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Old 8th October 2021, 01:07 PM   #81
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Lol, which party do I defend?
The party that always stands in the way of transgender rights.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:40 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Lol, which party do I defend?
Well, on this forum, you defend pretty much all the things the right supports and that the left criticises, and criticise the same things that the right criticises, such as the so-called (but in fact non-existent) "cancel culture", and that the left supports.

On the basis of 'if it talks like a duck, posts like a duck and defends all the things a duck defends, then its a duck', I must conclude that you are probably a right winger, or at the very least a very conservative leaning centrist - and therefore a GOP supporter.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:50 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
The party that always stands in the way of transgender rights.
No, I think that party is a pile of rectums as well.
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Old 8th October 2021, 01:53 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I must conclude that you are probably a right winger, or at the very least a very conservative leaning centrist - and therefore a GOP supporter.


Nailed!

The perfect iteration of what I mean. To me, Emily is a voice of reason, to you, she's a far-right nutbar.

Because she doesn't agree with you.

Thanks for that - I couldn't have designed a better representation without being called for making a strawman. Well played!
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:20 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No, I think that party is a pile of rectums as well.
You sure don't show it, deflecting every time Republicans are criticized more heavily than Democrats.

We all know what your game is by now.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:41 PM   #86
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Anyone else remember when political opinions had to do with politics and governing principles, and cultural or social opinions were largely separate from them?

Pepperidge farms remembers.
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:41 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, on this forum, you defend pretty much all the things the right supports and that the left criticises, and criticise the same things that the right criticises, such as the so-called (but in fact non-existent) "cancel culture", and that the left supports.

On the basis of 'if it talks like a duck, posts like a duck and defends all the things a duck defends, then its a duck', I must conclude that you are probably a right winger, or at the very least a very conservative leaning centrist - and therefore a GOP supporter.
Your perception is mistaken. I criticize some lefty things, because they're dumb things. I sometimes criticize righty things, but it's mostly hollering into an echo chamber, since most everybody agrees with me on those topics.

I don't support the elevation of gender identity ideology above the realty of sex in public policy. But I do completely support transgender people having access to medical care, protection from discrimination in employment, housing, etc. and being treated with dignity and respect.

I don't support the most idiotic bits of anti-racist crap because it's poorly thought out and divisive. But I do support revisions of how the police work and what is expected of them, changes to laws that have unwarranted racial effects (ie drug laws), and a considerable overhaul of the justice system along with third-party oversight of judicial decisions.

I favor progressive taxation for individual income, although I also want to make sure that we don't get overly stiff at the upper end, so we can avoid capital flight. I don't really support wealth taxes, but I'd be fine with moderate and scaled inheritance taxes. I think corporate taxes should be higher on average, and should also be progressively scaled so that small business don't get hit too hard and large corporations don't make out like villains. I think capital gains should be taxed exactly the same as income when the gains are realized.

I support the primary stock market, but think the secondary market needs tighter regulation and oversight, and the tertiary market should be considered betting and predominantly outlawed.

I think private schools should be outlawed, and that all schooling, including all postsecondary training, should be publicly funded - but not by local property taxes. Funds should be distributed on a per-attendee basis, and all primary and secondary schools should offer rich non-core education in art, music, etc. I support teachers - including university professors - being employees of the government whose primary goal is to teach, not to publish. Academic research should be a separate endeavor from education.

I think doctors, pharmacists, and all other providers of medical care should be government employees paid reasonable salaries. I think that a hybrid public-private system comparable to Medicare Advantage or the Swiss system are the most reasonable approaches, so that basic care and catastrophic care are covered as a communal good, but still allowing additional services or alternative cost arrangements to be handled by the private market.

I'm also completely for free speech, and I support gun ownership, but I'd like to see training and annual qualifications put in place.

I do not at all support extrajudicial punishment meted out by the mob, nor do I think that ideological conformity and purity has any value whatsoever.

