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Old 19th November 2021, 06:02 AM   #1
Crazy Chainsaw
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What would be the Impact of Conciseness in a computer

I have been working on a prototype design Idea it's not workable right now, we don't have the technology to reduce the power usage and heat issues, but would a concise non binary computer be useful?
Could it solve the problem of off world manufacturing?
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:40 AM   #2
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Could you give some background? I’ve never heard the term before.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:46 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Could you give some background? I’ve never heard the term before.
A computer that does information transfer without Logic Circuits.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:55 AM   #4
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Can you give any useful background?
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:57 AM   #5
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So... Not so much a computer as a carrier pigeon. No, I don' think carrier pigeons will solve the problem of off-world manufacturing. For that kind of thing, you'll probably need replicants. Your biggest problem won't be heat and power, but rather their spark of humanity.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Can you give any useful background?
I'm pretty sure this is the useful background.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:25 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Can you give any useful background?
Using wave cancelation between Light waves to do information transfer and Comparison, picked up by charged areas on multiple graphine sheets.
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:27 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Using wave cancelation between Light waves to do information transfer and Comparison, picked up by charged areas on multiple graphine sheets.
Sounds like it would be a lot of fun. I say you should go for it!
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Old 19th November 2021, 08:52 AM   #9
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Did you mean to type "conscious" instead of "concise"?

P.S.: The random capitalization really Helps to add Clarity to your idea.

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Old 19th November 2021, 09:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Using wave cancelation between Light waves to do information transfer and Comparison, picked up by charged areas on multiple graphine sheets.
That sounds an awful lot like logic circuits to me.
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Old 19th November 2021, 10:08 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That sounds an awful lot like logic circuits to me.
Curious. This is the definition I would use.

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A combinational logic circuit performs an operation assigned logically by a Boolean expression or truth table. Examples of common combinational logic circuits include: half adders, full adders, multiplexers, demultiplexers, encoders and decoders
Not a trace of graphine.
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Old 19th November 2021, 10:26 AM   #12
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That definition also doesn't mention silicon.
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Old 19th November 2021, 11:01 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Curious. This is the definition I would use.



Not a trace of graphine.
My prediction is that if CC's idea were developed to practicality, it would amount to a (re)invention of logic circuits implemented in light wave cancellation patterns rather than transistorized logic gates. Assuming practicality is even a plausible end state for this proposal.
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Old 19th November 2021, 01:17 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My prediction is that if CC's idea were developed to practicality, it would amount to a (re)invention of logic circuits implemented in light wave cancellation patterns rather than transistorized logic gates. Assuming practicality is even a plausible end state for this proposal.
Here is an example of binary logic without logic circuits

Many, many years ago (BC - before computers) I used to maintain a flight simulation device called a "Link Trainer". It used a number of curious, electro-mechanical devices to transfer electrical information from the trainer's flight capsule to the plotting table. This included such things as a device that had independently rotating cams on a shaft which operated microswitches that encoded a sequence of "on/off" conditions down a pair of wires to a similar device which would decode the train of "on/off" conditions onto a series of motors that would drive such things as the duplicate set of flight instruments so the instructor could see what the "blind flying" student was seeing. This was in effect an electro-mechanical multiplexer, a parallel-series-parallel converter system. It allowed the information to drive several instruments such as the radio direction finder, airspeed, altitude, turn & slip, rate of climb, artificial horizon and gyrocompass to all be sent down just two wires.

This was made necessary because the flight capsule rotated, so all the electrical information needed to be transferred out through a set of slip rings. These were limited in number by physical constraints, so ways had to be found to get as much information out using as few lines as possible.
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Old 19th November 2021, 02:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My prediction is that if CC's idea were developed to practicality, ...
Well the description so far is vague and somewhat incoherent so I doubt there is any chance of that ever happening.
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Old 19th November 2021, 03:11 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here is an example of binary logic without logic circuits

Many, many years ago (BC - before computers) I used to maintain a flight simulation device called a "Link Trainer". It used a number of curious, electro-mechanical devices to transfer electrical information from the trainer's flight capsule to the plotting table. This included such things as a device that had independently rotating cams on a shaft which operated microswitches that encoded a sequence of "on/off" conditions down a pair of wires to a similar device which would decode the train of "on/off" conditions onto a series of motors that would drive such things as the duplicate set of flight instruments so the instructor could see what the "blind flying" student was seeing. This was in effect an electro-mechanical multiplexer, a parallel-series-parallel converter system. It allowed the information to drive several instruments such as the radio direction finder, airspeed, altitude, turn & slip, rate of climb, artificial horizon and gyrocompass to all be sent down just two wires.

