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Old 1st August 2020, 03:04 AM   #1
angrysoba
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What the **** is Wrong with American Cops?

Quote:
As he begged police to stop using a Taser on him on a supermarket’s floor, Lionel Morris’s cries echoed through the produce section of the store in Conway, Ark., for 6½ minutes.

Morris had run from officers on Feb. 4 and then placed one officer in a chokehold and tried to pulled out a knife, according to police, after the supermarket had reported him for removing a drone from its packaging. But as an officer had his knee on the 39-year-old’s back inside Harps Food Store, Morris, handcuffed and lying face down, repeatedly offered a succinct and familiar plea: “I can’t breathe.”

“If you can talk, you can breathe. Chill out,” replied the officer, according to body-cam footage released by the Conway Police Department on Wednesday. “We got an ambulance. "

Minutes later, Morris was “pulseless and unresponsive” when medical personnel arrived. He was pronounced dead while being transported to the hospital.
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Old 1st August 2020, 03:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
From another article:

"... Pulaski County court records show Morris was serving five years of probation for felony drug charges at the time of the Feb. 4 arrest. He had previously served jail time for burglary, contempt of court, fleeing, and multiple theft charges...."

As we know the police's primary responsibility is to remove "bad people".....
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:32 AM   #3
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^^ And I think that pervasive mentality is what allows Americans to brush off a fix.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:41 AM   #4
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Americans will always be there to stand up against injustices that are being directed toward the wrong targets.
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
What the **** is Wrong with American Cops?
Municipalities, police departments and police unions that will back them up no matter what they do. This gives them the "I can get away with anything" mentality.

This was what was so shocking about the death of George Floyd. Derek Chauvin stared right into a camera and essentially dared people to do something about it. He had that "I can get away with anything" look. This is what made this case different. A cop killed a man and his look told the public "**** you, I can get away with anything!"
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What the **** is Wrong with American Cops?
1) They are cops.
2) They are American.
Why are American cops so brutal? (Ruthless Criticism)
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
1) They are cops.
2) They are American.
Why are American cops so brutal? (Ruthless Criticism)
I have not followed the link. IMO American cops were brutal first, then they became cops so that they could be brutal legally.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I have not followed the link. IMO American cops were brutal first, then they became cops so that they could be brutal legally.

The people I knew who became cops immediately after high school were all high school bullies. Those who went to college first, whether or not they graduated, were generally not. Two of my friends became cops partly because it was easy for them to get a job anywhere at the time. One was 6'6 tall and the other 6'9, and departments liked to hire huge imposing guys. One had a criminal justice degree and the other dropped out of college. Both only lasted a few years in law enforcement.
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Old 1st August 2020, 09:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Quote:
Morris had run from officers on Feb. 4 and then placed one officer in a chokehold and tried to pulled out a knife
What's wrong with American cops? What's wrong with American criminals? Seriously, who doesn't know by now that this is a good way to get yourself killed?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/conway...in-supermarket
The medical examiner later concluded that Morris died of “methamphetamine intoxication with a combination of exertion, struggle, restraint and conducted electrical weapon deployment,” prosecuting attorney Carol Crews said in a letter about the investigation. The toxicology report added that Morris tested positive for meth, cannabinoids, opiates, morphine, and amphetamines and that he suffered "no life-threatening injuries."
Don't do meth, kids.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:06 PM   #10
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From a purely outside point of you looking at these things it seems a bit like they just have too much leeway confrontation wise and backing them after, when stuff like this happens.

Again as an outsider it is a struggle for me to understand how the people in power can't just tone them down a tad, with real punishments if they turn a bit agro with a badge

Guess it takes willingness.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:07 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What's wrong with American cops? What's wrong with American criminals? Seriously, who doesn't know by now that this is a good way to get yourself killed?



https://www.thedailybeast.com/conway...in-supermarket


The medical examiner later concluded that Morris died of “methamphetamine intoxication with a combination of exertion, struggle, restraint and conducted electrical weapon deployment,” prosecuting attorney Carol Crews said in a letter about the investigation. The toxicology report added that Morris tested positive for meth, cannabinoids, opiates, morphine, and amphetamines and that he suffered "no life-threatening injuries."


Don't do meth, kids.
Deserved it then?

Thanks for that
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What's wrong with American cops? What's wrong with American criminals? Seriously, who doesn't know by now that this is a good way to get yourself killed?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/conway...in-supermarket
The medical examiner later concluded that Morris died of “methamphetamine intoxication with a combination of exertion, struggle, restraint and conducted electrical weapon deployment,” prosecuting attorney Carol Crews said in a letter about the investigation. The toxicology report added that Morris tested positive for meth, cannabinoids, opiates, morphine, and amphetamines and that he suffered "no life-threatening injuries."
Don't do meth, kids.
Did you ever pause to wonder why no other nations cops have this problem?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 05:02 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Deserved it then?

