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Old 24th April 2020, 07:12 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not sure which side you're referring to here, but if there's one group of people that can't understand at all how the community will treat you different because you aren't living up to their expectations, it's certainly transgender individuals. They go through everyday like normal. That's why transgender individuals, and people who play sports have the same suicide rates.
There is the difference between sport as a mainly participatory experience and as a cultural/social institution. The latter is where most of this toxicity comes in.

It's locally specific. My point was that in pockets of the US this toxicity as it comes to high school sports is off the charts.

Nobody worth speaking of would object to the participation itself.

However, when it comes to the absurd fear that some highschool in the sticks will put wigs on their male basketball players and establish a women's basketball dynasty and win the state title ten years in a row a lot of people who profess to be all for transgender rights think that this is a Serious Issue That Needs Addressed because the "real" girls teams don't have a chance, the record books will get screwed up, etc.

I mean, this is the sort of natural last gasp of bigotry. Concerns are expressed about, even though a marginalized group has a right to equal treatment, you know, there is this practical implication that we can dream up to not treat them fully equally.

MLK's white moderate, just in a different context.
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Old 24th April 2020, 07:18 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There is the difference between sport as a mainly participatory experience and as a cultural/social institution. The latter is where most of this toxicity comes in.

It's locally specific. My point was that in pockets of the US this toxicity as it comes to high school sports is off the charts.

Nobody worth speaking of would object to the participation itself.

However, when it comes to the absurd fear that some highschool in the sticks will put wigs on their male basketball players and establish a women's basketball dynasty and win the state title ten years in a row a lot of people who profess to be all for transgender rights think that this is a Serious Issue That Needs Addressed because the "real" girls teams don't have a chance, the record books will get screwed up, etc.

I mean, this is the sort of natural last gasp of bigotry. Concerns are expressed about, even though a marginalized group has a right to equal treatment, you know, there is this practical implication that we can dream up to not treat them fully equally.

MLK's white moderate, just in a different context.
The heart of the law, one of them anyway.... is whether they (The trans) should compete in womens sports; a sports league specifically designated to women for fair competition. The question is whether a transperson is a women in that specific context.

Somewhere in this thread it was correctly pointed out that you can't actually physically change your birth gender, genetics are what they are. Transpeople born male do not below in Womens sports and yes maybe I am beating a dead horse, but just PLague declares themselves right thinking otherwise doesn't make their opinion fact. It's isn't. It's an attempt to drag the issue in a different direction under the guise of things similar to "Wont someone please think of the children". It's not so black and white.
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Old 24th April 2020, 07:57 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The heart of the law, one of them anyway.... is whether they (The trans) should compete in womens sports; a sports league specifically designated to women for fair competition. The question is whether a transperson is a women in that specific context.

Somewhere in this thread it was correctly pointed out that you can't actually physically change your birth gender, genetics are what they are. Transpeople born male do not below in Womens sports and yes maybe I am beating a dead horse, but just PLague declares themselves right thinking otherwise doesn't make their opinion fact. It's isn't. It's an attempt to drag the issue in a different direction under the guise of things similar to "Wont someone please think of the children". It's not so black and white.
It is black and white.they are women, end of story.
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:03 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It's an attempt to drag the issue in a different direction under the guise of things similar to "Wont someone please think of the children".
Yes, this is exactly what those who make transgender participation in organized sport are doing.

Using the idea of integrity of women's sport as cover for their reluctance/hostility towards accepting transgender people.

"It is really about ethics in gaming journalism women's sports."
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:23 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is black and white.they are women, end of story.
Agree to disagree, they didnt start that way and the basis of competition in a womens league is the other point in the equation so no, you are mistaken.
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:25 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Yes, this is exactly what those who make transgender participation in organized sport are doing.

Using the idea of integrity of women's sport as cover for their reluctance/hostility towards accepting transgender people.

