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Old 18th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #161
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Every time I see this name ...
I mix it up with Anders Lindman, who brought a wildly fantastical element to any thread he joined. No conspiracy theory too bonkers.
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Old 18th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Surely that is not beyond your ken?

I’ve asked our Ken*, and he says he needs you to explain it for him.




*Do you know Ken Peel?
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Old 18th October 2021, 12:59 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Surely that is not beyond your ken?

My kenning is as sharp as a fist-tooth hewn from spark striker, and my similes aren't bad either. Thanks for asking. But, what does it mean when the center of mass is significantly above the center of buoyancy?
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Old 18th October 2021, 01:11 PM   #164
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As a service to this discussion, I conducted an experiment of sorts this summer.

My dear catboat was struck by lightning this summer. The bolt went straight down the mast and out through the hull, leaving a hole right at the the peak of the bow, about three inches long and around a finger's width at its widest point. (My boat is a catboat, with the mast way forward, so the hole ended up inches below the water right at the bow.)

I didn't know about the strike for about 18 hours, when I received a phone call that the boat was sitting low as if it was taking on water. When I arrived, a friend had already been there and with the help of the marina staff, towed it to the dock. There was a foot of water in the cabin.

Now, I didn't complete the experiment and let it sink. We pumped the water and (eventually) discovered the leak and had it towed. But in many ways, I had created a miniature version of the bow visor falling off a ferry. There are two big differences between my little experiment and the ferry. First, the hole was below the waterline and second there was not much in the way of waves (the big storm was actually due the next day).

But roughly the principle is the same. Water flowed in through the bow (in Estonia's case, it was due to waves that were above the waterline of the ferry). The Estonia heeled over due to the wave action and the mass of water inside, which didn't happen to my boat. Had I not been notified of the leak, my boat would have sunk without turtling. Fortunately, my hole was not so large as a bow visor.

So, there you have it. No need to scoop water into a dinghy and see what happens. I sacrificed the better part of my sailing season just to see what happens.

But my boat will be on the water next year. Thank goodness that insurance covers acts of nature.
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Old 18th October 2021, 01:23 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
... Thank goodness that insurance covers acts of nature.
You have a very generous insurance company. If I were in their place, I'm not sure I would class the Mighty Thor* getting off a few practice shots before the storm proper hits as an act of 'nature'.



*or Zeus, I seem to recall that he's partial to chucking the odd thunderbolt around.
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Old 18th October 2021, 01:54 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Surely that is not beyond your ken?
No, nor is it round the horne.

But do you know the answer?
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Old 18th October 2021, 01:55 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
You have a very generous insurance company. If I were in their place, I'm not sure I would class the Mighty Thor* getting off a few practice shots before the storm proper hits as an act of 'nature'.



*or Zeus, I seem to recall that he's partial to chucking the odd thunderbolt around.
A catboat traditionally has a fairly stubby mast. There were a number of sloops nearby with taller masts. The lightning was just spiteful.
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Old 18th October 2021, 02:17 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I mix it up with Anders Lindman, who brought a wildly fantastical element to any thread he joined. No conspiracy theory too bonkers.
Lindman was mostly about cosmology and quantum woo. Bjorkman was or is so nutty that he bought a ban on Simon Shack's cluesforum. He was too nutty for a site that thinks pretty much everything is faked. That takes some doing.
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Old 18th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
A catboat traditionally has a fairly stubby mast. There were a number of sloops nearby with taller masts. The lightning was just spiteful.
Perhaps, or maybe you didn't prostrate yourself quite low enough, maybe your praise wasn't quite heartfelt enough, or was dedicated to the wrong deity? Gods have feelings too, you know. It's not all about you and your boat. Heck, you should consider yourself blessed that the Mighty Thor (or Zeus, or whoever) considered your boat a worthy target for their divine attentions.

Get over yourself.
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Last edited by junkshop; 18th October 2021 at 02:30 PM. Reason: Smiley, for clarification of intent
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Old 18th October 2021, 03:39 PM   #170
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I'm fairly sure Vixen could answer Myriad's question, but fears the follow-up question that would wreck Vixen's 'must turn turtle' claim.
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:06 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So when asked to think for yourself, you simply cite your discredited source once again and wash your hands of it? Is that what's happening here?

