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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 6th May 2020, 06:37 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
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Jogging in Georgia while black.

A black man, Ahmaud Arbery, was shot dead while out for a jog in Georgia after being confronted by two armed white men attempting a citizen's arrest.

The two white men set up a roadblock with their truck and confronted the unarmed Arbery. In the brief exchange, Arbery struggled with one of the men over a shotgun, and was shot dead.

local GA law enforcement ruled this an acceptable case of self defense, despite little to no evidence that Arbery was doing anything suspicious that would justify armed men attempting to apprehend him.

Public outcry, including from Joe Biden, has lead to the case being sent over to the Grand Jury for possible indictment.

CNN managed to get their hands on video of the incident and it's hard to see this as anything but a broad-daylight murder.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/05/u...m_source=twCNN

Quote:
At best, the men had the authority to follow Arbery and send law enforcement to that location, Merritt said. The 911 calls show the call taker was asking the men what Arbery is doing that was of criminal concern, Merritt said.
"They didn't give any answer for that, they said, 'He's a black man running down our road,'" Merritt said.
According to GA prosecutors that passed on the case, murdering unarmed black men for refusing to explain why they are jogging on white roads is not a crime. The DA watched this video and decided that there wasn't probable cause for an arrest.

One of the killers is a former police officer.
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Old 6th May 2020, 06:43 AM   #2
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Like a trip through Taliban controlled Afghanistan or something.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:30 AM   #3
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"white roads"?!
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:31 AM   #4
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The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.
So your argument is the video is some sort of deep fake?

A truck load of people saw the black guy choking while jogging so they all jumped out and try to all perform the heimlich on him at once?

What exactly, and please be precise (precise, no vaguary about "waiting to here the whole story" unless you're willing to present a version of this story that isn't insane), are you "skeptical" about?
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:44 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.
Did you read the story? Have you seen the video? I suspect not.
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Old 6th May 2020, 07:58 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.
Please, elaborate, what should we be skeptical about in this story ?

Appears to be a well documented murder, imo.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The most enjoyable part of being a member of ISF is watching the "OMG-America-is-so-racist" social justice mob fall for stories like this without being the least bit skeptical before they work themselves into a frenzy and step directly on the rake laid out in front of them and get whacked right in the face.

Never gets old.
Hey, maybe YOU can tell us what the person was doing that warranted him being shot?

I'm listening.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:20 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Please, elaborate, what should we be skeptical about in this story ?

Appears to be a well documented murder, imo.
No, no, no. Super skeptical means you have to assume that there must have been some reason for him to be shot. You can't question whether they had a good reason to shoot him.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"white roads"?!
Some editorializing from your's truly.

I'm taking the liberty to assume "random black guy that fits the description of some dubious burglary suspect" really means "black guy in the wrong neighborhood".

The verbatim quote from the 911 call is "He's a black man running down our road".
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:23 AM   #11
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Now, what I learned in high school civics class is that a citizen's arrest can only be made when there is a felony in progress. You can absolutely apprehend a burgler who is robbing a bank or robbing your house.

Citizen arrests cannot be made for misdemeanors (so when Barney Fife taught Gomer Pyle that he could do a citizen's arrest for a traffic violation, that was incorrect).

So the question is, what felony was this person committing that warranted a citizen's arrest?
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:23 AM   #12
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There is a video at this link, but it will not play for me. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ahmaud-...hooting-video/

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Old 6th May 2020, 08:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Now, what I learned in high school civics class is that a citizen's arrest can only be made when there is a felony in progress. You can absolutely apprehend a burgler who is robbing a bank or robbing your house.

Citizen arrests cannot be made for misdemeanors (so when Barney Fife taught Gomer Pyle that he could do a citizen's arrest for a traffic violation, that was incorrect).

So the question is, what felony was this person committing that warranted a citizen's arrest?
The claim of the killers is that this man matches the description of a suspicious person (potential burglar) seen on previous nights.

