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Old 11th April 2020, 07:31 AM   #121
Bob001
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
My wife and I own (and live in) a two-family house. About fifteen months ago our tenant announced she was moving. This was a woman my wife knew and there was no lease. Without telling us she moved her twenty-something daughter in. Her daughter was already occupying the apartment by the time we were notified. The daughter could be described as 'a chick with attitude,' and she works in retail. My wife and I had a foreboding she wasn't going to keep up with the rent and she didn't. She was making partial payments, less than one-third what she owed, with a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. Finally we decided she'd have to leave. We depend on the rental income, with heating, utilities and property tax, the numbers don't work if we don't have a paying tenant.

Long story short: New York eviction laws favor the tenant. She refused to cooperate and it took us eight months to get her out. During that time period she stopped paying rent altogether. Eight months is, so we discovered, about average for an eviction, at least around here. The judge finally ordered the eviction to proceed -- he told her she'd had "more than enough time to make other arrangements" -- and she moved out at the end of February, just before evictions were frozen.

The housing court where the eviction case was proceeding is now closed due to the virus. If our tenant had managed to delay this one more 'cycle' she'd still be with us. She had already occupied her part of the two-family house for almost ten months without paying a penny.

New York is probably more protective of tenants than many jurisdictions, and I'm sorry this happened to you. But I wonder if it might have gone differently if you had insisted that the new arrival -- and the original tenant, for that matter -- sign a lease. You could have forbidden the original tenant to sublet or transfer the property, and if the daughter had refused to sign you might have had her removed for trespassing. I wonder also if you could have told the mother she was still liable for the rent on the unit because it was rented to her, not her daughter. Real estate doesn't seem like the business to have handshake deals.

Last edited by Bob001; 11th April 2020 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 11th April 2020, 08:36 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If AirBnB can’t survive in a regulated market then it shouldn’t do.

AirBnB (and similar) started with a great idea, let’s help people rent their residential property like a hotel for a few weeks a year. Something people have been doing for a long time, the platforms just made this much easier. Unfortunately what has happened is that many people are running these properties as businesses and using these platforms to get away without following the regulations and tax laws that should apply to holiday homes, hotels, BnB and so on. Close the loopholes.
I'm not even worried about loopholes per se.

I do support AirBnB operators who are in compliance, and I understand why they want the physical addresses to be suppressed - it's a privacy issue for them. They're not operating a business, just exposing a spare room (and arguably their families) in their personal home to some risk in exchange for pin money. I have friends who are using the service as intended, more power to them.

The cheats aren't usually finding loopholes, they're just blatantly lying.

* the strata forbids it; when challenged, they just deny it's strangers, and claim these are family members
* the insurance company requires them to get renters insurance because of the higher risk; they just lie and say it's personal use property, including during claims investigations which may involve lying to the police as well about how the damage/theft actually happened
* the city bylaws allow anybody to have paid occupants up to 180 days a year, max stay 7 nights; they just ignore it and book all year for any length of stay and if anybody asks they lie about it
* the province says anybody exceeding the municipal bylaw's 180 days is operating a hotel and needs inspections, licensing; again, it's ignored and inquiries are met with lies
* the federal government is clear that all income must be declared on a personal tax form; a significant portion just doesn't, who's going to know
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Old 11th April 2020, 09:02 AM   #123
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Our lawyers told us not having a lease -- it's a private house -- really didn't make much difference. The judge indicated, if anything, that made it easier to evict the tenant since the tenant has fewer rights without a lease. I don't think having the daughter removed for criminal trespass would have been possible. Once the tenant is in possession of the apartment it becomes a civil matter.

My larger point was, however, the timing on the shutdown was late March. I would think most people would have their April rent ready by then. May is not due yet. As for being evicted, a lot depends on the relationship the tenant has with the property owner. At least in New York this is irrelevant, evictions are suspended: the housing courts are all closed. You can't get an eviction order issued right now, it's not possible. Existing eviction orders are not being enforced. The enforcement process is also suspended.

