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Old 26th June 2020, 01:32 PM   #1
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Identity culture, echo chambers, and call-out culture

So a few days ago I came across a post on Instagram about a teenage girl who had made an inflammatory post on the same platform about how she didn't care about George Floyd's death, that if he didn't want to get killed he shouldn't have broken the law, and that nothing anyone told her would change her mind. Then she posted some kind of "MAGA" remark. Someone responded angrily and she let slip she had been admitted to a certain place of higher education. Someone contacted said institution and they ended up deciding not to admit her. She also of course probably received lots of angry direct messages.

I don't want to post a link to the story because I don't want the thread to revolve around that particular incident -- it's meant only as an example, or an illustration. Call-out culture, and campaigns to punish, or "cancel" dissenting voices (campaigning hard to get events and speeches involving them cancelled) has become endemic online, as have echo chambers where anyone who disagrees is scolded and kicked out, and this idea that only the members of a certain in-group is even entitled to mention or discuss a given topic, be it the plight of African-Americans, or transgender rights.

I've discussed all kinds of skepticism topics for years and years, from belief in UFOs and supernatural creatures to 9/11 edgelords and antivaxxers. One of the things I've come across when discussing antivax in Norway is a certain kind of... sub-culture of antivaxxer trolls who will harrass and try to sabotage the lives of particularly outspoken people who disagree with them. They will send them hateful messages, carry out smear campaigns, often trying to paint them as bullies or even more horrible things like pedophiles, and, call their employers to try to sabotage their careers. I always considered the latter a particularly vile tactic, and it's come to be something I associate with trolls with no scrouples.

Now, however, calling out, and punishing people for forbidden opinions, or even bad jokes, seems to be becoming more and more common. Not something done only by knuckle-dragging Internet trolls, but by more and more oh so cool and woke Internet activists on anything from LGBTQ+ to BLM supporters. The pattern seems to be that they stay in echo chambers for too long, and/or experience events in society that makes them angry (often very, very rightfully so, let's be honest), and they end up interpreting statements in a far worse way than they were intended, deciding that anyone not in their in-group can't understand or relate to what they're going through or have a qualified opinion, and venting their mounting anger on random people online who are discovered and highlighted by particularly influential individuals. Oh, and obsessing over insignificant, minor details like someone using the wrong word or something in an otherwise innocent post or conversation.

The pattern is pretty clear and worrying: if you meet someone with the wrong views, they're not to be reasoned with or simply ignored, they are to be shamed, shunned, harrassed, and punished. There is no live and let live, or reasoned debates with facts, just us-versus-them. Anyone opining in the thread about the Instagram post I mentioned earlier were told they "supported racism", or for that matter that they had no right to have an opinion in the first place, because of their skin colour. Starting posts with disclaimers like "I hate Trump with a passion, but..." seems more important than ever in this age of emotion and polarisation.

So... what do we do about this, and, if we take a step back from the anecdotes, how big and prevalent a problem is this really? I tried telling them that all of us have views that someone out there finds horrific, and that all of us have made off-colour jokes, or posts we didn't think through properly, or statements in real life or online in an "edgy", provocative manner, and that we can't just go around punishing whoever says something we don't like or agree with. Don't think that made any difference with any of them.

I tried a "how would you like it if it happened to you" approach, pointing out that this probably just creates more vindictiveness and polarisation, and quite possibly more trumpkins, and a stronger idea of "radical triggered libs", but I don't know if that had much of an effect either.

I considered sending a supportive message to the girl in question, telling her that I in no way condoned what she said, or had any love for Trump, but that what happened to her was reprehensible and I wished her all the best (I could do this as they'd of course helpfully posted a link to her profile so that people could pile on and send hate mail), but I have no idea if the person in question had deleted the account and it had since been hijacked, and the trolls appeared to be naming and shaming people reaching out to her for support, too.

So... what do we do about this development, where not only Internet trolls, but also an increasing number of people across the political spectrum are starting to do things like this? And is this actually as big a problem as it seems, or just another case of a minority appearing much bigger than it is by being, well, very vocal?
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:49 PM   #2
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I was just about to post a thread on a very closely related topic, so thank you for saving me the hassle!
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:50 PM   #3
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She was hoping to attend a Christian college, and apparently this Christian college affirms a commitment to Love Thy Neighbor.

