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Old 13th April 2020, 04:50 AM   #121
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
First, the purpose of women-only leagues and Title IX in the US. They are designed to exclude a certain category with a general advantage. It is entirely predictable that transwomen would pose a question in this case.

Other than that, advantage is sometimes accounted for in sports. Its why a fair number of them have weight classes, even within a gender division.
Yes, I considered both of those points. And, again, I'm not saying this is a simple issue or without grey areas.

But I recall the most recent Winter Olympics. Chemmy Alcott was a regular punter and I forget exactly how they got on to the subject, but in one segment she talked about how she was built to be a skier, and went through a checklist of physical traits - from body shape through to thigh size, etc. - that she inherited from each parent and how they were all the ideal for skiing. Or I think about how I've seen Michael Phelps described as having the perfect body for swimming, from a triangular torso through to having huge "scoop-like" hands, etc. Or even about what the study quoted above said about how testosterone affects different men in different ways meaning that some men will naturally be more muscular than others, or will find it easier to build up muscle than others do. The list goes on and on.

And I think about all of that and I try to justify why a transwoman being taller or more muscular (and bearing in mind that these things are only true on average in aggregate) than her competitors is different, and I can't think of a single reason why it should be.

All of that, of course, is assuming that evidence eventually demonstrates that transwomen really do have a significant competitive advantage.
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Old 13th April 2020, 07:03 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's not a dissimilar parallel with McKinnon in the cycling world. People say, oh but look he doesn't always win, it's all fine. He's a flabby overweight middle-aged amateur and he's right up there with the elite women who have been training hard and shaving seconds off their times for many years.
You repeatedly saying this **** doesn't really make it true. You do know that right? It just shows how hateful you are towards transpeople, for some reason. I don't know why that is, but it's extremely clear. I've never participated in a transgender thread and I can certainly say this has been very eye-opening by seeing how people express their feelings about this particular group. Seriously shocking.

But to put to bed this nonsensical argument. Here is the image search for McKinnon. If you find that human to be "flabby" or "overweight" then this throws into serious doubt any self claimed knowledge of medicine. It's just a ludicrous statement born out of nothing but hate. Secondly, per the news:

Quote:
Birth date: July 18, 1982 (age 37 years)
Followed by:

Quote:
In 2018, she became the first transgender world track cycling champion by placing first at the UCI Women’s Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket.
Her most notable achievement came when she was 35, in a bracket made for people 35-44. If she's middle aged, so was everyone else she was competing with. You can feel free to remove that bull **** statement from your next disingenuous poo flinging. Other than that, all you're doing is stamping your feet because someone who is different won something.
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Last edited by plague311; 13th April 2020 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 13th April 2020, 07:57 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You repeatedly saying this **** doesn't really make it true. You do know that right? It just shows how hateful you are towards transpeople, for some reason. I don't know why that is, but it's extremely clear. I've never participated in a transgender thread and I can certainly say this has been very eye-opening by seeing how people express their feelings about this particular group. Seriously shocking.

But to put to bed this nonsensical argument. Here is the image search for McKinnon. If you find that human to be "flabby" or "overweight" then this throws into serious doubt any self claimed knowledge of medicine. It's just a ludicrous statement born out of nothing but hate. Secondly, per the news:



Followed by:



Her most notable achievement came when she was 35, in a bracket made for people 35-44. If she's middle aged, so was everyone else she was competing with. You can feel free to remove that bull **** statement from your next disingenuous poo flinging. Other than that, all you're doing is stamping your feet because someone who is different won something.
Here we go again. This thread has nothing to do with hating Transpeople, its about how to handle their role in womens sporting events and fairness of competition, which trans participation greatly complicates and very likely opens up to a lack of fairness towards female athletes. That concern has nothing to do with transbigotry.

