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Old 21st October 2021, 03:12 PM   #361
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So the official investigators consider favorably the proposition that the Herald of Free Enterprise stopped its roll at roughly 90° not because it had struck bottom, but because this is where the roll equilibrium was obtained while still afloat.

Ah, but you (and they) fail to understand that there was this body of air in the hull, which remained in situ even when the ship was at a 90-degree capsize, (when the boundary of this air "pocket" was vertical rather than horizontal....) and would most certainly have resulted in the ship <ahem> turtling and floating for a considerable period of time - had the sandbank not intervened.

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Old 22nd October 2021, 12:28 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... it clearly states divers had to use special 'spike' cutting equipment on decks 4 and 5 to get in, and oxy-acetyline cutters.
You misunderstand again and you're trying to imagine their window-breaking tools are more exotic and specialised than the reality of a metal spike and a hammer. You shatter a toughened window by hitting it near one corner with a hard, pointed object. They did not use oxy-acetylene to cut glass. They used it to make the aperture larger.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:12 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Are you talking about divers gaining access through windows on the port side, which are now on the upper side of the wreck, or on the starboard side which were the ones thought to have been smashed?
The JAIC clearly states it was the windows on the 'aft deck' that were likely broken by the waves, ditto the Rockwater report of where they had to cut the windows with a marlin spike and breakdown dividers (doors) with oxy-acetyline cutters.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:16 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And how many times have you claimed that it would have turned turtle but for the shallow water in which it sank? More ... that turning turtle is pretty much inevitable when any boat capsizes in deep water?

No, what's preposterous is that you have the sheer nerve to use a 'laughing dog' in any of your replies. Your contributions here have been worthy of derision from the beginning.
I didn't say it was inevitable but as a rule of thumb, it wouldn't remain floating on its side before sinking. Ships do not float on their side for long ceteris paribus (assuming there are no sails propping it up in the water).
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:18 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nobody tell her about MS Express Samina. Hit a rock, rolled to 90ish degrees, stopped rolling, and sank on its side. It's resting on its side on the bottom. Deep enough to sink, deep enough to "turn turtle," but the ship refused to obey Vixen-physics. So why didn't it continue rolling to 180 degrees? Also, those investigators seemed to think the vast, uncompartmentalized car deck was a problem for stability.
Er...

Quote:
At 22:12 local time (20:12 UTC), 2 nmi off the port of Parikia, Paros, the ship hit the reef of Portes islets[5] at 18 knots.

The MS Express Samina hit the reefs. Hull smashed.



End of.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:20 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Why is it preposterous for your critics to opine what the ship would have done if the water had been deeper, but not preposterous for you to do exactly the same thing? In your case, your prediction comes from a known, discredited crackpot -- even if you think that not citing your source, or making vague irrelevant references to Archimedes, somehow makes it okay. In our case, the prediction comes from the experts who investigated the accident. What's preposterous is an accountant with demonstrably little if any expertise in ship stability (or physics in general) pretending she can just keep spewing "Because I say so" arguments and hiding behind laughing dogs when challenged.
JayUtah, dahlink, you know as well as I do a ship does not float on its superstructure. You sound like you are obsessed with this 'crackpot' fellah. He must have really rattled your cage.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:21 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The point of this is that the bulkheads can be as watertight as you like but if the flooding is coming from above they count for nothing.
'If' being the operative word, when eyewitnesses from Deck 1 relate there was no water coming down the stairs.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:28 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah, but you (and they) fail to understand that there was this body of air in the hull, which remained in situ even when the ship was at a 90-degree capsize, (when the boundary of this air "pocket" was vertical rather than horizontal....) and would most certainly have resulted in the ship <ahem> turtling and floating for a considerable period of time - had the sandbank not intervened.

Look, let's make this really simple. A swimmer. He or she knows that it is easier to float on your back than your stomach. Likewise, a boat can float either upright or upside down. In fact, buoyancy is invariably better when it is upside down. So, upside down or upright, we have neutral stability. Question: what happens when the swimmer turns on to his or her side?

Think about it and let me know how long this person will float in that position and why.

What happens as this person sinks? Does he or she stay rigidly sideways?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:42 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say it was inevitable but as a rule of thumb, it wouldn't remain floating on its side before sinking. Ships do not float on their side for long ceteris paribus (assuming there are no sails propping it up in the water).
Why is it a 'rule of thumb'? Only a small number of ships turn right over before sinking. By far the vast majority sink while remaining on a more or less even keel or after turning on to their side.
Only a tiny number float upside down. These tend to be ships that capsize quickly with very little flooding in the hull. Only a small number of these stay afloat for any length of time.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:43 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er...



The MS Express Samina hit the reefs. Hull smashed.