Even if you grant their extremely dubious claim, there is no evidence that Arbery was committing a crime or fleeing a crime scene at the time of the killing.

DA's opinion on the matter:

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...ull.pdf#page=1

The DA's decision not to prosecute gives the two killers an absurdly generous reading of what constitutes probable cause for a citizen's arrest. I see no mention of any evidence that Arbery was fleeing a crime other than the killer's claim that he matches the description of a suspicious person from a previous event.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:33 AM   #14
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For those who didn't see the vid or have trouble loading CNN on mobile:

No one says anything about 'white road's.

The video is filmed by someone else chasing down the action. I would think this shows that there was some run up prior to the shooting (do you typically film while driving down roads?)

The truck is stopped in the road and the jogger, Arbery in white shirt, is running up from behind it. Jethro with the shotgun is outside, in the front of the truck, drivers side. Arbery veers around to the passenger side, still running, then runs over to grab Jethro with the gun. That's probably where the self defense angle comes from.

Although I can't imagine what interpretation of Georgia law allows Jethro to be in the street with a loaded shotgun. Would have to be equally self defense for Arbery, no? Hillbilly accosting you with a shotgun in the street should put a brother in fear of imminent grave harm, yes?
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For those who didn't see the vid or have trouble loading CNN on mobile:

No one says anything about 'white road's.

The video is filmed by someone else chasing down the action. I would think this shows that there was some run up prior to the shooting (do you typically film while driving down roads?)

The truck is stopped in the road and the jogger, Arbery in white shirt, is running up from behind it. Jethro with the shotgun is outside, in the front of the truck, drivers side. Arbery veers around to the passenger side, still running, then runs over to grab Jethro with the gun. That's probably where the self defense angle comes from.

Although I can't imagine what interpretation of Georgia law allows Jethro to be in the street with a loaded shotgun. Would have to be equally self defense for Arbery, no? Hillbilly accosting you with a shotgun in the street should put a brother in fear of imminent grave harm, yes?
"White roads" is my editorializing. Sorry that was unclear.

GA has a citizens arrest law, but it is pretty clearly limited to those fleeing a crime scene witnessed by the people trying to apprehend. I can't see how this black man matching the description of a suspicious person from a previous night meets this requirement.
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Old 6th May 2020, 08:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"White roads" is my editorializing. Sorry that was unclear.

GA has a citizens arrest law, but it is pretty clearly limited to those fleeing a crime scene. I can't see how this black man matching the description of a suspicious person from a previous night meets this requirement.
Even via citizen's arrest, no felony was taking place. Just wandering around with a shotgun on the streets or even in the car strikes me as surely illegal? CCW for a handgun is one thing, but this seems like a whole nuther level. Cel not cooperating to Google Ga law.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:08 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Even via citizen's arrest, no felony was taking place. Just wandering around with a shotgun on the streets or even in the car strikes me as surely illegal? CCW for a handgun is one thing, but this seems like a whole nuther level. Cel not cooperating to Google Ga law.
The DA's analysis goes roughly like this:

1) They were lawful to pursue and apprehend because of the citizens arrest law (biggest whopper, IMO)

2) Open carry of long guns is legal. (no mention that open carrying does not allow brandishing, which this clearly was)

3) Self defense with no duty to retreat is legal, so it was acceptable to shoot once the scuffle for the shotgun started. (Arbery has the much stronger self-defense claim)

The DA is bending over backwards to grant these people the benefit of these laws.

Trying to apprehend someone that you think matches the description from a previous crime does not meet the reasonable standard of the citizens arrest. There is no reporting that Arbery was witnessed committing a crime on the day of the shooting, he was out for a jog. Calling this a hot pursuit of someone fleeing a crime, as the DA does, is absurd on its face.