Is there such a thing as trans-baiting because its hard to see why you can't see that. And before you try and throw trans hate in my direction, don't because again, the sports thing isn't about bigotry its about fairness in an established venue. Why cant there be a uniquely trans-sports league or something?
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Old 13th April 2020, 08:11 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Here we go again. This thread has nothing to do with hating Transpeople, its about how to handle their role in womens sporting events and fairness of competition, which trans participation greatly complicates and very likely opens up to a lack of fairness towards female athletes. That concern has nothing to do with transbigotry.
I'm not going to try and explain this to you because her obvious bias is so clear in her post, if you don't get it then there's nothing more I can do for you. You forgot to throw something about the "lefties" in there, though. You're slipping a little.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Is there such a thing as trans-baiting because its hard to see why you can't see that. And before you try and throw trans hate in my direction, don't because again, the sports thing isn't about bigotry its about fairness in an established venue. Why cant there be a uniquely trans-sports league or something?
I've explained why there shouldn't be a transleague using your own "rationale", I guess, if we're calling it that.

Those who are transgender are of both genders. So if you're crying about how it's unfair for trans-women to participate in female sports, how would that not apply to a transleague? The answer? You don't care. "Those" people aren't a priority or a concern for you because they're just different. You've touted your concern over women's self-esteem, genuinely no doubt, but in the next breath seem to have no concerns about transgender self-esteem.

We get it. It's see through. You just don't want it said, so I won't speak of the thing we do not talk about. It doesn't need to be said anyway. Rolfe flew that flag up in their first post, and several in other threads previous to this one.
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Old 13th April 2020, 08:21 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not going to try and explain this to you because her obvious bias is so clear in her post, if you don't get it then there's nothing more I can do for you. You forgot to throw something about the "lefties" in there, though. You're slipping a little.



I've explained why there shouldn't be a transleague using your own "rationale", I guess, if we're calling it that.

Those who are transgender are of both genders. So if you're crying about how it's unfair for trans-women to participate in female sports, how would that not apply to a transleague? The answer? You don't care. "Those" people aren't a priority or a concern for you because they're just different. You've touted your concern over women's self-esteem, genuinely no doubt, but in the next breath seem to have no concerns about transgender self-esteem.

We get it. It's see through. You just don't want it said, so I won't speak of the thing we do not talk about. It doesn't need to be said anyway. Rolfe flew that flag up in their first post, and several in other threads previous to this one.
OR.... you just want to see hate where I don't have any, and move the conversational goal post to suit the need for outrage. You're simply wrong.
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Old 13th April 2020, 08:35 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
OR.... you just want to see hate where I don't have any, and move the conversational goal post to suit the need for outrage. You're simply wrong.
Completely side-step the issues I pointed out with your idea, claim the goal posts are moved without actually saying from where and where they were moved to, and then just saying "nuh uh, you are".

All in all a perfect post providing skepticism, logic, and top tier rationale. I tip my hat to you sir. Very well done.
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Old 13th April 2020, 08:44 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Completely side-step the issues I pointed out with your idea, claim the goal posts are moved without actually saying from where and where they were moved to, and then just saying "nuh uh, you are".

All in all a perfect post providing skepticism, logic, and top tier rationale. I tip my hat to you sir. Very well done.
Such outrage over something that was never even the original point. At this point we are done here, I know baiting when I see it.
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Old 13th April 2020, 08:57 AM   #128
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The thing I've still not seen answered is why something that *might* happen in *some* cases in a purely privatized series of sporting events warrants a law.
Especially one from a party that claims to pride itself on a non-intrusive government.

Surely capitalism is the way forward either way? Should the doom scenario portrayed by some of the posters here come to pass people could stop watching, in which case the sports will need to be re-invented, or, more likely, people just won't care, in the same way no one stopped watching the Tour de France even when the widespread use of steroids became clear.

Or do those clamoring for these laws believe that capitalism is a flawed system that needs the state to be steered into a correct way? And a government that dictates how a private life needs to be led?
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Old 13th April 2020, 02:41 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Putting aside the silly analogy. What is your criteria for a trans woman being classified as a woman and qualifying to compete against naturally born woman?
I just take people at their word.
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Old 14th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
there are no issues, you insinuated I hate transpeople and this is all about hating them. The concerns were raised regarding womens sports having adverse effect on fairness in competition.
What happened to "we're done here" following by something, something and then stomping off? Seriously though, I listed the issues with regards to your trans-only league. That you either don't understand them or don't want to address them is on you, not me. It's clear as day for anyone to see if they read this thread.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Just because I dont have a mental breakdrown of concern
Ironic that you continue to pop in here and claim how much it doesn't bother you, or how unaffected you are, and then accuse everyone else of having a "breakdrown". Seems like you're broke drowned as anyone else.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
over every single minority on earth is not quite the same as hating them. Hyperbole, melodrama and if there is such a thing, drama-baiting.
Yeah, everyone is the problem but you. This is a fine argument you've structured here. The equivalent of "I'M NOT MAD, YOU'RE MAD!" I dig it...it's not very effective, but fun to watch at least.
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:13 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
All of that, of course, is assuming that evidence eventually demonstrates that transwomen really do have a significant competitive advantage.
Only with medical intervention would this need evidence. Obviously the average unadulterated male is going to outperform the average unadulterated female, all else being equal.

