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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 21st April 2020, 08:18 AM   #241
dann
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This would mean Swedish snus may be protective?

It may protect you from the coronavirus, so if you want to risk increasing your chances of having pancreatic cancer instead ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 08:22 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It may protect you from the coronavirus, so if you want to risk increasing your chances of having pancreatic cancer instead ...
I've actually had my opinion on snus reversed. Negative health effects seem to very minor. Most of the reported problems like pancreatic cancer don't seem to be of concern.

Aesthetic effects are another issue ...
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:15 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Depends what you mean by "working".
The article defines it as "the actual development [...] generally following the government’s prediction". Also that the entire point of a lockdown is to ensure that the healthcare system doesn't get overwhelmed and that the evidence indicates that "the growth in intensive care patients has slowed down remarkably and the number of patients currently in intensive care has flatlined" while hospitals have the capacity to care for up to twice as many patients as they currently are.

I've not done a deep dive into the situation in Sweden and I don't know if there are other issues that the article doesn't go in to which could have been mitigated by a lockdown, so I can't really judge, but it seems to me that this argument is worthy of consideration.

The biggest argument against it on the face of it is that if a vaccine is developed then slowing the rate of infection may have saved more lives. But we know from other countries that lockdowns have a cost in lives, too, and it stands to reason that there will be a further cost that isn't immediate - people made financially destitute or needing to forgo medical treatment, etc. can have their lives shortened for many reasons in many ways.

It's impossible to say at this stage which strategy would ultimately save the most lives. And I have to say that when I first heard about it I was appalled at Sweden's strategy. But I'm not going to dismiss an argument out of hand simply because it goes against what I initially assumed to be true, especially if that argument appears to be backed up by the data.

I think it would be a mistake to form a solid opinion one way or the other until we have access to all the relevant facts, but this piece does move my needle somewhat from "this is a bad idea" towards "maybe it's not such a bad idea". Time will tell. It always does.
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:31 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Depends what you mean by "working". 185 new deaths added to the total today, going back nearly a month. The rate of death continues to be grow, though slowing. Denmark, Finland, and Norway reversed deaths quite some time ago.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...f0d45b621f.png
Yeah, but Denmark is now talking about allowing public gatherings of up to 500 people. Apparently it's now okay if more people get infected. It's suddenly okay if more people die.
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:35 AM   #245
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Quote:
Stockholm is well above the global average for how many people have had covid-19. Yesterday, the WHO went on to say that only a few percent of the world's population is infected, but several studies now show that a third of everyone in Stockholm County has been infected.

Today, the Public Health Authority presented a new study that estimates that one third of everyone in Stockholm County will be infected with sars-cov-2 on May 1st this year. That will be about 600,000 people.

Many unconfirmed cases
The study is a mathematical modeling of the spread of the virus in Stockholm County. It is based partly on the so-called Stockholm study that was conducted a few weeks ago when randomly tested 700 Stockholmers and partly the new infected cases that are reported daily.

- What is surprising is that there are so many cases, 99 percent of all cases, that are completely unconfirmed, says Lisa Brouwers, head of analysis at the Public Health Authority.
And society has still not collapsed.
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:40 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
And society has still not collapsed.

No, society seems to be doing fine with letting old people die.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:41 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, society seems to be doing fine with letting old people die.
Yeah it's okay if people die.
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:52 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The article defines it as "the actual development [...] generally following the government’s prediction". Also that the entire point of a lockdown is to ensure that the healthcare system doesn't get overwhelmed and that the evidence indicates that "the growth in intensive care patients has slowed down remarkably and the number of patients currently in intensive care has flatlined" while hospitals have the capacity to care for up to twice as many patients as they currently are.
What they neglect to mention is that the largest hospital network in Stockholm instituted a policy of not placing the elderly into ICU, and despite them being a higher percentage of reported infections in April cf March, they dropped to less than half the March rate in percent of ICU beds.

Whether this policy is (or was) wider spread is unclear, however there's been numerous media reports from people claiming it has happened to them (or their loved ones)

Is this enough to have stabilised the ICU demand? Unfortunately the data that would make it possible to analyse isn't available, but I suspect it is.

