation where she is subjected to abuse and threats for arguing that biological sex is not a social construct.


Quote:
So what if the Times of London is a Tory paper? Gender-critical feminist Professor Kathleen Stock of Sussex needs a stalwart defense and they gave it to her. There was NO defense from the Guardian, of course, just a new article about how Stock’s own union (the University and College Union) is investigating her for transphobia, and that Stock feels that her teaching career is “effectively ended”. The Guardian loves that, and they would get rid of Stock if they had the power. They are reprehensible, especially on issues of freedom of speech.

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...-so-should-we/


He also includes a screenshot of the full Times editorial, which is quite decent of him.
__________________
"I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!"
'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail

Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...
Graham2001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2021, 09:27 PM   #248
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,649
I was playing with my niece tonight, and to hyperbolize a distance she says, "Further than from here to Antarctica." She quickly added, "I used to say 'from here to China,' but that's racist."

I'm still reporting her to the Internet for past racism.
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo.
Diablo: What's that supposed to mean?
Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.
Diablo: You're a lousy bigot. Apologise and withdraw that remark.
Cain: Nah.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:54 AM   #249
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,258
A Verdi good point

The headline is "Oppose the right-wing, racialist attack on composer Bright Sheng at University of Michigan." The statement reads in part, "The International Youth and Students for Social Equality (IYSSE) at the University of Michigan denounces the racialist smear campaign against renowned composer, conductor and pianist Bright Sheng. The claim by a group of students and faculty that he committed a “racist act” by screening a film version of Othello with Laurence Olivier is as badly informed as it is false. All serious and democratic-minded students should refuse to be intimidated and come to Sheng’s defense." World Socialist Web Site..

The statement continued: Any suggestion that there is a hint of racism about Olivier’s performance is preposterous. The actor takes pains to bestow his character with the greatest possible dignity and humanity. The Michigan Daily wrote that in a letter sent to the Daily Sheng explained “that the original intent was to show how the opera composer Giuseppe Verdi had adapted Shakespeare’s play into an opera. Since cross-casting was frequent in opera, he did not think Laurence Olivier’s performance was ‘intended to be the same as the minstrel performances which did degrade African Americans.’” More on the IYSSE here.

The FIRE's Robert Shibley wrote, "But at public universities, the application of these mores through official discipline or punishment is prohibited by the First Amendment."
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 14th October 2021 at 04:06 AM.
Chris_Halkides is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #250
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Jerry Coyne on the attacks on Kathleen Stock's situation where she is subjected to abuse and threats for arguing that biological sex is not a social construct.

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2021/...-so-should-we/
Finishing up Stock's book today—usually try to push back on attempted cancellations by buying the cancellee's latest treatise—it's a fairly compelling read. She addresses many of the issues raised in the trans thread with a reasonable level of philosophical rigor.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #251
Ron Obvious
Muse
 
Ron Obvious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 724
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was playing with my niece tonight, and to hyperbolize a distance she says, "Further than from here to Antarctica." She quickly added, "I used to say 'from here to China,' but that's racist."

I'm still reporting her to the Internet for past racism.
I was chastised the other day for saying "Remember, there are billion Chinese who don't give a damn."

I thought it was still a current expression, but in the present climate maybe it was assumed that I was implying Chinese people were particularly callous or something. Who knows?
__________________
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." -- George Orwell
Ron Obvious is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 05:52 PM   #252
Distracted1
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: No longer Philadelphia :(
Posts: 5,707
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I was playing with my niece tonight, and to hyperbolize a distance she says, "Further than from here to Antarctica." She quickly added, "I used to say 'from here to China,' but that's racist."

I'm still reporting her to the Internet for past racism.
Our cultural revolution is going gloriously.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th October 2021, 05:39 AM   #253
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,732
Today in cancel culture news, fascist propagandist and milkshake survivor Andy Ngo filed a frivolous DMCA copyright complaint against antifascist Chad Loder, who was sharing a photo of Andy posing with a known Polish fascist group.

It's unclear whether Andy is actually the copyright holder for the photo, as he clearly didn't take the photo, and it almost certainly would qualify as "fair use" as a piece of political commentary on his close affiliation with international fascist orgs.

Loder has also been the target of frivolous "Protection orders" from local LA fascists, who have been openly making death threats and advertising both his home address and the fact that he cannot possess firearms while the order is pending. One fascist also attacked him outside the courthouse when he was responding to this order. That man was later arrested for an unrelated armed assault on a journalist during an fascist/anti-trans (but I repeat myself) rally at Wi Spa.

