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Old 24th April 2020, 12:08 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The rest is nothing other than quibbling. They're called "transgender". If you want to rail against that then do it against the medical community. It has no relevance here as it's pretty clear what we're all talking about. This clarification doesn't help or change anything whatsoever. Even a little bit.
I have no desire to rail against transgender persons. I have every desire to increase equity and opportunity for everyone.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:12 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have no desire to rail against transgender persons. I have every desire to increase equity and opportunity for everyone.
Just not if they want to play in either men's or women's sports. Then you're against it because "they" should play in their own league. Where it's ok for men transitioning to women to have an upperhand against women transitioning to men. Then you're perfectly ok with it.
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Old 24th April 2020, 12:13 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have no desire to rail against transgender persons. I have every desire to increase equity and opportunity for everyone.
A weight class system is the fairest method if they don't get their own league. Others in the thread can't see beyond the victim complex they want to force on the rest of the conversation when its abundantly clear that many dont see it through that lense.
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Old 24th April 2020, 01:44 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, lets go tit for tat. You show me even 1 situation of a transgender athlete dominating all of the records in female sports at a high school level, and I'll provide you one of a woman beating men (I didn't say the best of the men, or even that they won the competition. Just that they beat men) in a sport.

Let me know when you're ready.
How does this seem like a reasonable comparison to you?

You're asking me to provide you an example of a transwoman dominating a high school female sport event. I can do that.

But what you're offering in return is an example of some woman somewhere beating some man?

The former is a comparison of a transwoman of unspecified skill and athleticism dominating over ciswomen who are definitely skilled and athletic. The latter allows for you to provide an exceptionally skilled woman beating a mediocre or completely unskilled man. Those aren't reasonable comparisons. Find me an example of a transman dominating in a male sport. Hell, I'll settle for a transman being a regular contender in a male sport.

For the former... part of the reason that the suit in CT got filed is 1) CT did not require any testosterone suppression in order for transgirls to compete in girls sports and 2) between them, Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller amassed 15 titles that had previously been held by nine different girls throughout the state. For additional consideration, Andraya dominated the 100 and 200 meter dashes when she was 15 years old, competing against girls who were 17 and 18. That seems pretty dominant to me.
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Old 24th April 2020, 01:48 PM   #205
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Also, I found a good, but very long article that touches on a lot of what I see as the problem with this argument. The author does a very good job of focusing on the actual scientific and biological differences, and some of the arguments that get put forth. The author's focus is on elite sports, and has only one reference to lower-level competitions:

Quote:
We should not care only if they’re on Olympic and World Champion podiums. The impact is likely to be much larger at the levels below that, where 99% of sport is played. That’s where a 5% drop in performance may have even more meaningful impacts, because it’s “the steep part of the curve”, where a mediocre biological male might leap into representative level, winning local events, or places on teams that compete at the next level up. Then it all comes down to the philosophy of how people value sport at participation and representative level, rather than elite levels, and it gets very messy indeed.
Article: On Transgender athletes and performance advantages
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Old 24th April 2020, 01:51 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Great, awesome, perfect. Now all you have to do is show me where I said "on average". You keep using that word when I didn't.
You specified not comparing best to best. I took on average to be your intent. If that wasn't your intent, please specify what your comparison is intended to be.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
ETA: You seem to be missing the fact that these athletes will generally be taking hormonal medication previous to puberty which would change the effects puberty has their bodies.
You didn't specify that in your arguments that I have seen. If I missed it, then I apologize.

I'm okay requiring testosterone suppression for a period of time prior to competing, and during competition. That seems reasonable as a proxy.
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Old 24th April 2020, 02:34 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
And that completes my interaction with this conversation because you summed it up perfectly. Women can compete against women, men against men, but transgender athletes have to be in an "open" league.
That's not quite what I said, but okay. I suppose I did fail to specify trasnwomen who have fully transtioned hormonally can compete against cis-women. I should have been more explicit.