Thanks for that
I said nothing about deserve. Someone who plays on train tracks doesn’t deserve to die for it. But it’s a rather foreseeable and avoidable consequence.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 05:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Did you ever pause to wonder why no other nations cops have this problem?
That’s... not even remotely true.

Our police aren’t particularly good, but you’re delusional if you think they’re the worst. We also have a pretty bad drug abuse problem, and that was a factor in this and many other police homicides.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:02 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That’s... not even remotely true.

Our police aren’t particularly good, but you’re delusional if you think they’re the worst. We also have a pretty bad drug abuse problem, and that was a factor in this and many other police homicides.
The drug laws and enforcement in the USA are more draconian than most other democracies (I assume that is what you would really like to see your country’s law enforcement compared to, and not, say, China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.) American police are quite zealous about arresting users for small possession of amounts of drugs for their own personal use. Due to the harshness of possession penalties in the USA ie; jail, there is likely a greater tendency for drug users to resist arrest by fleeing, fighting, etc. The result is quick escalation and a much greater chance of injury to one or more parties.

In Canada cannabis has been legal for nearly two years. There are no properly researched published reports of any noticeable changes in Canadian society due to legalization. Here simple hard drug possession and use is treated as a health issue rather than a crime. The users have no reason to fear interactions with the police so interactions between users and police rarely escalate beyond discussion.

The “drug abuse problem” and the consequences of escalation during police/user confrontations in the USA is much more due to your laws and enforcement methods than to any danger from the users themselves, or to other citizens from the users.

And yes, there is always a concern of petty crime by the drug users to get money to support their habits. Trying to use this as a reason to come down heavy on possession would be grasping at straws.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The drug laws and enforcement in the USA are more draconian than most other democracies (I assume that is what you would really like to see your country’s law enforcement compared to, and not, say, China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.)
The post I responded to WAS comparing the US to China, Saudi Arabia, etc. And yes, the war on drugs isn't working. But the police don't write the laws. They are tasked with enforcing the laws. Rewrite the laws, and policing will change.

Quote:
American police are quite zealous about arresting users for small possession of amounts of drugs for their own personal use. Due to the harshness of possession penalties in the USA ie; jail, there is likely a greater tendency for drug users to resist arrest by fleeing, fighting, etc. The result is quick escalation and a much greater chance of injury to one or more parties.
The guy in this story is dead largely because he used meth, but he didn't get in trouble with the police because meth use is a crime. He wasn't arrested because they found drugs on him. In fact, I've seen no reports at all that he had any drugs on him. We only know he was on meth because of the toxicology report done as part of his autopsy. There's a lot of room for improvement on drug policy, but it's naive to think that will fix everything. Some people still haven't seen or understood Chris Rock's How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The post I responded to WAS comparing the US to China, Saudi Arabia, etc. And yes, the war on drugs isn't working. But the police don't write the laws. They are tasked with enforcing the laws. Rewrite the laws, and policing will change.



The guy in this story is dead largely because he used meth, but he didn't get in trouble with the police because meth use is a crime. He wasn't arrested because they found drugs on him. In fact, I've seen no reports at all that he had any drugs on him. We only know he was on meth because of the toxicology report done as part of his autopsy. There's a lot of room for improvement on drug policy, but it's naive to think that will fix everything. Some people still haven't seen or understood Chris Rock's How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police
2 of the factors contributed to his death were choices but police. The probability that police will encounter a situation where this level of force will result in death is 1. Police level of force decisions cannot be evaluated based on individual event probability.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The post I responded to WAS comparing the US to China, Saudi Arabia, etc. And yes, the war on drugs isn't working. [But the police don't write the laws. They are tasked with enforcing the laws. Rewrite the laws, and policing will change.



The guy in this story is dead largely because he used meth, but he didn't get in trouble with the police because meth use is a crime. He wasn't arrested because they found drugs on him. In fact, I've seen no reports at all that he had any drugs on him. We only know he was on meth because of the toxicology report done as part of his autopsy. There's a lot of room for improvement on drug policy, but it's naive to think that will fix everything. Some people still haven't seen or understood Chris Rock's How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police
Reasonable points. No argument here except, re the hilight - As far as I know laws against possession are still on the books in Canada. A policy decision based on public input is what resulted in the changes in enforcement. Just because a law exists does not mean it needs to be enforced with zealous enthusiasm. Part of “What .... is wrong with American Cops” is the enthusiasm some (perhaps too many) have for arresting people.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
From another article:

"... Pulaski County court records show Morris was serving five years of probation for felony drug charges at the time of the Feb. 4 arrest. He had previously served jail time for burglary, contempt of court, fleeing, and multiple theft charges...."

