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Tags antifa , protest incidents

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Old 2nd June 2020, 05:39 AM   #1
dann
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Another Antifa Call for Violence

After years of this, brought to our attention by the unbiased readers of news in this forum:

Antifa Thug Breaks Leg of Opposing Demonstrator - Police Do Nothing
Journalist attacked by violent mob
He brought an American flag to protest fascism in Portland. Then antifa attacked him
Antifa's Honeymoon Coming to an end
Antifa Bike Lock Attacker Identified and Arrested College Professor

Now the violent antifas are at it again. (CNN, June 2, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 2nd June 2020, 05:42 AM   #2
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The latest fake antifa account was an obvious fraud to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the activist left in this country, but that's not really relevant. These false flag operations exist so that dimwits and bad-faith propagandists in the media can spread a false narrative.

There is no national antifa organization. Explicit antifa activists are disorganized, hyper-local, and leaderless. The idea that there are enough antifa or other militant, armed leftists in this country to account for all the violent demonstrations of the last few weeks is absurd on its face. Thousands of people are taking to the streets in cities all across the country. Antifa could never dream of such numbers.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 05:47 AM   #3
dann
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antics was, of course, a word processing error.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 07:08 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Explicit antifa activists are disorganized, hyper-local, and leaderless. The idea that there are enough antifa or other militant, armed leftists in this country to account for all the violent demonstrations of the last few weeks is absurd on its face. Thousands of people are taking to the streets in cities all across the country. Antifa could never dream of such numbers.
I've seen very narrow defintions of antifa like the one posted above and very broad definitions like this one, designed to include anyone who fights against fascism in any form. I've heard the argument that if you're not pro-fascist, you must be anti-fascist. How can one tell whether to use the narrow version or the broad one when discussing such things?



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Old 2nd June 2020, 07:08 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've seen very narrow defintions of antifa like the one posted above and very broad definitions like this one. How can I tell whether to use the narrow version or the broad one when discussing such things?



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Both definitions are correct. You are antifa if you consider yourself to be antifa and you are anti-fascist.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 07:22 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've seen very narrow defintions of antifa like the one posted above and very broad definitions like this one, designed to include anyone who fights against fascism in any form. I've heard the argument that if you're not pro-fascist, you must be anti-fascist. How can one tell whether to use the narrow version or the broad one when discussing such things?



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Sure, but right wing idiots use antifa as a noun. Antifa, as you describe it, is an adjective. It describes a loose collection of ideology and attitudes.

The president is talking about labeling Antifa a terrorist group. This implies a level of organization and formality that simply does not exist in the real world. You can no more declare antifa the enemy than you can declare progressivism or leftism the enemy.

This is merely a propaganda tactic. Anyone insufficiently right wing will be declared antifa. Anyone protesting, violently or nonviolently, will be labeled an antifa terrorist.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 07:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You can no more declare antifa the enemy than you can declare progressivism or leftism the enemy.
Hands up anyone who thinks Trump would never do exactly that.

Dave
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Old 2nd June 2020, 07:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Agreed; peaceful behavior is the default under normal circumstances. But!
Quote:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these nonwhite citizens; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of GOP Fanboys is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over all nonwhites. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
See the myriad direct challenges to all checks and balances in order to institute the kind of white nationalist rule Trump believes he has an "absolute" right to.

Time for American white men to "have that conversation":
Quote:
Kiddo, normal people do not like you. It's not your color or race. It's your national origin. It ties you to crimes against humanity. That somehow has a good number of decent people up in arms. Best if you stay home and not travel abroad, at least until such time as enough of us have faced a tribunal and answered for our many crimes, which, sadly, even pristine holy-genes white men must do. Meantime, do not wear any red headgear or show any sort of GOP credentials to people who know how to read."
Widerstand gegen den Nationalsozialismus
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Old 2nd June 2020, 08:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, but right wing idiots use antifa as a noun. Antifa, as you describe it, is an adjective. It describes a loose collection of ideology and attitudes.

The president is talking about labeling Antifa a terrorist group. This implies a level of organization and formality that simply does not exist in the real world. You can no more declare antifa the enemy than you can declare progressivism or leftism the enemy.

This is merely a propaganda tactic. Anyone insufficiently right wing will be declared antifa. Anyone protesting, violently or nonviolently, will be labeled an antifa terrorist.

Maybe dann could try calling Antifa headquarters and politely ask them to stop.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 09:50 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The president is talking about labeling Antifa a terrorist group. This implies a level of organization and formality that simply does not exist in the real world. You can no more declare antifa the enemy than you can declare progressivism or leftism the enemy.