"It is really about ethics in gaming journalism women's sports."
Spare me, I have no reluctance or hatred towards the transgendered but womens sports are for women, and a former male is unfair competition. The bleeding hearts among you just dont seem able to handle that some see it through a different lense. I'm confident I'll be called a bigot within five posts since thats usually the response, actually or inferred..
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:36 AM   #167
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The idea of segmenting sports by 'Women" and "Men" is mentally distressing to the gender-queer athletes. They do not want any labels.

This seems to be at odds with the MtF transpersons who want that gender affirmation.

There might be a group I am missing. Gender fluid maybe?

How do you really make it fair to ALL?
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:55 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
The idea of segmenting sports by 'Women" and "Men" is mentally distressing to the gender-queer athletes. They do not want any labels.

This seems to be at odds with the MtF transpersons who want that gender affirmation.

There might be a group I am missing. Gender fluid maybe?

How do you really make it fair to ALL?
You forgot that Participation in a sport for anyone is a luxury as opposed to a nessecity. What the "Think of the Children" crowd are missing is that in being all aghast over the issue they arent allowing for any solution fair for anyone because they're too busy being aghast. Tunnel vision isnt a solution oddly enough.
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Old 24th April 2020, 08:58 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You forgot that Participation in a sport for anyone is a luxury as opposed to a nessecity. What the "Think of the Children" crowd are missing is that in being all aghast over the issue they arent allowing for any solution fair for anyone because they're too busy being aghast. Tunnel vision isnt a solution oddly enough.
The solution is to categorize sports on the grounds of physical sex and not gender identity. That should be obvious, and if there's anyone wasting the government's time here it's the selfish douchebags who are using their male advantage to muscle in on women's sports.
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:01 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Spare me, I have no reluctance or hatred towards the transgendered but womens sports are for women, and a former male is unfair competition. The bleeding hearts among you just dont seem able to handle that some see it through a different lense. I'm confident I'll be called a bigot within five posts since thats usually the response, actually or inferred..
So no hatred towards transgender women except that their right to identify is subject to the theoretical integrity of athletic events.

Gotcha.
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:03 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The solution is to categorize sports on the grounds of physical sex and not gender identity. That should be obvious, and if there's anyone wasting the government's time here it's the selfish douchebags who are using their male advantage to muscle in on women's sports.
Maybe a weight class system is more honest the. But..... man bashing doesn't really address the expressed needs of the transgendered either. If finding a common solution is the goal. villification is just one more obstacle. Being adversarial is not a solution.
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:33 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The solution is to categorize sports on the grounds of physical sex and not gender identity. That should be obvious, and if there's anyone wasting the government's time here it's the selfish douchebags who are using their male advantage to muscle in on women's sports.
If there are selfish douchbags disingenuously claiming a gender identity to gain an advantage (rather than to make what they see as a clever point which is what is really going on) then we can worry about it.

If they get a material advantage from it this would be fraud. They can be sophomoric all they want and claim a right to change gender identification every twenty minutes or whatever, but that thin BS wouldn't hold up in court.
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:46 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
However, when it comes to the absurd fear that some highschool in the sticks will put wigs on their male basketball players and establish a women's basketball dynasty and win the state title ten years in a row a lot of people who profess to be all for transgender rights think that this is a Serious Issue That Needs Addressed because the "real" girls teams don't have a chance, the record books will get screwed up, etc.
I understand the point you're driving at here, but to me the actual athletes wouldn't do that. Why would they? There's absolutely no upside for a bunch of men in wigs to win a woman's state championship. I know we're not at odds with our positions, I just wanted to point that out. If their goal is to be recognized, scouted, and signed then this wouldn't just be about winning some ******* high school sports. I like to think athletes compete to go beyond with things like scholarships, or possibly professional experiences. What would they say to a college scout?
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:28 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
In the case of TG athletes in particular, the transition process diminishes their advantage a lot if not entirely, which is why I find the prohibitions saying they're based on unfair advantage are suspicious.
Hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgeries don't change skeletal differences or differences in musculature. They don't decrease the innate difference in upper body strength and stamina that genetic males have over genetic females. The vast majority of the differences in performance between male and female sports are directly due to physical differences between males and females of the human species which are not affected by transition.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgeries don't change skeletal differences or differences in musculature. They don't decrease the innate difference in upper body strength and stamina that genetic males have over genetic females. The vast majority of the differences in performance between male and female sports are directly due to physical differences between males and females of the human species which are not affected by transition.
Ok, so then what? I mean, you haven't actually supported these claims, but even if we take them at your word. Then what? What do we do with the transgender athletes? I've asked this now a few times, and have heard "give them their own league", but that isn't a viable option because not all transgender athletes are the same gender.