The whole point of an open league is that anyone can compete. I would assume there are brackets based on age, skill, maybe size. Whatever is relevant to that sport.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I just wanted to point out the irony of you openly stating that transgender females would dominate an open league, which you're ok with as long as it doesn't affect women's sports.
I didn't say that. I said that biological males would dominate the open league. That's true regardless of whether they're trans- or cis-. Genetically, males are more athletic than females. That's why we have mens and womens categories in sports in the first place.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It can effect transgender men, and you're totally fine with that, but stay away from the "normals" or else it's a problem. The lack of logic is so blatant I just can't seem to get over it.
If it makes you feel better, both transwomen and transmen can compete against cis-women provided their testosterone levels are within an appropriate range. Besides, you know this already DOES affect transmen, right? Transmen aren't competitive against cis-men in sports. Hell, you can take a person who was an elite competitor against women, and after transition to they're unlikely to be competitive against cis-men.

You keep assuming some level of bigotry and ostracism from me that isn't in evidence. And then you castigate me for having a lack of logic for a belief I don't hold... Interesting approach.

If I might ask, what gender do you identify as, and does that gender align with what you were assigned at birth? If you prefer not to answer, that's fine. It's an admittedly very personal question.
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Old 24th April 2020, 02:35 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Just not if they want to play in either men's or women's sports. Then you're against it because "they" should play in their own league. Where it's ok for men transitioning to women to have an upperhand against women transitioning to men. Then you're perfectly ok with it.
What? I don't know where you're getting this from. You appear to making a lot of assumptions?
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Old 24th April 2020, 09:49 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, so then what? I mean, you haven't actually supported these claims, but even if we take them at your word. Then what? What do we do with the transgender athletes? I've asked this now a few times, and have heard "give them their own league", but that isn't a viable option because not all transgender athletes are the same gender.

So I'll ask you like I've asked the others. We all understand that you guys are saying "they" are not "normal" and so shouldn't be allowed to participate in, specifically, female sports. What other options are there?
I've answered this question I believe in an earlier post (maybe before you asked) but I don't think anyone acknowledged me.

My solution is: open league (male + transmen/women) + female league.
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Old 24th April 2020, 10:04 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
The idea of segmenting sports by 'Women" and "Men" is mentally distressing to the gender-queer athletes. They do not want any labels.
If they don't want any "labels" then what is preventing them from continuing to compete in men's divisions of their sport. After all, its not about winning..... or is it?

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
How do you really make it fair to ALL?
That is a difficult question, but perhaps, like anyone else making a choice (and make no mistake, no-one is forcing them to undergo this procedure, it is a choice) not being eligible for a sport is one of the things they will have to weigh up - one of the downsides is being ruled ineligible for competitive sport.

Certainly, there are people who have to receive medical treatment that they have little choice about, which rule them out of competitive sports. My own personal example is asthma. Ventolin was ineffective and the only thing available was corticosteroids... bye-bye any chance of playing rugby again - its one of the main reasons I took up refereeing.
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Old 25th April 2020, 02:57 AM   #211
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I did respond to something here, but then I continued reading the thread. So instead I'm standing by my decision not to engage with people who misgender.
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Old 25th April 2020, 04:42 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If they don't want any "labels" then what is preventing them from continuing to compete in men's divisions of their sport. After all, its not about winning..... or is it?
The examples in media I was thinking of as I posted happen to be females. They ultimately decided to play on the Women's teams but did not like to be referred to by that gender. Take the case of G. Ryan, swimmer for a Michigan college:

“There are also times when our team is called a women’s team or we’re referred to as women or ladies. That’s also a challenge because I have to qualify those statements. I have to change the vocabulary in my own head so that I’m included in the conversation.”

Or Jaimi who is a female athlete and gender neutral person at Stanford:

"For Jaimi, who does not identify as a man or woman, playing on a women’s team is the best option for them to compete, given Stanford does not have an all-gender team. Whereas athletes are usually restricted to either a men’s or women’s team, Jaimi said, gender “is never black or white — it’s very colorful.”

There have been steps to make teams more accepting of transgender athletes, and while Jaimi feels safe in their identity at Stanford, they said there will never be full acceptance so long as sports remain gendered as they are today.