I suspect that may be the point, if you declare a group with no organized structure, official membership, or leaders to be a terrorist group, then anybody could potentially be classified as a member.
There was a law enforcement procedural in which a federal agent conducting an interrogation told the suspect something like "I just have to say the word "terrorist", and ten years from now you'll be trying to remember what sunlight looks like."
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:01 AM   #11
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How do we know there isn't an organized core to Antifa? Would we have any way to know if we aren't at the centre of this? Hypothetically, if they are responsible for all those pallets of bricks and gasoline hidden all over these cities, then there is at least some level of organization and coordination there.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:10 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
How do we know there isn't an organized core to Antifa? Would we have any way to know if we aren't at the centre of this? Hypothetically, if they are responsible for all those pallets of bricks and gasoline hidden all over these cities, then there is at least some level of organization and coordination there.
I know its all DUN DUN The Jews again!
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:27 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
How do we know there isn't an organized core to Antifa? Would we have any way to know if we aren't at the centre of this? Hypothetically, if they are responsible for all those pallets of bricks and gasoline hidden all over these cities, then there is at least some level of organization and coordination there.
The fact that they're anarcho-communists suggests that a large degree of centralised organisation is not the likeliest of options.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:34 AM   #14
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The fact that they're anarcho-communists suggests that a large degree of centralised organisation is not the likeliest of options.
some or.
other's aren't.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:40 AM   #15
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Who actually thinks a brick is a useful size to throw any distance?
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:40 AM   #16
dann
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Both definitions are correct. You are antifa if you consider yourself to be antifa and you are anti-fascist.

This is still the best presentation of antifa I've seen:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
(7 min.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:43 AM   #17
dann
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
How do we know there isn't an organized core to Antifa?
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Maybe dann could try calling Antifa headquarters and politely ask them to stop.

I am antifa!
And so is my wife!
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:45 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
some or.
other's aren't.
I feel like I need to meditate on this in order to gain great wisdom.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 10:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Who actually thinks a brick is a useful size to throw any distance?
You don't have to throw it any distance if you're breaking windows.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 11:13 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Who actually thinks a brick is a useful size to throw any distance?
They aren't generally intended to be long range ballistic projectiles.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 11:43 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The fact that they're anarcho-communists suggests that a large degree of centralised organisation is not the likeliest of options.
Years ago I watched a documentary about the Findhorn commune. All their decisions were supposed to be communal. It was full of hippie types who didn't want to impose their decisions on others or take responsibility, and would talk and talk without deciding anything. At the end of the day everything ended up being decided in practice by this one decisive woman. She never presented what she was doing in this way, so everybody got to pretend/not realize that she was really their boss.

Just because Antifa claim to be/believe themselves to be/mostly are anarcho-communists doesn't mean that in practice a relatively small number of people aren't making the important decisions. Who knows? Not us. Presumably the FBI have a pretty good idea.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 11:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don't have to throw it any distance if you're breaking windows.
And you don't need a brick to break a window.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 11:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
They aren't generally intended to be long range ballistic projectiles.
True, they are intended for construction. They are useless as projectiles and unnecessary as window-breaking materials. Which is probably why the pictures of them we've seen so far have always been next to construction sites (an unpaved part of the sidewalk and a building reconstructions site for the two pictures I've seen so far).
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:47 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The latest fake antifa account was an obvious fraud to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the activist left in this country, but that's not really relevant. These false flag operations exist so that dimwits and bad-faith propagandists in the media can spread a false narrative.
That is correct. The fake antifa account wasn't intended to fool "actual" supposed antifa people into doing anything; it was intended to be pointed at by those opposed to the BLM protests to say "look what antifa just said, look what they're going to do now".
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And you don't need a brick to break a window.
But if you don't have anything on you and there's one nearby, you can certainly use it.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And you don't need a brick to break a window.
And you don't need a gun to kill someone. But if that's your goal, they're useful tools for each.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:50 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But if you don't have anything on you and there's one nearby, you can certainly use it.
Or, the protesters are going to build walls to protect themselves from the police!
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:55 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But if you don't have anything on you and there's one nearby, you can certainly use it.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And you don't need a gun to kill someone. But if that's your goal, they're useful tools for each.
Breaking windows is trivial, there's always something around to do it with. A chair, a dustbin, some rocks or sticks lying around, someone who brought a hammer or some other objects, ... Of all the windows that have been broken during these events, I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find one that was broken with a brick.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:08 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The latest fake antifa account was an obvious fraud to anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the activist left in this country, but that's not really relevant. These false flag operations exist so that dimwits and bad-faith propagandists in the media can spread a false narrative.
This is definitely true. In some cases, lefty jokes in the style of "Conservatives would actually believe something this stupid," inadvertently wind up actually tricking conservatives into believing it. The modern American right is beyond parody.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:09 PM   #30
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Years ago I watched a documentary about the Findhorn commune. All their decisions were supposed to be communal. It was full of hippie types who didn't want to impose their decisions on others or take responsibility, and would talk and talk without deciding anything. At the end of the day everything ended up being decided in practice by this one decisive woman. She never presented what she was doing in this way, so everybody got to pretend/not realize that she was really their boss.