So I'll ask you like I've asked the others. We all understand that you guys are saying "they" are not "normal" and so shouldn't be allowed to participate in, specifically, female sports. What other options are there?
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:42 AM   #176
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And yet, if they take puberty-blocking drugs until they're old enough to surgically and hormonally transition, almost all of those "male advantages" disappear.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:42 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But that's not the situation here. The situation is excluding you from having a job, renting a home, and not being beaten up and/or murdered because someone else wants to compete in children's athletic competitions. The risk of someone unfairly beating other children in an athletic contest is so dreadful we require to dictate to everyone that their sex changes can never be officially recognized. Do you not compete in athletics at all, Ms X? Too bad, we still need to make sure your birth certificate forever reads the wrong sex because it's possible that some other person might one day compete in a contest and gain --gasp!-- an unfair advantage! Why, Tiffani-Amber might not get that gold ribbon! I'm sure you don't mind exposing yourself to a lifetime of literally life-threatening discrimination to avert that possibility!
What? How do you get from "you've got the physical structure and advantages of a biological male, so you can't compete against biological females" to "you're not allowed to have a job or rent a home and you get beat up & murdered"? There seem to be a lot of missing steps in there.

And... quibble here... gender is not sex. This is a point that gets conflated when it's advantageous and pounded like a tambourine when it's not. Gender, under current parlance and understanding, is a set of behaviors and an internal identity that has nothing at all to do with biological and genetic characteristics. Sex has to do with reproductive characteristics, biological and genetic attributes. Sex is immutable - even in those cases where a genetic transcription error occurs and someone ends up being XXX or hermaphroditic, that element of their physical being is not changeable. The only thing changeable is their presentation. And even then, a large part of it is visual only. A man-made penis does not function like a natural penis, it does not produce semen, the person does not have sperm, and doesn't have a prostate. Man-made breasts are incapable of producing milk. Man-made vaginas can be fun, but they do not include a cervix or a g-spot, and a transwoman cannot get pregnant. A considerable amount of medicine is based on sex, not on gender. At no point does a transman need a prostate exam. At no point does a transwoman need to be checked for uterine fibroids or endometriosis.

So if we're going to talk about gender rights, let's make sure we're talking about GENDER rights, and not conflating that with sex.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:44 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
So no hatred towards transgender women except that their right to identify is subject to the theoretical integrity of athletic events.

Gotcha.
See? Within 5 posts.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:54 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I have seen as many women beat men in several sports as frequently as I will see a transgender student dominate all of the records.
I would really like to see some examples of this, if you don't mind? There are extraordinarily few physical competitions where a biological female is better than a biological male in anything more than an incredibly rare event. Sure, it could happen that Jane, born female, happens to be a biological freak and can beat out the majority of male competitors in a sport... but I just can't think of any at the moment.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I think there's an assumption that because he was male, and is now playing sports he will automatically dominate. Women athletes are just as outstanding as men, even in the same sports. This idea is built on a false premise. Being male in sports is not always an advantage.
Why is it a false premise? Do you believe that on average, males and females have equivalent sports skills? Do you believe that if sex-based segregation of sports were abolished, there would be just as many female pro-athletes as there are male?

For consideration, I would say that an exceptional female athlete, in nearly all sports, is on par with at best a mediocre male athlete in that same sport. That would imply that a transwoman athlete who is middling at best stands a good chance to dominate when placed in a group of genetic females.