She doesn't uphold those values. They don't want her.
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:53 PM   #4
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Apologism for a murder isn't an innocuous opinion.

When it comes to systems that have resulted in vast swaths of murder and misery, there are no low stakes.

I shed no tears for racists that out themselves and get pummeled into the dirt. The stink of racism has been over this country since before it even existed. It's about time we've removed it root and stem. Racists better wise up quick or learn the hard way.

There are times in history where making the wrong judgement call results in dire consequences. Collaborating with an oppression regime is a serious error in character.
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:54 PM   #5
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Can we boiled this down to a proposition, please?

Is it “I am free to speak my brains and you are not free to tell anyone about it?”

Or is it:

“Doxxing is never acceptable”

?
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:57 PM   #6
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Common sense, proportionate response, and thinking carefully before publishing something to the entire globe. Sometimes people overreact, sure. Sometimes they underreact, and sometimes they react just the right amount. The lesson is the same one that applies in so many areas of life: use your damn brain. We all do stupid things sometimes, but we should try not to. Giving a free pass to any and all idiocy wouldn't do anybody favors in the long run.
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Old 26th June 2020, 01:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can we boiled this down to a proposition, please?

Is it “I am free to speak my brains and you are not free to tell anyone about it?”

Or is it:

“Doxxing is never acceptable”

?
Was this an example of doxxing?

Probably a question for Safe-Keeper... Was the "teenage girl" posting under a pseudonym that was reverse engineered to identify her real world identification?
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Was this an example of doxxing?

Probably a question for Safe-Keeper... Was the "teenage girl" posting under a pseudonym that was reverse engineered to identify her real world identification?
I don’t know if it was or not. I want some clarification about what was the issue here.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:06 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Call-out culture, and campaigns to punish, or "cancel" dissenting voices (campaigning hard to get events and speeches involving them cancelled) has become endemic online
'become' ? Wasn't this sort of thing probably the second post ever in an online forum, after "hello"?

Pfft. I remember BBS melodrama as early as the 80s.


Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
, as have echo chambers where anyone who disagrees is scolded and kicked out
Sounds like my dad's Gyro club. Actually, that sounds like pretty much any hangout in the real world since time began.



None of this is new. It sucks, but sometimes I do something in front of people and they decide to do something about it. It's part of adulting.

What's arguably new is that the victims who are getting fired aren't restricted to things like hiding their Jewish grandmother or closeted homosexuality. So, now SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:09 PM   #10
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This is a trend that I also find very disturbing. I see far too many parallels to witch hunts, inquisitions, and persecution of all sorts.

Over the past several years there have been many events that have filled me with trepidation. There was the case of Nick Sandmann, and the altercation in D.C. where he was initially presented as being a racist who was intimidating a native american man. He and his family received death threats, and his school received a lot of public pressure to expel him on the basis of the edited video. Then there was the case of Justine Sacco making an edgy joke on twitter before getting on a plane. By the time she landed, she had been drawn and quartered by the internet, and had been fired due to public outrage. More recently, there is the case of Amy Cooper who threatened to call the police on a black man in a N.Y.C. park. The backlash from social media was so immediate and profound that she was fired in less than a day of the posting, and there is pressure for the professional organizations to which she belongs to remove her credentials.

The degree of transgression in these cases varies, but in all cases there was coercion from a nameless, faceless mob attempting to punish them for their wrongdoings. The punishments, to me, seem far beyond what should be merited.

We live in an age where surveillance is unavoidable. Everyone has a phone capable of taking video, regardless of whether we give our consent or not. We are all under immense scrutiny, in a way I didn't envision when I was younger. I worried about state surveillance of citizens, and potential abuse of that power. I didn't worry that the largest threat would be, not from the government, but from my fellow citizens. I never imagined that the greatest hazard to all of our liberty and livelihood would be the extrajudicial administration of punishment from complete strangers, meted out anonymously.

