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Old 31st March 2020, 12:00 PM   #1
plague311
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Idaho Gov. Signs 2 Anti-Trans laws

Sounds like he or his administration are going to face some court fines, and possibly more:

Quote:
The Republican governor approved legislation that prohibits transgender people from changing the sex listed on their birth certificates, and another that bans transgender girls and women from competing in women’s sports.

The birth certificate measure ignores a 2018 federal court ruling that a past law barring transgender people from making the birth certificate changes violated the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The judge scrapped the ban and warned against new rules. The Idaho attorney general's office, which didn't appeal the ruling, said it could cost $1 million if the state had to defend the ban again and lost.
The federal court already warned them so this is probably not going to go over very well. Basically the basis is that it's not fair to female athletics if trans-women get to compete. The others would face a disadvantage. The US Justice Department is supporting a separate lawsuit that's pretty comparable:

Quote:
Meanwhile, the families of three female high school runners have filed a lawsuit in federal court seeking to block transgender athletes in Connecticut from participating in girls' sports.

On March 24, the U.S. Justice Department came out in support of the lawsuit, arguing that the state's inclusive policy violates the federal Title IX law allowing girls equal educational and athletic opportunities.
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Last edited by plague311; 31st March 2020 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 31st March 2020, 01:18 PM   #2
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The middle of a plague outbreak is certainly the best time to focus on important matters like what chromosomes high school athletes might have.
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Old 31st March 2020, 01:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The middle of a plague outbreak is certainly the best time to focus on important matters like what chromosomes high school athletes might have.
Seems as good a time as any other. As much as possible, we should try to continue business as usual. If there's government business on the docket, and the government can get it done, it should do so.

The birth certificate one seems excessive, but I wonder if it's related to the 'no tranwomen athletes' one. (Former) men competing in women's sports is probably going to be the death of women's sports. Especially at the high school and college level, where it's probably most important. Prohibiting that makes sense.

What happens when a woman shows up at a new school, enrolls in competitive women's sports programs, and dominates them all because she's trans? You could try to contest it under the "no transwomen in women's sports" law. But then she pulls out her birth certificate and other identifying documents, and legally she's a woman and there's nothing you can do.

So prohibiting the change to fundamental legal identification documents is probably going to be necessary to make the prohibition on transwomen in women's sports actually matter.

None of this would be a problem if transwomen athletes weren't selfish douchebags who'd rather destroy women's sports than compromise one iota on their social identity. But they are, and so now transsexuals in general can't have nice things.
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Old 31st March 2020, 01:52 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems as good a time as any other. As much as possible, we should try to continue business as usual. If there's government business on the docket, and the government can get it done, it should do so.

The birth certificate one seems excessive, but I wonder if it's related to the 'no tranwomen athletes' one. (Former) men competing in women's sports is probably going to be the death of women's sports. Especially at the high school and college level, where it's probably most important. Prohibiting that makes sense.

What happens when a woman shows up at a new school, enrolls in competitive women's sports programs, and dominates them all because she's trans? You could try to contest it under the "no transwomen in women's sports" law. But then she pulls out her birth certificate and other identifying documents, and legally she's a woman and there's nothing you can do.

So prohibiting the change to fundamental legal identification documents is probably going to be necessary to make the prohibition on transwomen in women's sports actually matter.

None of this would be a problem if transwomen athletes weren't selfish douchebags who'd rather destroy women's sports than compromise one iota on their social identity. But they are, and so now transsexuals in general can't have nice things.
Ah, yes, sports is Very Important. I get confused because they seem to be entirely optional entertainments for both participants and observers.
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Old 31st March 2020, 03:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems as good a time as any other. As much as possible, we should try to continue business as usual. If there's government business on the docket, and the government can get it done, it should do so.

The birth certificate one seems excessive, but I wonder if it's related to the 'no tranwomen athletes' one. (Former) men competing in women's sports is probably going to be the death of women's sports. Especially at the high school and college level, where it's probably most important. Prohibiting that makes sense.