And while I don't personally have any interest in most sports, I do at least recognize that women enjoy competition, and enjoy reasonable competition. Additionally, I recognize that women's sports scholarships are a big deal for the women seeking them, and often their avenue into higher education. Those are two things that get glossed over in this kind of a discussion.

At least acknowledge that there is a legitimate conflict of goals here. I want opportunities and equity for women. I also want quality and fair treatment of transpeople. This is a situation where those two goals of mine are in conflict.

I'll support transrights and objectives in almost every circumstance, but I balk at providing advantages to transwomen where such an advantage removes opportunities and equity for ciswomen. I'm not willing to sacrifice the well-being of ciswomen in order to provide advantages to transwomen.

We need to come up with something that doesn't disadvantage anyone.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:55 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What? How do you get from "you've got the physical structure and advantages of a biological male, so you can't compete against biological females" to "you're not allowed to have a job or rent a home and you get beat up & murdered"? There seem to be a lot of missing steps in there.
At this point I have to ask, did you actually read the article? Did you read any of the excerpts in the law?

Hint: This isn't specifically about athletes. That's just the thin veil they placed about it.

The rest is nothing other than quibbling. They're called "transgender". If you want to rail against that then do it against the medical community. It has no relevance here as it's pretty clear what we're all talking about. This clarification doesn't help or change anything whatsoever. Even a little bit.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:58 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Being a man doesn't inherently make you faster... than women.
On average, it most definitely DOES make men faster and stronger than women. There might be some overlap between the very strongest and fastest women and the very weakest and slowest men. But there is definitely a significant and material difference on average.

It's not just penises and boobs here. Men and women have different skeletal formations. We have different muscle attachment points, and different muscle density.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:01 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I would really like to see some examples of this, if you don't mind? There are extraordinarily few physical competitions where a biological female is better than a biological male in anything more than an incredibly rare event. Sure, it could happen that Jane, born female, happens to be a biological freak and can beat out the majority of male competitors in a sport... but I just can't think of any at the moment.
Ok, lets go tit for tat. You show me even 1 situation of a transgender athlete dominating all of the records in female sports at a high school level, and I'll provide you one of a woman beating men (I didn't say the best of the men, or even that they won the competition. Just that they beat men) in a sport.

Let me know when you're ready.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:01 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, no one here is comparing the best to the best. We're talking about high school athletes, but again. I digress.
And average high school genetically male athlete will be stronger, leaner, faster, and have more stamina than an average high school genetically female athlete.

Prior to puberty, there are very minor differences that generally have no material impact on athleticism and competition. But once puberty begins, those differences are significant. Puberty frequently starts in late elementary school and early middle school. By the time we get to high school, both males and females have reached sexual maturity.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:03 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And average high school genetically male athlete will be stronger, leaner, faster, and have more stamina than an average high school genetically female athlete.

Prior to puberty, there are very minor differences that generally have no material impact on athleticism and competition. But once puberty begins, those differences are significant. Puberty frequently starts in late elementary school and early middle school. By the time we get to high school, both males and females have reached sexual maturity.
Great, awesome, perfect. Now all you have to do is show me where I said "on average". You keep using that word when I didn't.

I don't mind you keep railing on this point. Knock yourself out, but at least quit implying that I said it. I said it doesn't make them inherently faster. I didn't say it made them "on average" faster. So please stop implying I did. Thanks in advance.

ETA: You seem to be missing the fact that these athletes will generally be taking hormonal medication previous to puberty which would change the effects puberty has their bodies.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:07 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The best way is to allow those that know they are trans to go through puberty as their target gender, Until puberty girls and boys bodies are pretty close in muscle and skeletal structures. The big changes happen at puberty. If a trans person can go through a "natural" puberty as their target gender then their skeletal and muscular structure will be the same as their cis counterparts and they won't have advantages.
You know that doesn't happen, right? A genetic female is never going to experience a male puberty. A genetic male is never going to experience a female puberty. At best, you can influence some small variances via hormones. You can create a situation where a genetic male develops breasts by suppressing testosterone and increasing estrogen. You can slow the growth of facial hair with some drugs - but that facial hair will still grow, it's just finer and slower. Similarly, you can create a situation where a genetic female stays leaner and gains a bit more muscle mass and avoids growing breasts by suppressing estrogen and increasing testosterone.