As we know the police's primary responsibility is to remove "bad people".....
I'd be curious to know if any attempt was made to deal with his fairly obvious chemical dependency issues. It seems to me that this person needed multiple interventions but the only ones he got were from the police. He might not have ever been in this situation if we'd stop only using the police to fix the medical condition of addiction.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 01:14 PM   #20
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Our most popular superhero is a bazillionaire who has the means to address the etiology of crime in his city but instead spends untold billions on machines he can use to punch crime in the face.

I assume Canada has dorkwad superheros like De-escalation Man. Boooo, boring. Once in the 90s I was channel surfing and found a show called Mounties: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It was an obvious Cops knock-off, but it was like cops showing up at people houses and being polite about their unlicensed firearms, then fifteen minute dressage interludes.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 01:31 PM   #21
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A considerably large privatized prison system that probably pays "finder's fees" is also to blame for "overzealous" drug law enforcement.

or

When many PDs find themselves short on the annual budget they just arrest more people to get more money from the state.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 02:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Our most popular superhero is a bazillionaire who has the means to address the etiology of crime in his city but instead spends untold billions on machines he can use to punch crime in the face.

I assume Canada has dorkwad superheros like De-escalation Man. Boooo, boring. Once in the 90s I was channel surfing and found a show called Mounties: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It was an obvious Cops knock-off, but it was like cops showing up at people houses and being polite about their unlicensed firearms, then fifteen minute dressage interludes.
One of the hosts of that show - Cst Janice Armstrong - went on to be Deputy Commissioner Janice Armstrong. Her position was the highest non-political appointment in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and she was essentially in charge of the day-to-day activities of Canada's Federal Police Force. She retired into a 7 figure job in the private sector even though she was offered the position of Commissioner.

I worked with Janice at the beginning of her career and even then she demonstrated the essential attitudes (patience and the ability to exercise discretion) and abilities (connect and communicate with people from all walks of life, mental and physical toughness, intelligence, exceptional memory) of a great cop.
Myself and many of my colleagues agreed that she would one day wind up running the whole show and we were right.

Her attitudes and values reflected what I believe are the essential core of the RCMP and that is the difference between how the US and Canada police their countries.

https://www.rcmpgraves.com/forcefirsts/armstrong.html
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Old 4th August 2020, 12:29 AM   #23
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Aurora, Colorado police pulled over a minivan, ordering a woman - the driver - and four children, ages 6 to 17, out of the vehicle and face-down onto the street at gunpoint. At least two of the children were handcuffed. It turned out the minivan's license plate number matched the plate number of a reported stolen vehicle, except the reportedly-stolen vehicle was actually a motorcycle from out-of-state. Police say the mistake may have happened because the minivan itself actually had been reported stolen at the beginning of the year, although in that incident the minivan was recovered and returned to the family within a day. For having been the victims of an auto theft, this family got to be terrorized at gunpoint by the police half a year later.
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Old 4th August 2020, 02:01 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Did you ever pause to wonder why no other nations cops have this problem?
Nope. Few USAians of the "conservative" persuasion are open to the idea that any other country is superior to the USA, in any way.
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Old 4th August 2020, 02:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What's wrong with American cops? What's wrong with American criminals? Seriously, who doesn't know by now that this is a good way to get yourself killed?
Yeah, seriously, do NOT reach for your wallet.
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Old 4th August 2020, 03:55 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, seriously, do NOT reach for your wallet.
Even when the cop tells you to.
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Old 4th August 2020, 05:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Aurora, Colorado police pulled over a minivan, ordering a woman - the driver - and four children, ages 6 to 17, out of the vehicle and face-down onto the street at gunpoint. At least two of the children were handcuffed. It turned out the minivan's license plate number matched the plate number of a reported stolen vehicle, except the reportedly-stolen vehicle was actually a motorcycle from out-of-state. Police say the mistake may have happened because the minivan itself actually had been reported stolen at the beginning of the year, although in that incident the minivan was recovered and returned to the family within a day. For having been the victims of an auto theft, this family got to be terrorized at gunpoint by the police half a year later.
Hmm maybe the police need more training in the difference between motorcycles and minivans, this is something they clearly find confusing.
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Old 4th August 2020, 06:04 AM   #28
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Examples like this are more instructive of the mundane brutality inherent in American policing.