Just because Antifa claim to be/believe themselves to be/mostly are anarcho-communists doesn't mean that in practice a relatively small number of people aren't making the important decisions. Who knows? Not us. Presumably the FBI have a pretty good idea.
Is there a central committee that funds and organizes all neighborhood watches globally?
You really seem to have no idea what Antifa is.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:16 PM   #31
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It is a common bourgeois error to assume that only intact bricks may be used as missiles. The half-brick is much to be preferred.

The only difficulty lies in obtaining a sufficient quantity of half-bricks at the correct time (immediately before the planned civic action) and without the need to transport and, critically, to distribute them to the civic actors. The solution is to create them on-site, and I cannot over-stress the necessity of training brick-breakers, preferably teams of three comrades, to carry out this task.

A stockpile of bricks (preferably loose, but pallets are acceptable) provides everything needed. Position two bricks on pavement or hard earth, parallel and a little less than a brick-length apart. Lay the brick to be broken across them, broad side uppermost. Strike the midpoint of this with the end of an intact brick; strike hard, as if at the thick skull of a boss or one of his goons. The target brick will break into approximately equal pieces which can be thrown as far as as a police grenade. When a few arm- or pack-loads of missiles have been accumulated, two workers can begin running them to the front line while a single breaker produces more. Team members should alternate tasks, to avoid fatigue and to hinder identification by establishment spies.

Practice these simple and effective tactics, comrades! Shatter their bricks tonight, and tomorrow we shall shatter their state!

In a later post, I will discuss slings, staff-slings, and, time permitting, trebuchets. Solidarity.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:22 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Breaking windows is trivial, there's always something around to do it with. A chair, a dustbin, some rocks or sticks lying around, someone who brought a hammer or some other objects, ... Of all the windows that have been broken during these events, I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find one that was broken with a brick.
Here is a video showing people breaking second-story windows with bricks, over and over and over. So, not hard-pressed in the least.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:36 PM   #33
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If they can back-trace Covid, they can back trace violent demonstrators. Find the first one to call his buddies, and prosecute him, for ALL damages. Including murder if anybody died.

But he prepared to hear the Left howl if Trump does it.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:41 PM   #34
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Didn't somebody organise buses for the "peaceful demonstrators" re: Michael Brown?

You know, those peaceful demonstrators that brought along gas masks, clubs, and spray cans to commit property damage? Those kind of peaceniks.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 01:56 PM   #35
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Is there a central committee that funds and organizes all neighborhood watches globally?
You really seem to have no idea what Antifa is.
Globally probably not. Relatively few things are organized globally. Nationally, probably in some countries, and not in others. Internationally, sure, somewhat... there is a European Neighbourhood Watch organization for example. In the UK Neighbourhood Watch is funded by government and is absolutely centrally coordinated. This seems like a pointless train of thought. The domain it is helpful to coordinate over kind of depends on the domain over which you need coordinated action.

Upthread people are defining antifa as anybody who is against fascists and also as anarcho-communists. That sounds like an outer ring of hangers on, and an inner more committed core. Perhaps there are other people even closer to the centre. Unless we are close to the centre of it, we can't know to what extent the various groups calling themselves antifa are organized. How could we possibly know?

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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
If they can back-trace Covid, they can back trace violent demonstrators. Find the first one to call his buddies, and prosecute him, for ALL damages. Including murder if anybody died.

But he prepared to hear the Left howl if Trump does it.

If Trump does what exactly?
Apparently nobody on the Right are upset about Donald Trump Jr. retweeting the white supremacists' tweet as proof that antifa is a terrorist organization.
This is absolutely despicable, and it doesn't bother you at all, does it?!

CNN: White supremacist group poses as Antifa on Twitter

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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Unless we are close to the centre of it, we can't know to what extent the various groups calling themselves antifa are organized. How could we possibly know?

What we can know is that this tweet was sent by white supremacists, not by antifa.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:10 PM   #38
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Breaking windows is trivial, there's always something around to do it with. A chair, a dustbin, some rocks or sticks lying around, someone who brought a hammer or some other objects, ... Of all the windows that have been broken during these events, I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find one that was broken with a brick.
Here is a video showing people breaking second-story windows with bricks, over and over and over. So, not hard-pressed in the least.

Your discussion makes almost as much sense as the discussions of calibers, types of ammo and other gun technicalities every time there's been a new school shooting.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:18 PM   #39
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What we can know is that this tweet was sent by white supremacists, not by antifa.
I don't think anybody is claiming that this has been centrally organized, by what ever that group is behind that Tweet, publicly via Twitter. It has no relevance to what I was saying.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:44 PM   #40
dann
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And what you are saying has no relevance to this thread, which is about white nationalists posing as antifas. At least, we do know who was behind that tweet.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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