What concerns me most about this trend is the acceptance of it as right and appropriate by a great many people who consider themselves to be supporters of civil liberties. Several people feel that this form of virtue enforcement via mob is admissible, because they agree with the opinion that underlies the sentiment. I fear the consequences when the principle moves beyond that immediate sentiment, and into the broader enforcement of conformity of thought.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is a trend that I also find very disturbing.
I hate to say it but I don't think it's a 'trend' that mobs have suddenly discovered mob justice - I think we're just seeing ancient human behavior that used to be occult, because online communities are more visible.

Or maybe, it's arguably a trend that it's becoming more visible, I'll agree to that.



ETA: and the reason I'm kinda confused is that Skeptics have quite the history of Johnny Letter Writing. "Hey, I'll bet the university doesn't know that professor does unethical things as a side business, we should tell them," goes back to the first call to action for CSICOP in the 1970s. If trying to get somebody fired by writing their boss, or getting them booted from a degree program is unethical, Skeptics are guilty as charged.

Just a specific datapoint, Dr. Polevoy was absolutely trying to dox "Adam Dreamhealer" when he heard he was in a premed program. The idea being that somebody who hid his past as a fraudulent faith healer should probably not be enrolled in medical school.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So a few days ago I came across a post on Instagram about a teenage girl who had made an inflammatory post on the same platform about how she didn't care about George Floyd's death, that if he didn't want to get killed he shouldn't have broken the law, and that nothing anyone told her would change her mind. Then she posted some kind of "MAGA" remark. Someone responded angrily and she let slip she had been admitted to a certain place of higher education. Someone contacted said institution and they ended up deciding not to admit her. She also of course probably received lots of angry direct messages.

I don't want to post a link to the story because I don't want the thread to revolve around that particular incident -- it's meant only as an example, or an illustration. Call-out culture, and campaigns to punish, or "cancel" dissenting voices (campaigning hard to get events and speeches involving them cancelled) has become endemic online, as have echo chambers where anyone who disagrees is scolded and kicked out, and this idea that only the members of a certain in-group is even entitled to mention or discuss a given topic, be it the plight of African-Americans, or transgender rights.

I've discussed all kinds of skepticism topics for years and years, from belief in UFOs and supernatural creatures to 9/11 edgelords and antivaxxers. One of the things I've come across when discussing antivax in Norway is a certain kind of... sub-culture of antivaxxer trolls who will harrass and try to sabotage the lives of particularly outspoken people who disagree with them. They will send them hateful messages, carry out smear campaigns, often trying to paint them as bullies or even more horrible things like pedophiles, and, call their employers to try to sabotage their careers. I always considered the latter a particularly vile tactic, and it's come to be something I associate with trolls with no scrouples.

Now, however, calling out, and punishing people for forbidden opinions, or even bad jokes, seems to be becoming more and more common. Not something done only by knuckle-dragging Internet trolls, but by more and more oh so cool and woke Internet activists on anything from LGBTQ+ to BLM supporters. The pattern seems to be that they stay in echo chambers for too long, and/or experience events in society that makes them angry (often very, very rightfully so, let's be honest), and they end up interpreting statements in a far worse way than they were intended, deciding that anyone not in their in-group can't understand or relate to what they're going through or have a qualified opinion, and venting their mounting anger on random people online who are discovered and highlighted by particularly influential individuals. Oh, and obsessing over insignificant, minor details like someone using the wrong word or something in an otherwise innocent post or conversation.

The pattern is pretty clear and worrying: if you meet someone with the wrong views, they're not to be reasoned with or simply ignored, they are to be shamed, shunned, harrassed, and punished. There is no live and let live, or reasoned debates with facts, just us-versus-them. Anyone opining in the thread about the Instagram post I mentioned earlier were told they "supported racism", or for that matter that they had no right to have an opinion in the first place, because of their skin colour. Starting posts with disclaimers like "I hate Trump with a passion, but..." seems more important than ever in this age of emotion and polarisation.