This was made necessary because the flight capsule rotated, so all the electrical information needed to be transferred out through a set of slip rings. These were limited in number by physical constraints, so ways had to be found to get as much information out using as few lines as possible.
I would call that a logic circuit implemented in something other than transistorized logic gates.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:25 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Well the description so far is vague and somewhat incoherent so I doubt there is any chance of that ever happening.
The simplest way to describe it would be a Multi charges Photo Resister that manipulated multiple charge paths on multiple planes to produce wave based transfer systems with out resulting to binary encoding.
Of course if you wanted to send a signal from device to device you would have to rely on a series of digital pulses. In theory the devices can be built from nanotubes grafted to plates or Graphine although we currently do not have the Technology to do that at this time.
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Old 19th November 2021, 07:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here is an example of binary logic without logic circuits

Many, many years ago (BC - before computers) I used to maintain a flight simulation device called a "Link Trainer". It used a number of curious, electro-mechanical devices to transfer electrical information from the trainer's flight capsule to the plotting table. This included such things as a device that had independently rotating cams on a shaft which operated microswitches that encoded a sequence of "on/off" conditions down a pair of wires to a similar device which would decode the train of "on/off" conditions onto a series of motors that would drive such things as the duplicate set of flight instruments so the instructor could see what the "blind flying" student was seeing. This was in effect an electro-mechanical multiplexer, a parallel-series-parallel converter system. It allowed the information to drive several instruments such as the radio direction finder, airspeed, altitude, turn & slip, rate of climb, artificial horizon and gyrocompass to all be sent down just two wires.

This was made necessary because the flight capsule rotated, so all the electrical information needed to be transferred out through a set of slip rings. These were limited in number by physical constraints, so ways had to be found to get as much information out using as few lines as possible.
Ah your Refering to a Mechanical transfer relay simular to the ones in fire Comand Computers in World War 2 Battle ships like the Missouri.
Those are very interesting devices.
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Old 20th November 2021, 04:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Ah your Refering to a Mechanical transfer relay simular to the ones in fire Comand Computers in World War 2 Battle ships like the Missouri.
Those are very interesting devices.
Yep. In the case of these devices, you can literally take the covers off and watch (and listen to) the multiplexing happening in real time.

You can hear the clicking of the microswitches on the transmitters in the flight capsule, and watch the instrument needles incrementally ticking up and down in time with the clicking.

ETA: Here is an example of one, its called a "Keyer"



Its the long bar thing half way up on the right side
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Old 20th November 2021, 11:20 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here is an example of binary logic without logic circuits

Many, many years ago (BC - before computers) I used to maintain a flight simulation device called a "Link Trainer". It used a number of curious, electro-mechanical devices to transfer electrical information from the trainer's flight capsule to the plotting table. This included such things as a device that had independently rotating cams on a shaft which operated microswitches that encoded a sequence of "on/off" conditions down a pair of wires to a similar device which would decode the train of "on/off" conditions onto a series of motors that would drive such things as the duplicate set of flight instruments so the instructor could see what the "blind flying" student was seeing. This was in effect an electro-mechanical multiplexer, a parallel-series-parallel converter system. It allowed the information to drive several instruments such as the radio direction finder, airspeed, altitude, turn & slip, rate of climb, artificial horizon and gyrocompass to all be sent down just two wires.

