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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:56 AM   #161
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You keep presenting this as if these professionals just spontaneously decided that they needed to change their terminology to be super explicit. You keep stating this as if there were no underlying pressure to be so explicit as a result of trans activists appropriating the commonly used term "women".
If you can find a statement from any of the authors that they were changing the terminology that they used due to pressure, I'd be interested to see it.

As it is, earlier I linked to a blog post from before all this kicked off, written by a menstrual health professional where she outlined 10 reasons why "people who menstruate" is a preferred term. Only reasons 8 and 10 referenced trans people at all.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 04:58 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think he's okay with lumping adult female people under the term "women", provided that adult male people can also be included in that term in all instances of its use.
Like d4m10n, you are entitled to make up whatever you wish.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:00 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You seem to believe that you've been extremely clear, and that everyone else is just trolling you or something.

I'm sorry if you keep taking this as some kind of attack, but you genuinely have NOT been clear at all. You seem to be just tap-dancing around without actually saying anything. And when asked for clarification, or to provide additional explanation, you point the finger back at the other person and put on a show of being offended while simultaneously condescending.

Nobody is asking you to jump through hoops. But it would be awfully nice if you actually said things clearly, and if you were willing to engage in actual conversation rather than accusatory insinuations.
This is coming immediately after you've attributed an opinion to me which I do not hold. You've still not retracted your accusation that I don't care about cis women being raped, either.

As I said before, your attempts to paint yourself as some kind of victim who's only interested in having an honest, rational discussion are hollow in the extreme.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:41 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It wouldn't solve the problem for women, though, as women aren't just at a height and weight disadvantage against men in terms of violence: men also have a large upper body strength advantage.
Alls I'm saying this idea that straight cis men (and let's be honest if we start pulling at the strings hard enough straight cis white men) are the only group that are supposed to just be happy with it just being assumed that they are going to turn sexually violent the moment society lets its guard down is, to the point that people react with honest confusion and even hostility when anyone doesn't just go along with it something I'm not anywhere near as onboard with as I'm being told I have to be.

"I don't want that gay man in my locker room because he might rape me" is homophobic.

"I don't want that black man in my neighborhood because he might robe me" is racist.

"I don't want that transgender person in my kids school because they might use it to sneak into the wrong bathroom and peeping Tom on my kid" is homophobic.

"I don't want that man near me because he might rape me" isn't just not sexists, it's seen as obvious, indeed self evident.

I'll grant there's legit concerns in there (and no that's not an invitation for hair splitting and drawing lines in the sand) but nowhere near enough for that kind of night and day disparage.

Yeah sure I know you have facts and figures that prove it's necessary. And like I said every racist has the "Blacks are 13.4% of the population but commit 51.1% of the murders" thing memorized too.

And no "But you just don't know what it's like being a scawwed widdle woman" isn't a valid counter to any of this.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:52 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I don't want that black man in my neighborhood because he might robe me" is racist.
We talked about this Joe, if you go outside you have to robe yourself, public nudity is just frowned upon - no need to be scared of the black guy trying to robe you, he's just trying to help.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:59 AM   #166
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*Sighs* Yes I made a spelling error. I get it. Very funny.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 06:06 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There was nothing in there that could be considered factually incorrect, and there was no fearmongering about transpeople.
I find it telling that the people who slam Rowling for her stances on sex and gender issues have thus far avoided quoting and refuting what she actually wrote, instead claiming that the work was all done elsewhere and needn't now be reviewed with a skeptical eye.

As it turns out, you don't have to dig hardly at all into that Twitter thread before finding claims that aren't remotely backed up by evidence. For example:

https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/s...87945251905536

Quote:
Forstater also did not "ask the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected by law".
Here is what the judgment actually says Forstater asked the judge to determine:
Quote:
Whether the belief relied upon by the Claimant at paragraph 67 of her
Re-amended Particulars of Claim amounts to a philosophical belief
pursuant to section 10 EqA.
Para 67 “The Claimant believes that “sex” is a material reality which should not be conflated with “gender” or “gender identity”. Being female is an immutable biological fact, not a feeling or an identity. Moreover, sex matters. It is important to be able to talk about and take action against the discrimination, violence and oppression that still affect women and girls because they were born female”
I leave it to you all to judge whether Rowling or Carter have more accurately conveyed Forstater's ask here.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 06:35 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Alls I'm saying this idea that straight cis men (and let's be honest if we start pulling at the strings hard enough straight cis white men) are the only group that are supposed to just be happy with it just being assumed that they are going to turn sexually violent the moment society lets its guard down is, to the point that people react with honest confusion and even hostility when anyone doesn't just go along with it something I'm not anywhere near as onboard with as I'm being told I have to be.
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but just as a for instance, my girlfriend was sexually assaulted several times before finishing high school, the earliest at the age of 5, and the worst of which was attempted rape. It didn't end after she finished high school though, and she's still afraid to go outside at night or take the subway alone, because of the regularity with which she's been harassed and assaulted. I've seen this sort of thing happen with female friends and heard plenty of stories. The data also reflects that the people I know aren't outliers.