But a genetic male will never experience a period and their hips will never widen. A genetic female will never experience a nocturnal emission and their balls will never drop.

Please, don't conflate sex and gender.


ETA: Also, I think it's probably worth giving some thought to when puberty begins. For most females, puberty begins between 11 and 12. For males, it's about a year later. While I'm fully 100% supportive of an informed and knowledgeable adult making a decision about which gender to identify and present as, I'm a bit more leery of letting a 12 year old make that decision.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:13 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If women's sports ever become dominated by trans athletes to the exclusion of cissexual athletes, then perhaps there will be some evidence that this is actually a problem that needs fixing.
What about when trans athletes win women's sports scholarships?
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:28 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Sadly, my observation is that highschool sports is all about parents living vicariously through their kids.
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I myself did a decade of it, ultimately swimming varsity and making it to Olympic trials.
Was your decade of competition about your parents living vicariously through you?
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:32 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Great, awesome, perfect. Now all you have to do is show me where I said "on average". You keep using that word when I didn't.

I don't mind you keep railing on this point. Knock yourself out, but at least quit implying that I said it. I said it doesn't make them inherently faster. I didn't say it made them "on average" faster. So please stop implying I did. Thanks in advance.
Apologies for jumping in here...

So when you say it 'doesn't make them inherently faster', you aren't talking about a group of individuals born male? And if you are talking about a group, is there something about this particular group of natal males that makes them NOT on average faster and stronger than average females?

These kids are not required to have any medical interventions and the vast majority of them do not.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:32 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
What I'm not seeing in the paper is any discussion about schools adapting to this by slicing up a 12 month year into more fair chunks like 6 or even 3mo, and assigning kids fairer competition pools.
I generally agree with your position that age is a bigger discriminator for kids prior to puberty, and I'll even grant you the first couple of years of puberty. But beyond about age 16, the difference due to biological sex dwarfs the difference due to age. By the time you're looking at high school seniors (where college scholarships are on the line) and college students (where professional play is on the line), differences in age across a 12-month spectrum are almost entirely moot and are subsumed by physical differences.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:35 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm not sure which side you're referring to here, but if there's one group of people that can't understand at all how the community will treat you different because you aren't living up to their expectations, it's certainly transgender individuals. They go through everyday like normal. That's why transgender individuals, and people who play sports have the same suicide rates.
Women would never be able to understand that?
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:36 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Was your decade of competition about your parents living vicariously through you?
I was never in highschool sports. Our school did not have a swim team. (most don't)



My opinion about motivation was formed through almost 30 years in Swim Canada, where we examined recruitment and abandonment. The 80s and 90s saw participation in swimming decline dramatically, so motivation was a focus of interest.

We worked with other sporting organizations. Results did vary by sport, as you can expect. Team sports seemed to be more vulnerable to parental pressure than individual sports, and there was a distinction between school vs independent.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:37 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Women would never be able to understand that?
You're all about averages. Would you say the average transgender individual faces more or less scrutiny than the average female?
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:38 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Yes, this is exactly what those who make transgender participation in organized sport are doing.

Using the idea of integrity of women's sport as cover for their reluctance/hostility towards accepting transgender people.

"It is really about ethics in gaming journalism women's sports."
Yeah! Screw women, they already have too many advantages! How dare those uppity women think they shouldn't have their scholarships and professional opportunities put at risk by genetic males? What are they thinking?

[/sarcasm]
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:40 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yeah! Screw women, they already have too many advantages! How dare those uppity women think they shouldn't have their scholarships and professional opportunities put at risk by genetic males? What are they thinking?