End of.
But why didn't it turn upside down before sinking if that is the 'rule of thumb'?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:44 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'If' being the operative word, when eyewitnesses from Deck 1 relate there was no water coming down the stairs.
but the machinery spaces were flooding, power was lost and they had to be abandoned.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:46 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, let's make this really simple. A swimmer. He or she knows that it is easier to float on your back than your stomach. Likewise, a boat can float either upright or upside down. In fact, buoyancy is invariably better when it is upside down. So, upside down or upright, we have neutral stability. Question: what happens when the swimmer turns on to his or her side?

Think about it and let me know how long this person will float in that position and why.

What happens as this person sinks? Does he or she stay rigidly sideways?
A swimmer is not a ship.

How is the buoyancy of a boat 'better' if it is upside down?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:57 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is it a 'rule of thumb'? Only a small number of ships turn right over before sinking. By far the vast majority sink while remaining on a more or less even keel or after turning on to their side.
Only a tiny number float upside down. These tend to be ships that capsize quickly with very little flooding in the hull. Only a small number of these stay afloat for any length of time.
Only a tiny number sink without a breach to the hull.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 02:57 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But why didn't it turn upside down before sinking if that is the 'rule of thumb'?
Because the hull was breached? This affects buoyancy?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:00 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
but the machinery spaces were flooding, power was lost and they had to be abandoned.
But where was the flooding first? There is a distinct impression that the third, fourth and newbie engineer were busy in the engine room because they were up to their knees in water and were busy operating the bilge pumps.


Sillaste was the only one who stayed there up until 1:30.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:01 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only a tiny number sink without a breach to the hull.
No, that is wrong.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:02 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But where was the flooding first? There is a distinct impression that the third, fourth and newbie engineer were busy in the engine room because they were up to their knees in water and were busy operating the bilge pumps.


Sillaste was the only one who stayed there up until 1:30.
Where else was the water coming from?
Where is the hole in the hull that would allow the engine room to flood?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:09 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Look, let's make this really simple. A swimmer. He or she knows that it is easier to float on your back than your stomach.
That's a silly comparison. If a swimmer passively floats on their front their face is in the water. This is something of a disadvantage and is generally avoided. With a snorkel it's perfectly easy to float on one's front.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:11 AM   #379
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Estonian Foreign Minister Throws Down the Gauntlet to Sweden

The Fokus group is reorting a news item I missed from last week, citing, the Aftonbladet.se newspaper 13.10.2021.

The Estonian Foreign Minister, Urmas Reinsalu, has sent a formal letter to the Swedish counterpart, Ann Linde (S) and the Finnish Foreign Minister, Pekka Haavisto (Green), setting out the following demands:
  • To identify how the wreck lies on the seabed and investigate how and if the ferry has turned over the years.
  • To investigate the surface of the seabed below and around Estonia.
  • To identify any holes in the wreck and in that case carefully document where on the wreck the hole is located, how big it is and what kind of damage it may be.
  • To find out when in time the injury occurred and how the injury affected the course of the disaster.

The Swedish minister overseeing the M/S Estonia issue, Minister of the Interior Mikael Damberg (S), wrote back in reply: "There is a need to jointly discuss possible alternative measures and analyze the conditions for these in a way that takes into account the international agreement on grave peace to protect Estonia from all forms of disruptive activities".

In other words, playing the 'grave peace' card, when there was nothing to stop them from recovering the bodies at the outset and salvaging the wreck.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:13 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That's a silly comparison. If a swimmer passively floats on their front their face is in the water. This is something of a disadvantage and is generally avoided. With a snorkel it's perfectly easy to float on one's front.
I am sure it is but the fact remains it is easier to float on your back than on your stomach. This is to do with centre of buoyancy and little to do with whether you have a snorkel or not. The snorkel simply enables you to examine what is going on underwater and hence you need to be facing down.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:17 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where else was the water coming from?
Where is the hole in the hull that would allow the engine room to flood?
From the starboard breach in the hull. If you recall, there were a series of bangs/or a bang, as witnessed by some survivors, and/or sensations of a collision/massive jolt just before the vessel listed violently towards starboard.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:25 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sure it is but the fact remains it is easier to float on your back than on your stomach. This is to do with centre of buoyancy and little to do with whether you have a snorkel or not. The snorkel simply enables you to examine what is going on underwater and hence you need to be facing down.
Please explain why rather than just make the assertion. The snorkel enables you to breathe and comfortably float face down rather than hold your breath.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:26 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sure it is but the fact remains it is easier to float on your back than on your stomach. This is to do with centre of buoyancy and little to do with whether you have a snorkel or not. The snorkel simply enables you to examine what is going on underwater and hence you need to be facing down.
It is as easy to float on your front as it is your back.

Ask a diver.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:27 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
From the starboard breach in the hull. If you recall, there were a series of bangs/or a bang, as witnessed by some survivors, and/or sensations of a collision/massive jolt just before the vessel listed violently towards starboard.
That 'breach' is above the waterline and forward. How is it flooding the machinery spaces?