Having sex segregated spaces doesn't seem to be a huge cost if it's helping to prevent some of this sort of thing.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 06:39 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* Yes I made a spelling error. I get it. Very funny.
It was a joke, lighten up. I thought it was quite funny, though admittedly that may have been the weed.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:02 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but just as a for instance, my girlfriend was sexually assaulted several times before finishing high school, the earliest at the age of 5, and the worst of which was attempted rape. It didn't end after she finished high school though, and she's still afraid to go outside at night or take the subway alone, because of the regularity with which she's been harassed and assaulted. I've seen this sort of thing happen with female friends and heard plenty of stories. The data also reflects that the people I know aren't outliers.

Having sex segregated spaces doesn't seem to be a huge cost if it's helping to prevent some of this sort of thing.
I've been mugged 3 times. Everytime it was a black man. Do I get to be racist now? What about the 4th time? The 5th?

What's the cutoff? When does one demographic do enough bad things to me that I get to dislike the whole demographic? When does one demographic do enough things to another demographic that it becomes the norm to just assume they'll do it.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:12 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I don't want that man near me because he might rape me" isn't just not sexists, it's seen as obvious, indeed self evident.
Indeed it is.



We could argue about the meaning of "sexist" if you like. Men and women are different. If that be sexism, then let's make the most of it.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:13 AM   #172
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Call me weird but I think several very simple principles apply:

1. If only for the sake of politeness, people should be referred to in the manner they themselves wish. If a Susan wishes to be called Sue, or Sam, or even Henry one should do so. If someone you believe looks very masculine wishes to be called Sue and viewed as a woman, or use the pronoun “them” fine, do so. It’s no skin off your teeth, it’s really none of your business, and most importantly it’s the polite thing to do. And surprise, Sue may be a cis-woman after all (see point 2).

2. Biological set is not binary, as explained multiple times upthread. Size and shape of genitalia, levels of sex hormones, etc, vary widely even within cis males and females.

3. When I think of my sex/gender it involves what I think. I don’t glance down to determine it, even though by convention my body more or less matches my thoughts on this. I can fully understand how some people think of themselves as a sex/gender different from what someone else might assign to them on a physical glance. Or even the number of Y and X chromosomes they have. Do we all know our own karyotype? What they think of themselves is more important than what other people think of them.

4. I don’t see how someone coming out as a trans-women diminishes in any way the “value” or “worth” of cis-women, or their struggles for equality. This reminds me too much of the old idea that gay marriages would somehow invalidate straight marriages.

There are knotter issues, involving sports competitions, etc. But I thought I would start off with the conclusions that I believe are straight-forward.

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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:23 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Men and women are different.
Except when they aren't and suggesting they are is sexist.

Except when they are and suggesting they aren't is sexist.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:34 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I find it telling that the people who slam Rowling for her stances on sex and gender issues have thus far avoided quoting and refuting what she actually wrote, instead claiming that the work was all done elsewhere and needn't now be reviewed with a skeptical eye.

As it turns out, you don't have to dig hardly at all into that Twitter thread before finding claims that aren't remotely backed up by evidence. For example:

https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/s...87945251905536



Here is what the judgment actually says Forstater asked the judge to determine:


I leave it to you all to judge whether Rowling or Carter have more accurately conveyed Forstater's ask here.
Firstly, congratulations for being the first person to actually bother to address anything in that thread, rather than just ignoring its existence.

Secondly, you've actually linked to the relevant part of the judgement, but seemingly haven't noticed the differences between that and what Rowling said.

Rowling:

Quote:
[...]asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law.
The judgement:

Quote:
Whether the belief [...] amounts to a philosophical belief[...]
Rowling is characterising it as a philosophical belief. The judge was ruling on whether or not it actually was a philosophical belief.