You're being asked questions to test your knowledge, Vixen. What does "lack of stability" look like in terms of center of gravity and center of buoyancy? What defines where those points are? What -- as you claim -- makes "center of gravity less than zero?" What forces act effectively at those points? How are they defined? What dictates the magnitudes of those forces? How do the points and forces combine to create (or deny) stability? What factors of a sinking ship affect all those physical parameters?

C'mon, Vixen. Now's your chance to shine. Show us that those "five years of physics" weren't wasted.
If you are expecting me to fill these pages up with formulae and graphics, you will be sorely disappointed. Those who really want to understand the concepts of buoyancy, centre of gravity, stability and instabilty and the metacentre in respect of boats and ships, this youtube video should help.

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Old 19th October 2021, 08:17 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
As a service to this discussion, I conducted an experiment of sorts this summer.

My dear catboat was struck by lightning this summer. The bolt went straight down the mast and out through the hull, leaving a hole right at the the peak of the bow, about three inches long and around a finger's width at its widest point. (My boat is a catboat, with the mast way forward, so the hole ended up inches below the water right at the bow.)

I didn't know about the strike for about 18 hours, when I received a phone call that the boat was sitting low as if it was taking on water. When I arrived, a friend had already been there and with the help of the marina staff, towed it to the dock. There was a foot of water in the cabin.

Now, I didn't complete the experiment and let it sink. We pumped the water and (eventually) discovered the leak and had it towed. But in many ways, I had created a miniature version of the bow visor falling off a ferry. There are two big differences between my little experiment and the ferry. First, the hole was below the waterline and second there was not much in the way of waves (the big storm was actually due the next day).

But roughly the principle is the same. Water flowed in through the bow (in Estonia's case, it was due to waves that were above the waterline of the ferry). The Estonia heeled over due to the wave action and the mass of water inside, which didn't happen to my boat. Had I not been notified of the leak, my boat would have sunk without turtling. Fortunately, my hole was not so large as a bow visor.

So, there you have it. No need to scoop water into a dinghy and see what happens. I sacrificed the better part of my sailing season just to see what happens.

But my boat will be on the water next year. Thank goodness that insurance covers acts of nature.

Sorry to hear about your catboat. If the hole was below the waterline then not sure why it turtle after capsizing?

Here's a visual of a sailboat being struck by lightning and what it might look like.

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Old 19th October 2021, 08:20 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
A catboat traditionally has a fairly stubby mast. There were a number of sloops nearby with taller masts. The lightning was just spiteful.
Spooky. <sfx theme from the Twilight Zone>
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:23 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Lindman was mostly about cosmology and quantum woo. Bjorkman was or is so nutty that he bought a ban on Simon Shack's cluesforum. He was too nutty for a site that thinks pretty much everything is faked. That takes some doing.
That's the Swedes for you.

:
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:23 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you are expecting me to fill these pages up with formulae and graphics, you will be sorely disappointed.
Yes. I am sorely disappointed. You tell us you have "five years" of physics education. You tell us that instead of just parroting outside sources unthinkingly, you prefer to think for yourself. But when push comes to shove, all you can do is post links to others' work without giving any indication that you understand what you're regurgitating.

Quote:
Those who really want to understand the concepts of buoyancy, centre of gravity, stability and instabilty and the metacentre in respect of boats and ships, this youtube video should help.
Yes, the producer of that video has a decent enough grasp of stability in the roll axis to provide part of the explanation we asked you to give. However, that doesn't support your claim that a ship must inevitably capsize. In fact, it rather demonstrates otherwise. I guess you really can't think for yourself, otherwise you'd have noticed that there toward the end of your video.

Let's get something straight. You're not the teacher here. You're dabbling in things that I and others here are professionally qualified and licensed in. Continuing to pretend that you're dispensing wisdom to the benighted will not fix your problem.

Last edited by JayUtah; 19th October 2021 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:24 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's the Swedes for you.

:
So I'm looking at the gorilla in the room. At this point, how much of your performance here should be attributed to hatred of Sweden and the Swedes?
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to hear about your catboat. If the hole was below the waterline then not sure why it turtle after capsizing?
It didn't. I suggest you read that post again.
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Old 19th October 2021, 08:36 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So I'm looking at the gorilla in the room. At this point, how much of your performance here should be attributed to hatred of Sweden and the Swedes?
We love the Swedes...except when it comes to Ice Hockey.
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Old 19th October 2021, 09:07 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to hear about your catboat. If the hole was below the waterline then not sure why it turtle after capsizing?
If the hole was above the waterline, umm, where would they have buried the survivors? Or something.