Perhaps you stick me in the "oh evil right winger" camp because you are intractable about allowing other people to have values and views that don't align with your own, and are steeped in black-and-white thinking?
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Old 8th October 2021, 02:46 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You sure don't show it, deflecting every time Republicans are criticized more heavily than Democrats.

We all know what your game is by now.
90% of the posters on this site are very far left progressives, some quite extreme. 90% of the content in social issues and politics are vociferously anti-right. 90% of the time I make a single comment in agreement, and then there's nothing more to be learned or engaged in for that thread. Echo chambers are boring, and I don't feel a need to prove that I'm just as vitriolic as the next person. But holy cow, for the 1% of the content where I criticize the extremist progressive views, boy oh boy that makes me a "republican".

It's silly. If you actually stepped back from your ideological biases, you and I actually agree on quite a bit - even in the thread that shall not be named. But somewhere along the way you've decided that I'm your enemy, because I don't 100% completely agree with you on things that even you don't have full agreement with the ideology on.
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Old 8th October 2021, 03:35 PM   #89
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In the US, the Middle is so repulsed by by the nuts on the right and the intolerance on the left that they just don't see any point in engaging.

They will probably vote though.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
90% of the posters on this site are very far left progressives, some quite extreme. 90% of the content in social issues and politics are vociferously anti-right. 90% of the time I make a single comment in agreement, and then there's nothing more to be learned or engaged in for that thread. Echo chambers are boring, and I don't feel a need to prove that I'm just as vitriolic as the next person. But holy cow, for the 1% of the content where I criticize the extremist progressive views, boy oh boy that makes me a "republican".

It's silly. If you actually stepped back from your ideological biases, you and I actually agree on quite a bit - even in the thread that shall not be named. But somewhere along the way you've decided that I'm your enemy, because I don't 100% completely agree with you on things that even you don't have full agreement with the ideology on.
This. The left may not be as nutty as the right these days but god forbid you're just hair to the right of them or a day behind the latest progressive consensus.

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet...twitter-users/

Research about twitter but I think its indicative of whats going on. The political conversation on twitter is dominated by a minority of twitter users, who are generally very different from the broader twitter user base, who are also pretty different from most people. This is true of demographics and ideology.

Short version, the middle is still there, they just aren't here and for the most part, they aren't spouting of on the internet.

Last edited by ahhell; 8th October 2021 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 8th October 2021, 03:46 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your perception is mistaken. I criticize some lefty things, because they're dumb things. I sometimes criticize righty things, but it's mostly hollering into an echo chamber, since most everybody agrees with me on those topics.

I don't support the elevation of gender identity ideology above the realty of sex in public policy. But I do completely support transgender people having access to medical care, protection from discrimination in employment, housing, etc. and being treated with dignity and respect.

I don't support the most idiotic bits of anti-racist crap because it's poorly thought out and divisive. But I do support revisions of how the police work and what is expected of them, changes to laws that have unwarranted racial effects (ie drug laws), and a considerable overhaul of the justice system along with third-party oversight of judicial decisions.

I favor progressive taxation for individual income, although I also want to make sure that we don't get overly stiff at the upper end, so we can avoid capital flight. I don't really support wealth taxes, but I'd be fine with moderate and scaled inheritance taxes. I think corporate taxes should be higher on average, and should also be progressively scaled so that small business don't get hit too hard and large corporations don't make out like villains. I think capital gains should be taxed exactly the same as income when the gains are realized.

I support the primary stock market, but think the secondary market needs tighter regulation and oversight, and the tertiary market should be considered betting and predominantly outlawed.

I think private schools should be outlawed, and that all schooling, including all postsecondary training, should be publicly funded - but not by local property taxes. Funds should be distributed on a per-attendee basis, and all primary and secondary schools should offer rich non-core education in art, music, etc. I support teachers - including university professors - being employees of the government whose primary goal is to teach, not to publish. Academic research should be a separate endeavor from education.