[/sarcasm]
Again, find one example of a transathlete getting a scholarship over a cisgender athlete.

Obviously what you're saying is a strawman since nothing even close to that was claimed in what you quoted.

You said you want transgender rights, but you also want women's rights. Yet, you seem extremely vocal in ONLY supporting women's rights. I've asked you before and I'll ask you again. What is your solution to the problem?
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:41 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
The solution is to categorize sports on the grounds of physical sex and not gender identity. That should be obvious, and if there's anyone wasting the government's time here it's the selfish douchebags who are using their male advantage to muscle in on women's sports.
When the original categorization was made, there was no colloquial difference between sex and gender. At that time, however, calling an apparent female human "a female" instead of "a woman" was considered offensive, because it reduced her to her sexual characteristics in the same way we refer to livestock.

Now, the term "woman" has developed a very different mean, which has nothing to do with biology, nor with the lived experience of a person. It has to do with an internal identity and a desire to be treated in conformity with one socially-defined gender role or another.

It confuses things.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:41 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I generally agree with your position that age is a bigger discriminator for kids prior to puberty, and I'll even grant you the first couple of years of puberty. But beyond about age 16, the difference due to biological sex dwarfs the difference due to age. By the time you're looking at high school seniors (where college scholarships are on the line) and college students (where professional play is on the line), differences in age across a 12-month spectrum are almost entirely moot and are subsumed by physical differences.
Sure. So?

My point was that the established unfairness has never been addressed this way, because fairness is not a strong motivator for these political shenanigans.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:44 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I understand the point you're driving at here, but to me the actual athletes wouldn't do that. Why would they? There's absolutely no upside for a bunch of men in wigs to win a woman's state championship. I know we're not at odds with our positions, I just wanted to point that out. If their goal is to be recognized, scouted, and signed then this wouldn't just be about winning some ******* high school sports. I like to think athletes compete to go beyond with things like scholarships, or possibly professional experiences. What would they say to a college scout?
I'm confused. You say there's no upside... then you go on to list the upsides - scholarships and professional experiences.

You might "like to think" that such things as scholarships and professional opportunities aren't important to "real athletes"... but I'm not really sure how your desired belief aligns with reality.
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:56 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, so then what? I mean, you haven't actually supported these claims, but even if we take them at your word. Then what? What do we do with the transgender athletes? I've asked this now a few times, and have heard "give them their own league", but that isn't a viable option because not all transgender athletes are the same gender.
Men's competitive league, Women's competitive league, Open league.

Men will dominate the Men's league, Women will dominate the Women's league, and biological males will dominate the Open league, but everyone will be able to participate competitively in some fashion or other.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We all understand that you guys are saying "they" are not "normal" ...
:rofl: This is kind of fun. You've made a false implicit assumption here, but you've also made a true statement whether you want to admit it or not.

I fully support trans rights. I don't think they should be discriminated against, and I think that people should treat them and interact with them in as whatever gender they identify as. It harms nobody. You, however, have assumed that I must have some bigoted underlying motivation for my view with respect to sports. That assumption is false.

My view on this is based on a conflict of goals: equity for women (read biological females if you prefer) and equity for transgendered people. In this case, allowing transwomen to compete against ciswomen introduces a risk to ciswomen's opportunities, and re-introduces a material disadvantage that we tried to correct for in the past. It is undoing progress made for ciswomen. If I'm being blunt, and using language that cuts to the heart of it even though it's not a true representation of my views: It disadvantages women in order to extend more opportunities to men.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With respect to your unintentionally true statement... No, actually, transgendered people are not normal. They are significant statistical and behavioral outliers on the spectrum of possible human characteristics. There's no arguing this fact.

On the other hand, that does not imply that they are worthy of ostracism or mistreatment in any way at all - they should receive the same respect and reasonable treatment that we extend to any other human being.