Quote:
The biggest argument against it on the face of it is that if a vaccine is developed then slowing the rate of infection may have saved more lives.
Personally i think the biggest argument is treatment improvements rather than a vaccine. Potential treatments can be in place orders of magnitude faster than a vaccine, and there are several extremely promising ones already on the horizon.

Quote:
But we know from other countries that lockdowns have a cost in lives, too, and it stands to reason that there will be a further cost that isn't immediate - people made financially destitute or needing to forgo medical treatment, etc. can have their lives shortened for many reasons in many ways.
Sure, and that's a discussion to be had in the open, not hiding behind data that gives a false impression.

Hilariously, last week one of the (many) supporters of the Swedish approach had an opinion piece and he cited research showing a significant increase in cancer deaths following lockdowns. He even provided a link to the research.

He missed the part (it was even in the title!) that this effect wasn't found in countries with Universal Health Care.

Quote:
It's impossible to say at this stage which strategy would ultimately save the most lives. And I have to say that when I first heard about it I was appalled at Sweden's strategy. But I'm not going to dismiss an argument out of hand simply because it goes against what I initially assumed to be true, especially if that argument appears to be backed up by the data.
Outside the ethical considerations of ignoring treatment effects on mortality, I have no quarrel with the approach of a "soft lockdown" in general. What I have a quarrel with is supporting the approach by -

(a) gaslighting the public with data that is entirely unreliable
(b) claiming scientific research says something when in reality it says the opposite
(c) taking an approach where success is based enormously on "protect the elderly" and then essentially doing nothing to put that in place or monitor it, just expecting it will magically happen. (it has not)

Quote:
I think it would be a mistake to form a solid opinion one way or the other until we have access to all the relevant facts, but this piece does move my needle somewhat from "this is a bad idea" towards "maybe it's not such a bad idea". Time will tell. It always does.
Yes, time will tell. I have not been encouraged by several promoters of this approach, including Sweden's current and former Chief Epidemiologists (and now Stanford's John Ioaniddis) claiming this virus will end up with an IFR about the same as the flu (0.1%).

Numerous places, including Lombardy, New York, Madrid have all exceeded 0.1% *population* mortality rate.

John Giesecke (former Chief Epidemiologist and current paid advisor to the Swedish Health Authority) this week gave an interview where he used that figure to predict final death tolls of around 2000 in Sweden and 12000 in the UK. He did this despite having been told earlier in the interview that the UK death toll was already over 13000. Sweden's is almost certainly passed 2000 as well.

It's worth watching -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfN2JWifLCY

I early on discovered that many of the main players involved in the decision making in Sweden all studied epidemiology at The London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. Chris Whitty, UK Chief Medical Officer and original proponent of this "herd immunity" approach in the UK, is a long term Professor there, it's obviously a school of thought.

There are also some other specific legal challenges Sweden has, I outlined them on a twitter thread you might find interesting.
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:53 AM   #249
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yeah, but Denmark is now talking about allowing public gatherings of up to 500 people. Apparently it's now okay if more people get infected. It's suddenly okay if more people die.

There is nothing sudden about the decision to make the restrictions a little less strict. On the contrary, it was the intention from the very beginning to loosen the restrictions gradually as soon as the spreading of the virus was somewhat under control.
When the restrictions were introduced, it was too late to choose the Icelandic strategy. (If they had banned ski tourism to Tyrol, which I think they should have done at a much earlier stage, it would have been a different story.)
But instead of following the Swedish strategy of achieving herd immunity by letting to virus run wild, the Danish strategy brought the rate of infection down from 2.4 (if I remember correctly) to 0.6, which was the point when it had been made feasible to loosen the restrictions while still keeping an eye on the rate of infection to prevent it from getting out of hand.
I'm not crazy about the way Denmark has handled the pandemic (compare Denmark and Norway, for instance!), but I'm glad that I don't live in Stockholm ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:55 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yeah it's okay if people die.