As of result of this pathetic attempt of censorship, the Streisand effect has seen the image of Ngo associating with Polish fascists proliferating across the web, and may result in the notorious propagandist being finally permabanned from the service, as false DMCA claims are against the TOS.

Quote:
Dear Twitterverse, please enjoy this photo of Andy Ngo posing in front of some Polish fascist graffiti (that's what the yellow arrow is pointing towards), which he keeps filing fraudulent DMCA takedown requests in order to suppress.
https://twitter.com/evacide/status/1449810350828752896

ETA: Fascists are now making threats to stalk Ken White (aka Popehat) and his adopted children in retribution for his work representing Loder as his lawyer.

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1449861334858756101
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 18th October 2021 at 05:54 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 04:57 AM   #254
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,732
Bari Weiss, on CNN, claiming she is being silenced by outlets like CNN.

Can we stop pretending this is anything but a self-aggrandizing grift for mediocre (yet incredibly well compensated) pundits?

https://twitter.com/BMeiselas/status...29205451051015

Quote:
“I’m being silenced by CNN,” she said during her interview on CNN.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 05:26 AM   #255
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bari Weiss, on CNN, claiming she is being silenced by outlets like CNN.

Can we stop pretending this is anything but a self-aggrandizing grift for mediocre (yet incredibly well compensated) pundits?

https://twitter.com/BMeiselas/status...29205451051015
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 05:37 AM   #256
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,732
Originally Posted by Undefeated champ Chad Loder
NEW: As a result of advertisers and ad networks fleeing Andy Ngo's publication The Post Millennial, the site's cost-per-mille (CPM) — a measure of the average cost for 1,000 ad impressions — has dropped to $0.11.

An astonishing drop in the real-time bidding price for ads on TPM.
https://twitter.com/nandoodles/statu...09449130909696

Ad revenue for Andy Ngo's fascist propaganda mill is plummeting thanks to a concerted effort by internet activists. Turns out most companies do not like it when their products are featured along side fascist propaganda, and most have been willing to exclude The Post Millennial from their ad buys when they are made aware.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 02:30 PM   #257
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
I wonder what Bari Weiss will make of this….

Quote:
News that Mel Gibson is to star in the John Wick prequel TV series sends out a cry amongst the faithful. Mel is risen! Yet again! Yes, the boulder has once more been rolled away from the tomb of cancellation, leaving disciples and those who think people should at least say sorry once for being obnoxiously appalling now contemplating a place of emptiness. Nothing gets resurrected more often than Mel – not even pussy-bow blouses or the Batman story. It’s like the old Hollywood saying goes: he’ll for ever eat lunch in this town again.

Before we go on, a recap of the details: cinema’s Mel Gibson has landed a role in The Continental, a TV spin-off of the successful John Wick movie franchise, which will air on Starz. Scientifically speaking, there can only be a finite amount of niceness in the John Wick universe, and having all-round good egg Keanu Reeves as the eponymous character in the movies means at some point you have to balance him out with someone with a truly toxic “Controversies” section to their Wikipedia entry. Mel’s very much your guy!
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 02:56 PM   #258
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,841
I've seen a lot of people bad mouthing Bari Weiss, and I really don't know why. I've read some of their articles. Some are okay, some are boring, some are annoying. They don't seem like a wingnut or anything.

What's the backstory on why they get such derision?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 03:18 PM   #259
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,732
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've seen a lot of people bad mouthing Bari Weiss, and I really don't know why. I've read some of their articles. Some are okay, some are boring, some are annoying. They don't seem like a wingnut or anything.

What's the backstory on why they get such derision?
Quote:
The Self-Cancellation of Bari Weiss
Like much of her writing, the former New York Times editor’s resignation letter is long on accusation and thin on evidence.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210103...ion-bari-weiss
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 03:31 PM   #260
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,425
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've seen a lot of people bad mouthing Bari Weiss, and I really don't know why. I've read some of their articles. Some are okay, some are boring, some are annoying. They don't seem like a wingnut or anything.

What's the backstory on why they get such derision?
Well she's gay, so that will put her offside with a substantial percentage of people; she's Jewish, and very pro-Israel so that will be another reason to regarded unfavourably by some.

Also, when your writings receive praise from the likes of scumbags like Donnie Jr, Cancun Cruz, Marco Rubio and Ben Shapiro, that is going to get you regarded with some suspicion on the political left.