But don't forget, all property owners have expenses. I had to get up from writing this message to pay a balance owed to a plumber for some work we needed done. The work was completed this morning and I told the plumbing owner, the contractor, I would pay the balance when the job was completed. He called right after I started writing this message and said, "I'm right nearby. Can I stop at your house and we take care of this?" I said sure.

We paid our quarterly property tax installment last week The city didn't say that due to the current circumstances there would be no penalty for late payment. All the website says is they recommend paying online rather than by check or in person.

The bank I don't know about. We paid off our mortgage a few years ago. But the bank we do business with is usually pretty reasonable, that's why we do business with them.
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Old 11th April 2020, 11:21 PM   #124
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Possibly relevant:
Quote:
Now we have an idea of just how difficult: Nearly a third of 13.4 million US renters, 31%, didn't pay their rent between April 1 and April 5. That's according to data from the National Multifamily Housing Council, a trade association for the apartment industry.

Of more than 13 million units in the US that the report covered, 69% of renters paid their rent between April 1 and 5. During the same period in April 2019, 82% of households paid their rent on time, the report said. And just last month, 81% of renters paid rent by March 5.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ne...id=mailsignout
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Old 12th April 2020, 09:08 AM   #125
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In today's world one problem is, many workers have no benefits. In New York when they ordered non-essential businesses to close, many companies simply furloughed or laid off their work force. The workers get nothing from the company. I've been on my current job about nine months and I was somewhat lucky, I do get some limited pay. People who have worked there longer get up to ten weeks of their average pay check. A lot of businesses don't extend any assistance at all to employees who are laid off. Laid off employees are eligible for unemployment payments from New York State but that can take three weeks until you get your first payment.

It's a big problem. The one positive is, a lot of people are saying they 'lost' their job but technically they didn't: they are on a layoff or furlough. Once the shutdown ends, hopefully most of them will quickly get back to work.
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Old 12th April 2020, 10:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Experts are predicting massive evictions as soon as landlords can do it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...-homelessness/
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm not so sure that's going to happen. I think that kind of expert doesn't understand the macro-economic picture and is looking through tunnel vision at housing as a stand alone industry, which it absolutely is not.

If landlords evict tenants, who will replace them?

When you have 10-15% unemployment - and I'd put that as a minimum anywhere - the amount of people wanting to move into new accommodation will be very low, there will be massive downwards pressure on rents, and turfing people out will just about guarantee rent lost during the shutdown will be lost forever. AirBNB properties will all be hitting the market, creating an even bigger glut than would be normally the case after a crisis, because tourism isn't coming back anytime soon.

There will be a few landlords who look to evict, but once they realise they're cutting their own throats by doing so, they'll back-track and try to work with what they have. Even if they write off rent, they'll still have an income.
For landlords who are faced with the likelihood of continuously non paying renters, there are definitely going to be many who will evict and sell.

Some landlords will not be able to afford fronting the costs of owning without rent, and will be forced to sell. Others will just not want to lose money while they wait for the economy to improve. There are more than enough large companies and rich individuals that will be willing to buy the properties for suppressed prices while they wait out the storm.

Unless Congress acts (and possibly even if they do), there will almost certainly be millions more homeless people in the next few months.

Most of the blame for that is because Trump did not take this threat seriously, wasted a lot of time calling it a hoax, tried to make cuts to the CDC even as the pandemic was unfolding, and still has not put enough emphasis on massive testing which is likely the only way that we will get out of this mess.

I am not sure why landlords specifically are demonized when many businesses across the globe are having to make very difficult decisions.

The Corona virus was definitely going to be bad, but because we don't have competent or intelligent leadership in the Whitehouse, millions more people lost their jobs, millions of people will lose their housing, and tens of thousands more people have lost their lives than would have happened if we had a real leader in charge.
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Old 14th April 2020, 10:06 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
In today's world one problem is, many workers have no benefits. In New York when they ordered non-essential businesses to close, many companies simply furloughed or laid off their work force. The workers get nothing from the company. I've been on my current job about nine months and I was somewhat lucky, I do get some limited pay. People who have worked there longer get up to ten weeks of their average pay check. A lot of businesses don't extend any assistance at all to employees who are laid off. Laid off employees are eligible for unemployment payments from New York State but that can take three weeks until you get your first payment.