So... what do we do about this, and, if we take a step back from the anecdotes, how big and prevalent a problem is this really? I tried telling them that all of us have views that someone out there finds horrific, and that all of us have made off-colour jokes, or posts we didn't think through properly, or statements in real life or online in an "edgy", provocative manner, and that we can't just go around punishing whoever says something we don't like or agree with. Don't think that made any difference with any of them.

I tried a "how would you like it if it happened to you" approach, pointing out that this probably just creates more vindictiveness and polarisation, and quite possibly more trumpkins, and a stronger idea of "radical triggered libs", but I don't know if that had much of an effect either.

I considered sending a supportive message to the girl in question, telling her that I in no way condoned what she said, or had any love for Trump, but that what happened to her was reprehensible and I wished her all the best (I could do this as they'd of course helpfully posted a link to her profile so that people could pile on and send hate mail), but I have no idea if the person in question had deleted the account and it had since been hijacked, and the trolls appeared to be naming and shaming people reaching out to her for support, too.

So... what do we do about this development, where not only Internet trolls, but also an increasing number of people across the political spectrum are starting to do things like this? And is this actually as big a problem as it seems, or just another case of a minority appearing much bigger than it is by being, well, very vocal?

Civilization is a very thin veneer. People love to be part of group. They want to fit in and be on the "right" side. They want to be supported by like minded people. They want to "fit in".
Some studies have shown that belonging to a group makes people more likely to harm others outside the group. Studies also show that anonymity tends to increase the chances that social norms of polite or cooperative behaviour are more likely to be ignored due to the lack of consequences.
The easy access to mass media allows people to be part of a group even when isolated.

Saxe and colleagues recently studied a third factor that cognitive scientists believe may be involved in this group dynamic: the hypothesis that when people are in groups, they "lose touch" with their own morals and beliefs, and become more likely to do things that they would normally believe are wrong.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612104950.htm

To answer the questions in the OP:
Yes, this is a huge problem as reality is often being distorted because no-one is allowed to question the various narratives without being vilified by one side or the other. In this new quasi-Orwellian society personal attacks are considered "righteous" and instead of the state being the only perpetrator of brazenly misleading terminology and manipulation of recorded history - individuals and groups seeking an advantage are using those tactics with great success.
Of course the old paradigm of individual thoughts, ideas, and opinions being the hallmark of reasoned debate has been thoroughly upended and censure and silence are demanded by all sides.
Until the rights of all dissenters to lawfully dissent are recognized as being part of a properly functioning society and are protected from hate and unlawful harassment we will be in this state of tyranny of the shouting extremists long into the foreseeable future.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I hate to say it but I don't think it's a 'trend' that mobs have suddenly discovered mob justice - I think we're just seeing ancient human behavior that used to be occult, because online communities are more visible.

Or maybe, it's arguably a trend that it's becoming more visible, I'll agree to that.



ETA: and the reason I'm kinda confused is that Skeptics have quite the history of Johnny Letter Writing. "Hey, I'll bet the university doesn't know that professor does unethical things as a side business, we should tell them," goes back to the first call to action for CSICOP in the 1970s. If trying to get somebody fired by writing their boss is unethical, Skeptics are guilty as charged.
The tendency isn't new, thus my reference to religious persecution, witch burnings, etc.

What is new is the volume and power being exercised by anonymous strangers, and the avalanche of coercion being leveraged to ruin peoples lives.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The tendency isn't new, thus my reference to religious persecution, witch burnings, etc.

What is new is the volume and power being exercised by anonymous strangers, and the avalanche of coercion being leveraged to ruin peoples lives.
In which case I don't get what you're saying. Just for example, religious persecution and witch burnings usually had the entire power of the state behind them. Armies, justice system, &c.

It feels like your exaggerating.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:41 PM   #15
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Funny how when racism and homophobia was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority viewpoint, but now that the tides have turned we must suddenly worry about protecting people from the wicked mob. I'm sure it's just an amazing coincidence!
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Funny how when racism and homophobia was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority viewpoint, but now that the tides have turned we must suddenly worry about protecting people from the wicked mob. I'm sure it's just an amazing coincidence!
The tables haven't even turned and these people cry.

