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Old 25th June 2020, 11:12 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
(Despite the word originally referring to a caste of Indians who were more murderers than thugs, and like Thor, has had the "th" sound changed from the original hard "t")
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Actually the first letter of Thor in Old Norse was thorn - ̃orr - which is pronounced as a soft th. It never had a hard T.

You are, however, correct about "thug", as far as I know.
It was the same sound as English "Th" in Medieval times. It has become a "T" in most Nordic languages in modern times.

The Hindi word from which we get "thug" begins with the letter "ठ", which represents a sound close to our T but with two twists:
  • The extra puff of air you probably sometimes push out with a T without thinking about it, especially if it's before the word's most emphasized vowel (and not after an S), which can sound like an unwritten separate H after the T but doesn't make it count as a separate sound in English, is mandatory; if you fail to aspirate it you're making a different sound in Hindi. (Although we Englishers normally only aspirate unvoiced plosives {p,t,ʈ,k}, in Indic languages it's more common in the voiced ones {b,d,ɖ,g}, which is why romanized words in those languages are so full of "bh", "dh", and "gh". Because it's part of the same phoneme with the p/t/ʈ/k/b/d/ɖ/g, not really a separate sound, linguists represent it with a superscript when they're trying to stick to a 1:1 ratio of sounds to (full-sized) letters: pʰ/tʰ/ʈʰ/kʰ/bʰ/dʰ/ɖʰ/gʰ.
  • It's also retroflex, which means the tip of your tongue needs to be curled back. The closest we Englishers get is if we're about to say an R after the T, but the Hindi sound usually involves a bit more curling than even that. It's pretty much impossible to do without having it spill into adjacent vowels, from where it can even spread to other consonants, so they can sometimes end up going through a whole word without uncurling their tongues. Different romanization schemes either ignore this distinction or try to represent it with a dot below the letter, a tail on the letter as I used above, or doubling the letter.
If ठ weren't aspirated, it would be ट. If it weren't retroflex, it would be थ. If it were neither (just a plain un-fooled-around-with T), it would be त.

Indic languages have no sound like the English/Norse "th".

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It wasn't really coopted by rappers, but rather embraced, much like another word they also began to use (and there's another, albeit shakier, example for gay men specifically)... So he, and others, spun it, much like "******" into something positive when said amongst one another
It happens with a lot of words. "Nerd" has swung so far that it's not just positive among those who are stuck with it but even something people seem to look for even the flimsiest excuses to apply to themselves. And the earliest example I know is somewhere around three thousand years old. "Habiru" originally meant something like "outlaws", "raiders", "intruders", or "vagabonds". It was used by people in cities to describe bands of attackers from outside the cities; the earliest examples of Hebrews using it to refer to themselves are in contexts where they're addressing somebody else, using a word that they expect those others to consider applicable; essentially "this is what we know you think of us". But then it became just another name for themselves.
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Old 25th June 2020, 11:28 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It was the same sound as English "Th" in Medieval times. It has become a "T" in most Nordic languages in modern times.
So in fact backwards from what The Atheist suggested. Interesting!
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:05 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It was the same sound as English "Th" in Medieval times. It has become a "T" in most Nordic languages in modern times.
That's how I've always heard it from Scandinavians. I didn't know the history, though.
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:56 AM   #244
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In Faroese and Icelandic they still have the letter đ. We no longer have the letter, but we still have the sound đ in Danish, which is probably the reason why we tend to be better than Germans at pronouncing English th.
But our đ is usually spelled with a d. The Norse god is always pronounced with a t but spelled as both Thor and Tor. Thursday: torsdag, however, is never spelled with a th- in Danish.
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Old 26th June 2020, 05:57 AM   #245
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Thanks for the truly thorough tour of T's and TH's!
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Old 26th June 2020, 06:07 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Any particular reason why you can not, or will not, do that yourself?
If they can't be arsed to track down their own source for their own claim, why should it fall on me to put any more effort into it than they have?

Any particular reason why you can not, or will not, support your own claim yourself?
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Old 26th June 2020, 09:15 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If they can't be arsed to track down their own source for their own claim, why should it fall on me to put any more effort into it than they have?