Yes, your point of view has been pretty consistent from the very beginning of this thread.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 09:57 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yeah, but Denmark is now talking about allowing public gatherings of up to 500 people. Apparently it's now okay if more people get infected. It's suddenly okay if more people die.
Source for that? AFAIK the large event ban is in place until September
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:03 AM   #252
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It's not just legislative issues that restricts the Swedish governments ability to enact coercive measure, there are practical issues as well. If you are supposed to have a "lockdown" and mandatory curfew you need someone to enforce it.

Guess what? Swedish police is already heavily understaffed as it is right now, especially in Stockholm where the outbreak has been worst.

If the police are supposed to play hide-and-seek with people who violate the curfew or be rifling through shopping bags to see if people have bought any "unessential" items and stuff like that, then that's going to lock-up that many cops who could be doing something else.

Swedish criminals have not stopped blowing up apartment entrances or bodegas.
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:11 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting comparison of Norway, Denmark and Sweden:

I have taken the numbers from these curves comparing different countries:
Døde siden første dødsfald (TV2, April 19, 2020) = (Total number of) deaths since first death

Day No: 08 - 11 - 14 - 17 -- 20 -- 23 --- 26 --- 29 --- 32 ---- 35 ---- 38
Number of deaths:
Norway: 07 - 14 - 23 - 39 -- 59 -- 76 -- 108 - 128 - 150 -- 164
Denmark:15 - 25 - 43 - 76 -110 - 170 - 214 - 254 - 292 -- 330 -- 355
Sweden: 11 - 21 - 62 - 105 -180 -358 - 477 - 793 - 899 -1203 - 1511

I wasn't aware that Denmark was ahead of Sweden at the beginning of the pandemic.

Population:
Norway: 5,378,857
Denmark: 5,771,876
Sweden: 10,036,379

Day 41:
Denmark: 370
Sweden: 1,765
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:11 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Source for that? AFAIK the large event ban is in place until September
Quote:
Denmark continues the reopening of society, and announces that public gatherings of up to 500 people will be allowed from May 11.

The message should be seen as the ceiling for what may become possible during the summer, according to the Ministry of Health. Right now, a decision is made on a maximum of ten people until the next week, hoping to stop the spread of the corona virus.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a...amlas-i-sommar

https://translate.google.se/translat...amlas-i-sommar
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Last edited by Arcade22; 21st April 2020 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:16 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Day 41:
Denmark: 370
Sweden: 1,765
Seems like Denmark wants to catch-up this summer. I'm sure you can cope with roughly half of the deaths Sweden has experienced.
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:16 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Source for that? AFAIK the large event ban is in place until September

Regeringen sætter tal på forbudte forsamlinger:Alt med mere end 500 personer skal aflyses (DR.dk, April 21, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:19 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It's not just legislative issues that restricts the Swedish governments ability to enact coercive measure, there are practical issues as well. If you are supposed to have a "lockdown" and mandatory curfew you need someone to enforce it.

Guess what? Swedish police is already heavily understaffed as it is right now, especially in Stockholm where the outbreak has been worst.

If the police are supposed to play hide-and-seek with people who violate the curfew or be rifling through shopping bags to see if people have bought any "unessential" items and stuff like that, then that's going to lock-up that many cops who could be doing something else.

Swedish criminals have not stopped blowing up apartment entrances or bodegas.
There has however been nothing at all stopping Folkhälsomyndigheten issuing "Allmänna råd" (a strange kind of "binding advice" with limited actual legal power) that simply says #STAYATHOME

They have not done that. As the Giesecke interview makes extremely clear, the strategy here is to aim for herd immunity as quickly as possible while trying to keep health care demand under control and protecting the vulnerable.

The approach assumes several things -

(a) the virus can't be stopped using suppression and mitigation ("the hammer and the dance")
(b) there will be no vaccine prior to herd immunity being achieved naturally
(c) there will be no treatment available to significantly decrease mortality until herd immunity is achieved
(d) immunity of some type is actually achievable
(e) the vulnerable can be protected

I consider this approach ethically indefensible, especially combined with the acknowledged refusal to actually model potential deaths using this approach
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:22 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Thanks. That's still 3 weeks away and assumes a continued decline. With appropriate testing and tracking protocols that may very well be acceptable
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:27 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Seems like Denmark wants to catch-up this summer. I'm sure you can cope with roughly half of the deaths Sweden has experienced.

