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Old 16th October 2021, 05:27 AM   #1
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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Herald of Free Enterprise was turned to a shallow bank as soon as the crew realised what was happening the second it left port. The boatswain had not shut the car deck ferry doors, and thus lay on its side, after capsizing, on a shallow bank. Had it been out at sea it would have floated upside down for as long as five days, as with the MS Jan Heweliusz.

Do you see why the Herald of Free Enterprise didn't reach the stage of what happened next after it capsized?

Let me know if you still don't get it.
It sank in just a few minutes because of flooding through the open bow. to do that enough water must have been taken aboard to destabilise then sink the ship otherwise it would still have been afloat.

Have you actually ever read the report in to the sinking, or even any description of the events?


Mod InfoThread continued from here.
Posted By:zooterkin

Last edited by zooterkin; 16th October 2021 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:28 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hang on. I thought you said the car deck was filled with seawater?
When the ship sank yes it was.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Do I need to post a video of a ship heading in to a heavy sea again?
It was motoring at high speed in to 6m waves.

That one set of doors is closed does not mean the deck was 'sealed off' There are multiple doorways, hatches, vents and intakes in the car deck.
If one set of doors is firmly shut and intact, there is a strong likelihood others are, too. Hence the need for further investigation.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:31 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hang on. I thought you said the car deck was filled with seawater?

If the seawater caused it to overbalance and capsize, what does this imply about the level of seawater on what became the upper side?

Put another way: if the ship was listing, which side of the car deck would the water be on?
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:31 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...Had it been out at sea it would have floated upside down for as long as five days, as with the MS Jan Heweliusz.

...

Let me know if you still don't get it.
Who to believe, the official report or Vixen's wot-I-reckon? Tricky.

No, not tricky. You're just wrong.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hang on. I thought you said the car deck was filled with seawater?
Alas, I had misconstrued the construction of the car deck and thought its doors were to either side of the car deck like others I have used, instead of being in a central island. So those doors would indeed have been in the water by the time the ship was only half-sunk.
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Old 16th October 2021, 05:51 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Alas, I had misconstrued the construction of the car deck and thought its doors were to either side of the car deck like others I have used, instead of being in a central island. So those doors would indeed have been in the water by the time the ship was only half-sunk.
They would have been in the water as soon as the car deck started to flood
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Old 16th October 2021, 06:00 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It capsized.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? If so, how come the Estonia capsized then if by your account 'it sank as soon as it filled with water' like those pictures posted by LondonJohn of boat race rowers.
What do you understand that word to mean?
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Old 16th October 2021, 06:26 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They would have been in the water as soon as the car deck started to flood
Yes they would, but their windows wouldn't have been deeply immersed at first.

I'm a little surprised to have read that those doors had windows at all and I'm trying to remember if other such ferry doors I've encountered had them. Maybe so but I don't recall. As car deck doors I suppose their purpose would be to be fireproof as much as watertight and I guess a small fire-resistant window would make sense as you would be able to see what was happening on the car deck before opening them. I wonder how much pressure those windows could withstand. Probably more than the larger windows up on deck 4.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:12 AM   #10
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Passenger doors off the car deck are for access to the upper passenger decks. They are not watertight, their main purpose is to keep passengers off the car deck and to stop exhaust fumes entering the ship and act as fire doors.
Watertight doors aren't needed unless they are giving access to the hull.

A watertight door is not the same as a waterproof door, the latter do not seal compartments against flooding.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
If the seawater caused it to overbalance and capsize, what does this imply about the level of seawater on what became the upper side?

Put another way: if the ship was listing, which side of the car deck would the water be on?
It listed to starboard so that would be on the right.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:19 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What do you understand that word to mean?
capsize
/kapˈsʌɪz/
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(of a boat) be overturned in the water.
"the craft capsized in heavy seas"
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Passenger doors off the car deck are for access to the upper passenger decks. They are not watertight, their main purpose is to keep passengers off the car deck and to stop exhaust fumes entering the ship and act as fire doors.
Watertight doors aren't needed unless they are giving access to the hull.