Any particular reason why you can not, or will not, support your own claim yourself?
Stop being a Karen.
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:22 PM   #248
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#7 - "The Karen": https://listverse.com/2020/06/24/top...-modern-times/
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Old 27th June 2020, 01:00 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wonder if it's a conspiracy. Do hairdressers deliberately convince particularly obnoxious clients to get one? Or does the Karen personality make them crave it?
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Old 27th June 2020, 08:15 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I wonder if it's a conspiracy. Do hairdressers deliberately convince particularly obnoxious clients to get one? Or does the Karen personality make them crave it?
It's a hair style that happens to suit several face shapes, and is relatively low maintenance for the wearer, so it's not surprising it should be common, particularly among ladies of a particular age group. It was actually considered a good style until it became too common and then it became associated with the Karen meme.

The hair style itself is not to blame for the actions of a few individuals that happen to wear it, but unfortunately cultures have a habit of associating hair styles with behaviors. For examples consider shaved heads on young white men, side ponytails on teenaged girls, long hair on teenaged boys, and dreadlocks on anybody who isn't from the Caribbean. It's tragic in cases where a given style would really suit the appearance of a person but they can't have it because it'll raise undesirable associations in the assumptions of others.

In a perfect world everybody could have whatever hair style suits them best, without cultural baggage.
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Old 27th June 2020, 12:41 PM   #251
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Two bits to throw in the mix this morning:

Quote:
"It's usually used as a pejorative for middle-aged white women," said Matt Schimkowitz, a senior editor at Know Your Meme, the online meme encyclopedia. "It's almost like they have an entitlement, where they're kind of lording their privilege over another."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/...me/ar-BB14FWPX

I certainly haven't ever seen "Karen" used when anything other than a white woman is involved.

Obnoxious white chick? Must be a Karen.
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Old 4th July 2020, 03:32 AM   #252
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The View (July 1, 2020): Americans' Obsession With "Karens"
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th July 2020, 06:27 AM   #253
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Old 4th July 2020, 11:18 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I wonder if in the incredible year of 2060 their "Karen" will be either a Charlotte or an Ava.
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Old 4th July 2020, 04:15 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It happens with a lot of words. "Nerd" has swung so far that it's not just positive among those who are stuck with it but even something people seem to look for even the flimsiest excuses to apply to themselves. And the earliest example I know is somewhere around three thousand years old. "Habiru" originally meant something like "outlaws", "raiders", "intruders", or "vagabonds". It was used by people in cities to describe bands of attackers from outside the cities; the earliest examples of Hebrews using it to refer to themselves are in contexts where they're addressing somebody else, using a word that they expect those others to consider applicable; essentially "this is what we know you think of us". But then it became just another name for themselves.

That's fascinating, this account of how 'Hebrew' derives from 'Habiru'. Thanks for posting!

This is the first I heard the term Habiru, but, curious, I googled around a bit, and here's what came up. (This is entirely off-topic, I realize, more suited for that other thread than this one, but this is too interesting to not make at least one post about.)

For one thing, the connection between Habiru and Hebrew is, apparently, far from commonly accepted. The mainstream view is not in favor of this theory, this connection, at all,apparently. (For obvious reasons, as we'll see.)

That apart, how Habiru became Hebrew, is apparently -- what I found by, like I said, random Googling, not deep study, so sure, I could be wrong (that is, it could be the sites Google pointed me to, are, in fact, crank sites, although I didn't myself get a crank-vibe there) -- is very different than your account.

Apparently Habiru or Apiru were this geographically diverse CLASS of outlaws, fringe elements, laborers, mercenaries, runaway slaves, as you say; but where this narrative differs from yours is that apparently this CLASS is what the Hebrews actually arose out of. (They did not simply end up appropriating the term, as you suggest, apparently this is who they actually WERE.) If this is true, then the implications are far reaching. This means there is no Hebrew nation at all. Not only are Moses's hallucinations and his sea parting, etc, a collection of tall tales, but, in fact, the whole Hebrew nation itself, all of Israel of the Old Testament, is made up drivel. All of that, per this Apiru narrative, was just a collection of runaway slaves that, diffused across geographies, came to acquire a (diffuse, shaky, informal, yet real) clout of sorts, and eventually came to make up these stories about themselves, and eventually came to end up thinking of themselves as the Hebrew "nation".