I think doctors, pharmacists, and all other providers of medical care should be government employees paid reasonable salaries. I think that a hybrid public-private system comparable to Medicare Advantage or the Swiss system are the most reasonable approaches, so that basic care and catastrophic care are covered as a communal good, but still allowing additional services or alternative cost arrangements to be handled by the private market.

I'm also completely for free speech, and I support gun ownership, but I'd like to see training and annual qualifications put in place.

I do not at all support extrajudicial punishment meted out by the mob, nor do I think that ideological conformity and purity has any value whatsoever.

Perhaps you stick me in the "oh evil right winger" camp because you are intractable about allowing other people to have values and views that don't align with your own, and are steeped in black-and-white thinking?
Or in other words a far right fascist nazi bigot white supremecist......

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Old 8th October 2021, 03:53 PM   #91
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Emily's cat is right though, what's the point of attacking conservatives or Republicans on this forum, about all that they or I could add there is a bit of nuance, the not all conservatives. Trump is terrible, anti-democratic, and authoratarian, he's just not a fascist or a NAZI, he's not smart enough. The folks in the GOP are also terrible, but for totally understandable reasons, largely connected to various well known cognitive biases, not because they are also Fascists or NAZIs or bigots. But all that will just mean, I'm also a NAZI, a Fascist, and a bigot.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:01 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you see that, you should delete your Cookies and search history.
It would be hard to find anyone who agrees with that unless the life of the mother is at stake.
I posted some polling results in the Texas Abortion thread that demonstrate that about 20% of Americans think that abortion should not be limited at all. This was defended by several posters in that thread, it is not an uncommon belief. Roughly 10% of Americans think abortion should always be illegal. Based on the media and internet, you'd think it was pretty much everyone that believe on or the other end of that spectrum.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:16 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Or in other words a far right fascist nazi bigot white supremecist......
YEP, BUSTED!!
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:21 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Anyone else remember when political opinions had to do with politics and governing principles, and cultural or social opinions were largely separate from them?

Pepperidge farms remembers.
I certainly don't. Political opinions always have to do with cultural, social, and moral opinions. They are inseparable.

If a person supports political policies that harm people, that person is morally wrong.
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:31 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
90% of the posters on this site are very far left progressives, some quite extreme. 90% of the content in social issues and politics are vociferously anti-right. 90% of the time I make a single comment in agreement, and then there's nothing more to be learned or engaged in for that thread. Echo chambers are boring, and I don't feel a need to prove that I'm just as vitriolic as the next person. But holy cow, for the 1% of the content where I criticize the extremist progressive views, boy oh boy that makes me a "republican".

It's silly. If you actually stepped back from your ideological biases, you and I actually agree on quite a bit - even in the thread that shall not be named. But somewhere along the way you've decided that I'm your enemy, because I don't 100% completely agree with you on things that even you don't have full agreement with the ideology on.
This statement is telling, "90% of the posters on this site are very far left progressives, some quite extreme." and shows how far away from reality your views are.

I would certainly consider myself far-left (and you would probably call me extreme) and there are very few of us on this board. The majority of posters here are liberals and are certainly to the right of someone like me. But you are even further to the right where you see bog-standard liberals as leftists. Painting this forum as extreme is laughable and doesn't help your case.

You and your allies are absolutely my enemy, you are right about that, and for good reason. Stop trying to discriminate against us and I would be more understanding. We will never see eye to eye as long as you hold 'gender critical' views.

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Old 8th October 2021, 04:56 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Or in other words a far right fascist nazi bigot white supremecist......
inorite? I'm literally a rightwing devil!
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Old 8th October 2021, 04:59 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Emily's cat is right though, what's the point of attacking conservatives or Republicans on this forum, about all that they or I could add there is a bit of nuance, the not all conservatives.
To be fair, I also have some of the wingiest right wingers on ignore and refuse to engage in discussion with them, even second hand. I think I have only two far wingy left winger on ignore, and that has more to do with their style of engagement than anything else. I have maybe a dozen people on ignore where I have no idea what their political views are, I just find their content to be awfully full of noise, and it's much easier to follow discussion if I can pretend they don't exist.
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Old 8th October 2021, 06:16 PM   #98
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The harsh criticism of posters for seemingly always "defending the extremists" does kind of defeat the point of the subforum. What else is there to discuss? Let's nitpick and hairsplit. Sometimes the fine distinctions can make a difference.
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Old 8th October 2021, 07:21 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I certainly don't. Political opinions always have to do with cultural, social, and moral opinions. They are inseparable.