Rowling:

Quote:
[...]belief that sex is determined by biology[...]
Judgement:

Quote:
believes that “sex” is a material reality which
should not be conflated with “gender” or “gender identity”. Being
female is an immutable biological fact, not a feeling or an identity.
Do you notice how everything after the word "reality" is both missing from Rowling's characterisation and important?

And, yes, the core of the case was about whether or not misgendering was protected speech. That's why it was being determined whether or not it was classified as a philosophical belief under law. If it had been ruled a philosophical belief, it would have been protected.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 07:42 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For millenia, people have said that women ought to act one way and men ought to act a different way. As part of the women's rights movement, people rejected the requirement that women need to act a certain way. Now, people are trying to say that anyone behaves a certain way is a woman.
Seems like even the ultra-left gender activists can't deny that there are differences between the two.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:03 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seems like even the ultra-left gender activists can't deny that there are differences between the two.
Men and women are the same except when they aren't except when they are except when they aren't except when they are except whenever women say so.

I'm almost at the point I'm declaring the whole "sex/gender" difference a coded way to get "Women are equal to men whenever that gives women an advantage, women and men aren't equal whenever that gives men an advantage" across without being too obvious about it.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:05 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Call me weird but I think several very simple principles apply:

1. If only for the sake of politeness, people should be referred to in the manner they themselves wish. If a Susan wishes to be called Sue, or Sam, or even Henry one should do so. If someone you believe looks very masculine wishes to be called Sue and viewed as a woman, or use the pronoun “them” fine, do so. It’s no skin off your teeth, it’s really none of your business, and most importantly it’s the polite thing to do. And surprise, Sue may be a cis-woman after all (see point 2).

2. Biological set is not binary, as explained multiple times upthread. Size and shape of genitalia, levels of sex hormones, etc, vary widely even within cis males and females.

3. When I think of my sex/gender it involves what I think. I don’t glance down to determine it, even though by convention my body more or less matches my thoughts on this. I can fully understand how some people think of themselves as a sex/gender different from what someone else might assign to them on a physical glance. Or even the number of Y and X chromosomes they have. Do we all know our own karyotype? What they think of themselves is more important than what other people think of them.

4. I don’t see how someone coming out as a trans-women diminishes in any way the “value” or “worth” of cis-women, or their struggles for equality. This reminds me too much of the old idea that gay marriages would somehow invalidate straight marriages.

There are knotter issues, involving sports competitions, etc. But I thought I would start off with the conclusions that I believe are straight-forward.

The trouble is this is one of those issues where quite a few people (on social media or in meatspace) will take your not agreeing with them 100% as you disagreeing with them 100%. It doesn't matter how many 'I agree with you on this point' boxes you tic, once you get to one you're not settled on or disagree with, out come the 'transphobe!' accusations. "What do you mean sports is a knottier issue? Trans women are women, period, so issue settled, you bigot!"

Not everyone arguing pro-trans positions is like that, of course, but enough are or close to it that fruitful dialogue becomes difficult if not impossible.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:17 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Biological set is not binary, as explained multiple times upthread.
You misspelled debunked as "explained" - biological sex is binary, homo sapiens produces two types of gametes and not a spectrum of them, and is a sexually dimorphic species and not a sexually infinity-morphic species. The power of ideology to make people deny simple observable facts is astounding.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:34 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
The trouble is this is one of those issues where quite a few people (on social media or in meatspace) will take your not agreeing with them 100% as you disagreeing with them 100%. It doesn't matter how many 'I agree with you on this point' boxes you tic, once you get to one you're not settled on or disagree with, out come the 'transphobe!' accusations. "What do you mean sports is a knottier issue? Trans women are women, period, so issue settled, you bigot!"

Not everyone arguing pro-trans positions is like that, of course, but enough are or close to it that fruitful dialogue becomes difficult if not impossible.
That's only a "trouble" if you care so much about what other people say about you. I believe certain principles, and some rando troll online screaming at me isn't going to change that.

You can have principles or you can be universally popular, but not both.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 08:34 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And, yes, the core of the case was about whether or not misgendering was protected speech. That's why it was being determined whether or not it was classified as a philosophical belief under law. If it had been ruled a philosophical belief, it would have been protected.
Rowling wrote that Forstater was "asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law." It doesn't really sound like you are disagreeing with her characterization here.