A watertight door is not the same as a waterproof door, the latter do not seal compartments against flooding.
The JAIC had to assume the windows broke for the water to have subsumed the rest of the ship.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC had to assume the windows broke for the water to have subsumed the rest of the ship.
You really should stop referring to your thesaurus.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC had to assume the windows broke for the water to have subsumed the rest of the ship.
No they don't, there are lots of large opening in the ship to allow water ingress.
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Old 16th October 2021, 07:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
capsize
/kapˈsʌɪz/
Learn to pronounce
verb
(of a boat) be overturned in the water.
"the craft capsized in heavy seas"
So you think it's an either/or situation. Either a ship capsizes or it sinks.

Is that what you are saying?
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Old 16th October 2021, 08:18 AM   #17
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Capsize does not mean that a boat or ship has to turn through 180 degrees
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Old 16th October 2021, 09:12 AM   #18
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13630758

You're still conflating buoyancy with stability. What makes a ship capsize is not the same thing as what makes it sink. My whole point was to illustrate to you the difference, which you still cannot grasp because you're still just parroting Anders Björkmann and thinking this makes your point unassailable. You were given the opportunity to direct a practical experiment in stability versus buoyancy. You refused to participate, citing the "principles" as the substance of your claim. Now it's clear you don't understand the principles either.
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Old 16th October 2021, 10:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC had to assume the windows broke for the water to have subsumed the rest of the ship.
What is your reference for this claim please?

Also can you confirm you are talking about the windows in the car deck doors (the subject of the post you replied to) and not other windows on other decks?

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Old 16th October 2021, 10:44 AM   #20
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I love how suddenly there was no way the Estonia should have sunk due to a mythical buoyancy which has never existed in any seagoing vessel unless there were other holes in the ship other than the OPEN CAR DECK RAMP.

Once the ship was on its side the exterior upper decks were accessible to the high seas meaning ventilation ducts, unsecured doors, broken windows, and eventually the smoke stack would have allowed for flooding.

I don't know why this needs to be explained.

It must be pointed out that this is also inconsistent with a conspiracy where explosives were used to sing the ship since the obvious weak point would have been the visor. This is what happens when CTists talk in circles.
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Old 16th October 2021, 10:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is what happens when CTists talk in circles.
Right, it's an easily-discerned feature of arguments that run away (in any an all directions) from an undesired conclusion instead of toward (the few directions) where all the evidence actually points.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I love how suddenly there was no way the Estonia should have sunk due to a mythical buoyancy which has never existed in any seagoing vessel unless there were other holes in the ship other than the OPEN CAR DECK RAMP.

Once the ship was on its side the exterior upper decks were accessible to the high seas meaning ventilation ducts, unsecured doors, broken windows, and eventually the smoke stack would have allowed for flooding.

I don't know why this needs to be explained.

It must be pointed out that this is also inconsistent with a conspiracy where explosives were used to sing the ship since the obvious weak point would have been the visor. This is what happens when CTists talk in circles.
Explosive charges were used to either blow off the visor, blow a hole in the hull or in the form of torpedoes or stray WW2 mines.

Or a combination of all of the above including being rammed by a submarine.
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Old 16th October 2021, 11:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Explosive charges were used to either blow off the visor, blow a hole in the hull or in the form of torpedoes or stray WW2 mines.

Or a combination of all of the above including being rammed by a submarine.
You forgot the radioactive waste eating its way through the visor.
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Old 16th October 2021, 01:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vixen
A boat is designed to float. Why would anyone deliberately try to make it sink. It doesn't disprove anything, does it? You can make it sink by simply drilling a hole in the hull. Why waste time filling it with water?

To test your claim, of course. This one:

Originally Posted by Vixen
Take a simple rowing boat, wood frame, operated by oars. There are no leaks.
Any imbalance or inflow of water, the boat simply capsizes toppling its contents into the water. It doesn't sink, it floats upside down ceteris paribus.

If I drilled a hole in it, there would no longer be "no leaks." Since you haven't put any constraints on any imbalance or inflow of water, it would appear I can wield my bucket however I see fit. But I don't want you to be able to say I've somehow gotten the inflow of water wrong violating some condition hidden in "ceteris paribus", so I await your instructions for how to sink my rowboat with a flow of water that will cause it to float upside down.
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Old 16th October 2021, 04:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
To test your claim, of course. This one:

If I drilled a hole in it, there would no longer be "no leaks." Since you haven't put any constraints on any imbalance or inflow of water, it would appear I can wield my bucket however I see fit. But I don't want you to be able to say I've somehow gotten the inflow of water wrong violating some condition hidden in "ceteris paribus", so I await your instructions for how to sink my rowboat with a flow of water that will cause it to float upside down.
There is no rational response to your points, so they need to be subsumed into a sea of obfuscation, waffle and Gishing. Or totally ignored. We shall see.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:48 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So you think it's an either/or situation. Either a ship capsizes or it sinks.