What are you talking about? Even if we look at per capita deaths (i.e. per million), we get this result:
Sweden: 176
USA: 129
Denmark: 64
Norway: 34

Sweden is now on the Top 10 of Covid-19 deaths.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:41 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
Thanks. That's still 3 weeks away and assumes a continued decline. With appropriate testing and tracking protocols that may very well be acceptable

I don't think it's a good idea, but I guess it's an attempt to make the conservative parties happy by making it possible for cinemas, theatres, concert halls and restaurants to reopen.
I'm SG's age, but even though I'm not in any of the other risk groups (except ♂️, of course), I don't think I'll visit any crowded places until after I've acquired immunity - one way or the other.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:41 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
There has however been nothing at all stopping Folkhälsomyndigheten issuing "Allmänna råd" (a strange kind of "binding advice" with limited actual legal power) that simply says #STAYATHOME
And yet despite that many people have done so on their own.

Quote:
As the Giesecke interview makes extremely clear, the strategy here is to aim for herd immunity as quickly as possible while trying to keep health care demand under control and protecting the vulnerable.

The approach assumes several things -

(a) the virus can't be stopped using suppression and mitigation ("the hammer and the dance")
(b) there will be no vaccine prior to herd immunity being achieved naturally
(c) there will be no treatment available to significantly decrease mortality until herd immunity is achieved
(d) immunity of some type is actually achievable
(e) the vulnerable can be protected

I consider this approach ethically indefensible, especially combined with the acknowledged refusal to actually model potential deaths using this approach
In reality, if they were literally aiming for herd immunity, they would intentionally expose healthy and fit young people to the virus and then have them enter quarantine.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:45 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What are you talking about? Even if we look at per capita deaths (i.e. per million), we get this result:
Sweden: 176
USA: 129
Denmark: 64
Norway: 34

Sweden is now on the Top 10 of Covid-19 deaths.
You don't seriously think they are recording deaths the same way in the US as they are in Sweden, do you? Or are you just that stupid? I have tried to explain this to you, but you refuse to listen and continue to cite those numbers as if they mean something when you have not even made any effort at all to ensure the consistence of the statistics and their definitions.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 21st April 2020 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:54 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
(c) there will be no treatment available to significantly decrease mortality until herd immunity is achieved

I have high hopes for Remdesivir:
Antiviral remdesivir prevents disease progression in monkeys with COVID-19 (NIH, April 17, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 10:57 AM   #264
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
You don't seriously think they are recording deaths the same way in the US as they are in Sweden, do you? Or are you just that stupid? I have tried to explain this to you, but you refuse to listen and continue to cite those numbers as if they mean something when you have not even made any effort at all to ensure the consistence of the statistics and their definitions.

So far, you have had nothing to offer other than your faith in Swedish authorities. You have excelled in a lack of facts and arguments and explained absolutely nothing.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:03 AM   #265
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
And yet despite that many people have done so on their own.

In reality, if they were literally aiming for herd immunity, they would intentionally expose healthy and fit young people to the virus and then have them enter quarantine.

What they have done is to "let healthy and fit young people" infect each other before they returned to their jobs the next morning to infect the elderly and the infirm.
That is the way to achieve heard immunity - after a lot of deaths. A better way would have been to slow the process down and await a vaccine or an effective medical treatment of this disease. For some reason, your Swedish authorities didn't have the patience for that.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:04 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
They have not done that. As the Giesecke interview makes extremely clear, the strategy here is to aim for herd immunity as quickly as possible while trying to keep health care demand under control and protecting the vulnerable.
By the way, Giesecke does not work for the FHM.