If a person supports political policies that harm people, that person is morally wrong.
Then all people are morally wrong, one way or the other. Somebody is getting hurt somewhere by many political policies.

Which is kind of cool, in a guilt-alleviating way.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then all people are morally wrong, one way or the other. Somebody is getting hurt somewhere by many political policies.
... for various definitions of "hurt"

If you mean "hurt" as in hurting rich people financially when they are made to pay their fair share in taxes, or hurting entitled white people socially by making them share the country with black and brown people, then guilty as charged.

However, I have yet to find a Democrat policy that actually harms ordinary people. There are plenty of GOP policies that do a lot of hurting...

Opposing vaccine mandates
Encourage people not to vaccinate
Opposing Mask mandates
Opposing legal abortion
Supporting unrestricted gun rights
Removing medical aid
Gutting voting tights
Gutting LGBTQ rights
Denying climate change
Denying aid to hurricane-stricken areas
Privatized prisons
Weakening the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
Undermining science in general
Pretending 1/6 was a tourist visit by pAtRiOts!
Ending DACA
Spending billions building a completely unnecessary wall, that doesn't work
Forcible separating children from their parent and then imprisoning the those children in wire cages.

Maybe you could come up with some current Democrat policies that do this type of harm to ordinary, middle and low income people.

I'll be waiting.
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Old 8th October 2021, 09:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
... for various definitions of "hurt"
No, for the normal definition of hurt.

The US government is a behemoth. It does not tread lightly. It cannot move with finesse. But above all, there are never policy solutions, only policy tradeoffs. No matter what you do, there will be winners and losers. The best we can ever hope for is to minimize the number of losers and maximize the number of winners. But your policy preferences, whatever they are, are always going to hurt someone. Government is not delicate enough to operate any other way.
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:47 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Anyone else remember when political opinions had to do with politics and governing principles, and cultural or social opinions were largely separate from them?
How old are you?
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Old 9th October 2021, 12:56 PM   #103
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Of all places I discuss politics, I think this is the one where I'm least likely to find intolerant conservatives pretending to be more moderate than they are, or in delusion about how far right they are.

For the most part if someone has an opinion that doesn't quite align with mine, I can usually rely on it not being a gateway to something I object to even more. It's a fantastic opportunity to get a real discussion in if people are willing to not be so jumpy.
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Old 9th October 2021, 02:20 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Of all places I discuss politics, I think this is the one where I'm least likely to find intolerant conservatives pretending to be more moderate than they are, or in delusion about how far right they are.

For the most part if someone has an opinion that doesn't quite align with mine, I can usually rely on it not being a gateway to something I object to even more. It's a fantastic opportunity to get a real discussion in if people are willing to not be so jumpy.
I share your thoughts.
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Old 9th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, on this forum, you defend pretty much all the things the right supports and that the left criticises, and criticise the same things that the right criticises, such as the so-called (but in fact non-existent) "cancel culture", and that the left supports.

On the basis of 'if it talks like a duck, posts like a duck and defends all the things a duck defends, then its a duck', I must conclude that you are probably a right winger, or at the very least a very conservative leaning centrist - and therefore a GOP supporter.
I was waiting for the smilie at the end, but you are serious!!!

And utterly wrong.
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Old 11th October 2021, 10:01 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How about the entirely unreasonable notion that while abortion is generally bad and undesirable and should be discouraged if possible, it should nevertheless be available to everybody when there is a good reason for it?
Nope, that is extreme moderate. You make what i view as needless concessions in order to maintain a false view of what is actually being argued.
I know you're mot American. To me i don't care if, in this instance, one has a poor view of the use of abortion as birth control. I can refuse my son a life saving transplant for zero reasons and let him die, and there is no judge or jury that could convict me
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:47 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
I can refuse my son a life saving transplant for zero reasons and let him die, and there is no judge or jury that could convict me
I don't think that's correct - you can be charged with neglect.

