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Old 1st August 2020, 05:31 PM   #361
cullennz
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Not sure where get that from.

Wanker. F head. Piece of s (feces). Rear end that starts with a. Soft cock. Scumbag. Tosser Etc etc are hardly referring to females.

And there seem to be many more derogatory words for men than women

As an aside it is really hard to have this discussion without breaking lots of rules.

Mods. If you have to delete this post I apologise and don't mind
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:11 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes, keep insulting people by remote control rather then personally calling out inappropriate behaviour. Very brave of you.
Ahh, so it's perfectly okay to tell a women to shut up just as long as you don't label her behaviour while doing it. Got it.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:21 PM   #363
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It is ok to tell anyone to shut up whenever anyone wants and no matter the sex.

Not that I do it. Especially on the Internet.

You just have to deal with the repercussions if you do it.

When did everyone get so sensitive?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:35 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Ahh, so it's perfectly okay to tell a women to shut up just as long as you don't label her behaviour while doing it. Got it.
What I did say is that it’s better to confront bullies of any gender in the expectation that they stop the bullying and perhaps reflect on their behaviour. I thought that was crystal clear.

Getting on the internet and repeating “Karen, Karen, Karen.....” might make people feel good, but that’s about it.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:17 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What I did say is that it’s better to confront bullies of any gender in the expectation that they stop the bullying and perhaps reflect on their behaviour. I thought that was crystal clear.
Isn't that exactly what calling said bully a karen does? It points out and tries to get them to reflect on their behaviour as being stereotypical of the label, and try and get them to decide that if they want to stop getting labelled as such they might need to stop the entitled and bullying asshatery. It seems that you are okay with that idea just as long as no label is used. In this basis we should all be saying "You know, you're kind of a thoroughly unlikable person who is cruel, rude, or small-minded!" instead of "You know, you're kind of a jerk."

Quote:
Getting on the internet and repeating “Karen, Karen, Karen.....” might make people feel good, but that’s about it.
Considering the results that have come from it, I'd say that it does a lot more these days.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:44 PM   #366
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BTW....

For those that keep asking about the origins....

It seems that the Karen meme as it is today has four parts to the origin.

In 2004 in Mean Girls, Amanda Seyfried plays the part of Karen Smith. In one part of the movie Karen asks a fellow student a question to do with their race..

Originally Posted by Mean Girls (2004)
Karen: If you're from Africa, why are you white?
Gretchen: Oh my God, Karen, you can't just ask people why they're white.
A year later Dana Cook added the following to his comedy routine...

Originally Posted by Dana Cook
Every group has a Karen, and she is always a bag of douche, and when she's not around, you just look at each other and say, 'God, Karen, she's such a douchebag!'
These two things would create their own memes that would combine with with an already well established "Mean White Woman who is nasty to blacks" archetype (This has apparently existed under many different names since pre-US Civil War times), which at the time was known as a "Becky."

In 2014 a new meme arrived on the scene which was the "I want to speak to the Manager Haircut." This was its own meme, but in the 3 years from 2014 to 2017, the "Karen" archetype mene and the haircut merged as well, resulting in the archetype we see today.

I'd also note that there is a male version of a Karen and he is known by various names as there is no currently agreed upon one, but offerings include Kevin, Ken, Richard, Chad, Brad, Brian, Jeremy, and Karlos.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:48 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd also note that there is a male version of a Karen and he is known by various names as there is no currently agreed upon one, but offerings include Kevin, Ken, Richard, Chad, Brad, Brian, Jeremy, and Karlos.
*Desperately trying to dig out of a deep hole by shovelling dirt from the bottom*
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:56 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
*Desperately trying to dig out of a deep hole by shovelling dirt from the bottom*
Jeremiah 5:21
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:15 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
what is the male version of harridan?
Apparently he'd be a curmudgeon.
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:31 PM   #370
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Have to admit I had never heard the word harridan.

I'm guessing apart from this thread I never will again.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:14 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nonsense. You are defending stereotyping, that’s all. Stereotyping is lazy as it simplifies complex and nuanced matters. We are seeing people called Karen because of their hair style. Defend that.