Or is there something special about the natural male bodies of those who are born transwomen? Are they smaller and weaker on average than other males?
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:15 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, everyone is the problem but you. This is a fine argument you've structured here. The equivalent of "I'M NOT MAD, YOU'RE MAD!" I dig it...it's not very effective, but fun to watch at least.
I'm not mad, but you seem that way. Everyone disagreeing with you is a nazi, and oh the compassion that's lacking some folks who don't belong in a Womens sporting event. Not because discrimination, because, because women were given a league to fairly compete amongst themselves. The rest of your nonsense is just drama baiting.
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:34 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I'm not mad, but you seem that way. Everyone disagreeing with you is a nazi,
Either show where I've called anyone a nazi or retract this ********. It's untrue and an insult.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not because discrimination, because, because women were given a league to fairly compete amongst themselves. The rest of your nonsense is just drama baiting.
Repeating that doesn't make it a thing other than in your own mind. A solution was asked for, and you implied that making a "trans-league" was an answer. One I picked apart. You then went on this little tangent about how I didn't care about women's self esteem or some nonsense.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Last edited by zooterkin; 24th April 2020 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:36 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Either show where I've called anyone a nazi or retract this ********. It's untrue and an insult.



Repeating that doesn't make it a thing other than in your own mind. A solution was asked for, and you implied that making a "trans-league" was an answer. One I picked apart. You then went on this little tangent about how I didn't care about women's self esteem or some nonsense.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
I have nothing against the Trans... but they dont belong in women's sports.

Last edited by zooterkin; 24th April 2020 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 14th April 2020, 11:48 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
That's why I stated "on average". Are males larger and taller on average? Yes. Are males stronger with more lean body mass on average? Yes. Can they run faster on average? Yes. Of course there are some women that outclass some men in sports. But the best females cannot outperform the best males. This is such an obvious fact- scientifically indisputable.

There are a few exceptions, like equestrian, extreme marathons, and (very) long distance swimming. Women can compete in those areas- though they don't actually have a clear advantage. Those aren't exactly the popular sports in high school though.
Aside from sport specific, there's also also age specific advantages.

I coached age group and national level swimmers for about 25 years. I myself did a decade of it, ultimately swimming varsity and making it to Olympic trials. Boys and girls are about equal until puberty, at which point girls have an advantage over boys for awhile, then it reverses a few years later.

Here's something: at all ages, if we're talking about sports based on the school year calendar, there's an advantage at all times, at all ages, at all sexes based on birth month. In the Northern hemisphere, September births have 9 months of additional size over June births. Next big segment: kids who were held back a year dominate their peers.

The fact that nobody gives a **** about these proven, statistically significant, universal advantages but suddenly we get a state legislature dropping everything in the middle of a pandemic and passing laws really tells me that it's not about fairness but pandering to bigotry.

I had a friend who was going on and on about how, statistically, he's confident that a certain visible minority is worse drivers than average, and how it's criminal that they're not charged more on their insurance. I pointed out that he's left handed, which is a documented bump in accident rates. He just dismissed it as "well that's different, it would be unfair to charge me more because of how I was born." (as if race is not how somebody was born?)

The principle of fairness is one that lends itself to the availability heuristic. I'm reminded of confidence interval tweaking and degrees of freedom ******* that skeptics use as a red flag to identify bad studies (Texas Sharpshooter). Humans act the same way with our prejudices. People being born months apart is not weird so that advantage is meh no matter how big or unfair it is. But transgendered people, they're weird. Let's analyze them to death and hold up the differences to public scrutiny and maybe talk about it endlessly in Congress and aroud office watercoolers.
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Old 14th April 2020, 12:10 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Aside from sport specific, there's also also age specific advantages.