What happens when a woman shows up at a new school, enrolls in competitive women's sports programs, and dominates them all because she's trans? You could try to contest it under the "no transwomen in women's sports" law. But then she pulls out her birth certificate and other identifying documents, and legally she's a woman and there's nothing you can do.

So prohibiting the change to fundamental legal identification documents is probably going to be necessary to make the prohibition on transwomen in women's sports actually matter.

None of this would be a problem if transwomen athletes weren't selfish douchebags who'd rather destroy women's sports than compromise one iota on their social identity. But they are, and so now transsexuals in general can't have nice things.
I agree. A sex change operation should be seen, from a sports perspective, as being no different from a doping in order to gain a performance enhancement - its an elective surgical procedure. Just imagine if there was another elective surgical procedure operation that could give an athlete greater speed or stamina, a football player greater strength. Would that be allowed? Should it be allowed?

A birth certificate itself should be immutable, it should not be allowed to be changed at all. Anyone having a sex change should be allowed to have an identification certificate as an addendum to their birth certificate showing that the person has changed their gender, but the original birth certificate remains unchanged. That way, a sport can demand the original if a player's gender is no doubt.
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Old 31st March 2020, 03:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes, sports is Very Important. I get confused because they seem to be entirely optional entertainments for both participants and observers.
Sports people are also professionals, playing sports is their living.
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Old 31st March 2020, 03:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes, sports is Very Important. I get confused because they seem to be entirely optional entertainments for both participants and observers.
I mean, if you don't value women's sports programs in high school and college, then of course you're going to reach a different conclusion than I do.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 4th April 2020 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Sports people are also professionals, playing sports is their living.
I believe people also make livings from playing video games, telling fortunes, and discussing celebrity scandals. That doesn't make those things important to society.
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, if you don't value women's sports programs in high school and college, then of course you're going to reach a different conclusion than I do.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
I don't value sports, period. The attempt to cast me as a misogynist is pretty funny, but you spoiled it with the personalization at the end. I fear the plague has robbed you of your usual subtlety.
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't value sports, period. The attempt to cast me as a misogynist is pretty funny, but you spoiled it with the personalization at the end. I fear the plague has robbed you of your usual subtlety.
My bad. I wasn't attempting to cast you as a misogynist. Maybe you have other reasons for not valuing women's sports programs at the high school and college level.

I do think that not valuing human athletics, including competitive athletics, definitely puts you on the wrong side of history, society, and biology. In a way, it's almost worse than not valuing transsexual identity. Especially if denying the value of sports is your solution to the conundrum of valuing both sports and transsexual identity.
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My bad. I wasn't attempting to cast you as a misogynist. Maybe you have other reasons for not valuing women's sports programs at the high school and college level.
Still at it? If I don't value the set "sports" then of course I wouldn't value a subset of that set. I can't believe your repetition of your remark is anything other than an attempt to cast me as a misogynist. Like (I know how much you adore analogies) you were to say you didn't care for human beings and I then responded with how you don't like black people.


Quote:
I do think that not valuing human athletics, including competitive athletics, definitely puts you on the wrong side of history, society, and biology. In a way, it's almost worse than not valuing transsexual identity. Especially if denying the value of sports is your solution to the conundrum of valuing both sports and transsexual identity.
Oh, dear! I'm on the wrong side of history! What a pity. And not valuing sports is worse than bigotry against transsexuals! You get into some interesting positions when you're trying so hard to disagree with me. I also don't think monogamy's a good thing, can you work that in there as well?
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Still at it? If I don't value the set "sports" then of course I wouldn't value a subset of that set. I can't believe your repetition of your remark is anything other than an attempt to cast me as a misogynist. Like (I know how much you adore analogies) you were to say you didn't care for human beings and I then responded with how you don't like black people.
I get it now. I didn't earlier. It simply didn't occur to me that you actually didn't value sports at all, or even actually didn't value women's sports. I assumed* that the sarcastic dickish tone was more in frustration at the devaluing of trans identity, rather than a sincere devaluing of sports in general.