Sodomy was a crime, punishable by prison time. Some racist getting thrown out of a college isn't comparable. The wokescolds aren't even taking vengeance and these racists cry.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Funny how when racism and homophobia was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority viewpoint, but now that the tides have turned we must suddenly worry about protecting people from the wicked mob. I'm sure it's just an amazing coincidence!
Funny how when patriotism was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority of communist sympathizers, and nobody cared about protecting them from the wicked mob, right?

All those witches and jews surely deserved what they got, is that what you're saying? Or are you merely special pleading, because you agree with the opinion behind the sentiment and haven't bothered to consider the effect of the principle itself?
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:55 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sodomy was a crime, punishable by prison time.
Punishable by death if you go back far enough. You've provided an excellent example of how the majority can go way too far in enforcing social monoculture.
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Old 26th June 2020, 02:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Funny how when patriotism was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority of communist sympathizers, and nobody cared about protecting them from the wicked mob, right?

All those witches and jews surely deserved what they got, is that what you're saying? Or are you merely special pleading, because you agree with the opinion behind the sentiment and haven't bothered to consider the effect of the principle itself?
More that it's the currency and visibility and universality that seems to be motivating rather than the underlying injustice.

Just working around the specific example in the OP, narcing on a fellow student when they break the rules is probably documented and longstanding and *current* school policy, but none of us here were clutching our pearls about it two hours ago.

Angry voice: "Did you see this? There's a school that will kick you out if you break your pledge! Something must be done!" (crickets)

And the scale is so small. She wasn't burned at the stake. She was dismissed per school policy when it was revealed she did something appropriately qualifying.

When I was a kid, we didn't call that a 'witch hunt' - we called that 'busted'.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:01 PM   #20
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Maybe racists worried about social justice should stop broadcasting their opinions in public avenues.

Why do these people feel they should be allowed to publicly state their opinions on something without critique or derision or literal action?

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Old 26th June 2020, 03:03 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Funny how when patriotism was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority of communist sympathizers, and nobody cared about protecting them from the wicked mob, right?

All those witches and jews surely deserved what they got, is that what you're saying? Or are you merely special pleading, because you agree with the opinion behind the sentiment and haven't bothered to consider the effect of the principle itself?
This time around we'll assess malevolent actors by the damage that is actually done. Unlike conspiracy theories about Jews or witches, we have petty concrete evidence of the damage done by racists, homophobes, and other bigots.

Pretty strange to draw an analogy to witches when the supposed "victim" here is someone celebrating an extrajudicial killing.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:08 PM   #22
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Well, this went sideways. It seems to have been completely missed that I am not responding to the specific case mentioned in the OP, but rather to the pattern of behavior and action that deprives people of their livelihoods and issues death threats to children.

But carry on. It will be interesting when the public censure and outrage harms someone you support.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well, this went sideways. It seems to have been completely missed that I am not responding to the specific case mentioned in the OP, but rather to the pattern of behavior and action that deprives people of their livelihoods and issues death threats to children.

But carry on. It will be interesting when the public censure and outrage harms someone you support.
Context is important. Trying to lump all "cancel culture" together is a generalization that doesn't withstand scrutiny.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Funny how when patriotism was culturally acceptable there was no concern about protecting the minority of communist sympathizers, and nobody cared about protecting them from the wicked mob, right?

All those witches and jews surely deserved what they got, is that what you're saying? Or are you merely special pleading, because you agree with the opinion behind the sentiment and haven't bothered to consider the effect of the principle itself?
Interesting that you think "patriotism" and "communism" are antithetical. Don't know where you're getting "witches and Jews" from -- do you think a pogrom is equivalent of getting fired from Wendy's for making a racist remark?

I think it's safe to assume that absolutely anything you follow with "is that what you're saying?" the answer is "no", because it's a hyperbolic strawman. I've already stated my principles above, which are: "Common sense, proportionate response, and thinking carefully before publishing something to the entire globe."
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:13 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What concerns me most about this trend is the acceptance of it as right and appropriate by a great many people who consider themselves to be supporters of civil liberties. Several people feel that this form of virtue enforcement via mob is admissible, because they agree with the opinion that underlies the sentiment. I fear the consequences when the principle moves beyond that immediate sentiment, and into the broader enforcement of conformity of thought.
...
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Common sense, proportionate response, and thinking carefully before publishing something to the entire globe."
!!!
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:17 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can we boiled this down to a proposition, please?