A small hole below the waterline is just a way of water getting into the boat. It could as easily been waves lapping over the sides or rain falling into it. The problem is the same - water in the boat reducing its buoyancy. You appear to think the manner by which the water arrives is important to the manner in which the boat will settle lower in the water. If so, why?

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 19th October 2021 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 19th October 2021, 09:31 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
If the hole was above the waterline, umm, where would they have buried the survivors?
Grant's Tomb, obviously.
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Old 19th October 2021, 09:42 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes. I am sorely disappointed. You tell us you have "five years" of physics education. You tell us that instead of just parroting outside sources unthinkingly, you prefer to think for yourself. But when push comes to shove, all you can do is post links to others' work...

That’s not entirely true; Vixen has also copied and pasted others’ work without attribution.
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Old 19th October 2021, 12:45 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to hear about your catboat. If the hole was below the waterline then not sure why it turtle after capsizing?

Here's a visual of a sailboat being struck by lightning and what it might look like.

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Are you saying that if the hole is above the waterline, turtling is inevitable, but if it's below the waterline, the boat will sink without turtling?

If so, then we can conclude the only way Estonia could have sunk is by a hole under the waterline. All this nonsense about blowing the visor off, pushing vehicles out the stern or bow, etc., is irrelevant. There has to be a large hole under the waterline, sufficient to let it enough water so that she would sink within an hour or so. That can't be too hard to find, right?
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Old 19th October 2021, 01:05 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Are you saying that if the hole is above the waterline, turtling is inevitable, but if it's below the waterline, the boat will sink without turtling?

If so, then we can conclude the only way Estonia could have sunk is by a hole under the waterline. All this nonsense about blowing the visor off, pushing vehicles out the stern or bow, etc., is irrelevant. There has to be a large hole under the waterline, sufficient to let it enough water so that she would sink within an hour or so. That can't be too hard to find, right?
Remember, she's argued that even though you can see vehicles thru the hole they found, that because they are upside down this makes the car deck below the waterline. So good luck getting her to admit this.
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Old 19th October 2021, 01:49 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you are expecting me to fill these pages up with formulae and graphics, you will be sorely disappointed. Those who really want to understand the concepts of buoyancy, centre of gravity, stability and instabilty and the metacentre in respect of boats and ships, this youtube video should help.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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No. I suspect that he was hoping - as was I - that you would answer his question properly, rather that 1) firstly giving an "answer" that was anything but an answer, then 2) responding to further pressing for an answer by doing what you quite obviously did: putting the salient terms into google, then posting the YouTube video which matched the search terms.... still without even attempting to address the question*.


* The question, incidentally, whose (correct) answer would have shown you how ill-informed you were about the principles behind capsizing and sinking of a ship.
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Old 19th October 2021, 01:55 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Are you saying that if the hole is above the waterline, turtling is inevitable, but if it's below the waterline, the boat will sink without turtling?

If so, then we can conclude the only way Estonia could have sunk is by a hole under the waterline. All this nonsense about blowing the visor off, pushing vehicles out the stern or bow, etc., is irrelevant. There has to be a large hole under the waterline, sufficient to let it enough water so that she would sink within an hour or so. That can't be too hard to find, right?

I don't even know her position any more - other than that it's fundamentally based upon a dogged refusal to believe that the official report might have been broadly correct.

Frankly, by this point I'm frustrated that this thread has descended into a low-quality farce (perhaps not quite as bad as "The Play that went Wrong", but fairly close behind). If there ever was any incremental learning that could be had over the cause of the sinking, it's long-since been subsumed by The Vixen Show (the participation in which has got us precisely.... nowhere).
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Old 19th October 2021, 01:59 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No. I suspect that he was hoping - as was I - that you would answer his question properly, rather that 1) firstly giving an "answer" that was anything but an answer, then 2) responding to further pressing for an answer by doing what you quite obviously did: putting the salient terms into google, then posting the YouTube video which matched the search terms.... still without even attempting to address the question*.


* The question, incidentally, whose (correct) answer would have shown you how ill-informed you were about the principles behind capsizing and sinking of a ship.
One wonders how well informed you are if you genuinely believe a boat doesn't turtle when it capsizes ceteris paribus rather than immediately sink. Time to get those bath toys out again. Let us know how you get on!