Examples like Chauvin murdering George Floyd are the extreme examples. Even most pigs and bootlickers watched that video and acknowledged that Chauvin went too far in his sadism.

These other examples, be it snuffing out a tweaking shoplifter or dragging a family out onto the concrete over a false "stolen minivan" hit show the real face of American policing. The cops won't even admit that anything wrong happened here. Nothing these cops did was inconsistent with their training or the culture of modern American policing. Under similar circumstances they'd do things exactly the same way.

American cops are meant to be unyielding authorities backed by threat of overwhelming violence. Sometimes it has bad outcomes, but that's not something that any of these departments think should change. The public must continue to bear the risk of these unrestrained tactics, because expecting more of our police is out of the question.
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Old 4th August 2020, 07:01 AM   #29
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In my opinion, the problem with policing in America can be reduced to a few broad things:

1. Police wildly overestimate the amount of danger they're in. Yes, they are in a front-facing profession and yes, any encounter can turn deadly for them. However, from 1980 to 1998, the FBI estimates about 64 felonious police deaths a year for a national police force of 80,000. The stress of being constantly alert for danger is taking untold effects on their collective psyche in ways that are not good for their interactions with suspected lawbreakers.

2. Since at least the Clinton administration, there has been an insane push to militarize our police. This includes selling directly to states and municipalities an entire arsenal from assault vehicles to heavy weapons to armor. It includes training centers around the US for police to learn military-style breaching, containment, and other tactical skills. It includes the rise of SWAT teams (most of whose time is spent collecting parole violators). Police are trained and then equipped to deal with an "enemy" and not their own public.

3. The lack of mental health and child safety workers put police in the position to deal with issues for which they are untrained and unprepared. There is a way to contain an outburst by an adult with autism. There is a way to confront a disrespectful child in a classroom. Neither requires body slamming them.

3. Systemic racism in employment, housing, and schooling has led to a disproportionate percentage of people of color living in poverty, living close together in apartments or tenements, getting sick more often, and having a greater percentage of unemployed teenagers. This greatly increases the opportunities and incentives for crime. Heck, it greatly increases opportunities for arguments, spousal abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, and just plain neighborly fights. If the disproportionate number of lawbreakers that police see are minorities, police (being humans) will associate being a minority with lawbreaking.

I speak of "police" in broad terms. I am sure that some police officers will never engage in inappropriate behaviors. I am sure that nearly all police officers want to be effective public servants and believe they are being such. I am sure that nearly all police officers go through nearly all of their days without using excessive or unwarranted violence. It is, in my opinion, a difficult and noble profession. I think that we, as a republic, have let them down.

The above problems are difficult but necessary to fix. Above all, we need a massive push to educate all students, to integrate low-income housing into higher-income areas, to train a new generation to succeed in the job market and to participate in the economy of the nation. This will take, if we start right now, about twenty-five years. We need to demilitarize the police and give them more nonlethal options. We need to spend the funds to create functioning juvenile justice, mental health, and addiction systems that can identify problem behaviors before they become criminals.

But that would be difficult and require thought and effort. So, basically it won't ever happen.
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Old 4th August 2020, 07:22 AM   #30
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4. Lack of acountability and feelings of invincibility.

5. War on drugs.
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Old 4th August 2020, 07:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
In my opinion, the problem with policing in America can be reduced to a few broad things:

1. Police wildly overestimate the amount of danger they're in. Yes, they are in a front-facing profession and yes, any encounter can turn deadly for them. However, from 1980 to 1998, the FBI estimates about 64 felonious police deaths a year for a national police force of 80,000. The stress of being constantly alert for danger is taking untold effects on their collective psyche in ways that are not good for their interactions with suspected lawbreakers.

2. Since at least the Clinton administration, there has been an insane push to militarize our police. This includes selling directly to states and municipalities an entire arsenal from assault vehicles to heavy weapons to armor. It includes training centers around the US for police to learn military-style breaching, containment, and other tactical skills. It includes the rise of SWAT teams (most of whose time is spent collecting parole violators). Police are trained and then equipped to deal with an "enemy" and not their own public.

3. The lack of mental health and child safety workers put police in the position to deal with issues for which they are untrained and unprepared. There is a way to contain an outburst by an adult with autism. There is a way to confront a disrespectful child in a classroom. Neither requires body slamming them.