I coached age group and national level swimmers for about 25 years. I myself did a decade of it, ultimately swimming varsity and making it to Olympic trials. Boys and girls are about equal until puberty, at which point girls have an advantage over boys for awhile, then it reverses a few years later.

Here's something: at all ages, if we're talking about sports based on the school year calendar, there's an advantage at all times, at all ages, at all sexes based on birth month. In the Northern hemisphere, September births have 9 months of additional size over June births. Next big segment: kids who were held back a year dominate their peers.

The fact that nobody gives a **** about these proven, statistically significant, universal advantages but suddenly we get a state legislature dropping everything in the middle of a pandemic and passing laws really tells me that it's not about fairness but pandering to bigotry.

I had a friend who was going on and on about how, statistically, he's confident that a certain visible minority is worse drivers than average, and how it's criminal that they're not charged more on their insurance. I pointed out that he's left handed, which is a documented bump in accident rates. He just dismissed it as "well that's different, it would be unfair to charge me more because of how I was born." (as if race is not how somebody was born?)

The principle of fairness is one that lends itself to the availability heuristic. I'm reminded of confidence interval tweaking and degrees of freedom ******* that skeptics use as a red flag to identify bad studies (Texas Sharpshooter). Humans act the same way with our prejudices. People being born months apart is not weird so that advantage is meh no matter how big or unfair it is. But transgendered people, they're weird. Let's analyze them to death and hold up the differences to public scrutiny and maybe talk about it endlessly in Congress and aroud office watercoolers.
It is quite common to 'red shirt' boys whose birth month is nearer to the deadline (and for some maybe a whole year regardless) by holding them back in very early grades. The same is not true for females as far as I know.

This may disadvantage the girls even more....on average.

But like I said earlier, I do not think any laws will help. The market will decide what is fair given time.
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Old 14th April 2020, 12:22 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It is quite common to 'red shirt' boys whose birth month is nearer to the deadline (and for some maybe a whole year regardless) by holding them back in very early grades. The same is not true for females as far as I know.

This may disadvantage the girls even more....on average.

But like I said earlier, I do not think any laws will help. The market will decide what is fair given time.
My impression from reading the legislation and the associated lawsuits is that this is mostly targeting amateur sports, school sports teams.

I'm not seeing much of a market force involved there. Sadly, my observation is that highschool sports is all about parents living vicariously through their kids.

Pressure to formalize rules seems political rather than commercial.
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Old 14th April 2020, 12:26 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It is quite common to 'red shirt' boys whose birth month is nearer to the deadline (and for some maybe a whole year regardless) by holding them back in very early grades. The same is not true for females as far as I know.

This may disadvantage the girls even more....on average.
I'd be curious to see if Idaho does this.

Mainly I'm exploring the authenticity of the claim that this is being pursued in the interest of sports fairness. If they ignore one proven ubiquitous advantage that affects half their students in favour of locking down a hypothetical advantage that affects fewer than I can count on my fingers, I find it hard to believe their sincerity.
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Old 14th April 2020, 01:20 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
It is quite common to 'red shirt' boys whose birth month is nearer to the deadline (and for some maybe a whole year regardless) by holding them back in very early grades. The same is not true for females as far as I know.
The figure of speech, "as far as I know" raises the question of how far your knowledge extends.

How certain are you that this is quite common for boys? Do your sources about boys indicate that the same isn't true for girls? Or are they simply agnostic on that point?
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Old 14th April 2020, 01:29 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The figure of speech, "as far as I know" raises the question of how far your knowledge extends.

How certain are you that this is quite common for boys? Do your sources about boys indicate that the same isn't true for girls? Or are they simply agnostic on that point?
Well, I am a mom of a school aged child. I spent a lot of time with 'mommy' groups and looking through online forums when choosing her kindergarten. Doing this for boys was a topic, sometimes purely for the language skills and maturity of the kid (girls tend to excel more in these areas), but another benefit was sports. It was not a 'thing' for girls. i'll see if I can find something less anecdotal.
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Old 14th April 2020, 01:34 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Well, I am a mom of a school aged child. I spent a lot of time with 'mommy' groups and looking through online forums when choosing her kindergarten. Doing this for boys was a topic, sometimes purely for the language skills and maturity of the kid (girls tend to excel more in these areas), but another benefit was sports. It was not a 'thing' for girls. i'll see if I can find something less anecdotal.
I'd be grateful for that too, not just because I'm interested in possible hypocrisy in Idaho, but also because after almost three decades of coaching age group and having competed myself as a kid, I've never heard of it.