It's a big problem. The one positive is, a lot of people are saying they 'lost' their job but technically they didn't: they are on a layoff or furlough. Once the shutdown ends, hopefully most of them will quickly get back to work.
I'm observing the same thing here in Canada. Benefits erosion over the last four decades has created a labour population that has been hanging on by their fingernails and this crisis has exposed the scale of it. After we get some return to normalcy, I really hope it's a wakeup call for labour organization and safety net legislation.

Regarding returning to work after the shutdown ends... not everybody will be able to do that and I'm trying to make an estimate of the percentage. Just as an example, I have friends whose incomes depend on year long programs that have been outright cancelled. The VSO's concerts, for example. My wife's choir scrapped their 2020 itinerary. My friend depends on getting paid to organize the local Car Show for about 50% of his annual income, and that was canceled, there's no chance it'll be rebooked.

That type of unrecoverable income loss will propagate to lower consumer demand for the foreseeable future, probably well into 2021.
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Old 20th April 2020, 01:11 PM   #128
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There's the law, and then there's what people. do:
Quote:
Landlords in at least four states have violated the eviction ban passed by Congress last month, a review of records shows, moving to throw more than a hundred people out of their homes.

In an effort to help renters amid the coronavirus pandemic and skyrocketing unemployment, the March 27 CARES Act banned eviction filings for all federally backed rental units nationwide, more than a quarter of the total.

But ProPublica found building owners who are simply not following the law, with no apparent consequence, filing to evict tenants from properties in Georgia, Oklahoma, Texas and Florida. The scores of cases ProPublica found represent only a small slice of the true total because there’s no nationwide — or, in many cases, even statewide — database of eviction filin
https://www.propublica.org/article/d...g-the-pandemic
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:17 AM   #129
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Cancel Rent movement

https://dnyuz.com/2020/05/01/cancelr...s-are-alarmed/

Edited by zooterkin:  Quote box added.

Quote:
As unemployment soars across the country, tenants rights groups and community nonprofits have rallied around an audacious goal: to persuade the government to halt rent and mortgage payments — without back payments accruing — for as long as the economy is battered by the coronavirus.

While the prospect of this happening is low, the campaigns are less about pushing a particular piece of legislation and more about kindling a mass movement akin to the Occupy Wall Street protests that followed the 2008 financial crisis.

Last edited by zooterkin; 1st May 2020 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:18 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
https://dnyuz.com/2020/05/01/cancelr...s-are-alarmed/

As unemployment soars across the country, tenants rights groups and community nonprofits have rallied around an audacious goal: to persuade the government to halt rent and mortgage payments — without back payments accruing — for as long as the economy is battered by the coronavirus.

While the prospect of this happening is low, the campaigns are less about pushing a particular piece of legislation and more about kindling a mass movement akin to the Occupy Wall Street protests that followed the 2008 financial crisis.
Why do think it is low?
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:23 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why do think it is low?
ask the author
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:24 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
ask the author
I thought I did?
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:26 AM   #133
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"the organizing strategy is figuring out how we rally around that and politicize it for our benefit,” said Tara Raghuveer, director of the Homes Guarantee campaign of People’s Action, a national network of local advocacy organizations."
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:39 AM   #134
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It is pretty absurd to do this across the board, even for tenants who have the same capacity to pay rents that they always did.

Sometimes tenants are richer than their landlords, sometimes just about the same, often rents are the only source of income for some middle class families.

I agree that in cases of genuine hardship the rent should be paused with landlords being able to get a pause on mortgage repayments.

For full disclosure, yes, I do have an investment property.
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Old 1st May 2020, 05:54 AM   #135
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Robbing Peter to pay Paul is neither justice nor economically wise. Apart from the fairness issue it doesn't actually solve any problems, it just shifts the problems to another node in the system. If an economic disaster is preventing renters from paying rent the solution isn't to cancel rent, it's to fix the economic disaster. In the meantime steps to ameliorate the impact can be taken. Payment plans, partial payments, grants, tax relief, assistance programs. I doubt this situation is wholly unprecented, surely things have been done before?

