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Old 17th October 2021, 02:55 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are no side windows in the car deck so the JAIC must be referring to inner windows.
Or any of the hundreds of other windows on the side of the ship?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That might be so but it wouldn't sink in record time.
Who decided it was a 'record time'?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Many a true word spoken in jest, except torpedoes can be small and likewise limpet mines, not necessarily WWII ones.
How small?

The lightest torpedoes in service are the various 'lightweight' air dropped and ship launched anti submarine torpedoes, they still have a warehead of 10 - 100 kg of explosives.

Who would attach a 'limpet mine' to a ship at sea in a storm?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is the effect of a limpet mine. Doesn't need to blow the whole ship out of the water, as Captain_Swoop claims.


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I AGREE
I don't see that ship sinking.

Who would have attached a limpet mine to a ship at sea in a storm?
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Old 17th October 2021, 02:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
You avoided his very simple question, one that stemmed from your self-contradictory statements. Why?
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:00 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I don't recall Captain_Swoop making this claim. Would you care to link to the post where this happened, please?

Maybe you have confused him with another poster, or maybe you misread a post, or misunderstood one.

Maybe you're just lying.
Refer back to videos of boats being blown out of the water.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:00 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Who decided it was a 'record time'?

Norris McWhirter, I expect.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).
When what is 'less than zero'?
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I don't recall Captain_Swoop making this claim. Would you care to link to the post where this happened, please?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Refer back to videos of boats being blown out of the water.
Any in particular, or just generally?

As regards my question, I guess that's a 'no', then.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:05 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).
That's meaningless, but then you don't do science so maybe it's to be expected.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I thought his 'theory' was the one about opening the cardeck en route, and pushing vehicle/s out?

Was he just throwing every ******* crazy idea at the wall to see what would stick? That's a weird way to proceed, if you want anyone to take you seriously.
If the ramp fell open, don't you think the trucks nearest the ramp - i.e., the ones loaded in at the last minute - would automatically fall out due to the sheer force of the sea? In any case, if Ruotsalainen's suspicion is correct, then there are all sorts of reasons the crew involved might want to get rid of the offending truck. For example, it started smoking or there were toxic fumes. Cobalt was a commonly smuggled substance. Finely divided Cobalt is highly flammable and will ignite spontaneously in air. Cobalt-60 in its radioactive form and as used in fuel rods is extremely toxic to humans. Popular in the day - as per CIA sources - was also Uranium U-238. Or maybe there was a tip-off the Swedish SäPo were waiting for it in Stockholm. Note how all the senior officers mysteriously 'disappeared' after being rescued.

Do you really think Ruotsalainen would be making these representations to the Estonian Riksdag unless he had good ground to?

Even Lehtola wanted to measure the wreck for radioactivity.

Add to the fact Sweden wanted to bury the whole thing...
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:14 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I thought his 'theory' was the one about opening the cardeck en route, and pushing vehicle/s out?

Was he just throwing every ******* crazy idea at the wall to see what would stick? That's a weird way to proceed, if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the ramp fell open, don't you think the trucks nearest the ramp - i.e., the ones loaded in at the last minute - would automatically fall out due to the sheer force of the sea? In any case, if Ruotsalainen's suspicion is correct, then there are all sorts of reasons the crew involved might want to get rid of the offending truck. For example, it started smoking or there were toxic fumes. Cobalt was a commonly smuggled substance. Finely divided Cobalt is highly flammable and will ignite spontaneously in air. Cobalt-60 in its radioactive form and as used in fuel rods is extremely toxic to humans. Popular in the day - as per CIA sources - was also Uranium U-238. Or maybe there was a tip-off the Swedish SäPo were waiting for it in Stockholm. Note how all the senior officers mysteriously 'disappeared' after being rescued.

Do you really think Ruotsalainen would be making these representations to the Estonian Riksdag unless he had good ground to?

Even Lehtola wanted to measure the wreck for radioactivity.

Add to the fact Sweden wanted to bury the whole thing...

Whoosh!
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:16 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Or any of the hundreds of other windows on the side of the ship?
The list came after the feelings of bangs and/or a collision. Even Linde said so. Thus, the fact there was a list leading to the capsize and sinking, does not mean it was the root cause of the sinking. In addition, it would take a lot longer than half an hour for all of those reinforced glass portholes to crack enabling seepage of seawater to replace all of the air. In fact, a Russian vessel at Kaliningrad immediately offered to help rescue those who might be trapped inside air bubbles in the wreck, awaiting death or rescue, but strangely, the Swedes wanted no-one but the Swedes at the scene and they were turned down.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:17 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Who decided it was a 'record time'?
Research for yourself. Even Wilhelm Gustloff torpedoed in three places took 45 minutes to sink.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:18 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How small?

The lightest torpedoes in service are the various 'lightweight' air dropped and ship launched anti submarine torpedoes, they still have a warehead of 10 - 100 kg of explosives.

Who would attach a 'limpet mine' to a ship at sea in a storm?
By minisub? Timed device? There are also blank torpedoes that can be fired which can also still cause damage.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I don't see that ship sinking.

Who would have attached a limpet mine to a ship at sea in a storm?
Re Andrea Victory in Fujairah: the Iranians sending the USA a warning.

That wasn't considered a severe storm by local countries.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That's meaningless, but then you don't do science so maybe it's to be expected.
It is something you can look up for yourself.