This was made necessary because the flight capsule rotated, so all the electrical information needed to be transferred out through a set of slip rings. These were limited in number by physical constraints, so ways had to be found to get as much information out using as few lines as possible.
Twenty years ago I worked in the avionics field, which was still transitioning from analogue to digital. The old hands remembered such tech well.
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Old 20th November 2021, 12:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
The simplest way to describe it would be a Multi charges Photo Resister that manipulated multiple charge paths on multiple planes to produce wave based transfer systems with out resulting to binary encoding.
Sounds like analog encoding with extra steps.

Also, how hard is it to just say, "this could be a more efficient way to encode information in an analog format" and "this could have practical applications for transmitting large amounts of information over very long distances"?

But how would it solve "the problem of off-world manufacturing"? What even is the problem of off-world manufacturing?
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Old 20th November 2021, 01:02 PM   #22
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If you want mechanical digital machines, nothing beats a telephone crossbar switching exchange.

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I AGREE


The one in the video seems to be running at a low call volume. My memories of being inside one running at full capacity was that it was a much noisier place.
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Old 20th November 2021, 07:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sounds like analog encoding with extra steps.

Also, how hard is it to just say, "this could be a more efficient way to encode information in an analog format" and "this could have practical applications for transmitting large amounts of information over very long distances"?

But how would it solve "the problem of off-world manufacturing"? What even is the problem of off-world manufacturing?
Because the device would actually make decisions based on pre-planned models stored in its memory without resorting to binary incoding, it would be a great way to Automate Off planet Manufacturing.
Just give it a model of the universe for instinctual comparison, step back and allow it to do the work.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 01:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
If you want mechanical digital machines, nothing beats a telephone crossbar switching exchange.

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I AGREE


The one in the video seems to be running at a low call volume. My memories of being inside one running at full capacity was that it was a much noisier place.
Meh, still just electrical. Try purely mechanical switching with logic:

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(mechanical logic gates start at about 0:50)
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Old 22nd November 2021, 01:10 PM   #25
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How about plastic drinking straws?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digi-Comp_I
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Old 22nd November 2021, 01:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Because the device would actually make decisions based on pre-planned models stored in its memory without resorting to binary incoding, it would be a great way to Automate Off planet Manufacturing.
I'm still at a loss as to what sort of device you're talking about. Also, why would this device be any better than a conventional computer (I assume that's what you mean when you refer to binary encoding), given that Turing showed that any Turing-complete computer can execute any computer program?
Quote:
Just give it a model of the universe for instinctual comparison, step back and allow it to do the work.
Just? Good luck with that.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 01:56 PM   #27
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I'm assuming it's a massively word salad way of talking about quantum computing, but it could also be a recipe for potato salad it's so much gibberish in the spaces.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Because the device would actually make decisions based on pre-planned models stored in its memory without resorting to binary incoding, it would be a great way to Automate Off planet Manufacturing.
Just give it a model of the universe for instinctual comparison, step back and allow it to do the work.
This seems like a better fit for Religion and Philosophy.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm assuming it's a massively word salad way of talking about quantum computing, but it could also be a recipe for potato salad it's so much gibberish in the spaces.
A quantum Computer is Just a Copulational device that uses entangled Qbits to do calculations, it still can't achieve a self recognizing Conciseness.
I have decided to abandon the Idea after exploring a prototype, it's just not something humanity needs right now.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:22 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Using wave cancelation between Light waves to do information transfer and Comparison, picked up by charged areas on multiple graphine sheets.
I know how wave cancelation works with sound, but hadn't ever seen it associated with light waves. Interesting, but I don't see how that would be more concise than 0s and 1s, or have anything to do with computing off the planet Earth, though?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:22 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like a better fit for Religion and Philosophy.
I thought religion destroys planets it doesn't try to save them.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:24 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
A quantum Computer is Just a Copulational device that uses entangled Qbits to do calculations, it still can't achieve a self recognizing Conciseness.
I have decided to abandon the Idea after exploring a prototype, it's just not something humanity needs right now.
No, but tell us more about these quantum copulational devices. It sounds like they could revolutionize the field of teledildonics.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I know how wave cancelation works with sound, but hadn't ever seen it associated with light waves. Interesting, but I don't see how that would be more concise than 0s and 1s, or have anything to do with computing off the planet Earth, though?
"So it looks like for a complete build-out, we'll need to provision approx. 17 petabytes of storage space for all the necessary STCs."

