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Old 7th July 2020, 07:41 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What happened to change, 'disapproving of what you say' to 'trying to censor me'?
I think you hit on an important change in these types of discussions, it seems taking action to prevent someone using your resources to make statements you don't agree with or really have any kind of objection to is now viewed as censorship and an attack on your freedom of expression.

A publisher not publishing my book is not a publisher censoring me or damaging my right to freedom of expression.
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Old 7th July 2020, 07:47 AM   #322
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While racism is real and systemic. I can almost guarantee that any solution that is proposed with primarily affect the people that need it the least. You mostly I have see people of color playing identity politics at work that are generally among the most privileged members of society and I expect that the lions share of the benefit will go to them. Not to the people living in the ghetto because they are too much trouble.
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Old 7th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You think Roseanne Barr getting fired for being an open racist and general kook was regrettable?

It's amazing that anyone at a network ever trusted her in the first place. She honestly seems to be mentally unwell and probably should not be making television shows.
I never liked her comedy. I never liked her on-screen persona, and I assume she wasn't incredibly different in real life. I think I've seen about 10 minutes of her TV show.

But yeah, I think it was regrettable that she was fired over one, single, tweet. I don't even recall what it was. I vaguely recall it was an insult toward another celebrity that could have been interpreted as a racist remark.
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Old 7th July 2020, 01:02 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why is more speech meant to be an answer to the harm that someone's speech causes?
If society allows the response to emotional harm from speech to be action and force, then we quickly become a society of might makes right, enforcing beliefs on others through violence.
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Old 7th July 2020, 02:13 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Americans allow Marxist/Leninists to speak freely, form student associations and political parties, run for office, etc. even though we know full well that some of the most terrifying and effective political purges in human history sprang from StalinismWP, MaoismWP and KimismWP. Should we stop tolerating communism because of the murderously intolerant regimes that sprang therefrom?
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm not sure if I can agree here, as a consequentialist. I mean, yeah, compare principles if that's all you've got on hand to compare. Otherwise, compare results.
If you were to bother actually comparing results you'd easily find that socialist countries have by far (seriously, it's not even in the same ballpark) better results in most measures than capitalist countries.
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Old 7th July 2020, 02:28 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Comparing outcomes w/ outcomes is comparing like with like. Both fascism and communism, in practice, resulted in murderously intolerant regimes. That should be enough to invoke "the paradox of tolerance" if it's to be our guiding principle as to what sorts of political speech should be permitted in a liberal democracy.
What an utter load of pure ideological posturing being presented as if it were some sort of objective comparison of outcomes. Want a comparison?

Try comparing the number of people starving in capitalist countries versus socialist countries when there is sufficient food. And before you go on about some famine that happened once in the USSR, note the "when there is sufficient food" condition - it's one thing to fail to feed people when there is physically not enough food to go around, it's quite another to do so when there's a surplus of food to go around. That comparison amounts to basically no deaths for socialist countries and about 10 million people per year for capitalist countries.

Or try comparing the number of people dying because of poverty, being homeless or refused medical treatment. That amounts to basically no deaths in socialist countries and hundreds of thousands per year in the USA alone.

Your liberal capitalist regimes are, by any objective standard based on actual outcome comparisons, much more murderous than any socialist regime.
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Old 7th July 2020, 04:03 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you were to bother actually comparing results you'd easily find that socialist countries have by far (seriously, it's not even in the same ballpark) better results in most measures than capitalist countries.
I was talking about Marxism and it's offspring.

Are you?

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Old 7th July 2020, 04:11 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What an utter load of pure ideological posturing being presented as if it were some sort of objective comparison of outcomes. Want a comparison?

...

Your liberal capitalist regimes are, by any objective standard based on actual outcome comparisons, much more murderous than any socialist regime.
Huh. Usually I see supporters of socialism insisting that socialism is very distinct from communism and fascism, rather than conflating them.
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Old 7th July 2020, 04:47 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I was talking about Marxism and it's offspring.

Are you?
Yes.
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Old 7th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If society allows the response to emotional harm from speech to be action and force, then we quickly become a society of might makes right, enforcing beliefs on others through violence.
"emotional harm"?
Hurt feelings?
Are we seriously discussing real-world sanctions, up to and including financial and professional damage over hurt feelings?
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Old 7th July 2020, 04:54 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes.
Okay, so pick one democratic socialist nation and show me how and when they put Marxists in charge.

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Old 7th July 2020, 05:02 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so pick one democratic socialist nation and show me how and when they put Marxists in charge.
The USSR in 1917.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:05 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The USSR in 1917.
Cool.

At what point did they kill fewer dissidents and starve fewer citizens than the free west?