For mine, I quite like her. I think she's hard to pin down, and has a few somewhat quirky ideas e.g. she didn't think Drunky McRapeface's sexual assault of Christine Blasey Ford ought to have been disqualifying for a seat on SCOTUS
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 04:58 PM   #261
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've seen a lot of people bad mouthing Bari Weiss, and I really don't know why. I've read some of their articles. Some are okay, some are boring, some are annoying. They don't seem like a wingnut or anything.

What's the backstory on why they get such derision?
Bari Weiss is ridiculed as someone who is basically making a career of arguing that you can't say that anymore or you get cancelled.

She worked for the New York Times and wrote a big spread about the "Intellectual Dark Web" featuring all the great and the good - Eric Weinstein, Bret Weinstein, Joe Rogan, David Rubins, Sam Harris, Michael Shermer, Christina Hoff Sommers, etc...

At this point you will probably say, "I have never heard of any of them!" and that's the point. Her New York Times spread revealed that they had all been cancelled for their "controversial" ideas.

Then she quit the NYT because, er... she had been cancelled (by herself, I suppose). That's why she was complaining on CNN about how she was silenced by CNN.

I think people bash her because she is a one-trick pony. She says essentially the same thing over and over again (much like the rest of the IDW) which is. wait for it:

There is no such thing as systemic oppression against minorities. The only oppression is against people like me and my buddies who are always getting ourselves cancelled. These days, if you say you're English you get locked up and thrown in jail! We've been murdered (not literally obviously!). We are oppressed! We are the real truthseekers! this is like Communist China or Nazi Germany! Like totes!

The fact that saying she is oppressed is pretty much her career and that of the "IDW" only shows the opposite of what she claims. The word for this is "grifter".
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 05:33 PM   #262
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,841
I've heard of a few of those. I rather enjoy Joe Rogan. He gets an interesting variety of people on his podcast. Although... I rarely have the 3 hours to devote to it.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 06:13 PM   #263
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,036
I think Joe Rogan has some really good content, but he also hosts plenty of cranks and treats them like they’re not cranks and has said some controversial things on his show. And he’s been criticized for doing so, which I think is fair. I think that’s a good example of the conflation of criticism and cancel culture and why the term is so loaded that it’s useless.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 06:20 PM   #264
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've heard of a few of those. I rather enjoy Joe Rogan. He gets an interesting variety of people on his podcast. Although... I rarely have the 3 hours to devote to it.
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I think Joe Rogan has some really good content, but he also hosts plenty of cranks and treats them like they’re not cranks and has said some controversial things on his show. And he’s been criticized for doing so, which I think is fair. I think that’s a good example of the conflation of criticism and cancel culture and why the term is so loaded that it’s useless.
Yeah, there was a time when I was starting to think Rogan was quite good. He seemed to be listening to and learning from some of his smarter guests and generally moving away from the conspiracy theories that he had bought into in the past. However, in the pandemic, he has really leaned hard into some of the worst alternative medicine theories and given an airing to "cancelled" Bret Weinstein (who actually still has a You Tube account but got his videos advocating Ivermectin demonetized when all content providers get their Ivermectin and Covid-19 hot takes demonetized on You Tube).
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 08:18 PM   #265
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,966
Rogan doesn't really ask hard questions or do much homework so his shows are generally about as good as his guests.

(Nice work if you can get it.)
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th October 2021, 11:14 PM   #266
jt512
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,756
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've seen a lot of people bad mouthing Bari Weiss, and I really don't know why.
That's an easy one: she supports Israel.
jt512 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 04:46 AM   #267
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by jt512 View Post
That's an easy one: she supports Israel.
Too right! No way you could work at the New York Times if you support Israel.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 06:06 AM   #268
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,633
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I wonder what Bari Weiss will make of this….



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other
Ah finally he can do battle with the jews who cause all the wars in the world yet again!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 08:27 AM   #269
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,966
Netflix walkout trending

Apparently they didn't cancel some comedian enough.

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Netf...ertical=trends

https://twitter.com/AshleeMPreston/s...51113978572800
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 20th October 2021 at 08:29 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 12:21 PM   #270
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,425
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Here's the letter from Netflix Employees... it reads as a list of demands. See if you can spot something that is absent from that list.

Over the past few weeks, it has become clear that there are many places where Netflix still has to grow when it comes to content relating to the trans and non-binary community. The Trans* Employee Resource Group, which includes trans and non-binary colleagues as well as our numerous allies, wants Netflix to immediately take the steps below to begin to repair the relationship between the Company, our colleagues, and our audience. Specifically, we want the Company to adopt measures in the areas of Content Investment, Employee Relations and Safety, and Harm Reduction, all of which are necessary to avoid future instances of platforming transphobia and hate speech, and to account for the harm we have caused and will continue to cause until the below measures are put in place.