The "strategy", as in most countries without any ability to institute widespread testing, has been to balance the spread of infection and the resultant deaths with the socioeconomic costs of restrictions to commerce and business as well as infringements to personal freedoms.
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:06 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So far, you have had nothing to offer other than your faith in Swedish authorities. You have excelled in a lack of facts and arguments and explained absolutely nothing.
What a pathetic non-response to my post. Keep on comparing your apples and potatoes.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:07 AM   #268
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By the way, Giesecke does not work for the FHM.

The "strategy", as in most countries without any ability to institute widespread testing, has been to balance the spread of infection and the resultant deaths with the socioeconomic costs of restrictions to commerce and business as well as infringements to personal freedoms.

You got that part of it right ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:12 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You got that part of it right ...
Yes in your communist utopia there would be no need to make those kinds of compromises but in the real world you have to make tough choices.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:20 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
What a pathetic non-response to my post. Keep on comparing your apples and potatoes.

That you don't actually believe in the one phrase you invariably resort to becomes apparent whenever you think the numbers prove you right. There are no problems when you compare Sweden with Belgium, for some weird (but very obvious) reason, but whenever I compare Sweden with the other Scandinavian countries, coronavirus deaths suddenly turn into apples and potatoes.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:22 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That you don't actually believe in the one phrase you invariably resort to becomes apparent whenever you think the numbers prove you right. There are no problems when you compare Sweden with Belgium, for some weird (but very obvious) reason, but whenever I compare Sweden with the other Scandinavian countries, coronavirus deaths suddenly turn into apples and potatoes.
The problem here is that you ONLY compare Sweden to Scandinavian countries. That's called cherry picking.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:27 AM   #272
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yes in your communist utopia there would be no need to make those kinds of compromises but in the real world you have to make tough choices.

No, you don't. Maybe you haven't noticed, but whenever I compare Sweden with Denmark or Norway, the comparison is with two countries in the real world, neither of them a "communist utopia" and at least one of them with a Social Democrat as its primeminister - like Sweden (and yet very unlike Sweden, fortunately).
Once again, you've managed to make it apparent to everybody that you don't have an actual argument, one that looks at the "real world" and analyzes it. Instead, you are grasping for straws that will somehow justify your idea that Sweden's authoritarian MO of making "tough choices" is the right thing to do when it obviously isn't.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:31 AM   #273
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The problem here is that you ONLY compare Sweden to Scandinavian countries. That's called cherry picking.

No, it's not. It's called comparing Sweden with the countries that it is usually compared with. Besides, I've compared Sweden the with the USA as well, which also doesn't seem to please you.
Comparing Sweden with Belgium, of all countries, now that's cherry picking!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st April 2020 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:35 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you don't. Maybe you haven't noticed, but whenever I compare Sweden with Denmark or Norway, the comparison is with two countries in the real world, neither of them a "communist utopia" and at least one of them with a Social Democrat as its primeminister - like Sweden (and yet very unlike Sweden, fortunately).
I'm pretty sure that those are not the only countries in the world yet you somehow are fixated on those. Again, this is what's refereed to as "cherry picking".

Quote:
Once again, you've managed to make it apparent to everybody that you don't have an actual argument, one that looks at the "real world" and analyzes it.
Except you are the one who keeps on posting statistics that you have not even shown to be comparable at all. You continue to ignore this for some strange reason.

Quote:
Instead, you are grasping for straws that will somehow justify your idea that Sweden's authoritarian MO of making "tough choices" is the right thing to do when it obviously isn't.
I'm pretty sure it's not considered authoritarian to let people get on with their lives instead of forcibly closing shops and instituting curfews but apparently it is to communists. Freedom is slavery.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 21st April 2020 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:37 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Besides, I've compared Sweden the with the USA as well, which also doesn't seem to please you.)
Yeah that especially does not please me because it's quite well known that the statistics coming from the US are not very accurate. But don't let something like that keep you from cheery picking.

I mean you even cited Donald Trump in good faith. Seriously what the ****.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:52 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have high hopes for Remdesivir:
Antiviral remdesivir prevents disease progression in monkeys with COVID-19 (NIH, April 17, 2020)
As do I

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
By the way, Giesecke does not work for the FHM.
This is not correct. He is currently a paid advisor to FHM. Says so himself in the unherd interview.