Renters seeking to escape paying rent due to the current situation are profiteering off the disaster just as much as the mega-corporations doing the same with evil tax loopholes or whatever.
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Old 1st May 2020, 06:05 AM   #136
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Even if it somehow get in place the losses will be transferred to the banks.

Banks just don't take losses like that without making up for it in something else. Credit card interests or some other service will be " adjusted " so the bank does not lose money.

It will bite harder later. Somewhere.
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Old 1st May 2020, 06:15 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
"the organizing strategy is figuring out how we rally around that and politicize it for our benefit,” said Tara Raghuveer, director of the Homes Guarantee campaign of People’s Action, a national network of local advocacy organizations."
You seem to have forgotten to post your comments?
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Old 1st May 2020, 12:11 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
......
Renters seeking to escape paying rent due to the current situation are profiteering off the disaster just as much as the mega-corporations doing the same with evil tax loopholes or whatever.
I don't think I understand the issue. Some jurisdictions have suspended evictions for non-payment during the crisis. Renters can keep their homes without paying for now. But at some point renters will have to catch up, ideally by negotiating reasonable payment plans with their landlords. Is someone really claiming that renters should be able to just stop paying rent forever? I'm not even sure how you would write laws to accomplish that.
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Old 1st May 2020, 09:46 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Robbing Peter to pay Paul is neither justice nor economically wise. Apart from the fairness issue it doesn't actually solve any problems, it just shifts the problems to another node in the system.
Shifting to a different node, one more capable of bearing the weight, can actually help to deal with the problem. There's no reason to think all nodes are equally resilient, and if the failure of one node can have negative repercussions for the others, then shifting some of the weight from one node to another can be a good idea.

Quote:
If an economic disaster is preventing renters from paying rent the solution isn't to cancel rent, it's to fix the economic disaster.
If it were possible to do so, I think that would be everyone's preferred solution.

Sometimes when you're getting wet, you just turn off the sprinklers. Sometimes you have to go inside because it's raining, and you can't turn off the rain.

Quote:
In the meantime steps to ameliorate the impact can be taken. Payment plans, partial payments, grants, tax relief, assistance programs. I doubt this situation is wholly unprecented, surely things have been done before?
This seems quite reasonable, but these sorts of steps are quite similar to the idea of cancelling rent and mortgage payments during the worst period of the lockdown.

Quote:
Renters seeking to escape paying rent due to the current situation are profiteering off the disaster just as much as the mega-corporations doing the same with evil tax loopholes or whatever.
The way I see it is that many renters are incapable of paying rent due to the current situation. Evicting them because of that would likely be worse for everyone. It would be great if they could pay rent, and certainly any relief can't last forever, but as a stop-gap measure to help us all get through this situation it makes sense. Hopefully help can also be extended to landlords who struggle through this when their income is lost, and banks who struggle due to loss of mortgage payments, where necessary.

It may even turn out that an in depth analysis shows that landlords are even less able to sustain not taking in rents right now than renters are to paying them. I doubt that's the general case, but it's certainly the case in some situations, and if relief could be targeted to those in need that would be great, though there's also the consideration of the expense incurred by the targeting.
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:40 PM   #140
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Washington Post: San Diego County resumes some evictions despite moratorium.
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Old 11th May 2020, 08:50 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Washington Post: San Diego County resumes some evictions despite moratorium.
Let me guess: The article you didn't link to doesn't provide any explanation of what kinds of evictions are being resumed, nor why.

---

It probably doesn't make sense to evict people right now, who were paying their rent up until the shutdown cut off their income.

On the other hand, if someone was already not paying their rent, and eviction proceedings were already underway before the shutdown, it probably doesn't make sense to halt the eviction now. At least, it probably doesn't make sense to halt the eviction for failure to pay.

It might make sense for other reasons. Some municipalities have determined that having a large homeless population contributes to the spread of the disease. They're actively "homing" their homeless, at least temporarily. So it might make sense on that basis to hold off on evicting someone who was always going to be evicted anyway, just to reduce the number of homeless at the moment. But that seems like something to be judged on a case by case basis, by the communities that have adopted certain policies for controlling the spread of the disease.