Anyway, the state can remove the child from your care and take the decision away from you. https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/in...ment-to-a.html
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:51 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I don't think that's correct - you can be charged with neglect.

Anyway, the state can remove the child from your care and take the decision away from you. https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/in...ment-to-a.html
While there are some nuances, there have been cases of parents in the USofA doing just that and not being punished. They just need to claim its part of their sincerely held religious beliefs.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-neglect-laws/
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Old 11th October 2021, 12:05 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It doesn't have to be non-political (though I suppose if we were talking about the lack of middle in countries around the globe, it may get moved to non-US and world politics), it just doesn't have to be US-centric.

In England*, IMO the middle has become the Labour Party, or more accurately the Labour Party has become the middle in response to the Conservative Party taking a lurch to the right on many things. 10 years ago I'd have said that the nominally centrist party, the Liberal Democrats, were slightly more left wing than the Labour Party but then they got into a disastrous coalition with the Conservatives, got completely played, and are now in considerable disarray.

Back then there was less need for a left wing party but the erosion of environmental and workers' protections, the increasing surveillance society, the Brexit-enabled descent into right-wing populism and the steep rise in wealth and income inequality has meant that we're regressing to the conditions which triggered the creation and rise of the Labour Party as a left wing organization.

* It's more complicated in Wales and Scotland where the nationalist parties are left-leaning but primarily focusing on eventually achieving independence. I won't pretend to know anything about Northern Ireland
In another thread (the one Cosmik Yak started about US conservatives) I was going to try and explain to him just how insanely right wing the majority of republicans have become. I got into a yelling match with my dad for telling him yes, yes I am voting for Biden. I have literally been called a commie by family members. That said, were I a UK resident, and before Boris I would've been an anyone but Corbin's Labour party voter. Theresa May is further left than Hillary Clinton IMO. And my issues with Boris are less politics than the fact he's clearly Trump light.

I am the middle. In most of the worlds democracies I'd usually vote centre-right. But not in this loony tunes country.

FYI I follow UK politics fairly closely, I even have methods of watching BBC iPlayer in the USA (its actually trivially easy, and yeah yeah I know I don't pay the license fee how dare I, deal with it).

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Old 12th October 2021, 01:46 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
In another thread (the one Cosmik Yak started about US conservatives) I was going to try and explain to him just how insanely right wing the majority of republicans have become. I got into a yelling match with my dad for telling him yes, yes I am voting for Biden. I have literally been called a commie by family members. That said, were I a UK resident, and before Boris I would've been an anyone but Corbin's Labour party voter. Theresa May is further left than Hillary Clinton IMO. And my issues with Boris are less politics than the fact he's clearly Trump light.

I am the middle. In most of the worlds democracies I'd usually vote centre-right. But not in this loony tunes country.

FYI I follow UK politics fairly closely, I even have methods of watching BBC iPlayer in the USA (its actually trivially easy, and yeah yeah I know I don't pay the license fee how dare I, deal with it).
I'm a lifelong Labour Party voter, or more accurately I've voted Labour in most elections I've been able to vote in since the mid-80s. I was also a long-term Labour Party member and was part of the cadre which pushed for the party to move out of the politics of the 60's and 70's, face facts and embrace New Labour. I have since left the party.

Although I had objections to some of Corbyn's most left-wing policies, my primary objection to him was his unelectability.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:15 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post

Although I had objections to some of Corbyn's most left-wing policies, my primary objection to him was his unelectability.
Indeed. I have seen enough ideologically pure but unelectable Australian Labor Party oppositions (including the current one who wonít unseat the worst PM ever) to last several lifetimes.