3. Systemic racism in employment, housing, and schooling has led to a disproportionate percentage of people of color living in poverty, living close together in apartments or tenements, getting sick more often, and having a greater percentage of unemployed teenagers. This greatly increases the opportunities and incentives for crime. Heck, it greatly increases opportunities for arguments, spousal abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, and just plain neighborly fights. If the disproportionate number of lawbreakers that police see are minorities, police (being humans) will associate being a minority with lawbreaking.

I speak of "police" in broad terms. I am sure that some police officers will never engage in inappropriate behaviors. I am sure that nearly all police officers want to be effective public servants and believe they are being such. I am sure that nearly all police officers go through nearly all of their days without using excessive or unwarranted violence. It is, in my opinion, a difficult and noble profession. I think that we, as a republic, have let them down.

The above problems are difficult but necessary to fix. Above all, we need a massive push to educate all students, to integrate low-income housing into higher-income areas, to train a new generation to succeed in the job market and to participate in the economy of the nation. This will take, if we start right now, about twenty-five years. We need to demilitarize the police and give them more nonlethal options. We need to spend the funds to create functioning juvenile justice, mental health, and addiction systems that can identify problem behaviors before they become criminals.

But that would be difficult and require thought and effort. So, basically it won't ever happen.

I strongly agree with that. I think it is a bit backwards though, much easier to integrate high-income people into low-income neighborhoods (much less expensive all the way around)
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Old 4th August 2020, 10:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
4. Lack of acountability and feelings of invincibility.

Or perverse incentives, such as the New York's Compstat system (which rewarded arrests while penalizing precincts with too many felony ones).

I don't believe police feel invincible. I believe they feel overly vulnerable and that leads them to take an offensive pose rather than wait to have to defend themselves.


Quote:
5. War on drugs.

I would include this within the general umbrella of the current (and decades long) war on the poor/minorities.
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:11 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Did you ever pause to wonder why no other nations cops have this problem?
I love the logic that basically says, 'it's totally okay to have an out-of-control, paramilitary, massively overfunded, racist and xenophobic, unaccountable, excessively brutal, and poorly trained police force, because people can just choose not to do crime!'.

It's as if the people who say this believe themselves to be special snowflakes who'll never themselves fall victim to corrupt, over-reaching, or inept policemen themselves, because that's something that happens to black people and The Bad Guys. Nor, given their apathy towards the state of police departments and the justice system, do they ever expect to need the police or justice system themselves, for any reason. These bad things happen to Everyone Else.
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Old 4th August 2020, 11:17 AM   #34
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Also



It's originally about school shootings, but also relevant to this topic.
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Old 6th August 2020, 05:39 AM   #35
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LAPD responds to a call about a suicidal man by showing up, shooting his dog, and accidentally shooting each other.

https://twitter.com/LAPDHQ/status/1291180758963556354

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...e-15462780.php

Top notch work from mental health professionals.
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Old 6th August 2020, 05:51 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
LAPD responds to a call about a suicidal man by showing up, shooting his dog, and accidentally shooting each other.

https://twitter.com/LAPDHQ/status/1291180758963556354

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...e-15462780.php

Top notch work from mental health professionals.
They're certainly mental, not too sure about the health or professional parts.
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Old 6th August 2020, 05:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I love the logic that basically says, 'it's totally okay to have an out-of-control, paramilitary, massively overfunded, racist and xenophobic, unaccountable, excessively brutal, and poorly trained police force, because people can just choose not to do crime!'.

It's as if the people who say this believe themselves to be special snowflakes who'll never themselves fall victim to corrupt, over-reaching, or inept policemen themselves, because that's something that happens to black people and The Bad Guys. Nor, given their apathy towards the state of police departments and the justice system, do they ever expect to need the police or justice system themselves, for any reason. These bad things happen to Everyone Else.
Thats a whole lot of assuming going on
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Old 6th August 2020, 12:38 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
"I can't breathe" lol
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Old 6th August 2020, 02:06 PM   #39
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Choking. Being able to speak while a foreign object is lodged in your throat, means you can breathe. Saying you can't breathe, while someone is pressing on you, means you can breathe *out*. Sorta like how boa constrictors kill prey, once the air is breathed out to beg for your life, the pressure ensures that you can't breathe back in. That's how positional asphyxia works.
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Old 6th August 2020, 02:11 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Choking. Being able to speak while a foreign object is lodged in your throat, means you can breathe. Saying you can't breathe, while someone is pressing on you, means you can breathe *out*. Sorta like how boa constrictors kill prey, once the air is breathed out to beg for your life, the pressure ensures that you can't breathe back in. That's how positional asphyxia works.
Technically correct, but quite a number of civilians uttering the phrase did not survive the encounter.
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