Have to laugh heartily at your earlier answer, 'Oh, but a boat's got buoyancy in its hull so that doesn't count...'

Or maybe..."What if we get buckets of water and try to sink it that way...or try piling on 40K tonnes of iron ore.'

It's the way he tells'em.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:03 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Are you saying that if the hole is above the waterline, turtling is inevitable, but if it's below the waterline, the boat will sink without turtling?

If so, then we can conclude the only way Estonia could have sunk is by a hole under the waterline. All this nonsense about blowing the visor off, pushing vehicles out the stern or bow, etc., is irrelevant. There has to be a large hole under the waterline, sufficient to let it enough water so that she would sink within an hour or so. That can't be too hard to find, right?
To have sunk within half an hour, then the massive hole in the starboard does explain it.

The MS Jan Heweliusz another ro-ro car ferry suffered no such affliction and floated turtle for about five days.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:12 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Time to get those bath toys out again.
What was the answer you were given the last time you suggested bath toys?
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:14 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To have sunk within half an hour, then the massive hole in the starboard does explain it.
Except that it's clearly above the water line. Can you tell me the flood rate that would be required to sink Estonia in half an hour and whether such a hole -- even if it were below the waterline -- is compatible with that flood rate?

C'mon, let's get those five years' worth of physics education going.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:17 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
What was the answer you were given the last time you suggested bath toys?
Something about them cheating because they had built in buoyancy.

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Old 19th October 2021, 02:19 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Something about them cheating because they had built in buoyancy.

That's part of it. What else?
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:30 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I don't even know her position any more - other than that it's fundamentally based upon a dogged refusal to believe that the official report might have been broadly correct.

Frankly, by this point I'm frustrated that this thread has descended into a low-quality farce (perhaps not quite as bad as "The Play that went Wrong", but fairly close behind). If there ever was any incremental learning that could be had over the cause of the sinking, it's long-since been subsumed by The Vixen Show (the participation in which has got us precisely.... nowhere).
Among the most curious bits of her deep understanding of nautical stuff is the following:

(1) If the bow visor had fallen off, the ship wouldn't have sunk without turtling.

(2) Ships sink only after collisions, explosions or other sources of holes in the hull.

(3) If the bow visor had been blown off (rather than fallen off due to ripples in the water), then the Estonia would have sunk and not turtled.

Source: Archimedes.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:37 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To have sunk within half an hour, then the massive hole in the starboard does explain it.

The MS Jan Heweliusz another ro-ro car ferry suffered no such affliction and floated turtle for about five days.
So, the "massive hole" in the starboard (which others have said is largely above the waterline) could have sunk the Estonia.

But the much larger hole formed when the bow visor fails couldn't have sunk the Estonia even in conditions with 6m waves[1].

I wonder how much water that "massive hole" would let in. What would the expected rate of flow be, even assuming that the thing was entirely below the waterline? How many gallons of water would be required before Estonia finally sinks due to the ingress of water from that massive hole? (Here, I'm assuming, contrary to evidence, that the hole was there prior to sinking and was below the waterline.)

Obviously, this is an open question to anyone who can give a back of the envelope estimation. It seems to me that the massive hole is a bit small to explain such a reasonably fast sinking, but, like Vixen, I'm just going with my gut. I'd be interested in whether I'm wrong.

[1] From memory, someone can correct me if I exaggerate the wave height.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:38 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Except that it's clearly above the water line. Can you tell me the flood rate that would be required to sink Estonia in half an hour and whether such a hole -- even if it were below the waterline -- is compatible with that flood rate?

C'mon, let's get those five years' worth of physics education going.
I hadn't read this when I posted my query above.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Vixen won't answer your question. So, if you have the answer, I'd be interested in seeing it.
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:48 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One wonders how well informed you are if you genuinely believe a boat doesn't turtle when it capsizes ceteris paribus rather than immediately sink. Time to get those bath toys out again. Let us know how you get on!

Have to laugh heartily at your earlier answer, 'Oh, but a boat's got buoyancy in its hull so that doesn't count...'

Or maybe..."What if we get buckets of water and try to sink it that way...or try piling on 40K tonnes of iron ore.'

It's the way he tells'em.

I really have very little idea what you're on about here. The one thing I do know is that you've been misrepresenting me left, right and centre.