Nor should you, since the summary of the judgment was "The specific belief that the Claimant holds as determined in the reasons, is not a philosophical belief protected by the Equality Act 2010."

If you think Rowling was factually wrong here, which specific claim of hers are you looking at?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:16 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's only a "trouble" if you care so much about what other people say about you
You know that's a bad argument in any case.

It's a really bad argument in this discussion.

You can't play the "Well just don't worry what people think about you" in a discussion that is literally about having to accept people's personal gender headcanon as the truth. I'm allowed to worry about people thinking I'm a bigot exactly as much as a person with a penis and an XY chromosome is allowed to worry that people aren't thinking of him as a woman.

"Don't worry about what people think about you, just shut up and think about me the way I want you to" is turning into the Left's backward version of "You're a bigoted because you're bigoted against bigotry."
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:33 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
2. Biological set is not binary, as explained multiple times upthread. Size and shape of genitalia, levels of sex hormones, etc, vary widely even within cis males and females.
"Because you have a smaller penis, you're closer to the 'woman' end of the spectrum than someone with a larger penis. You're 100% XY and 0% XX, but it's still a continuum because reasons."

"Also, canine-feline is a spectrum. A maine coon is actually more of a dog than a chihuahua."

"And don't forget that the Tu-95 is more of a jet airplane than the ERJ 140."

Turns out that size does matter after all. Take that, Yoda!

(And take that, less-endowed men everywhere. Having a small penis really does make you less of a man.)

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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:40 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know that's a bad argument in any case.

It's a really bad argument in this discussion.

You can't play the "Well just don't worry what people think about you" in a discussion that is literally about having to accept people's personal gender headcanon as the truth. I'm allowed to worry about people thinking I'm a bigot exactly as much as a person with a penis and an XY chromosome is allowed to worry that people aren't thinking of him as a woman.
You're also allowed to worry that Tiffani-Amber told Asheigh and Stacie-Khate that you looked fat in your coral pink top that you wore to the sock-hop, but that doesn't mean such worry wouldn't be a ridiculous waste of time.

What people think in their heads doesn't matter so long as they behave decently. Aren't you the guy who says he judges people on their actions, not their stated principles? So what if Person A thinks you're a bigot? So what if Person B thinks you don't respect zeir gender-presentation in the proper social context? As long as you're behaving decently you can think what you like in your own head, and they can in theirs. Person C thinks she's a glamourous cougar, Person D thinks he's a dude, Person E thinks they're She-Ra. It shouldn't affect you in the least until C hits on you, D borrows your jockstrap, and E comes at you swinging a sword and screaming for blood.

Quote:
"Don't worry about what people think about you, just shut up and think about me the way I want you to" is turning into the Left's backward version of "You're a bigoted because you're bigoted against bigotry."
I don't think I'm "The Left" and qualified to speak for it. You're certainly not, either, so it seems an odd entertainment choice to imagine arguments with it.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:12 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Rowling wrote that Forstater was "asking the judge to rule on whether a philosophical belief that sex is determined by biology is protected in law." It doesn't really sound like you are disagreeing with her characterization here.

Nor should you, since the summary of the judgment was "The specific belief that the Claimant holds as determined in the reasons, is not a philosophical belief protected by the Equality Act 2010."

If you think Rowling was factually wrong here, which specific claim of hers are you looking at?
I direct you to the parts of my post that you snipped out, in order to ignore them.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:22 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What people think in their heads doesn't matter so long as they behave decently.
And that's my entire point. If how I "behave" was all that matters we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"I literally believe you are this gender" is not behavior. You can go in whatever bathroom you want, you can play in any sports league you want, I'll call you whatever pronoun you want.

I will not literally believe I think you are a sexual category you are not nor will I pretend that's what I'm doing.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:26 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's my entire point. If how I "behave" was all that matters we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"I literally believe you are this gender" is not behavior. You can go in whatever bathroom you want, you can play in any sports league you want, I'll call you whatever pronoun you want.

I will not literally believe I think you are a sexual category you are not nor will I pretend that's what I'm doing.
Are you afraid of transgender agendaed telepaths monitoring your thoughts for acceptability? If not then why are you concerned about your thoughts, confined entirely to your head and not your behavior, upsetting anybody?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:28 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you afraid of transgender agendaed telepaths monitoring your thoughts for acceptability? If not then why are you concerned about your thoughts, confined entirely to your head and not your behavior, upsetting anybody?
The exact same reason they are worried that someone out there thinks they are this gender instead of that gender.