Jaimi does not know what a non-gendered athletic world would look like, especially with regard to competition. But they aren’t alone in trying to envision one."

Take those cases and put them next to the transgendered athletes who have a different mental need to be acknowledged by their preferred gender- and categorized that way. It's difficult to make everyone happy.

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Old 25th April 2020, 07:59 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I understand the point you're driving at here, but to me the actual athletes wouldn't do that. Why would they? There's absolutely no upside for a bunch of men in wigs to win a woman's state championship. I know we're not at odds with our positions, I just wanted to point that out. If their goal is to be recognized, scouted, and signed then this wouldn't just be about winning some ******* high school sports. I like to think athletes compete to go beyond with things like scholarships, or possibly professional experiences. What would they say to a college scout?

I agree. The whole premise is absurd, just unfortunately not the fear. Or I should say "fear" because it is as flimsy a pretext as there is.


I mean, I could see some school (or individual athlete) trying it but trolling behavior than actual glory seeking. Some tiny county in the sticks with a superintendent and school board full of MAGAMAGAMAGA thinking sending the boys varsity out as the girls team is "lol checkmate libtards" They'd never do it if the boys could win state, but they'd be the kind of chuckleheads to assume that Cleetus and Billy Joe would run circles around all those silly girls just because they are guys.

Which just means they'd lose. The gulf isn't that big in small time high school school sports.

They would need athletes not capable of winning against male competition who are willing to reduce themselves to trolls, yet capable of dominating against women. .

The population intersecting these venn diagrams is close to zero.

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Old 25th April 2020, 10:04 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

That is a difficult question, but perhaps, like anyone else making a choice (and make no mistake, no-one is forcing them to undergo this procedure, it is a choice) not being eligible for a sport is one of the things they will have to weigh up - one of the downsides is being ruled ineligible for competitive sport.

Certainly, there are people who have to receive medical treatment that they have little choice about, which rule them out of competitive sports. My own personal example is asthma. Ventolin was ineffective and the only thing available was corticosteroids... bye-bye any chance of playing rugby again - its one of the main reasons I took up refereeing.
Well, one stupid policy really doesn't justify a second. The use of medically necessary medication as disqualifying is a bad policy not quite as bad because it at least doesn't feed into an issue with societal identity and acceptance.

As far as choice goes... sheesh.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Just as a general point and not in response to anything:

Maybe it is just my personal experience with this that makes me a bit militant.

I'm not personally transgender. However, I have had more than a few occasions as a public defender to represent transgender persons in criminal cases both at the juvenile and adult level.

The juvenile ones are just heartbreaking. Roughly 100% of the time it was children acting out because of their parents and other authority figures minimizing (at best) what they were going through. I'd sit in MDT meetings with parents complaining that the kids had no respect for their rules as if their not having respect for the children's self-identity had nothing to do with this.

Which at the time I didn't have that much experience with it so it just seemed like another of the many issues in these cases. I mean, right up until the the one kid self-mutilated (attempted castration). That is a sort of wake-up call.

After that I maybe did a little good. I worked at educating myself and would forcefully confront parents who wouldn't take this seriously. It might have been slightly out of my lane, but when you are in the sticks and everybody else in the system thinks the kid is a freak, well, I felt like I was condoning child abuse otherwise.

We don't generally think of these issues in those terms. There is an illusion the LGBTQ issues are mostly an urban thing among people of means because those are the people who are able to speak up. We generally don't consider that there are kids who are poor and out in the sticks dealing with these issues among hostile and/or ignorant parents and other authority figures. We see it as an issue of token respect rather than one with very real and drastic consequences.

If some transgender woman wins an athletic competition, you celebrate her for being willing and able to endure the tons of abuse and assorted nastiness she faced along the way. You don't imply she's a cheater and make a high profile case about whether transgender women are real women and re-enforce the message that causes the very real harm done to transgender people on a regular basis.