You have the same resources as me.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:26 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the ramp fell open, don't you think the trucks nearest the ramp - i.e., the ones loaded in at the last minute - would automatically fall out due to the sheer force of the sea? In any case, if Ruotsalainen's suspicion is correct, then there are all sorts of reasons the crew involved might want to get rid of the offending truck. For example, it started smoking or there were toxic fumes. Cobalt was a commonly smuggled substance. Finely divided Cobalt is highly flammable and will ignite spontaneously in air. Cobalt-60 in its radioactive form and as used in fuel rods is extremely toxic to humans. Popular in the day - as per CIA sources - was also Uranium U-238. Or maybe there was a tip-off the Swedish SäPo were waiting for it in Stockholm. Note how all the senior officers mysteriously 'disappeared' after being rescued.

Do you really think Ruotsalainen would be making these representations to the Estonian Riksdag unless he had good ground to?

Even Lehtola wanted to measure the wreck for radioactivity.

Add to the fact Sweden wanted to bury the whole thing...
So now you are back to the crew opening the bow to dispose of lorries causing the ship to sink?

How did the visor become detached?

Why bother with all the theories about explosives if someone opened the bows?
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:27 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
Whoosh!
Is that your impersonation of the seawater?
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:29 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So now you are back to the crew opening the bow to dispose of lorries causing the ship to sink?

How did the visor become detached?

Why bother with all the theories about explosives if someone opened the bows?
That is the question, my friend.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The list came after the feelings of bangs and/or a collision. Even Linde said so. Thus, the fact there was a list leading to the capsize and sinking, does not mean it was the root cause of the sinking. In addition, it would take a lot longer than half an hour for all of those reinforced glass portholes to crack enabling seepage of seawater to replace all of the air. In fact, a Russian vessel at Kaliningrad immediately offered to help rescue those who might be trapped inside air bubbles in the wreck, awaiting death or rescue, but strangely, the Swedes wanted no-one but the Swedes at the scene and they were turned down.
It was free surface effect on the water flooding the car deck that caused the list.
Why would it take longer than half an hour for the windows to break?

Anyone trapped in the ship would have been dead when it reached the bottom.. Check out what breathing atmospheric air does to you at that pressure.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It was free surface effect on the water flooding the car deck that caused the list.
Why would it take longer than half an hour for the windows to break?

Anyone trapped in the ship would have been dead when it reached the bottom.. Check out what breathing atmospheric air does to you at that pressure.
The guys in the Kursk backrooms lasted out for quite a while.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Research for yourself. Even Wilhelm Gustloff torpedoed in three places took 45 minutes to sink.
Who says that the Estonia sank in 'record time'?

On average two ships a week sink. Some of them go down so fast that all the crew are lost.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:31 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Is that your impersonation of the seawater?
Not of the seawater, no.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
By minisub? Timed device? There are also blank torpedoes that can be fired which can also still cause damage.
How would a 'minisub' place a charge on a moving ship at sea in a storm?

A timed charge on the side of the ship above the waterline would be noticed.

What is a 'blank torpedo'?
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:33 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Who says that the Estonia sank in 'record time'?

On average two ships a week sink. Some of them go down so fast that all the crew are lost.
...Because of the reasons I listed yesterday.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:43 AM   #67
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never mind
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:45 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is a 'blank torpedo'?

“Uh... it sounds like some sort of torpedo, Willard...
It might be one of ours.
It says, 'Made in Japan' huh?
Well, it could still be one of ours, Willard.”

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Old 17th October 2021, 03:45 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The guys in the Kursk backrooms lasted out for quite a while.
The Kursk crew were in sealed compartments. They were not in 'air bubbles' in air bubbles at 125 psi. Oxygen starts to become toxic at that pressure and nitrogen iduces 'narcosis' and will render you senseless.
Divers at 60 meters and below switch to an 'hypoxic mixture' with both oxygen and nitrogen replaced with helium. This mixture is 10% oxygen, 70% helium and 20% nitrogen.
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Old 17th October 2021, 03:46 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...Because of the reasons I listed yesterday.
So the people saying it sank in 'record time' is in fact just you?
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:04 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are no side windows in the car deck so the JAIC must be referring to inner windows.
That wasn't what I asked, as usual. What is your reference for your claim that the JAIC assumed the car deck door windows broke. Please.
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Myriad, I don't want you to sink your rowboat.

Why not? I explained how I will easily recover the sunk boat when the tide goes out. There's a full moon (which means larger tidal swings, higher high tide and lower low tide) in a few days.

Do you not want me to test your claim? Are you afraid your claim that inflowing water will certainly cause it to turn upside down might be wrong?
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:10 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That might be so but it wouldn't sink in record time.
How long did it take the Estonia to sink as far as the HOFE sank in a couple of minutes?
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:18 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The guys in the Kursk backrooms lasted out for quite a while.
But at what air pressure?
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Old 17th October 2021, 04:35 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The guys in the Kursk backrooms lasted out for quite a while.

I suspect that the Kursk may have been designed in such a way that its crew wouldn’t die when it submerged.
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Old 17th October 2021, 05:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).

When the centre of gravity is "less than zero"?

Pitifully ignorant.
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Old 17th October 2021, 05:05 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Research for yourself. Even Wilhelm Gustloff torpedoed in three places took 45 minutes to sink.

How long did the Herald of Free Enterprise take to sink, Vixen?

You don't have the first idea what you're talking about.
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Old 17th October 2021, 05:43 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).
Vixen, when what is less than zero will the boat become unstable?
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Old 17th October 2021, 05:57 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the ramp fell open, don't you think the trucks nearest the ramp - i.e., the ones loaded in at the last minute - would automatically fall out due to the sheer force of the sea?
'sheer force of the sea'? Are you referring to the slap of a simple wave a Swedish midnight?
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Old 17th October 2021, 06:16 AM   #80
whoanellie
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 995
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All he has to do is calculate the centre of gravity of the boat and work out at which point it becomes unstable (clue: when it is less than zero).
What does the center of gravity have to do with buoyancy? What, specifically, is the 'it' that becomes 'less than zero'?
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