Quote:
The "strategy", as in most countries without any ability to institute widespread testing
I haven't checked lately, but when I last did a week or so ago, I remained puzzled why Norway could conduct 3 times as many tests as Sweden with half the population.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
That you don't actually believe in the one phrase you invariably resort to becomes apparent whenever you think the numbers prove you right. There are no problems when you compare Sweden with Belgium, for some weird (but very obvious) reason, but whenever I compare Sweden with the other Scandinavian countries, coronavirus deaths suddenly turn into apples and potatoes.
All mentions of Belgium with regarding to COVID-19 statistics should be required to come with a disclaimer noting that, unlike pretty much everywhere else, and certainly Sweden, they included *suspected deaths* in their statistics.
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Old 21st April 2020, 11:58 AM   #277
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm pretty sure that those are not the only countries in the world yet you somehow are fixated on those. Again, this is what's refereed to as "cherry picking".

Yes, comparing the Scandinavian countries is somehow cherry picking, but comparing Sweden and Belgium isn't. We get it.

Quote:
Except you are the one who keeps on posting statistics that you have not even shown to be comparable at all. You continue to ignore this for some strange reason.

Yes, I am the one who keeps posting statistics, and you are the one who doesn't!
And you are the one who yells "apples and potatoes" (for some weird reason), and yet you have never pointed at anything that would make the number of coronavirus deaths in Denmark, Norway and Sweden incomparable - for some strange (but very obvious) reason.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure it's not considered authoritarian to let people get on with their lives instead of forcibly closing shops and instituting curfews but apparently it is to communists. Freedom is slavery.

No, you are right, it is not considered authoritarian to restrict the people's freedom when it happens because you are trying to contain a virus by preventing people from spreading it. Don't suppress the virus! Contamination is liberty!
(And once again: Norway and Denmark aren't communist countries. It's a delusion to think so.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 12:31 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Yeah that especially does not please me because it's quite well known that the statistics coming from the US are not very accurate. But don't let something like that keep you from cheery picking.

So I guess this means that statistics coming from Norway and Denmark are very accurate? That is worth noticing for future references. By the way, Sweden's statistics on deaths tend to lag behind, especially on weekends, right?!

Quote:
I mean you even cited Donald Trump in good faith. Seriously what the ****.

I did? I'm sure that you have a link to the post where I cited Trump, don't you?!
Seriously!
I'm actually surprised that you appear to be so averse to citing Trump! After all, he and his fellow Republicans seem to be busy trying "to balance the spread of infection and the resultant deaths with the socioeconomic costs of restrictions to commerce and business as well as infringements to personal freedoms."
Isn't Trump the guy who wants to LIBERATE Michigan, Minnesota and Virginia from the tyranny of trying to protect people from the virus?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st April 2020, 01:55 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This article suggests Sweden's strategy is working.
And the other side of the coin: Here's what healthcare workers in Sweden are saying about the coronavirus

From the US but no less relevant:WATCH: Video of Health Care Workers Confronting Anti-Lockdown Protestors Goes Viral

There were two of the healthcare workers.

The protestor in the car was yelling go to China. Do you suppose she has a clue about the Tiananmen Square tank photo?

Has anyone in Sweden asked the healthcare workers if they feel the policy might be putting some of them at risk?
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Old 21st April 2020, 02:48 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
This is not correct. He is currently a paid advisor to FHM. Says so himself in the unherd interview.
Fine.

Quote:
I haven't checked lately, but when I last did a week or so ago, I remained puzzled why Norway could conduct 3 times as many tests as Sweden with half the population.
Well it must be because there's an incredible conspiracy by the FHM to deceive the government, parliament and the public.

I mean that is what you are alleging is occurring, because on one hand "the Swedish strategy" is supposedly about infecting as many people as possible and get herd immunity and yet they are calling on people to "stay at home at the slightest sign of illness, keep away from others and being careful about hand hygiene". That damn Anders and his conspiratorial co-conspirators are subjecting Sweden to a terrifying experiment and they are not even honest about it!
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 21st April 2020 at 02:52 PM.
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