As soon as we have a society that isn't hell on earth for the vast majority of transgender people we can start maybe thinking about competitive balance and whatnot. Up until then this is IMO beyond petty at best.
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Old 25th April 2020, 10:05 AM   #215
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"MDT meetings"?
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Old 25th April 2020, 10:18 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"MDT meetings"?
In social service type cases there is a thing where all the relevant parties (lawyers, parents government agency reps, any involved officers) meet to discuss possible courses of action other than going though the adversarial system which can then be proposed to the judge.

Sorry, I probably should have caught that I was using jargon there and re-worded it.
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Old 25th April 2020, 12:00 PM   #217
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Old 25th April 2020, 03:17 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Well, one stupid policy really doesn't justify a second. The use of medically necessary medication as disqualifying is a bad policy not quite as bad because it at least doesn't feed into an issue with societal identity and acceptance.
You do understand what performance enhancing drugs are, right, and why WADA bans their use in all sports?

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
As far as choice goes... sheesh.
"Sheesh" doesn't really address anything, but what it tells me is that you did not understand what I meant.

Being transgender is not a choice - I know this, I'm not stupid. However, deciding that you want to play sport among women and girls when you were born a male IS a choice. According to Sherkeu (the person I was replying to)... "The idea of segmenting sports by 'Women' and 'Men' is mentally distressing to the gender-queer athletes. They do not want any labels."

My first response to that is, well, its just tough. The other 99.999% of the population have no problem with having women's and men's sport segregated, so suck it up. Its not going to change any time soon. There are scientific and physiological reasons why many sports are segregated. Whether some of the more politically correct among us like it or not, it is a fact that overall, men are measurably faster and physically stronger than women. Just one example; the 10 second barrier for the 100m sprint was broken by Jim Hines in 1968. Since then, 987 times of less than 10 seconds have been run. The women's world record is 10.49 seconds set by FloJo in 1988, and it was very likely drug-assisted. As for full contact sports, you can be sure that women trying playing such sports as Football (US), Ice Hockey, Rugby etc, against men, will get seriously injured.

My second response is that any transgender person attempting to be allowed to compete in women's sport when they were born male is pretty much pinning their own label on their own persona... literally the definition of labelling themselves.

I don't think anyone born male should have any right to compete in women's sport. Women are entitled to compete on an equal, fair and level playing field with other women. Allowing what are essentially males who feel like they are females to do so, tilts the playing field. Women's sports have fought long and hard for recognition and to be taken seriously - they have to fight for every penny of sponsorship and every second of TV and Radio airtime they get. Allowing a bunch of competitors who are physically and physiologically male to infiltrate their sport and shove them to the sideline is pandering to a tiny minority and grossly unfair to sportswomen.
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Old 27th April 2020, 09:19 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You do understand what performance enhancing drugs are, right, and why WADA bans their use in all sports?
Yes as to what they are, no as to why they don't exclude medically necessary treatments.

Also that the vast majority of it is arbitrary nonsense. The idea of protecting people from taking dangerous drugs by eliminating the benefit of doing so is fine, but when they go so far as to eliminate reasonable therapeutic use they go right off the rails. They do the harm they claim to be preventing.

Quote:



"Sheesh" doesn't really address anything, but what it tells me is that you did not understand what I meant.

Being transgender is not a choice - I know this, I'm not stupid. However, deciding that you want to play sport among women and girls when you were born a male IS a choice
Being transgender is not a choice, but engaging in society as a member of one's own gender will not always be respected because it... is a choice. That seems... bad.

Banning a 14 year old transgender girl from the school basketball team based on her identity and the possibility she is going to be good is hurtful in a very real way that sends a clear message. This isn't some random appeal to children. The majority of people that play sport in the US are in school and that is the time that most of the harm of stigmatizing about 1% of the population happens.

As soon as that army of transgender women appear to dominate sport then maybe there can be talk. But until some pretty drastic harm is shown this is all at best petty and at worst pretense. At a very minimum this is completely unjustifiable at the scholastic level.

Quote:
and make no mistake, no-one is forcing them to undergo this procedure, it is a choice
Sheesh.
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Old 27th April 2020, 11:25 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Sheesh.
I think this is pretty much all that needs to be said. I don't think there's any progress left to be made, and if it were up to me I'd request this thread to be closed.