I'm very sorry for implying you were a misogynist. That wasn't my intention. I don't actually think you are a misogynist. I never have.

Now I understand you simply don't value sports at all. That makes sense of your earlier comments, and I appreciate you explaining it.

Quote:
Oh, dear! I'm on the wrong side of history! What a pity. And not valuing sports is worse than bigotry against transsexuals! You get into some interesting positions when you're trying so hard to disagree with me. I also don't think monogamy's a good thing, can you work that in there as well?
I mean, bigotry against athletes and those who value athleticism does cover a lot more people than bigotry against transsexuals. Is hating a lot of people worse than hating a few people? I don't know, but maybe. It's not better, I think.

---
*Yes, I know.
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Old 31st March 2020, 04:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, bigotry against athletes and those who value athleticism does cover a lot more people than bigotry against transsexuals. Is hating a lot of people worse than hating a few people?
Interesting that you equate "not value" with "hating" and "being bigoted against". I don't value crown molding, interpretive dance, RC Cola, car racing, and those kinds of dogs that always have wet hair around their eyes. That doesn't mean I hate those things or the people who indulge in them.
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Old 31st March 2020, 05:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I agree. A sex change operation should be seen, from a sports perspective, as being no different from a doping in order to gain a performance enhancement - its an elective surgical procedure. Just imagine if there was another elective surgical procedure operation that could give an athlete greater speed or stamina, a football player greater strength. Would that be allowed? Should it be allowed?

Bear in mind that this is not, or very very seldom, about people who have had an actual "sex change" operation. (You can't actually change your sex but we know what is meant by that term.)

There is scarcely an adult transwoman athlete at all who has had that surgery. And I say "scarcely" just in case there are one or two somewhere I'm not aware of. All the examples we see being discussed are physically intact males.

The most that is done is to take hormones that decrease their circulating testosterone concentration to "only" about ten times the normal female concentration. And that is only a requirement for high-level competitions like the Olympics. College and school sports do not have any such requirements. Indeed, in the context of the age limits on these treatments, one can be certain that none of the junior boys now calling themselves girls have had any surgery at all, and most have had no hormones.

Make no mistake about it, at school level and also generally at college level, as you say the stage where it's most important for girls who want to emerge into serious athletics, the boys who choose to run in the girls' classes are just that. Boys who have grown their hair and adopted a girl's name. Full stop. And some of them are built like rugby prop-forwards too.
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Old 31st March 2020, 06:47 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't value sports, period. The attempt to cast me as a misogynist is pretty funny, but you spoiled it with the personalization at the end. I fear the plague has robbed you of your usual subtlety.
Then why are you in this thread? Seems like a waste of time.

At minimum, a large minority of people care about sports. Therefore, the political focus on that should be unsurprising basically regardless of outside factors like pandemic or even war. There's always "more important" things to focus on.
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Old 31st March 2020, 07:08 PM   #16
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I don't value this thread
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Old 31st March 2020, 08:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Then why are you in this thread? Seems like a waste of time.

At minimum, a large minority of people care about sports. Therefore, the political focus on that should be unsurprising basically regardless of outside factors like pandemic or even war. There's always "more important" things to focus on.
Government wasting time and resources on something that isn't important is a bad thing, if there are more important things it should be doing.
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Old 31st March 2020, 08:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I believe people also make livings from playing video games, telling fortunes, and discussing celebrity scandals. That doesn't make those things important to society.
Why do you hate capitalism America?
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Old 31st March 2020, 09:53 PM   #19
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Look, its just very important to have a strong government that controls what people do in their private lives. After all, that is what the GOP stands for right?
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Old 31st March 2020, 09:59 PM   #20
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This must be why gawd punished Idaho with a 6.5 earthquake today.
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Old 31st March 2020, 10:08 PM   #21
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What's wrong with having a 6'4" 240 lb muscled up son that plays high school football? Nothing, and if we put him in a dress, let him play with the girls team he's guaranteed to get that scholarship! Win win! I think being progressive can be wonderful as long as it saves me money. Of course there may be some talented biological young lady on the team that won't attend college for lack of a scholarship, but hey as long as that scholarship comes thru for the "boy daughter" wink wink, who cares!