Blocking the road and displaying firearms is obviously not open carry, but brandishing. They were chasing him, displaying firearms, and demanding Arbery surrender himself to their custody. Arbery was within his lawful right to interpret this is a lethal threat and fight with any means available to him.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:17 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The DA's analysis goes roughly like this:

1) They were lawful to pursue and apprehend because of the citizens arrest law (biggest whopper, IMO)

2) Open carry of long guns is legal. (no mention that open carrying does not allow brandishing, which this clearly was)

3) Self defense with no duty to retreat is legal, so it was acceptable to shoot once the scuffle for the shotgun started. (Arbery has the much stronger self-defense claim)

The DA is bending over backwards to grant these people the benefit of these laws.

Trying to apprehend someone that you think matches the description from a previous crime does not meet the reasonable standard of the citizens arrest. There is no reporting that Arbery was witnessed committing a crime on the day of the shooting, he was out for a jog.

Blocking the road and displaying firearms is obviously not open carry, but brandishing and clearly a threat, and Arbery was within his lawful right to interpret this is a lethal threat and fight with any means available to him.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. I think it likely that the rednecks did think Arbery matched the description of a previously reported 'suspicious person' though. Makes more sense than randomly attacking joggers. Still not justified by a long shot, but a little different than being on a 'white road'.

Really want to know who was filming and why. Jumping in the car and running video indicates there was a previous interaction with enough time passed to do that. Friend of the hillbillies that knew what was coming? Bystander who witnessed some previous exchange?
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:20 AM   #19
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It's gonna be the "LOL I went into the wrong apartment, oopsie daisy then I feared for my life" argument again.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:25 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too. I think it likely that the rednecks did think Arbery matched the description of a previously reported 'suspicious person' though. Makes more sense than randomly attacking joggers. Still not justified by a long shot, but a little different than being on a 'white road'.

Really want to know who was filming and why. Jumping in the car and running video indicates there was a previous interaction with enough time passed to do that. Friend of the hillbillies that knew what was coming? Bystander who witnessed some previous exchange?
My comment about "white road" comes from a quote from the 911 call.

The dispatcher asked what Arbery was doing to be warrant apprehension, and the response was

"He's a black guy running down our road".

This guy was a former cop, he has enough sense to write up the report so that it has some veneer of legitimacy. I have a feeling that once we scratch the surface, much more nefarious motives will be revealed.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's gonna be the "LOL I went into the wrong apartment, oopsie daisy then I feared for my life" argument again.
This one seems even worse. "He fought back when we tried to murder him, so we feared for our lives!"
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This one seems even worse. "He fought back when we tried to murder him, so we feared for our lives!"
"we tried to scare this black guy into never coming to our neighborhood again, but he fought back so we had to shoot him"
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:40 AM   #23
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I have also not seen the video, but a report I read says that the video pretty unequivocally shows that a shot was fired before the altercation in which the man was then murdered.

It is this initial shot at the jogger while he was jogging that changes this case from an arrest gone wrong to an outright murder, if not a lynching.

The first report I saw of this suggested that there would be no prosecution, but I see from the one cited here that this case will now be sent to a grand jury. Thank goodness for eyewitness videos to counteract the outright lies of the police.

I think Bogative is all wet here. There is plenty of evidence that this was an unlawful act on the part of the shooters, that the victim was innocent, and that the police initially lied about the incident. Even if you can't see the video, others surely have, including, apparently, Georgia television viewers. The decision of the DA to prosecute, and the Governor to provide resources, should, I think, be given due weight.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My comment about "white road" comes from a quote from the 911 call.

The dispatcher asked what Arbery was doing to be warrant apprehension, and the response was

"He's a black guy running down our road".
Not busting your chops about 'white road's. You know how a small editorializing can shift a narrative. It's not like they made such a claim, which would be shocking to say the least.