The disappointment in the arguments or "logic" I've seen here is tough. It does make me want to do everything in my power to educate those around me so that ideas like the ones espoused here are not passed on to my children. Gladly, it hasn't been so far.
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Old 27th April 2020, 11:27 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't think anyone born male should have any right to compete in women's sport. Women are entitled to compete on an equal, fair and level playing field with other women. Allowing what are essentially males who feel like they are females to do so, tilts the playing field. Women's sports have fought long and hard for recognition and to be taken seriously - they have to fight for every penny of sponsorship and every second of TV and Radio airtime they get. Allowing a bunch of competitors who are physically and physiologically male to infiltrate their sport and shove them to the sideline is pandering to a tiny minority and grossly unfair to sportswomen.
This is better said than what I wrote. This is what it comes down to for me, and this is the trade-off that I don't think is fair and just. I'm all for transgender rights, but I'm not supportive of sacrificing women's rights to get them. Women are still disadvantaged in a lot of areas, and I don't think that expecting cis-women to step aside so that trans-women can benefit at their expense is a good approach if equality and equity is the goal.
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Old 27th April 2020, 01:05 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is better said than what I wrote. This is what it comes down to for me, and this is the trade-off that I don't think is fair and just. I'm all for transgender rights, but I'm not supportive of sacrificing women's rights to get them. Women are still disadvantaged in a lot of areas, and I don't think that expecting cis-women to step aside so that trans-women can benefit at their expense is a good approach if equality and equity is the goal.


Nobody is making the cis women "step aside." There is the argument that they might not be as competitive.

Who is being told to step aside here is the trans women. Totally barred.

Even if this was an issue, and trans women were crowding out cis women, what exactly is the basis for favoring the cis woman here?

I mean, besides denying that trans-women are "real" women. Other than that.
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Old 27th April 2020, 01:28 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Nobody is making the cis women "step aside." There is the argument that they might not be as competitive.

Who is being told to step aside here is the trans women. Totally barred.

Even if this was an issue, and trans women were crowding out cis women, what exactly is the basis for favoring the cis woman here?

I mean, besides denying that trans-women are "real" women. Other than that.
The categorization of Men's and Women's leagues is based on physiological differences between the sexes. Males are more powerful, taller, stronger, have better endurance, denser bones, higher power-to-weight ratios.

Transwomen are women in the sense that they identify with traditional women's gender roles and presentation and that's how they view themselves. Which is perfectly acceptable.

Transwomen are not, however, females. They still have male physiology. Thus, they still have male levels of power, strength, bone density, endurance, etc. A year or so with testosterone blockers can help reduce that disparity, but it won't eliminate it completely. Still, I'm fine with allowing transwomen to complete against ciswomen after they've been on hormone therapy for a reasonable amount of time and have testosterone levels within a comparable range to genetic females.

I'm just not okay with allowing unadjusted physically male people to compete against physically female people.
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Old 27th April 2020, 03:16 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Yes as to what they are, no as to why they don't exclude medically necessary treatments.

Also that the vast majority of it is arbitrary nonsense. The idea of protecting people from taking dangerous drugs by eliminating the benefit of doing so is fine, but when they go so far as to eliminate reasonable therapeutic use they go right off the rails. They do the harm they claim to be preventing.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As I stated earlier, I had to stop playing due to requiring treatment using substances that no longer allowed me to participate in a sport I loved playing. I accepted that, sucked it up, and got on with my life, I did not go around on a "woe is me" campaign, and I have nothing but contempt for those who do.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Being transgender is not a choice, but engaging in society as a member of one's own gender will not always be respected because it... is a choice. That seems... bad.
Its hard luck, that's life, get on with it.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Banning a 14 year old transgender girl from the school basketball team based on her identity sex and the possibility she is going to be good is hurtful in a very real way that sends unfairly displace a more qualified player will send a clear message.
And that message is, if you are not a female (being a boy, and "feeling" like you are a girl does not make you female) then you are not qualified to participate in a girl's sport. That should be the end of it.

Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
As soon as that army of transgender women appear to dominate sport then maybe there can be talk. But until some pretty drastic harm is shown this is all at best petty and at worst pretense. At a very minimum this is completely unjustifiable at the scholastic level.
So that's your big plan? Wait until after the damage is done? Remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

It will be too late by then. Women will have been disenfranchised from their own sport.

IMO, it should be up to the governing body of each individual sport to decide whether transgender athletes should be qualified to compete - they should put it to the vote among their registered competitors. Whether they say yes or no, the majority of those actually affected should be the ones who get to make such a decision.

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Old 27th April 2020, 04:46 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The categorization of Men's and Women's leagues is based on physiological differences between the sexes. Males are more powerful, taller, stronger, have better endurance, denser bones, higher power-to-weight ratios.

Transwomen are women in the sense that they identify with traditional women's gender roles and presentation and that's how they view themselves. Which is perfectly acceptable.

Transwomen are not, however, females. They still have male physiology. Thus, they still have male levels of power, strength, bone density, endurance, etc. A year or so with testosterone blockers can help reduce that disparity, but it won't eliminate it completely. Still, I'm fine with allowing transwomen to complete against ciswomen after they've been on hormone therapy for a reasonable amount of time and have testosterone levels within a comparable range to genetic females.

I'm just not okay with allowing unadjusted physically male people to compete against physically female people.
I wonder how many times this needs to be said before people acknowledge this reality.

Also, competing in a sport is not a "right" as people seem to be suggesting. Not everyone can, in the first place, due to physical limitations. Best to leave the competition as fair as possible and sex-segregated as it HAS been for good reason. The fact that we use gender labels ("men, women") is just a shorthand as it always has been for 99.9% of human existence. If someone can't handle the fact that we happen to use a gender label in the SEX sense in one popular circumstance is just too bad (as we do in many circumstances). Get over it.

Competitive integrity and fairness is more important in this sport than (the general) your specific hangup over a label (which is what this is).
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Old 27th April 2020, 04:55 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I wonder how many times this needs to be said before people acknowledge this reality.
People with agendas will never acknowledge realities such as this, because it leaves them no wiggle room for airy fairy weasel words
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Old 30th April 2020, 01:11 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I believe people also make livings from playing video games, telling fortunes, and discussing celebrity scandals. That doesn't make those things important to society.
Society is made up of individuals, who value things. Many of those individuals value sports (and video games, and telling fortunes, and discussing celebrity scandals), which pretty much by definition makes them important to society.

To the extent that those things include externalities that negatively affect other members of society, there might be an argument for putting limits or regulations on them, but otherwise I don't see an argument against their importance.
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Old 30th April 2020, 01:29 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Yes, I considered both of those points. And, again, I'm not saying this is a simple issue or without grey areas.

But I recall the most recent Winter Olympics. Chemmy Alcott was a regular punter and I forget exactly how they got on to the subject, but in one segment she talked about how she was built to be a skier, and went through a checklist of physical traits - from body shape through to thigh size, etc. - that she inherited from each parent and how they were all the ideal for skiing. Or I think about how I've seen Michael Phelps described as having the perfect body for swimming, from a triangular torso through to having huge "scoop-like" hands, etc. Or even about what the study quoted above said about how testosterone affects different men in different ways meaning that some men will naturally be more muscular than others, or will find it easier to build up muscle than others do. The list goes on and on.

And I think about all of that and I try to justify why a transwoman being taller or more muscular (and bearing in mind that these things are only true on average in aggregate) than her competitors is different, and I can't think of a single reason why it should be.

All of that, of course, is assuming that evidence eventually demonstrates that transwomen really do have a significant competitive advantage.
Doesn't this argue for doing away with women's divisions entirely?
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:12 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Doesn't this argue for doing away with women's divisions entirely?
No.
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Old 30th April 2020, 06:25 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No.
Okay, can you explain why you think women's divisions in sport are a good idea?

I think the reason that they make sense is similar to why we have weight divisions in wrestling (and other sports): the give people within a certain less physically competitive category a chance to compete among themselves on the basis of skill. Of course their physical characteristics within that group will still come in to play, but by giving them a separate division they are able to compete at the highest level within that group, whereas, for instance, 70kg wrestlers would never stand a chance of winning a gold medal if there were no weight classes. Similarly we'd see no female gold medalist sprinters if there were no women's division.