Like I said, entirely off-topic -- apologies for derailing the thread somewhat -- but, if true, really interesting, and realy really far reaching in its implications.
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Old 5th July 2020, 01:51 PM   #256
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At Costco, the dumb bitch refusing to wear a mask is, of course, immediately a Karen.

And WaPo doubles down on the whole thing.

The other annoying thing about the Karen meme is that it's showing a complete paucity of originality and style. Any time a white woman does something stupid or reprehensible, she's a Karen, which saves the writer trying to think of something to type.

I blame Twatter.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:31 AM   #257
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I have been previously more comfortable with the dreaded "K-slur", but I am beginning to worry that the definition is blurring and it is generalizing into a generic gendered insult that has little meaning beyond the "shrill woman" trope.

For example, an incident where a woman pulled a gun on an unarmed person over a minor parking lot squabble has been labeled a "Karen". I fail to see how brandishing a gun in a confrontation is "Karen" behavior. In fact, pulling a gun seems very dissimilar to the "I want to see a manager" trope and seems like a more direct, self-help (in a bad way) attitude.

I fear the Karen insult is just becoming a generic anti-woman term devoid of any useful definition. While I thought it was useful to shorthand "white woman demanding to see a a manager/cop over a petty complaint" has transformed into "shrill bitch", which is regrettable.

https://www.complex.com/life/2020/07...n-and-daughter
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Old 7th July 2020, 03:37 PM   #258
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Pure journalistic laziness, just as any story involving one or more government party/department/member is labelled “xxxxx-gate”
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:30 AM   #259
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Now lawmakers are getting in on the act:

San Franscisco proposing law to criminalize racism motivated frivolous calls to the police, the CAREN act. Caution Against Racially Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/...ted-911-calls/
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Old 8th July 2020, 11:34 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Now lawmakers are getting in on the act:

San Franscisco proposing law to criminalize racism motivated frivolous calls to the police, the CAREN act. Caution Against Racially Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/...ted-911-calls/
I was just coming to post that, damn you!

The irony just drips off it.
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Old 28th July 2020, 06:17 PM   #261
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Popular promotion by Domino's Pizza in NZ: Calling All Karens!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122...eing-tone-deaf
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Old 28th July 2020, 07:21 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Popular promotion by Domino's Pizza in NZ: Calling All Karens!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/122...eing-tone-deaf

" Complaints on Domino’s Facebook post focused on the privilege usually afforded to “Karens”.

“Dominos New Zealand, I would like to speak to your manager, please! I cannot believe the ignorance displayed in this post and the narrative you are trying to spin on this. There is so much context missing from this and you. Domino’s NZ have failed to recognised the harm this post has caused. I suggest you take this down immediately and publicly apologise,” one post said. "


Jesus H Christ!!! Some people really do need to just grow a ******* sense of humour!
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Old 28th July 2020, 09:25 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
" Complaints on Domino’s Facebook post focused on the privilege usually afforded to “Karens”.

“Dominos New Zealand, I would like to speak to your manager, please! I cannot believe the ignorance displayed in this post and the narrative you are trying to spin on this. There is so much context missing from this and you. Domino’s NZ have failed to recognised the harm this post has caused. I suggest you take this down immediately and publicly apologise,” one post said. "


Jesus H Christ!!! Some people really do need to just grow a ******* sense of humour!
Can you guarantee that wasn't someone taking the piss?

I think it's a poor choice for them to try, but I do rate the mum they use in the ads!
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:57 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have been previously more comfortable with the dreaded "K-slur", but I am beginning to worry that the definition is blurring and it is generalizing into a generic gendered insult that has little meaning beyond the "shrill woman" trope.

For example, an incident where a woman pulled a gun on an unarmed person over a minor parking lot squabble has been labeled a "Karen". I fail to see how brandishing a gun in a confrontation is "Karen" behavior. In fact, pulling a gun seems very dissimilar to the "I want to see a manager" trope and seems like a more direct, self-help (in a bad way) attitude.