Meaning: I believe you, but it may be a hyper local phenomenon rather than 'common'.

And certainly not rolled into law at the state level at the cost of ignoring a pandemic.
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Old 14th April 2020, 01:48 PM   #142
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2011 Stanford Study (It is a PDF)

"Redshirting is twice as likely among boys as it is among girls.
Among girls‘ parents, 4.3 percent indicated they were planning to wait, compared to 7.8 percent of boys.
The patterns for greenshirting, or early entrance, are largely the reverse. Girls are more
likely than boys to start kindergarten before they are legally eligible."
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Old 14th April 2020, 02:46 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
2011 Stanford Study (It is a PDF)

"Redshirting is twice as likely among boys as it is among girls.
Among girls‘ parents, 4.3 percent indicated they were planning to wait, compared to 7.8 percent of boys.
The patterns for greenshirting, or early entrance, are largely the reverse. Girls are more
likely than boys to start kindergarten before they are legally eligible."
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were referring to a practice of adjusting kids' participation in a sport based on their birth month, as a mechanism to create fairness in the league.

The paper you have describes that yes, a portion of the population time their kids into kindergarten with an eye to given them a competitive advantage. Which I think confirms my point above that it's a real advantage, both physical and through feedback (they mention Gladwell's work, which is eh-eh, but he's on the right track). OK so far.

What I'm not seeing in the paper is any discussion about schools adapting to this by slicing up a 12 month year into more fair chunks like 6 or even 3mo, and assigning kids fairer competition pools.

This is the distinction I was trying to highlight: it's unfair, it's manageable, and nobody's doing anything because micromanaging public school sports fairness isn't that big a driver of political action.

******** on the weirdos, now *that* gets people motivated.
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Old 14th April 2020, 03:00 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you were referring to a practice of adjusting kids' participation in a sport based on their birth month, as a mechanism to create fairness in the league.

The paper you have describes that yes, a portion of the population time their kids into kindergarten with an eye to given them a competitive advantage. Which I think confirms my point above that it's a real advantage, both physical and through feedback (they mention Gladwell's work, which is eh-eh, but he's on the right track). OK so far.

What I'm not seeing in the paper is any discussion about schools adapting to this by slicing up a 12 month year into more fair chunks like 6 or even 3mo, and assigning kids fairer competition pools.

This is the distinction I was trying to highlight: it's unfair, it's manageable, and nobody's doing anything because micromanaging public school sports fairness isn't that big a driver of political action.

******** on the weirdos, now *that* gets people motivated.
I am not a parental psychologist. I only know that it is more popular to hold back boys. That was my only point. They would be more advanced in physical development on average than girls, even more so than normal, by a certain percentage of them. The percentage is small, but growing.

The reasons they do it vary.

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Old 14th April 2020, 03:15 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I am not a parental psychologist. I only know that it is more popular to hold back boys. That was my only point. They would be more advanced in physical development on average than girls, even more so than normal, by a certain percentage of them. The percentage is small, but growing.

The reasons they do it vary.
Sure... so... I'm not getting how your point addresses my post.

I was saying that there's a lot of political flurry about TG participation in sports under the guise of fairness, but no interest in other blatantly unfair conditions... my conclusion is that it's not about fairness, it's about prejudice against a population segment.
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Old 14th April 2020, 03:24 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Sure... so... I'm not getting how your point addresses my post.

I was saying that there's a lot of political flurry about TG participation in sports under the guise of fairness, but no interest in other blatantly unfair conditions... my conclusion is that it's not about fairness, it's about prejudice against a population segment.
Maybe because this is about competition between kids that cannot do anything about their different bodies? Redshirting is advantageous between the males for sports and females/males for academics.
This bill is just for sports, right?

If there are advantages between males, parents have the ability to skew the stat for their kid, but that could mean stunting other things such as academics. It has nothing to do with trans students really other than more boys would be redshirted.

I feel like some in this thread want to debate that high school boys and high school girls are exactly the same athletically. What world am I in here?