But that's my view. Since you expressed an argument that those considerations aren't meaningful, I'm interested in what meaningful consideration does justify separate male and female divisions in your view.
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Old 30th April 2020, 07:49 AM   #231
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No, I'm not going to indulge any amount of straw manning on a topic like this one, I'm afraid.
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Old 30th April 2020, 09:57 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No, I'm not going to indulge any amount of straw manning on a topic like this one, I'm afraid.
I'm not interested in strawmen. But I am interested in why you think that women's divisions shouldn't be disbanded, and what you believe the justification for women's leagues is.
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Old 30th April 2020, 02:56 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, can you explain why you think women's divisions in sport are a good idea?

I think the reason that they make sense is similar to why we have weight divisions in wrestling (and other sports): the give people within a certain less physically competitive category a chance to compete among themselves on the basis of skill. Of course their physical characteristics within that group will still come in to play, but by giving them a separate division they are able to compete at the highest level within that group, whereas, for instance, 70kg wrestlers would never stand a chance of winning a gold medal if there were no weight classes. Similarly we'd see no female gold medalist sprinters if there were no women's division.

But that's my view. Since you expressed an argument that those considerations aren't meaningful, I'm interested in what meaningful consideration does justify separate male and female divisions in your view.

Similarly, we have age grade divisions in sports because it is entirely unfair for, say, 16 year olds to compete in the same teams that 12 year olds are competing in. In Rugby Union, we even have weight grades within age grades, e.g. in our local junior competitions we have U13 which is open only to players Under 13 years old, and U13W which is open only to players under 13 years old and under 85kg in weight. Furthermore, the Under 13 year old grades and below allows girls and boys to play in mixed teams.

These are just some examples here, am sure many other sports in many other countries have similar examples with arrangements.
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Old 30th April 2020, 03:13 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
(Former) men competing in women's sports is probably going to be the death of women's sports.

Ah, it's the old phobic "men are going to change gender just to compete in women's sports, not that they are actually trans".

That or you have a very serious lack of knowledge of how many trans people there actually are... with those participating in sports being an even smaller subset of that.

So if it's the former, that's pretty bigoted. And if it's the latter, well that just proves you were talking out of an orifice.


ETA: Nevermind, I got to your last paragraph. We know which one it is.


This whole "others are going to get our stuff and invade our lifestyle" sure seems to dominate the entire Republican mindset these days.
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Old 30th April 2020, 03:16 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I agree. A sex change operation should be seen, from a sports perspective, as being no different from a doping in order to gain a performance enhancement - its an elective surgical procedure.

All you are doing is proving that you think sex makes a binary change in physicality between men and women. And not that there is a huge range in both sexes including a large overlap.

You seriously think the average man could compete in the WNBA or in top level women's track & field or something?

lmao "no different from doping"
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Old 30th April 2020, 03:37 PM   #236
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Old 30th April 2020, 04:56 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
All you are doing is proving that you think sex makes a binary change in physicality between men and women. And not that there is a huge range in both sexes including a large overlap.

You seriously think the average man could compete in the WNBA.....
It depends on the sport, and it depends what you define as "the average man"

Some years ago the Canterbury representative womens cricket team played a warm up match against a local high school 1st XI team - schoolboys of 15 and 16 years of age against the top women players in Canterbury. The boys caned their bowlers all over the park and cleaned up their batting line-up in short order. How do you explain that?

And then there was Bobby Riggs, a 55 year old, former middling to average male tennis player, who thrashed the women's World No 1 ranked player, Margaret Court 6-2, 6-1. He later went on to play Billie Jean King (World No 2) losing 4-6, 3-6, 3-6. However the point is that a 55 year old ex-tennis player of mere average ability was able compete on an equal footing with the best the women's world of tennis had to offer. If there was no physical advantage to being a man, those girls should have wiped him off the court 6-0, 6-0. They were unable to do that. How do you explain that?