I fear the Karen insult is just becoming a generic anti-woman term devoid of any useful definition. While I thought it was useful to shorthand "white woman demanding to see a a manager/cop over a petty complaint" has transformed into "shrill bitch", which is regrettable.

https://www.complex.com/life/2020/07...n-and-daughter

'I am entitled and can do whatever I want when I'm convinced that I'm in my right in a situation where neither the manager nor the police are there to take care of it.'

The Karens seem to have joined the anti-masker movement, and many of them are men - sometimes they are called Chads:
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:31 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
'I am entitled and can do whatever I want when I'm convinced that I'm in my right in a situation where neither the manager nor the police are there to take care of it.'

The Karens seem to have joined the anti-masker movement, and many of them are men - sometimes they are called Chads:
That definition of Karen would certainly be a broader definition than seemed to be originally used, which seemed to be pretty narrowly defined as "I want to see your manager" when they don't get their way with some clerk, or calling the police for minor or imagined breaches of public order.

The example of the lady pulling a gun during a Chipotle parking lot squabble doesn't strike me as "Karen" behavior. Bad behavior for sure, but different.

Anti-mask people adds an interesting new axis. Some of it seems like Karen-esque entitlement, especially the dubious threats of ADA enforcement or demands to speak to corporate management. Getting into physical struggles in stores when confronted doesn't strike me as Karen behavior, but some other kind of anti-social stereotype.

Calling the male version of this Chad seems even more inappropriate. The Chad meme is very well established and has nothing to do with this. The 4chan sourced "Chad" is the idealized version of the carefree alpha male, in contrast to the anti-social incel. Misappropriating this to mean whining, occasionally violent men seems like a direct contradiction of defined stereotypes. A Chad would never get into a screaming match with a shopkeeper.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:45 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have been previously more comfortable with the dreaded "K-slur", but I am beginning to worry that the definition is blurring and it is generalizing into a generic gendered insult that has little meaning beyond the "shrill woman" trope.

For example, an incident where a woman pulled a gun on an unarmed person over a minor parking lot squabble has been labeled a "Karen". I fail to see how brandishing a gun in a confrontation is "Karen" behavior. In fact, pulling a gun seems very dissimilar to the "I want to see a manager" trope and seems like a more direct, self-help (in a bad way) attitude.

I fear the Karen insult is just becoming a generic anti-woman term devoid of any useful definition. While I thought it was useful to shorthand "white woman demanding to see a a manager/cop over a petty complaint" has transformed into "shrill bitch", which is regrettable.

https://www.complex.com/life/2020/07...n-and-daughter
I had a similar concern at one point, but as useage spreads I'm also seeing the term applied to men and people of color as well. I think there's an element of misogynist stereotype in some of the use, but it's also becoming a more formless insult. I also think it's likelt that its current over use is going to guarantee that people get sick of it within a short while and it lands on the dustpile of cringy popular phrases no one uses anymore within less than a year.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:45 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That definition of Karen would certainly be a broader definition than seemed to be originally used, which seemed to be pretty narrowly defined as "I want to see your manager" when they don't get their way with some clerk, or calling the police for minor or imagined breaches of public order.

The example of the lady pulling a gun during a Chipotle parking lot squabble doesn't strike me as "Karen" behavior. Bad behavior for sure, but different.

Anti-mask people adds an interesting new axis. Some of it seems like Karen-esque entitlement, especially the dubious threats of ADA enforcement or demands to speak to corporate management. Getting into physical struggles in stores when confronted doesn't strike me as Karen behavior, but some other kind of anti-social stereotype.

Calling the male version of this Chad seems even more inappropriate. The Chad meme is very well established and has nothing to do with this. The 4chan sourced "Chad" is the idealized version of the carefree alpha male, in contrast to the anti-social incel. Misappropriating this to mean whining, occasionally violent men seems like a direct contradiction of defined stereotypes. A Chad would never get into a screaming match with a shopkeeper.
You're over specializing it, the prima donic behavior seems the underlying commonality to it, and Karen is the name it got, so "Karen" isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old 29th July 2020, 04:47 AM   #268
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Nor should it.
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Old 29th July 2020, 07:19 AM   #269
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I am another one who always heard of "Chad" as a slur used by incels and that whole men's rights movement.