What have I been thinking!

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Old 1st April 2020, 01:25 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
What's wrong with having a 6'4" 240 lb muscled up son that plays high school football? Nothing, and if we put him in a dress, let him play with the girls team he's guaranteed to get that scholarship! Win win! I think being progressive can be wonderful as long as it saves me money. Of course there may be some talented biological young lady on the team that won't attend college for lack of a scholarship, but hey as long as that scholarship comes thru for the "boy daughter" wink wink, who cares!

What have I been thinking!

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Old 1st April 2020, 07:01 AM   #23
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Ok, so if I'm understanding this right. If a person is trans they just have no rights to play sports at all? Is that what I'm seeing here? Or is it totally cool if, while they transition and after, they play on the "side" they were born on? I don't see anyone agreeing with any of it.

So we're basically saying that sports are such a sacred thing that, if you're trans, you have to make a choice? That's ****** up. Usually you hear stories of teachers and tutors just passing athletes so they can focus on sports. In this unique situation, these students are being told to go **** themselves. Be happy or play sports. I can totally see how transgender people feel like they have equal rights
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Interesting that you equate "not value" with "hating" and "being bigoted against". I don't value crown molding, interpretive dance, RC Cola, car racing, and those kinds of dogs that always have wet hair around their eyes. That doesn't mean I hate those things or the people who indulge in them.
There are many things that don't have a lot of value for me, personally. However, I still recognize that they have a lot of value for a lot of people, both historically and in the present day.

What seems like bigotry to me is not only not valuing sports, but dismissing everyone who does value sports. To the extent that you think making laws and policies to preserve the value of sports for lots of people is a waste of government resources.

That's dismissing a clear and prevalent social valuation of sports, and all the people who share that value even if you don't. Just because you don't care for it, nobody else should care fore it, and anyone who does is wrong.

Do you really think that way? Billions of people around the world and throughout history shouldn't have this interest, because you don't have this interest? What is that, if not bigotry? Narcissism?
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, so if I'm understanding this right. If a person is trans they just have no rights to play sports at all? Is that what I'm seeing here? Or is it totally cool if, while they transition and after, they play on the "side" they were born on? I don't see anyone agreeing with any of it.

So we're basically saying that sports are such a sacred thing that, if you're trans, you have to make a choice? That's ****** up. Usually you hear stories of teachers and tutors just passing athletes so they can focus on sports. In this unique situation, these students are being told to go **** themselves. Be happy or play sports. I can totally see how transgender people feel like they have equal rights : rolleyes :
The problem specifically is transwomen competing in women's sports. It's pretty clear that this will destroy competitive women's sports.

Aside from the rolleyes emoticon, what solution do you propose? It's a difficult problem, that doesn't seem to have any good solution in my opinion, just a short list of evils, hopefully one of which will be eventually accepted as the lesser evil.

If you've got something better to offer, please share it with the world.
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Old 1st April 2020, 07:56 AM   #26
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Everyone has the right to play sports in the category that is right for their physical body. Feelings in someone's head don't give them the right to muscle into a category they're not physically eligible.


Would you say that a 25 year old was being denied the right to play sports at all if he was ruled ineligible for the under-10s classes even though he feels in his head that he's only nine? Would you say that an able-bodied guy was being denied the right to play sports at all if he was ruled ineligible for the amputee class, or the partially sighted class, even though he feels in his head that he's disabled?
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Old 1st April 2020, 08:02 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are many things that don't have a lot of value for me, personally. However, I still recognize that they have a lot of value for a lot of people, both historically and in the present day.