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Old 7th July 2020, 05:08 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What an utter load of pure ideological posturing being presented as if it were some sort of objective comparison of outcomes. Want a comparison?

Try comparing the number of people starving in capitalist countries versus socialist countries when there is sufficient food. And before you go on about some famine that happened once in the USSR, note the "when there is sufficient food" condition - it's one thing to fail to feed people when there is physically not enough food to go around, it's quite another to do so when there's a surplus of food to go around. That comparison amounts to basically no deaths for socialist countries and about 10 million people per year for capitalist countries.

Or try comparing the number of people dying because of poverty, being homeless or refused medical treatment. That amounts to basically no deaths in socialist countries and hundreds of thousands per year in the USA alone.

Your liberal capitalist regimes are, by any objective standard based on actual outcome comparisons, much more murderous than any socialist regime.
This seems interesting to me. I wonder if you could clarify.

An initial quibble I have with your claim is that you seem to attribute all global hunger deaths to capitalism, and are excluding the Russian famine because there was a famine. Are there no socialist countries where people are dying of hunger? Eritrea seems like an example. Is there no hunger in North Korea? It seems unfair to count the deaths from starvation in socialist countries against capitalism. Then we have the issue that lots of these countries have starved under both socialism and capitalism. Maybe their issues go beyond capitalism and socialism?

Should we exclude all the deaths in capitalist countries due to famine as well? I imagine that will cut the number down by a lot.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:12 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you were to bother actually comparing results you'd easily find that socialist countries have by far (seriously, it's not even in the same ballpark) better results in most measures than capitalist countries.
Isn't there some quote from Khrushchev along those lines? I remember reading that he thawed relations with the US because he was confident a centrally planned socialist economy would obviously beat a capitalist one, so they just had to wait for the inevitable victory.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:14 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Cool.

At what point did they kill fewer dissidents and starve fewer citizens than the free west?
Was there a point when they didn't? I suppose you could do a year-by-year check and possibly find some years where they killed more than capitalist regimes but that's not really a way to make an informed comparison, better is to look at the average over, say, a century or so.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:23 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Was there a point when they didn't? I suppose you could do a year-by-year check and possibly find some years where they killed more than capitalist regimes but that's not really a way to make an informed comparison, better is to look at the average over, say, a century or so.
Your numbers for deaths from starvation where wrong though, and not obviously due to the economic system. What other deaths are you talking about? It feels like you are systematically not counting deaths in socialist countries.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:24 PM   #338
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Plus, none of the starvation deaths you were talking about were in the west. Those 10 million deaths per year are in Africa and South East Asia. Are we counting deaths in socialist African countries as deaths in the "free west" due to capitalism?

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Old 7th July 2020, 05:27 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This seems interesting to me. I wonder if you could clarify.

An initial quibble I have with your claim is that you seem to attribute all global hunger deaths to capitalism, and are excluding the Russian famine because there was a famine. Are there no socialist countries where people are dying of hunger? Eritrea seems like an example. Is there no hunger in North Korea? It seems unfair to count the deaths from starvation in socialist countries against capitalism. Then we have the issue that lots of these countries have starved under both socialism and capitalism. Maybe their issues go beyond capitalism and socialism?

Should we exclude all the deaths in capitalist countries due to famine as well? I imagine that will cut the number down by a lot.
Eritrea has a population of about 6 million, there's no way yearly starvation deaths in Eritrea (how many are there even?) are going to have a significant influence on the 10 million deaths per year figure. I don't think North Korea is even included in these figures, as data isn't generally available from there.

As for excluding the Soviet famine of 1933, I'm excluding it for the lack of food. If your grain stores are empty and people starve then it's not (at least not directly) the fault of the regime or economic system, you can't hand out food that doesn't exist. That's quite different from starvation in capitalist countries where full grain stores exist but people are refused to take it because they "can't pay for it" or some other ideological stance (we are, after all, comparing ideologies here based on their results). Of course, if you have examples of starvation deaths in capitalist countries that were due to there being a lack of food then those should be discounted as well. But that's not what kills most people who starve under capitalist regimes, as can be seen by famines being singular events (for example the Soviet famine of 1933, after the next harvest there was enough food again and people stopped starving) whereas the 10 million per year starving in capitalist regimes is a constant ongoing occurrence even though there is enough food being produced to feed 10 billion people.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:35 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Your numbers for deaths from starvation where wrong though, and not obviously due to the economic system. What other deaths are you talking about? It feels like you are systematically not counting deaths in socialist countries.
How were they wrong?

