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Old 29th July 2020, 03:23 PM   #41
Sherkeu
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

Your assertion about acts not committed against a person directly is a whole different discussion. I'd prefer not to conflate them.

P.S. this whole tangent probably more properly belongs in the looting/rioting thread, oh well :9
Even if i see the crime on video from a distance, it is violent.
Even if I am only given evidence of how it happened, it can still be violent.

2 storms can cause the same damages. No one needs to be present to describe it.

You'll know it when you see the effects of the 'violent' one. That is likely the one you'd most want to avoid, no matter the cost of damage. It has force and often rage.

I find your arguments on the pendantic side. Maybe to a robot they make sense. Some people are a bit more robotic- as in spock-like logical , and I am for diversity so I will just agree to disagree. It's a matter of a human's inner voice of what is much more scary and fearful about another humans innately dangerous actions.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 29th July 2020 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 03:38 PM   #42
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"You're trespassing. Please leave."

"You'll have to use force to make me leave."

"Have it your way."

"See? The cops started the violence!" As he forcefully resists the efforts to remove him from the property.

Last edited by theprestige; 29th July 2020 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:55 PM   #43
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So, when stores got looted in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina was that violence?
Yes.

Is violence always wrong?

No.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:23 PM   #44
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yes.

Is violence always wrong?

No.
I'm glad that we agree that it wasn't wrong. But I don't consider it violence.

But this is an argument over definitions and I hate those. I shouldn't have allowed myself to go down this road. I was thinking in terms of legality and not colloquially.

IMV crimes that involve bodily harm are more serious than property crimes even though I concede that crimes against someone's property can be almost as damaging.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:24 PM   #45
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm glad that we agree that it wasn't wrong. But I don't consider it violence.



But this is an argument over definitions and I hate those. I shouldn't have allowed myself to go down this road. I was thinking in terms of legality and not colloquially.
Entirely fair.



Quote:
IMV crimes that involve bodily harm are more serious than property crimes even though I concede that crimes against someone's property can be almost as damaging.
I agree with the different classes and scale of offense there, absolutely.

There's been a good deal of internal conflict in progressive direct action movements when trying to resolve both the "does this moment call for violence" question at the same time as "what is violence" one is. Like trying to hit a moving target. This leads to a number of misunderstandings and resentments.

That and it is naturally harder to get good social media exposure for the "let's smash up Broadway Blvd" Facebook event for obvious reasons.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:43 PM   #46
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

There's been a good deal of internal conflict in progressive direct action movements when trying to resolve both the "does this moment call for violence" question at the same time as "what is violence" one is. Like trying to hit a moving target. This leads to a number of misunderstandings and resentments.

That and it is naturally harder to get good social media exposure for the "let's smash up Broadway Blvd" Facebook event for obvious reasons.
I don't agree with anyone who smashes windows or defaces buildings as a political strategy. It more often than not backfires. There are better ways to get attention which is ultimately the goal of successful protests.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't agree with anyone who smashes windows or defaces buildings as a political strategy. It more often than not backfires. There are better ways to get attention which is ultimately the goal of successful protests.
I tend to agree, but that isn't really the point of the thread.

The point was that one party is primarily doing property damage.

Another party is often engaging in physical acts intended to harm people.

Why do we call both violent? In my mind the acts against people or animals are violent while the acts against buildings, while still wrong, are not violent.

If I break into an unoccupied home it is crime. If I break into an occupied home, it is a greater crime. We use different words to describe these actions even though they are both wrong and are both crimes.

The use of the word violent to blur the line between acts against property and against people is intentional by some and is having the intended effect: The protestors are just as bad as the police who are beating the **** out of them for standing in the wrong place. Both are violent.

I have a problem with that.
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Old 30th July 2020, 12:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I tend to agree, but that isn't really the point of the thread.

The point was that one party is primarily doing property damage.

Another party is often engaging in physical acts intended to harm people.

Why do we call both violent? In my mind the acts against people or animals are violent while the acts against buildings, while still wrong, are not violent.

If I break into an unoccupied home it is crime. If I break into an occupied home, it is a greater crime. We use different words to describe these actions even though they are both wrong and are both crimes.

The use of the word violent to blur the line between acts against property and against people is intentional by some and is having the intended effect: The protestors are just as bad as the police who are beating the **** out of them for standing in the wrong place. Both are violent.

I have a problem with that.
I couldn't agree with this more. It's quite clear that there are apologists for the police brutality who are using this broad definition of "violence" to try to create a false parity between protesters breaking windows and cops that are hospitalizing people. They can call both "violence" and not go any further to distinguish the clear differences in activity that is happening at these demonstrations.

There is no comparison. The overwhelming violence against human beings is coming from the cops.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:01 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I couldn't agree with this more. It's quite clear that there are apologists for the police brutality who are using this broad definition of "violence" to try to create a false parity between protesters breaking windows and cops that are hospitalizing people. They can call both "violence" and not go any further to distinguish the clear differences in activity that is happening at these demonstrations.

There is no comparison. The overwhelming violence against human beings is coming from the cops.
I want to note that I am not accusing anyone in that thread of having that same motive. I'm just pointing it out as a tactic of the DOJ and their supporters that is easy to miss and even fall into using ourselves.

There is a difference.
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:38 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I like how no matter how many times I ask for the difference to be described, it isnt explained.
It was explained multiple times. It is not my problem that you do not like these explanations and want to handwave them away.
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