Your argument works just as good against transgender people. "Just don't ask people what gender they think you are and problem solved!"
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:33 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I direct you to the parts of my post that you snipped out, in order to ignore them.
Your writing is not proving as clear to me as it is to you, but I'll try again.

Can you please just quote the part where Rowling said "A" but actually "not A" is the truth, or vice-versa? (Seems to me you're just giving her guff for accurately but briefly paraphrasing Forstater's actual beliefs, as opposed to misstating them.)

Remember, you're the one claiming Rowling has made several demonstrably false claims here. It should be super easy to say Rowling said X but actually not X because reasons. Andrew Carter did so over and over again.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Rowling is characterising it as a philosophical belief.
Do you disagree with such a characterization? Not all philosophical beliefs are legally protected when acted upon, last I checked.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 10:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The exact same reason they are worried that someone out there thinks they are this gender instead of that gender.

Your argument works just as good against transgender people. "Just don't ask people what gender they think you are and problem solved!"
I think all people can expect is that if they ask to be treated as a particular gender, and it doesn't harm you to do so, you should do so. What you think in the privacy of your head is not anybody's business but yours.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:06 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You misspelled debunked as "explained" - biological sex is binary, homo sapiens produces two types of gametes and not a spectrum of them, and is a sexually dimorphic species and not a sexually infinity-morphic species. The power of ideology to make people deny simple observable facts is astounding.
I am willing to believe that “not willing to accept it” is different from “debunked.”

Humans do produce two types of gametes. Big deal; that does not make sexual development binary. It’s not that simple. Cis-males typically get both kinds, an X and an Y, so they already are a mix. Cis-females get two X’s but they go through a lot of trouble to avoid gene dosage effects by turning off one of the two pairs of genes on the duplicated X’s so they don’t express double the X gene products. There may be two kinds of sperm but the actions they produce on sexual development are far from two binary effects.

And I know there have been discussions of Y only, XXY, androgen insensitivity, etc. people upthread that have been dismissed as too rare to worry about. Why rarity matters in this conversation I don’t know.

But more so how can one look at the range of phenotypes produced even by XY and XX humans and say sex is binary? I probably look a lot more like many women than I look like the young Arnold Schwarzenegger and I know I have an XY karyotype. Conversely I know a lot of very masculine looking XX women. Sex hormone levels are not exclusively binary. There are XX women who naturally make more testosterone than many XY men and vis versa for estrogen. There are pictures in biology books that demonstrate a continuum of genital structures ranging from “fully” male to fully “female” and at no one stage one can say, “okay this is no longer male genitalia and now is female.” Same about breasts. Or faces. Or...

But to move away from biology to psychology: why should it matter so intensely to you or to any one? It is relevant if you intend to have children with someone else. It might be relevant, depending on your open mindedness, if you intended to have sex with someone. But if you think about it the sex you believe yourself to be is rooted in your brain, not your genitals. That is what is crucial to us and how we identify, and biologically the brain and genitalia don’t always match perfectly.

If someone feels they are female what the hell business is it for me to question them in most circumstances? I mentioned there are some issues that can come up which I will discuss, but fundamentally they know better than I who they are. They deserve to be addressed and treated in the fashion they request. Am I to question that on the basis of the angular nature of their face? To demand they strip so I can measure the length of a sexual organ? Ask for a blood draw to run a karyotype? It is none of my business in most situations!

Finally we in our society often seem obsessed with sex/gender. It’s one of the first traits we ask when a baby is born. We look at a stranger and mentally assign them as male or female. But if you think about it, how does it matter so much? What if it isn’t that important to the person themselves? Is that going to be the end of civilization?

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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:19 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No gendered sports period. Problem solved.

Why is that not the solution?
It's the solution if you only want to see men in pro sports.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:21 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's the solution if you only want to see men in pro sports.
Listen someone's walking away unhappy here.

And since every argument is some variation on "You're a bigot/intolerant because you don't understand what it's like to be X" all I can do is spin the wheel and hope to get yelled at the least.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:25 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Assuming men are sexually assaulted by men at roughly the same rates women are...?
Well, they're certainly more likely to be victims of violence.