If San Diego thinks some evictions can proceed, that's for them to say. I doubt a local paper three thousand miles away, with no knowledge of the context and not even any investigative journalism going on, has anything useful to say about it.
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Old 12th May 2020, 03:57 PM   #142
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We are not evicting anyone at the moment, but one pair of tenants is on our short list.

We have several residential duplexes that we have as rentals. Some of the tenants have been very hard hit by the shutdown. We have told these tenants that we are not expecting rent payments for the moment.

One pair of renters, neither of whom have had any income impact, have also refused to pay rent because they do not think it fair that they should pay rent when their neighbors don't. We are not pressing the issue, but they have not given us any reason to renew their lease when it expires in June.
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Old 6th July 2020, 10:48 AM   #143
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No more Mr. Nice Guy. Mass evictions expected.
Quote:
A backlog of eviction cases is beginning to move through the court system as millions of Americans who had counted on federal aid and eviction moratoriums to stay in their homes now fear being thrown out.

A crisis among renters is expected to deepen this month as the enhanced unemployment benefits that have kept many afloat run out at the end of the July, and the $1,200 per adult stimulus payment that had supported households earlier in the crisis becomes a distant memory.

Meanwhile, enforcement of federal moratoriums on some types of evictions is uneven, with experts warning that judges’ efforts to limit access to courtrooms or hold hearings online because of covid-19 could increasingly leave elderly or poor renters at a disadvantage.

Of the 110 million Americans living in rental households, 20 percent are at risk of eviction by Sept. 30, according to an analysis by the Covid-19 Eviction Defense Project, a Colorado-based community group. African American and Hispanic renters are expected to be hardest hit.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...iums-starwood/
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Old 6th July 2020, 11:11 AM   #144
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This is the hidden time bomb of economic fallout from Covid.

In NZ, the banks released numbers yesterday that showed 108,000 mortgages are currently on payment holidays. That's about 5% of all properties in the country, and the best estimate of rental arrears says that 30-40% of renters are behind with payments.

I'd expect the situation in UK, Italy & Spain to be even worse.
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Old 7th July 2020, 04:58 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No more Mr. Nice Guy. Mass evictions expected.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...iums-starwood/
It's almost as if the government wants to radicalize all the poor. Let's hope they break to the left rather than to fascism.
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Old 31st July 2020, 11:34 AM   #146
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Ticking time bomb: given America's inept handling of the disease, what chance the handling of the economy and tenancies will be better?

I suspect things are going to get ugly when the moratorium expires. (and not just in USA)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/evict...b66859f1f3545b
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Old 31st July 2020, 12:46 PM   #147
Lukraak_Sisser
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
For landlords who are faced with the likelihood of continuously non paying renters, there are definitely going to be many who will evict and sell.

Some landlords will not be able to afford fronting the costs of owning without rent, and will be forced to sell. Others will just not want to lose money while they wait for the economy to improve. There are more than enough large companies and rich individuals that will be willing to buy the properties for suppressed prices while they wait out the storm.

Unless Congress acts (and possibly even if they do), there will almost certainly be millions more homeless people in the next few months.

Most of the blame for that is because Trump did not take this threat seriously, wasted a lot of time calling it a hoax, tried to make cuts to the CDC even as the pandemic was unfolding, and still has not put enough emphasis on massive testing which is likely the only way that we will get out of this mess.

I am not sure why landlords specifically are demonized when many businesses across the globe are having to make very difficult decisions.

The Corona virus was definitely going to be bad, but because we don't have competent or intelligent leadership in the Whitehouse, millions more people lost their jobs, millions of people will lose their housing, and tens of thousands more people have lost their lives than would have happened if we had a real leader in charge.
The thing is, the last time a cycle like this happened in 2008 or so, it turned out that there will be no people to sell the houses TO, nor will there be a glut of renters that can snap up the properties.
Given what happened then it would be logical for banks to also allow a freeze on mortgage payments for a while, to prevent a similar domino effect.

Of course, had the US had an actual social security system the effects would be at least lessened. Or made the stimulus packages to include a clause that the money will only be given if there are no lay-offs during the situation.
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