Oh no, I do know one other thing: almost all boats/ships that capsize through 90 degrees.... sink to the bottom at or near this angle. They do not "turn turtle", as you bafflingly still assert.

Ah, wait, I think I've deciphered a little bit of it! Are you here referring (albeit incorrectly and dishonestly) to the discussion about racing dinghies and similar boats that have sealed buoyancy chambers built into them? Because if you are, then the clue is in the word "sealed". By contrast, a ship's hull is not sealed. Therein lies the huge difference.

(And isn't it time to retire this tedious - and wholly-unnecessary - Latin terms such as ceteris paribus? You haven't even used it properly in the above instance.)
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Old 19th October 2021, 02:59 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One wonders how well informed you are if you genuinely believe a boat doesn't turtle when it capsizes ceteris paribus rather than immediately sink. Time to get those bath toys out again. Let us know how you get on!

Have to laugh heartily at your earlier answer, 'Oh, but a boat's got buoyancy in its hull so that doesn't count...'

Or maybe..."What if we get buckets of water and try to sink it that way...or try piling on 40K tonnes of iron ore.'

It's the way he tells'em.
Ships are not 'bath toys'.

Ships very rarely 'turn turtle' before they sink. Those few that do rarely float for any length of time.

On average two ships a week sink, the vast majority remain the right way up or turn on to their beam ends, not completely upside down.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 19th October 2021 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 19th October 2021, 03:03 PM   #197
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Oh hang on: I've figured out another bit of it!

It's where you (Vixen) make a mocking reference to "40K tonnes of iron ore".

But you see, Vixen, that example was used by me in order to shoot down one particular component of your bad-science/no-science theory: that the displacement of air in the hull plays a critical role in determining whether the ship sinks or not.

Perhaps I might illustrate this to you even more vividly by proposing that I have managed to get hold of some material from the heart of a neutron star, which is (if I remember correctly) something like 1014 kg/m3 in density.

So imagine if I got just one cubic centimetre of this substance, and I placed it onto a lower deck of (eg) the Queen Mary II. This cubic centimetre would, obviously, displace purely one cubic centimetre of air from the hull. Right?

But that one cubic centimetre would have a mass of something like 100 billion kilograms. I think even you could see that this 1cc - while only displacing the tiniest amount of 1cc of air in the hull - would (just possibly) cause the ship to sink.....
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Old 19th October 2021, 03:05 PM   #198
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Bulk Carriers regularly carry hundreds of thousands of tons of iron ore.
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Old 19th October 2021, 03:07 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I really have very little idea what you're on about here. The one thing I do know is that you've been misrepresenting me left, right and centre.

Oh no, I do know one other thing: almost all boats/ships that capsize through 90 degrees.... sink to the bottom at or near this angle. They do not "turn turtle", as you bafflingly still assert.

Ah, wait, I think I've deciphered a little bit of it! Are you here referring (albeit incorrectly and dishonestly) to the discussion about racing dinghies and similar boats that have sealed buoyancy chambers built into them? Because if you are, then the clue is in the word "sealed". By contrast, a ship's hull is not sealed. Therein lies the huge difference.

(And isn't it time to retire this tedious - and wholly-unnecessary - Latin terms such as ceteris paribus? You haven't even used it properly in the above instance.)
I actually came here to say I just googled "turtling" after seeing Vixen use the term for about the 100th time, I had never even heard the term before. I thought she had meant it as saying a ship fully capsizing (180 degrees) rather than partially capsizing, but it seems she means it as the ship just stays fully capsized for some arbitrary amount of time.... maybe

Anyways it seems to be a term used in sailing dinghy's which are designed to continuously float upside down, since they have a built in airtight compartment with enough buoyancy to keep them afloat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtling_(sailing)
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Old 19th October 2021, 03:18 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I actually came here to say I just googled "turtling" after seeing Vixen use the term for about the 100th time, I had never even heard the term before. I thought she had meant it as saying a ship fully capsizing (180 degrees) rather than partially capsizing, but it seems she means it as the ship just stays fully capsized for some arbitrary amount of time.... maybe
That's the only explanation that I can see, given that Vixen has been shown video of an actual sinking (beneath the waves, not grounding) of a largish ship that never passes a 90 degree capsize. I think she misunderstands the idea of 'turning turtle', taking it to mean sinking while leaning over at a significant angle?

It's hard to tell what she thinks any more.
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