But that doesn't matter because they're men.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:33 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Call me weird but I think several very simple principles apply:

1. If only for the sake of politeness, people should be referred to in the manner they themselves wish.
Call me "master" from now on, then.

Quote:
2. Biological set is not binary, as explained multiple times upthread. Size and shape of genitalia, levels of sex hormones, etc, vary widely even within cis males and females.
The former does not follow from the latter. So far in this thread I haven't seen a serious attempt to put forth actual examples of people who can't be readily identified as male or female.

And from your later post:

Quote:
But more so how can one look at the range of phenotypes produced even by XY and XX humans and say sex is binary? I probably look a lot more like many women than I look like the young Arnold Schwarzenegger and I know I have an XY karyotype.
So? What does that have to do with sex as a spectrum? Is there any question about your biological sex?

Quote:
3. When I think of my sex/gender it involves what I think.
Funny, I was always under the impression that what I thought about my sex or gender was entirely irrelevant to the reality of it.

Quote:
4. I don’t see how someone coming out as a trans-women diminishes in any way the “value” or “worth” of cis-women, or their struggles for equality.
Agreed.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:34 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you afraid of transgender agendaed telepaths monitoring your thoughts for acceptability?
Let's just say that thoughtcrime is already on the table. Being afraid of being labeled in this situation is rational.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:44 AM   #196
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It's very difficult indeed to tell the sex of many mammals without quite close inspection of the genitals. That doesn't mean they aren't one or the other. Come to that, while many birds are extremely sexually dimorphic, many others require a five-year training course to tell them apart. They're still either male or female, one or the other.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:44 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You have no more right to be protected from a man then I do.

Again I'm sick of this insulting demarcation.

"Not wanting a gay man in my locker room because he might rape me" is homophobic.

"Not wanting transgender people because they might sneak into a shared private space as the other gender and molest/rape me" is transphobic.

"You have to protect me from the straight cis-men because they might rape me" is exactly the same thing. A random straight cis-male in your locker room is exactly the same threat to you as a random gay male in mine is to me. Or a random transgender person in somebody else's.

If the lines people really want drawn in the sand is "Straight Cis-Men" and "Everybody else," which always seems to be the actual goal bubbling under the surface in the discussion, then they need to own it.
Your response has nothing to do with the content of my post.

And regarding this bit: "You have no more right to be protected from a man then I do."

Okay, fine. I have no more right to be protected from men than you do. I do, however, have far more reason to want protection. How many times in your life have you been sexually assaulted? How frequent an occurrence is it for you? What percentage of men do you think have been sexually assaulted in their lifetimes?

Do you think it's about the same as it is for women?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:50 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Finally we in our society often seem obsessed with sex/gender.
It's not just our society. It's also every other society.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:51 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm as willing to commit to as much I am to the premise that men are more violent by nature. Or straight men. Or straight cis-men.
Alright, let's provisionally accept that males are no more violent than females by nature. What factors do you think produce the dramatically disparate rates of violence committed by men? What factors do you think produce the enormous difference in the volume of rapes and sexual assaults between males and females?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 11:58 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Alls I'm saying this idea that straight cis men (and let's be honest if we start pulling at the strings hard enough straight cis white men) are the only group that are supposed to just be happy with it just being assumed that they are going to turn sexually violent the moment society lets its guard down is, to the point that people react with honest confusion and even hostility when anyone doesn't just go along with it something I'm not anywhere near as onboard with as I'm being told I have to be.

"I don't want that gay man in my locker room because he might rape me" is homophobic.

"I don't want that black man in my neighborhood because he might robe me" is racist.

"I don't want that transgender person in my kids school because they might use it to sneak into the wrong bathroom and peeping Tom on my kid" is homophobic.

"I don't want that man near me because he might rape me" isn't just not sexists, it's seen as obvious, indeed self evident.

I'll grant there's legit concerns in there (and no that's not an invitation for hair splitting and drawing lines in the sand) but nowhere near enough for that kind of night and day disparage.

Yeah sure I know you have facts and figures that prove it's necessary. And like I said every racist has the "Blacks are 13.4% of the population but commit 51.1% of the murders" thing memorized too.
I don't think anyone in this thread has expressed any of the caricatured comments that you've presented here.

I'm genuinely unsure what your position is, or what you're arguing, or who you're arguing with.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And no "But you just don't know what it's like being a scawwed widdle woman" isn't a valid counter to any of this.
That's really quite derisive and insulting, by the way.
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