It is an irrefutable biological, physical and scientific fact that men are overall quicker, faster and stronger than women. Any reasonable, average sportsman will gain a huge advantage if he is allowed to compete against women.

PS: there is one sport where women and men do compete on equal footing across a huge range of ages... Equestrian sports such as horse racing, show jumping and eventing (or combined training as it is sometimes called). Have a guess why that might be!

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
...or in top level women's track & field or something?
The Australian schoolboys 16 year olds 100m sprint record is 10.73 sec, was set by Scott Richardson of Ulladulla High School 1998

That time would give him the follwing results in the Olympic women's 100 m sprint

1996 Gold medal ahead of Gail Devers, USA, 10.92
2000 Gold medal ahead of Ekaterini Thanou, Greece, 11.12
2004 Gold medal ahead of Yulia Nestsiarenka, Belarus, 10.93
2008 Gold medal ahead of Shelly-Ann Fraser, Jamaica, 10.78
2012 Gold medal ahead of Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce, Jamaica 10.75
2016 Silver medal behind Elaine THOMPSON, Jamaica 10.71

Incidentally, 15 year olds Neil McCulley (St Clair HS) and Manoa Veikoso (Fairvale HS) both with a time of 10.98 would also have gold medaled in 2000, and had podium finishes in the other events I mentioned above.

ETA: and just to be clear, I am not insensitive to the pain and suffering of transgender people and the way they are often treated by society. However, I care about the integrity of women's and girls sports more.

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Old 30th April 2020, 06:13 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No, I'm not going to indulge any amount of straw manning on a topic like this one, I'm afraid.
Good. I don't think I straw manned you. I was pretty careful to say that I expressed my view of why women's divisions make sense, and was interested in your view of why they make sense because I can't see a viewpoint that's consistent with both women's divisions and the view you expressed that physical differences don't justify separate divisions.

If you think I've misinterpreted your previous comments and you're not saying that physical differences don't justify separate divisions, you could explain that. I read your post and that seemed to be the clear argument that you were making (see for instance comments about Micheal Phelps' body proportions), but maybe there's some subtlety here that I missed.
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Old 30th April 2020, 08:34 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
All you are doing is proving that you think sex makes a binary change in physicality between men and women. And not that there is a huge range in both sexes including a large overlap.

You seriously think the average man could compete in the WNBA or in top level women's track & field or something?

lmao "no different from doping"
No one denies this.

Could an "average man" beat the best of women? Usually not. Could someone of above average capability (not extraordinary), some motivation and a bit of training do so (perhaps someone who is a transwoman)?

Probably.

I certainly don't think trans folk will "dominate" as I acknowledge they're very rare within society... but it only takes a few to overcome records and to ruin some competitions.
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Old 1st May 2020, 10:31 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
No one denies this.

Could an "average man" beat the best of women? Usually not. Could someone of above average capability (not extraordinary), some motivation and a bit of training do so (perhaps someone who is a transwoman)?

Probably.

I certainly don't think trans folk will "dominate" as I acknowledge they're very rare within society... but it only takes a few to overcome records and to ruin some competitions.
Fine, but is this worth legally barring trans people from sport?


Consider some direct consequences of this on a widespread level:

This is a law that puts officials in the uncomfortable and easily abused position to be worried about the nature of other people's genitals, often the genitals of children.

So what will happen is frequently when someone who looks the least bit masculine dominates a women's sport some sore losers (more the parents in scholastic sport) will accuse her of being biologically male.

So now ...

1) The girl in question gets to deal with the accusation and possibly an invasive investigation about the nature and history of her genitals.

2) She gets what is probably already an awkward social life at school made even worse.

3) She is put in the position where defending herself implicitly endorses the idea, whether she agrees with it or not, that transgender girls should be treated differently in any way. ("I'm not one of them." etc.)

4) Other similarly situated girls will stop playing sport because the above is a nightmare.

Right from that we can conclude that these bans cause more harm than good, even before we get to:

5) Transgender kids get a nice reminder that their identity is not as important as making sure that there is not widespread voter fraud. ethics in gaming journalism. competitive imbalance in sport.

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