What seems like bigotry to me is not only not valuing sports, but dismissing everyone who does value sports. To the extent that you think making laws and policies to preserve the value of sports for lots of people is a waste of government resources.

That's dismissing a clear and prevalent social valuation of sports, and all the people who share that value even if you don't. Just because you don't care for it, nobody else should care fore it, and anyone who does is wrong.

Do you really think that way? Billions of people around the world and throughout history shouldn't have this interest, because you don't have this interest? What is that, if not bigotry? Narcissism?
Billions of people value chiropracty. I look forward to your ardent support of a stimulus package to promote that industry. Gotta unsubluxate and let the qi energy flow! Who are you to deny what other people care about?

As for requiring these anti-trans laws to "preserve the value of sports" tell me, sportsman: when you do your sports are they less fun than they'd be without these laws? Does your rugby game feel empty because in Idaho high schools there isn't a law preventing trans kids from competing? Do you anticipate the NBA will shut up shop, and hockey will no longer be played? Will these industries collapse as professionals abandon their careers, audiences decide not to watch, and amateurs take to their couches forever?

That you feel your most sacred SPORTS are somehow threatened by what might happen in Idaho high schools suggests you don't think this vast sporting tradition is so very fundamental to civilization after all; if it were that important then it would definitely survive the horrors of 0.000001% of the population possibly competing in the "wrong" category. In high school. In Idaho.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem specifically is transwomen competing in women's sports. It's pretty clear that this will destroy competitive women's sports.
Because it's such a common occurrence? I've read in multiple threads around here that transpeople make up less than 1% of the population. You don't think "destroy competitive women's sports" is a little bit hyperbolic? Don't worry, no need to reply to that. I already know and I don't care.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Aside from the rolleyes emoticon, what solution do you propose? It's a difficult problem, that doesn't seem to have any good solution in my opinion, just a short list of evils, hopefully one of which will be eventually accepted as the lesser evil.
It's not a difficult problem for me because I don't take high school and collegiate sports seriously enough to force any one person to feel like **** about who they are to single them out. You do. We can disagree and I'm sure as ******* hell not going to change your mind. That's for sure.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you've got something better to offer, please share it with the world.
Let them play. ******* asterisk them if you want to. Do whatever you feel best. It's not my ******* job to come up with new solutions and frankly I don't feel compelled too. I can legitimately not like a situation without feeling the need to create a solution myself.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:08 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Everyone has the right to play sports in the category that is right for their physical body. Feelings in someone's head don't give them the right to muscle into a category they're not physically eligible.


Would you say that a 25 year old was being denied the right to play sports at all if he was ruled ineligible for the under-10s classes even though he feels in his head that he's only nine? Would you say that an able-bodied guy was being denied the right to play sports at all if he was ruled ineligible for the amputee class, or the partially sighted class, even though he feels in his head that he's disabled?
In every way I can possibly mean this, I have seen your posts on transgender people, and I don't respect your opinion at all. On this topic I have no want or desire to interact with you, and this post shows why. You treat transgender as a mental health disorder, a sickness, and frankly it makes me ill. Please don't bother addressing me in these topics in the future, I have no time for people that think that way. It's much appreciated.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Because it's such a common occurrence? I've read in multiple threads around here that transpeople make up less than 1% of the population. You don't think "destroy competitive women's sports" is a little bit hyperbolic? Don't worry, no need to reply to that. I already know and I don't care.
If 1% of competitors have a huge physical advantage why wouldn't that kill the sport?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
If 1% of competitors have a huge physical advantage why wouldn't that kill the sport?
1% of the population =! 1% of people that play sports. Unless you're implying all of America plays sports in high school. I didn't, none of my kids did, so I can safely put that to bed. If you did that means 1 out of us 4 played sports. So 1% of 25%...