Why should I? I don't agree with it. Besides, I don't even think it's true. At the beginning of the Karen thing, which is obviously about a particular behaviour and/or attitude, the name Karen was used to describe these (at first) women because Karen was a name that was common among that segment of the population: white middle-aged women. A few of them had that hairstyle, so the hairstyle was then referred to as the Karen hairstyle.
In the meantime, we have seen old and young, men and women, most of them without Karen hair, exhibit the kind of behaviour that has become known as being a Karen, and accordingly the reference to the hairstyle as a Karen has more or less died out - as has the hairstyle itself, and I think it was already on the way out, and not because of the meme. Karen hair is mentioned in the Wikipedia article about Karens, but the hairstyle itself doesn't have its own article, unlike, for instance, the mullet (Wikipedia) (It's too bad Trump doesn't have the courage to sport a skullet! )

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yeah, women whose opinion you don’t agree with (sjw, nice stereotyping too) should just shut up and get back into the kitchen.

You make a false abstraction: It was never about women whose opinion people don't agree with it. It is about a very specific kind of obnoxious behaviour in both women and men. There are many more kinds of obnoxious behaviour that wouldn't (in general; I'm not saying that some people don't get it wrong) be referred to as Karens.

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Just to nitpick - in the Bunnings story, that was just...
...the Bunnings “Karen” was not a Karen.
She is an anti-mask CTer and self-proclaimed “activist” who went to 3 stores in order to deliberately confront the store staff and management and hopefully the police with her idiotic opinions.

Just like the Freemen, she soon got tripped up after OTT “I have the right to do what I like” bluster to the police who were called by these stores to remove her from the premises under COVID regulations.

The next day when reporters turned up on her doorstep . . . . she rang the police in order to threaten reporters with trespass to remove them from her property.

Apparently the right to do what you want, however stupid and obnoxious, i.e. entitlement, only extends to herself.

FTFY. She is the Karen of Karens. I don't think it's possible to be more Karen than that - whatever sex, name or hairstyle you have. Karen (pejorative) (Wikipedia).
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:17 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Have to admit I had never heard the word harridan.

Me neither. It seems to be a bit ageist (Cambridge dictionary).
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:17 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Apparently he'd be a curmudgeon.
No. Close, but a curmudgeon can be quite happy carrying out his job alone where a harridan is sticking her nose into other people’s business.

Harridan - an unpleasant woman, especially an older one, who is often angry and often tells other people what to do

Curmudgeon- bad-tempered person, especially an old one

But you must get my point. How often are men told they are shrill?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:42 AM   #374
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Maybe it isn't something you usually tell people, but try googling "shrill guy": About 1.610 results.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:48 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No. Close, but a curmudgeon can be quite happy carrying out his job alone where a harridan is sticking her nose into other people’s business.

Harridan - an unpleasant woman, especially an older one, who is often angry and often tells other people what to do

Curmudgeon- bad-tempered person, especially an old one

But you must get my point. How often are men told they are shrill?
Probably not a lot because it means high pitched and dudes have deeper voices than women.

Do you not think this might be the reason?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:55 AM   #376
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Have heard plenty of blokes called boorish, loutish, examples of toxic masculinity etc though, but I guess they don't count.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 2nd August 2020, 02:10 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Have to admit I had never heard the word harridan.

I'm guessing apart from this thread I never will again.
Not unless you build a time machine and go back a century or so. I've only ever seen it in older literature.

And I'm no woman has ever been named Harridan. Not in English, anyway.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 02:56 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not unless you build a time machine and go back a century or so. I've only ever seen it in older literature.

And I'm no woman has ever been named Harridan. Not in English, anyway.
I never claimed it was a woman’s name. I put it out there with words like harpy and now Karen as shorthand for “shut up woman”.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:00 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I never claimed it was a woman’s name. I put it out there with words like harpy and now Karen as shorthand for “shut up woman”.
I'm still missing how loutish, larackin, and boorish aren't the same with men.