There are four sets of stairways and lifts along the length of the Estonia, the two main, and largest of these are above the machinery spaces towards the after end of the ship.
Estonia was sinking by the stern, flooding was worse in the after portion of the ship.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 22nd October 2021 at 03:33 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:35 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It is as easy to float on your front as it is your back.

Ask a diver.
We were not talking about artificial aids such as scuba tanks, flippers and snorkels, we were talking about the human body in its own right, hence the qualifier 'ceteris paribus'. So yeah, sure you can even bring in the topic of airbeds or specialist synchronised Olympic swimmers, if you like, but it doesn't cancel out the point being made.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:46 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were not talking about artificial aids such as scuba tanks, flippers and snorkels, we were talking about the human body in its own right, hence the qualifier 'ceteris paribus'. So yeah, sure you can even bring in the topic of airbeds or specialist synchronised Olympic swimmers, if you like, but it doesn't cancel out the point being made.
You don't need 'artificial aids'
It is just as easy to float on your front as your back. This is not controversial, get in a pool and try it.
It is easier to breath when you are floating on your back for obvious reasons, that is the only difference.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 03:48 AM   #387
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Vixen, what is a marlinspike? How is it used to cut glass?
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Old 22nd October 2021, 04:17 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Vixen, what is a marlinspike? How is it used to cut glass?
Remembering that it is toughened glass as found in car windows.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 04:31 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were not talking about artificial aids such as scuba tanks, flippers and snorkels, we were talking about the human body in its own right, hence the qualifier 'ceteris paribus'. So yeah, sure you can even bring in the topic of airbeds or specialist synchronised Olympic swimmers, if you like, but it doesn't cancel out the point being made.
Oh yes it does… but you keep doing you.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 04:55 AM   #390
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Certain colorful expressions I learned as a civilian employee of the Coast Guard in the late 1970s suggest there might be gender- sex-based differences in the most stable floating attitude of the adult human body, at least when unconscious or dead.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:01 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Remembering that it is toughened glass as found in car windows.
No fire truck ever leaves the station without a marlinspike and hammer.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:19 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Likewise, a boat can float either upright or upside down. In fact, buoyancy is invariably better when it is upside down.
That used to be the case, but boatbuilders soon realized, and now they build all boats upside-down in the first place - they just put everything inside the boat upside-down as well so if you're inside (or outside) you don't notice the difference.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:27 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The JAIC clearly states it was the windows on the 'aft deck' that were likely broken by the waves, ditto the Rockwater report of where they had to cut the windows with a marlin spike and breakdown dividers (doors) with oxy-acetyline cutters.
Doesn't address the relevant point. Again.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:29 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'If' being the operative word, when eyewitnesses from Deck 1 relate there was no water coming down the stairs.
So you've eliminated one unidentified staircase as the route the water took.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:31 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That used to be the case, but boatbuilders soon realized, and now they build all boats upside-down in the first place - they just put everything inside the boat upside-down as well so if you're inside (or outside) you don't notice the difference.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 05:56 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Only a tiny number sink without a breach to the hull.
Surely, the failure of the bow visor is pretty similar to a breach of the hull?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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Old 22nd October 2021, 06:00 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I am sure it is but the fact remains it is easier to float on your back than on your stomach. This is to do with centre of buoyancy and little to do with whether you have a snorkel or not. The snorkel simply enables you to examine what is going on underwater and hence you need to be facing down.
I wonder if corpses tend to float face up or face down or neither.

Let's make an experiment. I got a shovel. And a gun, if freshness matters, but that might constitute a hull breach.

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Old 22nd October 2021, 06:06 AM   #398
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were not talking about artificial aids such as scuba tanks, flippers and snorkels, we were talking about the human body in its own right, hence the qualifier 'ceteris paribus'. So yeah, sure you can even bring in the topic of airbeds or specialist synchronised Olympic swimmers, if you like, but it doesn't cancel out the point being made.
Weird, then, that floating face down is a survival technique.

https://www.sportsrec.com/survival-float-6582.html

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Old 22nd October 2021, 06:22 AM   #399
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We were not talking about artificial aids such as scuba tanks, flippers and snorkels, we were talking about the human body in its own right, hence the qualifier 'ceteris paribus'. So yeah, sure you can even bring in the topic of airbeds or specialist synchronised Olympic swimmers, if you like, but it doesn't cancel out the point being made.
In the case in question the snorkel is not an aid to buoyancy, merely an aid to conducting a casual experiment. However, phiwum has just posted another refutation of your claim that requires no breathing aid.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 06:25 AM   #400
whoanellie
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That used to be the case, but boatbuilders soon realized, and now they build all boats upside-down in the first place - they just put everything inside the boat upside-down as well so if you're inside (or outside) you don't notice the difference.
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Certain colorful expressions I learned as a civilian employee of the Coast Guard in the late 1970s suggest there might be gender- sex-based differences in the most stable floating attitude of the adult human body, at least when unconscious or dead.
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