You know what else kills women's sports? Men's sports. After all, as has been said here, they have a huge physical advantage. If we're so concerned about women's sports, shut down men's sports. That would help them way more than anything else. Haven't you even seen A League of their Own?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:31 AM   #32
Manger Douse
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
1% of the population =! 1% of people that play sports. Unless you're implying all of America plays sports in high school. I didn't, none of my kids did, so I can safely put that to bed. If you did that means 1 out of us 4 played sports. So 1% of 25%...
I don't agree with your maths, but however you want to divide it - how does a group (of whatever %) having a huge physical advantage not ruin the sport for those who don't?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You know what else kills women's sports? Men's sports. After all, as has been said here, they have a huge physical advantage. If we're so concerned about women's sports, shut down men's sports. That would help them way more than anything else. Haven't you even seen A League of their Own?
I don't understand your point - Mens and womens sports are already separate because of the physical advantages men have no?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:36 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
If 1% of competitors have a huge physical advantage why wouldn't that kill the sport?
Hence why we need to ban Michael Phelps from swimming, to promote fair competition. Sports are for the average people not freakish outliers like him.
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
I don't agree with your maths, but however you want to divide it - how does a group (of whatever %) having a huge physical advantage not ruin the sport for those who don't?
Hence why michael phelps ruined swimming.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...539_story.html
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:38 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
I don't agree with your maths, but however you want to divide it - how does a group (of whatever %) having a huge physical advantage not ruin the sport for those who don't?
Show me different math then. In any case, is it ruining them now? Is there an extremely large amount of social outpour? I see a few lawsuits, I don't know that I've come across more than a dozen. What is it doing, exactly, to the sports? Can someone show me an actual impact (in some statistical form) on women's competitive sports?

Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
I don't understand your point - Mens and womens sports are already separate because of the physical advantages men have no?
The point being that men's sports actively take people away from women's sports (fans, funding, etc). It causes them to be viewed as a "lesser sport" because it's women playing and not men. Many have implied that men are stronger, and more athletic. That's why transgender women shouldn't be allowed to participate. I thought the point was pretty clear.

ETA:
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hence why michael phelps ruined swimming.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...539_story.html
Hell, Mike Trout is ruining baseball because he's the best 5-tool player in the game. We've got two Mike's here creating problems, all Micheal's need the boot!
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:54 AM   #36
Manger Douse
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Show me different math then. In any case, is it ruining them now? Is there an extremely large amount of social outpour? I see a few lawsuits, I don't know that I've come across more than a dozen. What is it doing, exactly, to the sports? Can someone show me an actual impact (in some statistical form) on women's competitive sports?
Because the pool of people wanting to join in that sport is still the same. Before I answer your next question, can you tell me why a group of whatever % having a huge innate physical advantage wont ruin the sport?


Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

The point being that men's sports actively take people away from women's sports (fans, funding, etc). It causes them to be viewed as a "lesser sport" because it's women playing and not men. Many have implied that men are stronger, and more athletic. That's why transgender women shouldn't be allowed to participate. I thought the point was pretty clear.
Do you think allowing people who have a innate physical advantage to compete in a "lesser sport" won't be a determent to that sport?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:55 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hence why we need to ban Michael Phelps from swimming, to promote fair competition. Sports are for the average people not freakish outliers like him.
Why do you think there's such a difference between times, weights etc between mens and womens sports?
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Old 1st April 2020, 10:56 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hence why we need to ban Michael Phelps from swimming, to promote fair competition. Sports are for the average people not freakish outliers like him.
What solution do you propose, ponderingturtle?
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Why do you think there's such a difference between times, weights etc between mens and womens sports?
sexism!!!!
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Old 1st April 2020, 11:56 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, if you don't value women's sports programs in high school and college, then of course you're going to reach a different conclusion than I do.

But there's no reason to be a sarcastic dick just because you disagree with me.
I value women's sports, which is why I don't want to exclude women from competition.

This whole discussion is like abortion. There, the position really lies between whether a fetus is a person or not and the two sides just talk past each other.

Here, it rests on if you think transwomen are women or not.
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