I'm inclined to think this was an ex cop who still thought he was a cop. I'd also like to know what this description was that Arbery was said to match. 'Big black guy', maybe? Not remotely good enough to start brandishing shotguns. Sounds like an ex cop who thinks black guy's are second class citizens who are all 'suspects' till proven not shot.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:44 AM   #25
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The "I feared for my life" card is legit in some (perhaps many or even most) context. I'm fully on team "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

But you can't put yourself, either intentionally or through your own stupidity/ignorance, into situations where people are going to reasonably react to your actions and then pull the "I feared for my life" card on their reasonable reactions.

Someone is going to react to a pump of people jumping out of their truck and dogpiling them while they are out going for a job. You cannot use that response (at least soley) for the "OMG I feared for my life" excuse.

Otherwise white people are just going to keep screwing with black people and when black people get angry for being screwed it, killing them because their anger made them "fear for their life."
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I have also not seen the video, but a report I read says that the video pretty unequivocally shows that a shot was fired before the altercation in which the man was then murdered.

It is this initial shot at the jogger while he was jogging that changes this case from an arrest gone wrong to an outright murder, if not a lynching.

The first report I saw of this suggested that there would be no prosecution, but I see from the one cited here that this case will now be sent to a grand jury. Thank goodness for eyewitness videos to counteract the outright lies of the police.

I think Bogative is all wet here. There is plenty of evidence that this was an unlawful act on the part of the shooters, that the victim was innocent, and that the police initially lied about the incident. Even if you can't see the video, others surely have, including, apparently, Georgia television viewers. The decision of the DA to prosecute, and the Governor to provide resources, should, I think, be given due weight.
I've watched the video. As Arbery runs past the armed roadblock, the driver with the shotgun approaches him and Arbery turns sharply and charges him to wrestle over the shotgun.

I think it's still murder regardless of whether the man only shot after Arbery attacked him. They set up an armed roadblock and were brandishing firearms while demanding he stop. Arbery has a clear self-defense claim as an unarmed man on foot being chased by armed men in a truck. Arbery would have been justified to kill both of them had he the means. In a better world, he would have successfully wrestled the shotgun away and killed them both.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My comment about "white road" comes from a quote from the 911 call.

The dispatcher asked what Arbery was doing to be warrant apprehension, and the response was

"He's a black guy running down our road".
TBF, "our road" is vastly different from "white road".
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:53 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not busting your chops about 'white road's. You know how a small editorializing can shift a narrative. It's not like they made such a claim, which would be shocking to say the least.

I'm inclined to think this was an ex cop who still thought he was a cop. I'd also like to know what this description was that Arbery was said to match. 'Big black guy', maybe? Not remotely good enough to start brandishing shotguns. Sounds like an ex cop who thinks black guy's are second class citizens who are all 'suspects' till proven not shot.
You may be technically right that they did not say "white roads," but it might depend a little on whether "our road" has any blacks on it. If an unidentified black man, labelled by his blackness, is considered an invader on "our road" it is pretty obvious that "our road" is not one frequented by black people.

I know you sometimes consider non-racist as the default position unless there's other proof, a position that's often unpopular and sometimes right, but I think in this case it's reasonable to presume the reverse.
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
This one seems even worse. "He fought back when we tried to murder him, so we feared for our lives!"
The sad, scary part is you're not joking.

"What kind of world do we live in where decent God fearing gun-toting white people can't even murder an unarmed black person, in broad daylight with a 2 on 1 advantage, without fearing for our lives?"
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Old 6th May 2020, 09:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's gonna be the "LOL I went into the wrong apartment, oopsie daisy then I feared for my life" argument again.
Quite so.

I have found the rationale goes along like this:

I made a mistake in thinking that the guy I killed was actually a guy that was going to kill/hurt me.

As a result, I killed him before he could possibly demonstrate his innocence because when I killed him I was still thinking that going to kill/hurt me.

Therefore, this is clear case of self-defense because when I killed him, I really did think that he was going to kill/hurt me.