1. Content Investment
Create a new fund to specifically develop trans and non-binary talent

○ This fund should support both above-the-line (ATL) and below-the-line (BTL) talent;

○ This fund should exist in addition to the existing Creative Equity Fund;

Increase investment in trans and non-binary content on Netflix comparable to our total investment in transphobic content, including marketing and promotion;

Invest in multiple trans creators to make both scripted and unscripted programs across genres;

Revise internal processes on commissioning and releasing potential harmful (“sensitive”) content, including but not limited to involving parties who are a part of the subject community and can speak to potential harm, or consulting with 3rd party experts/vendors;

Increase the ERG role in conversations around potentially harmful content and ensure we have best in class regional support on complicated intersectional diversity issues;

Hire trans and non-binary content executives, especially BIPOC, in leading
positions;

2. Employee Relations and Safety
Recruit trans people, especially BIPOC, for leadership roles in the company (Director, VP, etc.) and promote an inclusive environment for them;

Allow employees to remove themselves from previous company promotional content (e.g. allyship and diversity videos, etc.);

Eliminate references/imagery of transphobic titles or talent inside of the workplace, including but not limited to murals, posters, room names, swag;

3. Harm Reduction
Acknowledge the harm and Netflix’s responsibility for this harm from transphobic content, and in particular harm to the Black trans community;

Add a disclaimer before transphobic titles that specifically flag transphobic language, misogyny, homophobia, hate speech, etc. as required;

Boost promotion for Disclosure and other trans-affirming titles in the platform;

Suggest trans-affirming content alongside and after content flagged as anti-trans.

We are employees, but we are members, too. We believe that this Company can and must do better in our quest to entertain the world, and that the way forward must include more diverse voices in order to avoid causing more harm.

The Trans* ERG looks forward to working with the Company to make this a better, more entertaining place for us all.

Sincerely-

Trans* Netflix

Well, did you spot the missing "demand"?
.
.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 12:24 PM   #271
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,841
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I think Joe Rogan has some really good content, but he also hosts plenty of cranks and treats them like they’re not cranks and has said some controversial things on his show. And he’s been criticized for doing so, which I think is fair. I think that’s a good example of the conflation of criticism and cancel culture and why the term is so loaded that it’s useless.
I recommend you watch some of the episodes where Rogan has like actual for-realsies racists on. They're surprisingly entertaining. Joe doesn't *have* to treat them like cranks... they come across as off their rockers all by themselves.

The episode with Tommy Chong ended up being like that too. Chong has definitely smoked way too much weed over the years, and they believe some really crazy stuff now. But Rogan treated him decently, and pretty much just let the crazy be observed by viewers.

And some of the cranks come across as a lot less wacky when you actually listen to them in conversation too. Granted, there will undoubtedly be topics on which you and Rogan disagree, probably even strongly. But I always admire how they treat their guests on the shows, regardless of whether Rogan agrees with them or not. They are still civil and decent about it.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 12:34 PM   #272
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,841
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here's the letter from Netflix Employees... it reads as a list of demands. See if you can spot something that is absent from that list.

...


Well, did you spot the missing "demand"?
.
.
Common sense and tolerance?
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 12:41 PM   #273
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,036
I mostly enjoy when he talks with athletes and comedians, things he has some knowledge in and is able to use it to get some insight out of his guests that other interviewers can't. That said, it's not that I personally have a problem with how he treats his guests, it's his show and he produces a particular type of content that a lot of people enjoy and I think that's fine.

What I am doing is acknowledging it's fair for others to feel differently and I think valid criticism can be made against him for some of the guests he hosts, how little he challenges them on things he knows are questionable or outright false, and thing he himself has said in the past that are either incorrect or offensive to some people.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 12:57 PM   #274
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,841
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
I mostly enjoy when he talks with athletes and comedians, things he has some knowledge in and is able to use it to get some insight out of his guests that other interviewers can't. That said, it's not that I personally have a problem with how he treats his guests, it's his show and he produces a particular type of content that a lot of people enjoy and I think that's fine.

What I am doing is acknowledging it's fair for others to feel differently and I think valid criticism can be made against him for some of the guests he hosts, how little he challenges them on things he knows are questionable or outright false, and thing he himself has said in the past that are either incorrect or offensive to some people.
I think it's silly to expect that Joe, or anyone else, should be expected to never offend people. At the very least, there are some people who look for any excuse to be offended. But mostly, some people need to grow up.