The first objective of an opposition party is to get elected. Full stop.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:56 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
From two days ago:
Hackers Warn That If Demands Arenít Met They Will Reactivate Facebook

(and yes, I know it's satire... but is it really?)
Remember when Hotmail was ? Now it's in the middle.
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Old 12th October 2021, 04:53 AM   #113
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The middle is still around, desperately trying to cling to power and relevancy even as the system they built crumbles all around them.

Any discussion on polarization and the loss of a "common ground" would be incomplete without stating the plainly observable fact that the middle, or bipartisan consensus, or whatever you want to call it, is showing itself to be an abject failure.

Be it neoliberal economic policies that see the complete erosion of living standards for working people, a divestment of the public sector that sees institutions and infrastructure decaying (often literally) around us, the natsec consensus that has lead to decades of pointless military adventures that have only made us less safe and less free, total inaction to open corruption in the halls of power, and so on, it's not hard to see why alternative ideologies are a dime a dozen these days.

The middle has utterly beclowned itself and repeatedly shown themselves not to be up to the task at hand.
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Old 12th October 2021, 11:04 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
How about the entirely unreasonable notion that while abortion is generally bad and undesirable and should be discouraged if possible, it should nevertheless be available to everybody when there is a good reason for it?
This what most Americans, about 70% of us would be fine with. We can't have nice things because the other roughly 30% that can't even admit they're extremes.
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Old 12th October 2021, 05:51 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Indeed. I have seen enough ideologically pure but unelectable Australian Labor Party oppositions (including the current one who wonít unseat the worst PM ever) to last several lifetimes.

The first objective of an opposition party is to get elected. Full stop.
Remember Kim Beazley? That guy could oppose. If John Howard stood up and say that the sky was blue, Beazley would stand up and say it was red.
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Old 12th October 2021, 06:45 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
This what most Americans, about 70% of us would be fine with. We can't have nice things because the other roughly 30% that can't even admit they're extremes.
I just went and dug up the raws to see they had to roll in ‘legal in all’ (8%) and ‘legal in most’ (11%) to arrive at their bar-graphed ‘legal in most or all’ number. So our actual extremes are 16% against any legal abortion at any time, even in the first trimester or in weird circumstances, and 8% for all legal abortion at any time, full stop.

I’d also propose that the ‘legal in all’ position is actually less extreme than it sounds. The majority of people I’ve heard unpack their reasoning there have simply seen enough **** to believe that for every time that would be abused, a thousand times it would be saving a lot of lives from being harmed and/or wrecked (even if only by having to go through the process of justifying the type most agree is justifiable). If it allows for the possibility of a planned family to go ahead at a later time (that would or might otherwise not happen or be damaged by trauma of having to fight for or being denied an abortion) even moreso.

That is, many of them don’t actually support that right per se, they just don’t trust the system to not **** up in trying to administrate a more restrictive law.

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Old 13th October 2021, 01:17 PM   #117
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There's no such thing as a middle when one end has gone bat**** crazy. Holding on to your sanctimony and pretending to be above it all will only see you hurtling toward the deep as well to balance the two "extremes."
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:20 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There's no such thing as a middle when one end has gone bat**** crazy. Holding on to your sanctimony and pretending to be above it all will only see you hurtling toward the deep as well to balance the two "extremes."
Soo.... "You're either with us or against us!" then?
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Soo.... "You're either with us or against us!" then?
The middle between sanity and insanity is not some insanity.

[ETA] Actually, you know, I think we are at that point. Or somewhere close. I mean, we literally had a coup attempt less than a year ago. Where's the middle ground with treason? A little treason?

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Old 13th October 2021, 02:18 PM   #120
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Like honestly, after an attempted coup and the subsequent party line resistance to accountability for those involved and voting restrictions based off of non existent election fraud are the actions of authoritarians. It was all enabled by blatant cronyism and open flaunting of the law and democracy. Itís ongoing too. What is the middle there and what does a person who laments the loss of the middle identify with that makes that something they can accept? I donít understand that.
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