"17 petabytes? That seems unnecessarily verbose. I have a more concise proposal: Just load the fab with a complete model of the universe, and let it figure things out from there."
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"So it looks like for a complete build-out, we'll need to provision approx. 17 petabytes of storage space for all the necessary STCs."

"17 petabytes? That seems unnecessarily verbose. I have a more concise proposal: Just load the fab with a complete model of the universe, and let it figure things out from there."
Each intelligent person on the planet has a model of the universe contained with in his own mind, most are highly flawed, mine included in that but we seem to do OK with them.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"So it looks like for a complete build-out, we'll need to provision approx. 17 petabytes of storage space for all the necessary STCs."

"17 petabytes? That seems unnecessarily verbose. I have a more concise proposal: Just load the fab with a complete model of the universe, and let it figure things out from there."
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I know how wave cancelation works with sound, but hadn't ever seen it associated with light waves. Interesting, but I don't see how that would be more concise than 0s and 1s, or have anything to do with computing off the planet Earth, though?
It should be possible to do direct cancelation of any light or other waves, James Clark Maxwell's work points to this, if so direct comparison of charge sets should be able to be done without resorting to Logic Circuits and Bionary encoding.
You would be doing direct set to set comparisons to ascertain the change in charge location and extrapolate from that a preprogrammed instinctual response.
No easy to do and very energy unfriendly, but in theory it is possible.

Last edited by Crazy Chainsaw; 22nd November 2021 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:51 PM   #36
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Each intelligent person on the planet has a model of the universe contained with in his own mind, most are highly flawed, mine included in that but we seem to do OK with them.
We definitely do not seem to be doing okay with our highly flawed internal model of the universe.

We do, however, have a solid premise for a Sci Fi horror movie: Insane scientists accidentally on purpose program their insanity into an AI precursor. Instead of preparing an off world paradise for our protagonists, it prepares an off world hell.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"So it looks like for a complete build-out, we'll need to provision approx. 17 petabytes of storage space for all the necessary STCs."

"17 petabytes? That seems unnecessarily verbose. I have a more concise proposal: Just load the fab with a complete model of the universe, and let it figure things out from there."
It's not that some aren't trying.

Astrophysicists Reveal Largest-Ever Suite of Universe Simulations – How Gravity Shaped the Distribution of Dark Matter

https://scitechdaily.com/astrophysic...f-dark-matter/

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AbacusSummit is the product of researchers at the Flatiron Institute’s Center for Computational Astrophysics (CCA) in New York City and the Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian. Made up of more than 160 simulations, it models how particles in the universe move about due to their gravitational attraction. Such models, known as N-body simulations, capture the behavior of the dark matter, a mysterious and invisible force that makes up 27 percent of the universe and interacts only via gravity.
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:50 AM   #38
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We definitely do not seem to be doing okay with our highly flawed internal model of the universe.

We do, however, have a solid premise for a Sci Fi horror movie: Insane scientists accidentally on purpose program their insanity into an AI precursor. Instead of preparing an off world paradise for our protagonists, it prepares an off world hell.
Or I could just do the concept art, from the patent Drawings, and send it into Hasbro and they could use it in the next transformer movies and sell some New Killer Toys.
Just kidding on the Transformers thing those movies were kind of 🧠 dead.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:38 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
A quantum Computer is Just a Copulational device that uses entangled Qbits to do calculations, it still can't achieve a self recognizing Conciseness.
Do you mean 'consciousness'?
Quote:
I have decided to abandon the Idea after exploring a prototype, it's just not something humanity needs right now.
Humanity's loss.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:19 AM   #40
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I swear to god I thought he meant concise. Jesus. (like - a wave could be continuous and not require all the digits of binary or something)

I googled STCs and that didn't help either.

Last edited by carlitos; 24th November 2021 at 09:20 AM.
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