I get the 'equal treatment' argument and letting them live their lives as they are diagnosed to lessen their mental anguish, but let's not deny the obvious!

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Old 14th April 2020, 03:43 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Maybe because this is about competition between kids that cannot do anything about their different bodies? Redshirting is advantageous between the males for sports and females/males for academics.
This bill is just for sports, right?
Exactly, yes, from what I can tell, just sports.




Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
If there are advantages between males, parents have the ability to skew the stat for their kid, but that could mean stunting other things such as academics. It has nothing to do with trans students really other than more boys would be redshirted.
Maybe I'm not explaining myself well.

Have kids compete by age instead of grade, or ideally even 6 month leagues. It does not affect their academics in any way. It just makes school sports fairer, which allegedly the authors of this bill value. So why is this not law in Indiana?




Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I feel like some in this thread want to debate that high school boys and high school girls are exactly the same athletically. What world am I in here?

I get the 'equal treatment' argument and letting them live their lives as they are diagnosed to lessen their mental anguish, but let's not deny the obvious!
No denial about there being a difference between boys and girls' athletic abilities in some sports.

What I'm exploring is sincerity in the explanation for these bills being 'fairness'. There are other things that are 'unfair' that are hugely pervasive and easy to fix but not on the radar of people who swear they're all about making sports more fair. I brought up age and you posted a paper showing it's a real and growing problem. Something like 4% of boys?

OK, there's a million ish students in indiana, half of them boys, 4% of them are unfairly jumping in a year late and dominating sports. That's 20k kids with an unfair advantage, which is a conservative estimate because it ignores the September-June 9mo stretch within a year as well. But no state assembly debates, right?

Meanwhile how many TG M-F can there possibly be in that state's school system? Five? Ten? And they want to spend time on that instead of working on a plan to keep the other million students from dying of covid19. Fairness, my ass.
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Old 15th April 2020, 02:52 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Only with medical intervention would this need evidence. Obviously the average unadulterated male is going to outperform the average unadulterated female, all else being equal.

Or is there something special about the natural male bodies of those who are born transwomen? Are they smaller and weaker on average than other males?
Obviously I'm talking about people who have transitioned.
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Old 15th April 2020, 04:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My impression from reading the legislation and the associated lawsuits is that this is mostly targeting amateur sports, school sports teams.

I'm not seeing much of a market force involved there. Sadly, my observation is that highschool sports is all about parents living vicariously through their kids.

Pressure to formalize rules seems political rather than commercial.
often very true
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Old 15th April 2020, 04:36 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Obviously I'm talking about people who have transitioned.
That doesnt answer their question.
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Old 15th April 2020, 04:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
OK, there's a million ish students in indiana, half of them boys, 4% of them are unfairly jumping in a year late and dominating sports. That's 20k kids with an unfair advantage, which is a conservative estimate because it ignores the September-June 9mo stretch within a year as well. But no state assembly debates, right
There are, of course, countless ways a given kid can outperform other kids. Some have prior experience, some have parents helping them practice, some are bigger, faster, or stronger by nature, some just happen to be naturals. Some have conditions that help them, like a hypermobile gymnast or an autistic savant kid in the chess club. Yet as you say, there's no cries of "no fair" from the reactionaries.

Wonder why.

(Now I predict deflections to the nature of "theres a differenve between being strong and having an operation!!!!!")
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:31 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
There are, of course, countless ways a given kid can outperform other kids. Some have prior experience, some have parents helping them practice, some are bigger, faster, or stronger by nature, some just happen to be naturals. Some have conditions that help them, like a hypermobile gymnast or an autistic savant kid in the chess club. Yet as you say, there's no cries of "no fair" from the reactionaries.

Wonder why.

(Now I predict deflections to the nature of "theres a differenve between being strong and having an operation!!!!!")
And even then... When I was national level, the university paid for me to get laser eye surgery, which improved my performance. Completely acceptable within the rules.

It sure gives an advantage in field sports. Does Indiana have laws about corrective eye surgery disqualifying highschool football players, I wonder? I mean, since they're so concerned about fairness.
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Old 18th April 2020, 05:23 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Sadly, my observation is that highschool sports is all about parents living vicariously through their kids.
Then sadly, your observations are either wrong or applied to a very small, very limited number of parents.