Is it “I am free to speak my brains and you are not free to tell anyone about it?”

Or is it:

“Doxxing is never acceptable”

?
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:21 PM   #28
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It's an interesting and important topic, but the lack of focus makes it hard to post my opinion(s).

I'll give the thread a bit of time to mature.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can we boiled this down to a proposition, please?

Is it “I am free to speak my brains and you are not free to tell anyone about it?”

Or is it:

“Doxxing is never acceptable”

?
I'd aim between the two. It's foolish to publish absolutely anything without discretion, and doubly foolish to expect no negative consequences to ensue. But equally responses should be proportionate to the offense, and not overreaction. If Bubba Sue posts a picture of herself in her Confederate flag thong, yeah, laugh at her, and don't invite her to your pool party, but that's as far as you need to go. If Nurse Killfest posts a video explaining how she deliberately drops all the black babies in the NICU where she works then yes, kick up a huge stink at once.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:25 PM   #30
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Do you think it's OK to tell you that I fly the American flag without me being called a Fascist?

Or will you guys dox me as a racist, and umm, ...umm... take my medicare away?

You folks seem to think I am in the minority, but you still call me names. Doesn't seem very Liberal or accepting to me. What ever happened to "I disagree with what he says, but I support his right to say it."?

I smell a hint of hypocrisy.

I fly the flag as a symbol of solidarity. We are ALL Americans. It SHOULD be flown higher than your other flags- rainbow, BLM, Mexican, you are all Americans- first. Even the California flag down that street. Or my Lithuanian flag.

And if my flag should get torn down, I can replace it with the one that was draped across the coffin of a fighter of REAL fascism. Or would you rather be typing in German?

But all of today's rhetoric is all first world problems. Just ask the immigrants on my street, they are paying $2200/month rent (successful Americans) , NOT to live elsewhere. Elsewheres like Viet Nam, Ethiopia, Somalia, Mexico, China. They know what real fascism is. And they fly the flag too. Dox them, *************.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
!!!
Yes, but your explanation of what should or should not be published is very vague, as if it's magically self-evident. It basically boils down to "if what you have to say might make someone* angry, then you shouldn't say it"





*Of course "someone" in this context doesn't seem to apply to all people, just to some people, and there's no explanation of which people are the ones who people should fear to anger.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's an interesting and important topic, but the lack of focus makes it hard to post my opinion(s).
Agreed! Let's talk about canceling Richard Carrier in particular. Or Ben Radford. Or Michael Shermer. Or Neil Tyson. Or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Or Linda Bellos. (Etc. & so forth...)

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Old 26th June 2020, 03:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Do you think it's OK to tell you that I fly the American flag without me being called a Fascist?

Or will you guys dox me as a racist, and umm, ...umm... take my medicare away?

You folks seem to think I am in the minority, but you still call me names. Doesn't seem very Liberal or accepting to me. What ever happened to "I disagree with what he says, but I support his right to say it."?

I smell a hint of hypocrisy.

I fly the flag as a symbol of solidarity. We are ALL Americans. It SHOULD be flown higher than your other flags- rainbow, BLM, Mexican, you are all Americans- first. Even the California flag down that street. Or my Lithuanian flag.

And if my flag should get torn down, I can replace it with the one that was draped across the coffin of a fighter of REAL fascism. Or would you rather be typing in German?