People on here say stuff that offends me all the damned time. I get called names, I get all sorts of degrading and dehumanizing insinuations tossed my way. If "being offended" is a justifiable argument for getting someone else to stfu, then a whole lot of people on ISF should be gagged at this point.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 01:26 PM   #275
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,036
Oh, I don’t expect Joe Rogan, or anyone else, to never offend anyone. It’s that when they do, they’re going to hear about it. And why shouldn’t they? Only Joe Rogan gets to have an opinion? Telling people to grow up and stop complaining because they’re offended by something you feel they shouldn’t be isnt even that dissimilar to be honest.

But, Joe Rogan doesn’t have to accept or apologize or even listen to the criticism and complaints either. I think it’s still fair for anyone to have an opinion on Joe Rogan and say what it is

Anyway, I don’t think enduring abuse on the principal that being offended is somehow not an acceptable reason to speak up is a great approach. If it works for you, which it doesn’t sound like it is, great. I don’t think it’s a universally accepted idea, or often even a good one. If someone does something that bothers you, maybe you should tell them.

Last edited by dirtywick; 20th October 2021 at 01:28 PM.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 01:37 PM   #276
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,425
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Common sense and tolerance?
Nope, what they are demanding IS commonsense and tolerance - the demand you don't see is for Dave Chappelle to be cancelled! The claim that this comedian is being cancelled is complete and utter bull-****. No such thing is happening. Those who are protesting his transphobic comments are not trying to cancel him, they are trying to address the shortcomings of a workplace that is intolerant of them.

People have no control over whether they are trans, or gay or identify as a different gender to their physiological sex at birth. Its not a disease or an ailment of any kind. They are who they are, and its something they cannot do anything about. They should not be discriminated against because of it.

They want their workplace to be the way society should be, a place where being transexual or gay or gender neutral, is simply accepted as normal, and uncontroversial, where there is nothing to see here, where being these things is not even a topic of conversation.. where it simply is what it is.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 20th October 2021 at 03:26 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 03:21 PM   #277
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,258
The play's the thing at Coastal Carolina University

FIRE

“I hope my story can salvage some measure of integrity in higher education,” said Earnest. “Universities must give more weight to the devastating, long-term effects of their actions on hard-working career academics like myself than they do to the short-term pleasure of being perceived as ‘right’ in the eyes of a small but vocal group of students.”

The linked story is a little too complex to summarize easily. I would like to highlight one aspect of this incident, namely the outrage that the students claimed to feel. I respectfully but strongly question whether the students really were as upset by this as their words and actions suggest. That goes double for the boulder that the University of Wisconsin moved (see upthread). Some have dubbed this performance art. That's a little too kind IMO.
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz)
Chris_Halkides is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 03:35 PM   #278
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No such thing is happening.
Literally no one has demanded that Chappelle be out of work from now on? Quite a bold claim.

Glad to see Netflix employees have crafted a set of reasonable demands which don't include censorship, but that's a pretty small subset of the people making demands here.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 20th October 2021 at 03:37 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 04:18 PM   #279
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think it's silly to expect that Joe, or anyone else, should be expected to never offend people. At the very least, there are some people who look for any excuse to be offended. But mostly, some people need to grow up.

People on here say stuff that offends me all the damned time. I get called names, I get all sorts of degrading and dehumanizing insinuations tossed my way. If "being offended" is a justifiable argument for getting someone else to stfu, then a whole lot of people on ISF should be gagged at this point.
FWIW, I don't claim to be "offended" by Rogan. I listen to him from time to time depending on who is on.

What I criticize him for (please note that people should still be able to criticize without it being claimed that it is a "cancellation" attempt) is when he gets cranks on, such as at the height of a pandemic, for an "emergency podcast" to cast doubt on vaccines and promote unproven "cures" such as ivermectin and have people claim that it is a "near-perfect" prophylactic. For some reason, he thinks Bret Weinstein is some genius scientist when he was nothing more than a biology teacher at a small liberal arts college. He deserves criticism for that, and people peddling "miracle cures" should have their videos demonetized by YouTube!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2021, 04:19 PM   #280
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,511
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Literally no one has demanded that Chappelle be out of work from now on? Quite a bold claim.

Glad to see Netflix employees have crafted a set of reasonable demands which don't include censorship, but that's a pretty small subset of the people making demands here.
No doubt some people have called for Chappelle's show to be pulled. But we are talking here about the Internet. There is no opinion that cannot be found on the Internet. But not only is he not in serious danger of being pulled, the publicity will be good for his viewing figures.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.