Women don't have a monopoly on being called names when they talk lots of ****
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:16 AM   #380
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The stereotyping shames the behavior being seen, it's a good thing.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:29 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
When they hound people in public like prima donnas, bother the manager etc, they get what they deserve, it has nothing to do with this attempt to paint it as chauvanism, there are male karens to, the title isnt the stereotyping tradegy some want it to be, it is fitting and deserved.
I think most people are just complaining about the word used, not the fact that there's a stereotype. I don't care about the stereotyping (although including the haircut seems really stupid) - just, why do they have to be called karens? Why not "prima donnas" as you keep saying or something else like that.

Reading through this thread is odd, because one gets the impression people aren't actually reading their opponent's posts. There's like fifty different arguments happening at once.

The issue is that the stereotype uses a common name as a pejorative, not that the stereotype exists.

Yeah, yeah, other names exist as pejoratives. I know, y'all mentioned that a few times. *Engage broken record program* - None of them have the popularity of "karen;" the pejorative "dick" has been around for decades, so any Richard choosing to go by that is doing it with full knowledge; "john" is an absurd one to even include and weakens your overall argument, because nobody makes fun of people for being called john. "Chad" and "stacey" are equally rude as karen, I hate those terms, but they also aren't anywhere near as widely known as karen.

Repeat, repeat, repeat. I feel like a bot now.

The fact that "karen" is as popular a meme as it is right now means it will burn out fairly soon, regardless. But the name will still be tainted for awhile.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:40 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In no way comparable. I didn’t say there weren’t words to insult men. Apart from the never used word Chad, none of these are words designed to tell men to shut up.
All of them are designed to tell men to shut up. The whole point of these derogatory terms is to dismiss a man and invalidate his opinions. That's the whole point of insults generally.

Quote:
ETA what is the male version of harridan?
Harrier.

You're making a fetish of linguistic symmetry, instead of recognizing the same underlying mechanism.

If you were a quantum physicist, you'd be insisting that the electron can't have the opposite charge from a proton because they don't have exactly the same mass.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:23 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
BTW....

For those that keep asking about the origins....

It seems that the Karen meme as it is today has four parts to the origin.

In 2004 in Mean Girls, Amanda Seyfried plays the part of Karen Smith. In one part of the movie Karen asks a fellow student a question to do with their race..



A year later Dana Cook added the following to his comedy routine...
I think you mean Dane Cook. And if Dane Cook started this or helped start the karen thing then I'm officially out!!! No longer will I use the word karen for anything other than a person's name.


**** you, Dane Cook, you suck!



Heh! "Ever notice how bathroom floors are always wet?"

Quote:
the Associated Press wasn't so sure, publishing an article in 2006 titled, "Is Dane Cook Funny?" (its answer wasn't entirely yes). The harshest critics were other comedians who couldn't fathom why Cook's seemingly jokeless material ("Ever notice how bathroom floors are always wet?") could fill up arenas.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/fe...meback-1185532

End Rant

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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:25 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I think you mean Dane Cook. And if Dane Cook started this or helped start the karen thing then I'm officially out!!! No longer will I use the word karen for anything other than a person's name.


**** you, Dane Cook, you suck!
The good news is that you know if Dane Cook used it, he got it from someone else and it didn't start with him.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:41 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I think most people are just complaining about the word used, not the fact that there's a stereotype. I don't care about the stereotyping (although including the haircut seems really stupid) - just, why do they have to be called karens? Why not "prima donnas" as you keep saying or something else like that.

Reading through this thread is odd, because one gets the impression people aren't actually reading their opponent's posts. There's like fifty different arguments happening at once.

The issue is that the stereotype uses a common name as a pejorative, not that the stereotype exists.

Yeah, yeah, other names exist as pejoratives. I know, y'all mentioned that a few times. *Engage broken record program* - None of them have the popularity of "karen;" the pejorative "dick" has been around for decades, so any Richard choosing to go by that is doing it with full knowledge; "john" is an absurd one to even include and weakens your overall argument, because nobody makes fun of people for being called john. "Chad" and "stacey" are equally rude as karen, I hate those terms, but they also aren't anywhere near as widely known as karen.