Is that what you are saying?
No.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
What is your reference for this claim please?

Also can you confirm you are talking about the windows in the car deck doors (the subject of the post you replied to) and not other windows on other decks?
There are no side windows in the car deck so the JAIC must be referring to inner windows.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:53 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I love how suddenly there was no way the Estonia should have sunk due to a mythical buoyancy which has never existed in any seagoing vessel unless there were other holes in the ship other than the OPEN CAR DECK RAMP.

Once the ship was on its side the exterior upper decks were accessible to the high seas meaning ventilation ducts, unsecured doors, broken windows, and eventually the smoke stack would have allowed for flooding.

I don't know why this needs to be explained.

It must be pointed out that this is also inconsistent with a conspiracy where explosives were used to sing the ship since the obvious weak point would have been the visor. This is what happens when CTists talk in circles.
That might be so but it wouldn't sink in record time.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Explosive charges were used to either blow off the visor, blow a hole in the hull or in the form of torpedoes or stray WW2 mines.

Or a combination of all of the above including being rammed by a submarine.
Many a true word spoken in jest, except torpedoes can be small and likewise limpet mines, not necessarily WWII ones.
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Old 17th October 2021, 01:56 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You forgot the radioactive waste eating its way through the visor.
There's that, too, according to Harri Ruotsalainen, JAIC engineer investigator.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
To test your claim, of course. This one:




If I drilled a hole in it, there would no longer be "no leaks." Since you haven't put any constraints on any imbalance or inflow of water, it would appear I can wield my bucket however I see fit. But I don't want you to be able to say I've somehow gotten the inflow of water wrong violating some condition hidden in "ceteris paribus", so I await your instructions for how to sink my rowboat with a flow of water that will cause it to float upside down.
Myriad, I don't want you to sink your rowboat.

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Old 17th October 2021, 02:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Many a true word spoken in jest, except torpedoes can be small and likewise limpet mines, not necessarily WWII ones.
That would be those Swedish Jumping Torpedoes, that leap out of the water and explode above the waterline, no doubt.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
That would be those Swedish Jumping Torpedoes, that leap out of the water and explode above the waterline, no doubt.
It is no more outrageous than the idea of the bow visor falling off because of the slap of a wave at Swedish midnight.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:28 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Myriad, I don't want you to sink your rowboat.

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You avoided his very simple question, one that stemmed from your self-contradictory statements. Why?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:28 AM   #35
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Here is the effect of a limpet mine. Doesn't need to blow the whole ship out of the water, as Captain_Swoop claims.


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Old 17th October 2021, 02:35 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is no more outrageous than the idea of the bow visor falling off because of the slap of a wave at Swedish midnight.
Not a claim anyone has made (well, except you).
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is no more outrageous than the idea of the bow visor falling off because of the slap of a wave at Swedish midnight.

Just as well that nobody is suggesting that, then.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:39 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is the effect of a limpet mine. Doesn't need to blow the whole ship out of the water, as Captain_Swoop claims.


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I don't recall Captain_Swoop making this claim. Would you care to link to the post where this happened, please?

Maybe you have confused him with another poster, or maybe you misread a post, or misunderstood one.

Maybe you're just lying.
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Last edited by junkshop; 17th October 2021 at 02:42 AM. Reason: Wrong tense
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is the effect of a limpet mine. Doesn't need to blow the whole ship out of the water, as Captain_Swoop claims.

Doesn’t seem to have sunk the ship either.
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:52 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You forgot the radioactive waste eating its way through the visor.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There's that, too, according to Harri Ruotsalainen, JAIC engineer investigator.
I thought his 'theory' was the one about opening the cardeck en route, and pushing vehicle/s out?

Was he just throwing every ******* crazy idea at the wall to see what would stick? That's a weird way to proceed, if you want anyone to take you seriously.
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