It's also worth noting that I myself have a disorder that affects my life in a not-insignificant way. I am not normal. I don't pretend that I'm normal, and I don't insist that others should pretend that my condition bears any remote resemblance to normal. I do, however, insist that I be treated with respect and dignity regardless of my particular outlier condition.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:03 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men's competitive league, Women's competitive league, Open league.

Men will dominate the Men's league, Women will dominate the Women's league, and biological males will dominate the Open league, but everyone will be able to participate competitively in some fashion or other.


:rofl: This is kind of fun. You've made a false implicit assumption here, but you've also made a true statement whether you want to admit it or not.

I fully support trans rights. I don't think they should be discriminated against, and I think that people should treat them and interact with them in as whatever gender they identify as. It harms nobody. You, however, have assumed that I must have some bigoted underlying motivation for my view with respect to sports. That assumption is false.

My view on this is based on a conflict of goals: equity for women (read biological females if you prefer) and equity for transgendered people. In this case, allowing transwomen to compete against ciswomen introduces a risk to ciswomen's opportunities, and re-introduces a material disadvantage that we tried to correct for in the past. It is undoing progress made for ciswomen. If I'm being blunt, and using language that cuts to the heart of it even though it's not a true representation of my views: It disadvantages women in order to extend more opportunities to men.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With respect to your unintentionally true statement... No, actually, transgendered people are not normal. They are significant statistical and behavioral outliers on the spectrum of possible human characteristics. There's no arguing this fact.

On the other hand, that does not imply that they are worthy of ostracism or mistreatment in any way at all - they should receive the same respect and reasonable treatment that we extend to any other human being.

It's also worth noting that I myself have a disorder that affects my life in a not-insignificant way. I am not normal. I don't pretend that I'm normal, and I don't insist that others should pretend that my condition bears any remote resemblance to normal. I do, however, insist that I be treated with respect and dignity regardless of my particular outlier condition.
And that completes my interaction with this conversation because you summed it up perfectly. Women can compete against women, men against men, but transgender athletes have to be in an "open" league.

Thank you for proving my point.

ETA: I just wanted to point out the irony of you openly stating that transgender females would dominate an open league, which you're ok with as long as it doesn't affect women's sports. It can effect transgender men, and you're totally fine with that, but stay away from the "normals" or else it's a problem. The lack of logic is so blatant I just can't seem to get over it.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:05 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
And yet, if they take puberty-blocking drugs until they're old enough to surgically and hormonally transition, almost all of those "male advantages" disappear.
I know this is an option that's been discussed. I'm not a doctor, and certainly don't specialize in puberty. But I do end up with some questions.

My god-daughter has Kallmann Syndrome. Due to a genetic glitch, she is unable to enter puberty naturally. For all intents and purposes, her natural state is the one being proposed for children who suspect they may be transgender.

As I understand the discussions with her specialist, there are significant problems with her not entering puberty. On the purely physical side of things, there are long-term risks to puberty not occurring, including bone density issues, increased risk of several illnesses, etc. But there are also cognitive development problems - puberty not only changes the body, it changes the brain too. There's a significant step in mental maturity, world-view, and interpersonal interaction that occurs as a direct result of puberty. Delaying puberty keeps that individual in a state of childhood until they enter puberty. In addition to that, there's also a mental health concern.
Even though my goddaughter began hormone therapy to prompt puberty, she was delayed well beyond her peers (she didn't begin puberty until age 15). This caused her a lot of discomfort at school because her peers did not treat her as if she were a peer, they treated her like a much younger child. She was visibly different, with the appearance of a very tall 11 year old. It cause a lot of social anxiety, and I understand that this is very common in children who have conditions that delay or prohibit the onset of puberty.

I'm not a doctor. It's possible that the trade off is worth it. IT's possible that a 12 year old who is very certain they are transgendered will feel less anxiety and risk by remaining in suspended childhood until they are a chronological adult. I certainly don't know enough to make that call.

But I do know enough to have some reservations about delayed puberty being "the answer".
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