My dad played both Soccer (Athenian League) and Cricket (County Championship) to an above average level in England in the 1930s. When I went to school, I chose to play Rugby and Softball. I was never, ever, at any time, pressured to play the sports my Dad played, never ever pressed to achieve the equivalent levels he did. When things went well for me, he celebrated with me, when they didn't he commiserated with me. He was very often there in support but never imposing, never berating, never demanding.

When it became my turn, my kids were allowed to choose what, if anything they participated in. One daughter wanted to ride horses in show jumping and eventing, the other was a snowboarder. I supported them unconditionally without any pressure to achieve.

I also took up rugby refereeing as a young adult, and carried that on for over 20 years. In all that time, refereeing 50+ matches per year, the bulk of them schoolboy rugby, I very rarely encountered the kinds of parents you are talking about.

My observation over a lifetime of participating in, watching and officiating in high school sport, is that parents who live vicariously through their kids are a very rare exception; a tiny minority of parents.
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Old 20th April 2020, 04:18 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Then sadly, your observations are either wrong or applied to a very small, very limited number of parents.

My dad played both Soccer (Athenian League) and Cricket (County Championship) to an above average level in England in the 1930s. When I went to school, I chose to play Rugby and Softball. I was never, ever, at any time, pressured to play the sports my Dad played, never ever pressed to achieve the equivalent levels he did. When things went well for me, he celebrated with me, when they didn't he commiserated with me. He was very often there in support but never imposing, never berating, never demanding.

When it became my turn, my kids were allowed to choose what, if anything they participated in. One daughter wanted to ride horses in show jumping and eventing, the other was a snowboarder. I supported them unconditionally without any pressure to achieve.

I also took up rugby refereeing as a young adult, and carried that on for over 20 years. In all that time, refereeing 50+ matches per year, the bulk of them schoolboy rugby, I very rarely encountered the kinds of parents you are talking about.

My observation over a lifetime of participating in, watching and officiating in high school sport, is that parents who live vicariously through their kids are a very rare exception; a tiny minority of parents.
Maybe New Zealand doesnt reflect the majority of things.
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Old 20th April 2020, 05:48 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Maybe New Zealand doesnt reflect the majority of things.
Oh, I get it - 'merica's speshul!
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Old 20th April 2020, 05:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, I get it - 'merica's speshul!
Leader Trump will hear of this outrage!
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Old 20th April 2020, 06:34 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
And even then... When I was national level, the university paid for me to get laser eye surgery, which improved my performance. Completely acceptable within the rules.

It sure gives an advantage in field sports. Does Indiana have laws about corrective eye surgery disqualifying highschool football players, I wonder? I mean, since they're so concerned about fairness.
Back when PED complaints were all the rage in baseball, a friend of mine noted that the most commonly used PED was ibuprofen.

It helped players perform when they would have otherwise been too sore to play.
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Old 22nd April 2020, 10:12 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, I get it - 'merica's speshul!
If being full of lunatics is special, then yes. He was specific to high school sport which in the U.S. can be its own little slice of hell as its local importance is hard to exaggerate.

It raises the stakes. We aren't talking about a parent's ego or lost dreams.... this is a situation where it can affect how other people in the community treat them.
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Old 22nd April 2020, 11:45 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
If being full of lunatics is special, then yes. He was specific to high school sport which in the U.S. can be its own little slice of hell as its local importance is hard to exaggerate.

It raises the stakes. We aren't talking about a parent's ego or lost dreams.... this is a situation where it can affect how other people in the community treat them.
I'm not sure which side you're referring to here, but if there's one group of people that can't understand at all how the community will treat you different because you aren't living up to their expectations, it's certainly transgender individuals. They go through everyday like normal. That's why transgender individuals, and people who play sports have the same suicide rates.
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Old 22nd April 2020, 11:53 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not sure which side you're referring to here, but if there's one group of people that can't understand at all how the community will treat you different because you aren't living up to their expectations, it's certainly transgender individuals. They go through everyday like normal. That's why transgender individuals, and people who play sports have the same suicide rates.
Normal is subjective and isn't the point. The point is specific to Womens Sports, and unfair advantage taints that sport. Its no different than the South African sprinter who had the prosthetic leg. Should he be allowed in the special olympics if he can medal at the regular olympics? No. Enough with the Sympathy ploying. Give them their own league if thats essential.
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