But all of today's rhetoric is all first world problems. Just ask the immigrants on my street, they are paying $2200/month rent (successful Americans) , NOT to live elsewhere. Elsewheres like Viet Nam, Ethiopia, Somalia, Mexico, China. They know what real fascism is. And they fly the flag too. Dox them, *************.
Just when you thought parody was dead.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd aim between the two. It's foolish to publish absolutely anything without discretion, and doubly foolish to expect no negative consequences to ensue. But equally responses should be proportionate to the offense, and not overreaction. If Bubba Sue posts a picture of herself in her Confederate flag thong, yeah, laugh at her, and don't invite her to your pool party, but that's as far as you need to go. If Nurse Killfest posts a video explaining how she deliberately drops all the black babies in the NICU where she works then yes, kick up a huge stink at once.
So, what about Amy Cooper? I don't approve of her actions... but she didn't post the video herself. She did objected to being videoed, and she did not consent to that video of her being posted at all. She also did not provide her own identification. Someone else recognized her and made her name and employer public knowledge. Where does your position come into play on this one? Does she deserve what she got? Is it meet and appropriate that she be fired due to demand by social media? Is it appropriate that the internet mob is seeking to have her professional credentials taken away?

And what about Nick Sandmann? He didn't publish anything, he didn't expose himself voluntarily... and what was posted was not even a full and accurate representation of the interaction. Where do you stand on what happened to him? Do you feel that he and his family receiving death threats was appropriate? Do you feel that social warrior pressure to expel him from his school were justified? And if not, what do you think *he* should have done to avoid the mob response?
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:33 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, but your explanation of what should or should not be published is very vague, as if it's magically self-evident.
Because it's common sense and up to the individual to decide. And gamble on.

What is with you that you insist on having some outside source make an official ruling? That's not life, there's not a great big kindergarten teacher going to make the call and remove the need to think about it ourselves, individually, every time.

Quote:
It basically boils down to "if what you have to say might make someone* angry, then you shouldn't say it"
Absolutely not by any stretch a reasonable interpretation of what I said.


Quote:
*Of course "someone" in this context doesn't seem to apply to all people, just to some people, and there's no explanation of which people are the ones who people should fear to anger.
You really don't get it, do you? Everyone must utilize sense and judgment. I get the impression you are looking for official declarations of Waivers From Responsibility. Those are only for children beneath the age of reason, the severely mentally ill, and those being coerced somehow against their will.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because it's common sense and up to the individual to decide. And gamble on.

What is with you that you insist on having some outside source make an official ruling? That's not life, there's not a great big kindergarten teacher going to make the call and remove the need to think about it ourselves, individually, every time.



Absolutely not by any stretch a reasonable interpretation of what I said.




You really don't get it, do you? Everyone must utilize sense and judgment. I get the impression you are looking for official declarations of Waivers From Responsibility. Those are only for children beneath the age of reason, the severely mentally ill, and those being coerced somehow against their will.
I'm talking about the development of a social norm here, not some external authority.

Right now, the social norm being created and put in place is that if a person says something that "society" deems to be "bad", then "society" is right to persecute that person, and people associated with them, as well as anyone who opposes their persecution. The norm that is bubbling up is that "society" can, by force, deny livelihood to anyone that "society" decides isn't good enough. "Society" can issue death threats to individuals, their families, and their employers in order to evict the transgressor from that society.

That is absolutely something I think needs to be discussed. Because right now, leaving it up to each individual to try to decide whether or not they should say anything is kowtowing to a mob. And there's absolutely no reason to think that this mob will stop where you or I think they should stop. There's no guarantee that this mob will not decide that something you and I hold dear is now verbotten.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:46 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So, what about Amy Cooper?
She showed her stupid racist ass in public, lying to the police and misusing public resources.

Quote:
I don't approve of her actions...
Glad to hear it.

Quote:
but she didn't post the video herself. She did objected to being videoed, and she did not consent to that video of her being posted at all.
No legal expectation of privacy in a public place, interacting with the public. She didn't mind acting like that, she's just upset she got caught.

Quote:
She also did not provide her own identification. Someone else recognized her and made her name and employer public knowledge.
Something she should have realized was likely to happen before she showed her whole stupid racist ass in public.

Quote:
Where does your position come into play on this one?
Let's see. Did she use common sense? No. Did she think carefully before publishing to the entire world? She didn't publish but she must have known someone else would. So again no.

Quote:
Does she deserve what she got? Is it meet and appropriate that she be fired due to demand by social media?
Proportionate response? I think so. She's a lying bigot with a proven example of being very, very stupid. That's not a good look for an employer, she is an embarrassment to them and it would be mad of them to keep her on.