I do not know how people get away with this crap, but they do all the time.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You may be technically right that they did not say "white roads," but it might depend a little on whether "our road" has any blacks on it. If an unidentified black man, labelled by his blackness, is considered an invader on "our road" it is pretty obvious that "our road" is not one frequented by black people.

I know you sometimes consider non-racist as the default position unless there's other proof, a position that's often unpopular and sometimes right, but I think in this case it's reasonable to presume the reverse.
As Ron Obvious noted above, there is a world of difference.

'On our road, the one on which we live, we haven't seen a black man in 50 years, except for a recently reported burglary suspect'

is quite a bit different from

'This is a white road, where we gun down darkies'

The rednecks are in the wrong either way, but very different in motivations. The devil is in the spin.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:10 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As Ron Obvious noted above, there is a world of difference.

'On our road, the one on which we live, we haven't seen a black man in 50 years, except for a recently reported burglary suspect'

is quite a bit different from

'This is a white road, where we gun down darkies'

The rednecks are in the wrong either way, but very different in motivations. The devil is in the spin.
Really splitting the racism hair here. Arbery is black, and since we live in a neighborhood with only white folk, he must be the same black man we suspect is committing crimes in the area. Even if these guys aren't klan members, clearly they were making some assumptions about Arbery based on him being a black man. These assumptions, combined with their DIY approach to law enforcement, lead to his death.

I have a feeling that Arbery matched the description of the suspect in the same way that all young black men fit the description of the suspect.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:15 AM   #33
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How is one supposed to make a citizens arrest if the person doesn't stop?
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:22 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How is one supposed to make a citizens arrest if the person doesn't stop?
Why is someone supposed to make a citizens arrest in the absence of a crime?

Could an actual cop have arrested Arbery for anything?

No crime = no cause for arrest, citizen or LEO. The rednecks waved their guns around. Arbery took a run at shotgun boy. This was not ending well in any scenario.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why is someone supposed to make a citizens arrest in the absence of a crime?

Could an actual cop have arrested Arbery for anything?

No crime = no cause for arrest, citizen or LEO. The rednecks waved their guns around. Arbery took a run at shotgun boy. This was not ending well in any scenario.
I have no opinion on your first question.

As to your second question, cops are generally protected if they arrest someone for a suspected crime that they incorrectly suspect.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:28 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no opinion on your first question.

As to your second question, cops are generally protected if they arrest someone for a suspected crime that they incorrectly suspect.
Citizens arrest is widely understood to be a legally risky proposition. Private citizens are not granted the same broad immunity to make mistakes of fact like the police.

A private citizen is facing a lot more strict liability than a cop.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it likely that the rednecks did think Arbery matched the description of a previously reported 'suspicious person' though.
What was the description, and did he really match it? In more than skin colour, I mean.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:37 AM   #38
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"I came home and found this person breaking into my house, I'm going to hold him until the police come" is one thing.

"Somebody broke into my house so and my neighbor said the guy was looked like this one guy so I went to this one guys house with a shotgun to arrest him" is a whole 'other.

And even the first one is questionable.
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Old 6th May 2020, 10:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What was the description, and did he really match it? In more than skin colour, I mean.
According to the statement given to the responding police officer, they claimed to recognize Arbery from a security camera footage of previous nighttime break-ins.

There is no indication that anyone thought that Arbery was fleeing a fresh crime. They spotted him running down the road and thought it was their guy from "the other night" and gave chase.

The police record: https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...mized/full.pdf

I can't see how this meets the requirements for citizens arrest. They did not witness Arbery committing a crime when they decided to chase him.
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Old 6th May 2020, 11:01 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Citizens arrest is widely understood to be a legally risky proposition. Private citizens are not granted the same broad immunity to make mistakes of fact like the police.

A private citizen is facing a lot more strict liability than a cop.
So far, these clowns have faced no liability at all, with the cops prosecutors doing backflips to let them off the hook. It's George Zimmerman all over again.
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