I've seen a few discussions among veterans that seemed to use "Kevin" pretty much as a male Karen.

But then again, its a kind of slang, and slang changes quickly and often, so I'm not going to dwell on it.
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Old 29th July 2020, 07:26 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You're over specializing it, the prima donic behavior seems the underlying commonality to it, and Karen is the name it got, so "Karen" isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
That's a fair point, perhaps I was being too narrow. Prima donna attitude does seem like a good common denominator that could link these various behaviors.


I still don't think that the lady pulling a gun during a parking lot squabble, or some anti-mask nut getting into a violent scuffle with a clerk, qualifies. That involves directly getting your hands dirty, which a true prima donna would recoil from.
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Old 29th July 2020, 07:37 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You're over specializing it, the prima donic behavior seems the underlying commonality to it, and Karen is the name it got, so "Karen" isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
Interesting that we have another phrase to match this usage that is again taken from a female, prima donna.
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Old 29th July 2020, 07:42 AM   #272
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Using an actual name for the stereotype has more of an emotional punch than using a term. "Karen" personifies the behavior more than "Prima Donna" does, and that's the point.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:20 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Using an actual name for the stereotype has more of an emotional punch than using a term. "Karen" personifies the behavior more than "Prima Donna" does, and that's the point.
Yes it is, but also growing up, theres been one of them seemingly everywhere: Little League, the Scouts, anme it, theres always that one parent involved who is the text book Prima Donna, now it just has a name. And having the official haircut doesnt hurt either.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:37 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Yes it is, but also growing up, theres been one of them seemingly everywhere: Little League, the Scouts, anme it, theres always that one parent involved who is the text book Prima Donna, now it just has a name. And having the official haircut doesnt hurt either.
The haircut reminds me of the profile of a chicken. Especially when they have the color job so the under fluff is a different shade than the top coat.





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Old 29th July 2020, 02:30 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
'I am entitled and can do whatever I want when I'm convinced that I'm in my right in a situation where neither the manager nor the police are there to take care of it.'
There are already quite a few female-specific pejoratives, is it necessary to add another that happens to be a name?

I'm pretty sure some women called Karen are perfectly good people who don't carry on like that.

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am another one who always heard of "Chad" as a slur used by incels and that whole men's rights movement.
Plus, they did cost Al Gore an election, so that one's probably fair.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Using an actual name for the stereotype has more of an emotional punch than using a term. "Karen" personifies the behavior more than "Prima Donna" does, and that's the point.
Karen has more emotional impact than slut, whore, bitch, slapper and all the ones I can't type here?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The haircut reminds me of the profile of a chicken.
...says the turkey...
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:51 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'm pretty sure some women called Karen are perfectly good people who don't carry on like that.
I am sure that there are a lot of good Richards too...

Heck at one place I worked I was literally sitting between a pair of Dicks.
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Old 30th July 2020, 02:58 PM   #277
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When reading Not Always Right, I come across many examples of Karens, mostly posted by their preferred victims, lowly retail peons. Here is one story which shows all the hallmark behavior, berating a retail peon for an error that if true, is Karen's own, refusing any and all conciliation until a superior of the lowly retail peon is preset, then being the model customer so put upon by the incredibly rude and unhelpful peon that she was *forced* to seek out salvation from management.

Nothing at all about age or ethnicity, even that the Karen was female is incidental. It's purely behavior, all about taking advantage of the lowly retail peon's job being dependent on satisfying customers to sate a more sadistic streak. If retail peons were not so easily fired, if black dogwalkers were not so easily threatened with death by police, "Karens" would not exist. It's all a power play of setting oneself above another through even the pettiest of means.
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Old 30th July 2020, 03:54 PM   #278
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Yep, 'cause Not Always Right is always a 100% accurate record of events that actually happened, with no fictionalised fantasising of any kind.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:11 PM   #279
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Mhmmm, your strawman really got me. You're right, nothing bad ever happens anywhere, ever, the universe is rainbows and kittens.
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Old 30th July 2020, 04:17 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Mhmmm, your strawman really got me. You're right, nothing bad ever happens anywhere, ever, the universe is rainbows and kittens.
That's not what I said.
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