Repeat, repeat, repeat. I feel like a bot now.

The fact that "karen" is as popular a meme as it is right now means it will burn out fairly soon, regardless. But the name will still be tainted for awhile.
Because "Karen" makes it stick and makes it personal. It's even funnier when they try to shut the meme down and it only gets reinforced all the more.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:53 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
The good news is that you know if Dane Cook used it, he got it from someone else and it didn't start with him.
Actually, that's bad news as well, since he probably stole it from someone almost as lame as he is.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:51 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Because "Karen" makes it stick and makes it personal. It's even funnier when they try to shut the meme down and it only gets reinforced all the more.
Personal to whom, though?

EDIT: I don't deny that people bitching about it probably breathes life into it, at least for now. That's the same basic premise as the Streisand Effect (I think).
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Old 2nd August 2020, 12:55 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Personal to whom, though?

EDIT: I don't deny that people bitching about it probably breathes life into it, at least for now. That's the same basic premise as the Streisand Effect (I think).
I think I can agree with that, but being called by a name, a personal name, is the same as hey YOU! Stop that, it's not okay.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 01:48 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I never claimed it was a woman’s name. I put it out there with words like harpy and now Karen as shorthand for “shut up woman”.
I wasn't suggesting you were - I was just musing that if you could get "harridan" in vogue as a lazy insult to replace Karen, it's not going to be anyone's name.

Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
Reading through this thread is odd, because one gets the impression people aren't actually reading their opponent's posts.
Holy crap, we need a .gif emoji with eyes popping!

That sort of thing never happens here.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 08:17 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...nerd...
Hey!
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Old 2nd August 2020, 08:22 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It is quite funny how people on this thread have suddenly started writing Karen with a small "k" to try to separate it from a person's name, as if this backs their argument, when it isn't normally.
As I said before, if I saw the word spelled with a lower case k even occasionally in the media, I might buy the argument that it's being used as a descriptor and not as a name.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 08:56 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And there seem to be many more derogatory words for men than women
Really? How about bitch, cow, moo, whore, slut, harlot, cougar, moll, hag, tart, dragon, ho, crone & ratchet

Nuff for ya!?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:03 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really? How about bitch, cow, moo, whore, slut, harlot, cougar, moll, hag, tart, dragon, ho, crone & ratchet



Nuff for ya!?
No not really.

I have never heard of half of those and I could name a shed load more for dudes but would be banned

It is an interesting point actually. Female ones seem less offensive

Since when have people called women moos?, dragon or ratchet?

I don't even no what they mean
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:03 PM   #394
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Railing against the use of "Karen" to describe an entitled, arrogant, obnoxious woman is rather like complaining after the stable door has been left open and the horse has bolted... too late to bitch about it now!
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:10 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really? How about bitch, cow, moo, whore, slut, harlot, cougar, moll, hag, tart, dragon, ho, crone & ratchet

Nuff for ya!?
An interesting article on the subject.

Perhaps we should start an ISF survey to find as many gender specific slurs as we can think of and compare male to female counts?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:14 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Railing against the use of "Karen" to describe an entitled, arrogant, obnoxious woman is rather like complaining after the stable door has been left open and the horse has bolted... too late to bitch about it now!
"Railing against"

Slightly over blowing the sentiment.

But that is the way "Smartcookies" exaggerate.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:22 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
An interesting article on the subject.

Perhaps we should start an ISF survey to find as many gender specific slurs as we can think of and compare male to female counts?
You misspelled "counts"
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:25 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Railing against"

Slightly over blowing the sentiment.

But that is the way "Smartcookies" exaggerate.
Your problem is that I wasn't even talking to you (when I'm talking to you, I will quote your post or start with "@cullenz")

I was addressing the overall topic, which IIRC, begins with TheAtheist railing against the "Karen" meme.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:26 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You misspelled "counts"
Again. Calling people the name of genitalia is not restricted to female genitalia.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:27 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You misspelled "counts"
Ah, a Slim Whittle fan.

He boasted that he was responsible for taking the “o” out of country music.
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