Quote:
Is it appropriate that the internet mob is seeking to have her professional credentials taken away?
Depends on what the credentials are. I don't know. I note the inflammatory language you're using here, "mob", indeed. Is all public response a "mob" when you disagree with what they do or say?

Quote:
And what about Nick Sandmann? He didn't publish anything, he didn't expose himself voluntarily... and what was posted was not even a full and accurate representation of the interaction. Where do you stand on what happened to him?
Was he that smirky kid who got involved in a public confrontation? Yes, I know he didn't do what was initially claimed. I don't think anybody should get involved in public confrontations unless there is overriding reason to do so, like preventing someone from being harmed. So I think he shouldn't have done what little he did, the public overreacted to what turned out to be false information, and nobody involved in that particular contretemps comes out looking good.

There isn't always a "good" and "bad" side in every conflict. Sometimes everybody's a jerk.

Quote:
Do you feel that he and his family receiving death threats was appropriate? Do you feel that social warrior pressure to expel him from his school were justified?
Of course not. Those are disproportionate responses, even if he had been guilty of the sins of which he was accused. I note again the inflammatory language; if you want to pretend objectivity you may want to avoid that.

Quote:
And if not, what do you think *he* should have done to avoid the mob response?
Kept himself to himself and minded his own business. It's something most people should do in public. There are several cultures that place great importance on not making public scenes and spectacles, and I think that is admirable.
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Old 26th June 2020, 03:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm talking about the development of a social norm here, not some external authority.

Right now, the social norm being created and put in place is that if a person says something that "society" deems to be "bad", then "society" is right to persecute that person, and people associated with them, as well as anyone who opposes their persecution. The norm that is bubbling up is that "society" can, by force, deny livelihood to anyone that "society" decides isn't good enough. "Society" can issue death threats to individuals, their families, and their employers in order to evict the transgressor from that society.

That is absolutely something I think needs to be discussed. Because right now, leaving it up to each individual to try to decide whether or not they should say anything is kowtowing to a mob. And there's absolutely no reason to think that this mob will stop where you or I think they should stop. There's no guarantee that this mob will not decide that something you and I hold dear is now verbotten.
I think you are running the edge of a paranoid delusion here. People reacting to stuff they hear about is not a new "social norm". There is not some "mob" out to persecute you for your wicked hot takes on issues. If you are terrified that what you say might make you unpopular then perhaps you ought to use common sense about what you say and where you publish it. Do you not now exercise judgment and consider your audience when you speak? Do you talk about sex at the dinner table with the grandparents and the archbishop? Do you talk about controversial politics at work with your coworkers? Do you complain about the servants in front of the servants? If not then congratulations! you're already a victim of this dreadful mob called "other people"!
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Old 26th June 2020, 04:01 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
She didn't publish but she must have known someone else would.
....


Was he that smirky kid who got involved in a public confrontation? ...
Kept himself to himself and minded his own business.
I think you should amend your prior position statement of "Common sense, proportionate response, and thinking carefully before publishing something to the entire globe."

In neither case did either of those people publish anything. In both cases, it was published by someone else without their consent. But in both cases, you seem just fine with it having been published by force by someone else who took offense.

So perhaps, it shouldn't be "use common sense before publishing to the entire world"... but rather "live in fear that someone might publish something without your consent".

You also say that Nick Sandmann should have kept to himself and minded his own business... but that's exactly what he did do. He was keeping to himself, and he was minding his own business. He didn't get involved in a public confrontation - a public confrontation was forced upon him. He did nothing but stand there. Do you perhaps mean to say that he should have run away when there was someone of color nearby, and his keeping to himself might possible be used against him by someone publishing without his consent the fact that he was keeping to himself and minding his own business?
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Old 26th June 2020, 04:03 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I note the inflammatory language you're using here, "mob", indeed. Is all public response a "mob" when you disagree with what they do or say?
When the public response is from a relatively small group of people, who are safely anonymous, and who are publicizing something with the agenda of creating outrage... and when the public response involves death threats and coercion.. I rather think "mob" is the appropriate term.
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