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Plus, none of the starvation deaths you were talking about were in the west. Those 10 million deaths per year are in Africa and South East Asia. Are we counting deaths in socialist African countries as deaths in the "free west" due to capitalism?
Why would it matter where they are? We're comparing ideological regimes here, capitalism vs socialism, you can't just cherry-pick a handful of countries out of many. And especially with the cherry-picking you're just comparing apples and oranges, the "free west" was well-developed and rich already in 1917 due to its colonial ventures whereas Russia right before the revolution was still an agrarian medieval serfdom which was already starving every couple of years.

I suppose you could take similar countries in Africa, some of which went socialist (say, Burkina Faso) and some remained capitalist (say, Congo) and compare them.
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Old 7th July 2020, 05:57 PM   #341
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What countries would you consider capitalist today. China seems to be kind of socialist and capitalist.
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Old 7th July 2020, 06:00 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What countries would you consider capitalist today. China seems to be kind of socialist and capitalist.
Then who is this "Chinese Communist Party" that the Right claims is responsible for Covid 19?
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Old 7th July 2020, 06:01 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
What countries would you consider capitalist today. China seems to be kind of socialist and capitalist.
Almost all of them are, there are perhaps a handful socialist countries remaining (Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, and that's pretty much it these days I think) with China being a bit of both although still much more on the socialist side than the capitalist side.
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Old 7th July 2020, 06:08 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Then who is this "Chinese Communist Party" that the Right claims is responsible for Covid 19?
They are the authoritarian regime who I believe are attempting to use a capitalist market economy as a stepping stone to communism. I think your argument is with somebody other than me.

I get the impression, by socialism here we are meaning "implements a centrally planned Marxist economy", but who knows?

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Old 7th July 2020, 06:22 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Almost all of them are, there are perhaps a handful socialist countries remaining (Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, and that's pretty much it these days I think) with China being a bit of both although still much more on the socialist side than the capitalist side.
OK. So socialism has been so unsuccessful that almost no countries are socialist today. Those that are are generally poor. Are you trolling when you compare absolute numbers of deaths in socialist countries with capitalist ones? If I compared the absolute number of deaths at Hilton hotels and compared it to Jeffrey Dahmer's house, far more people will have died at Hilton hotels but that hardly means Jeffrey Dahmer was a gentler and more considerate host.
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Old 7th July 2020, 07:07 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
As for excluding the Soviet famine of 1933, I'm excluding it for the lack of food.
Seems like you could exclude most famines that way...

Here follows a list of major 20th century famines:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/ten-wor...815-1iu2w.html

Without excluding any of them for "lack of food" can we see any patterns as to overarching ideology guiding the distribution of scarce resources?
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Old 7th July 2020, 07:13 PM   #347
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I guess I misunderstood the thread title. I didn't realize the "identity" in question was how closely historical states married their politics to the practices of socialism. I thought it was going to be more about the intersectionality of a gay deaf Asian-American calling a FtM African-American little person a "Karen" when she threatens someone over a parking space at Wal-Mart. Both topics are fairly stupid, but at least the latter would have been juicier and more fun to argue about.
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Old 7th July 2020, 08:30 PM   #348
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I don’t know if there is a good way to deal with this development as you put it. Ideally, people would just adhere to the core principles of liberalism and our society’s ethos of freedom of thought and not try to cancel other people, especially teenagers, for having bad opinions or speaking disparagingly about others.

However we don’t live in an ideal world, and I don’t know what to do.
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Old 7th July 2020, 08:40 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Almost all of them are, there are perhaps a handful socialist countries remaining (Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, DPRK, and that's pretty much it these days I think) with China being a bit of both although still much more on the socialist side than the capitalist side.
Much more on the ethno-fascist side than the capitalist side. — Ftfy
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Old 7th July 2020, 10:22 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Seems like you could exclude most famines that way...

Here follows a list of major 20th century famines:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/ten-wor...815-1iu2w.html

Without excluding any of them for "lack of food" can we see any patterns as to overarching ideology guiding the distribution of scarce resources?
Yes, the same pattern as always, capitalists with a vested interest in anti-communism publishing pieces in their private outlets that are sheer propaganda.

One method used to mislead is giving highly inflated death tolls for famines in socialist countries, for example the death toll of the North-Korean famine is estimated at 600.000 and not 3 million as your article claims, of the Russian famine of 1921-22 at 5 million and not 9 million, of the Ukrainian famine of 1933 at 3 million and not 8 million, etc.

Another method used to mislead is leaving out famines which occurred outside of socialist countries, for example the 1907 East-China famine with a death toll of 25 million which is conspicuously absent from this top 10 even though having the second-highest (perhaps even highest, estimates overlap) death toll in the 20th century.

Other methods are blatant lies about the measures taken by socialist governments in response to famines, for example the claim "When people in the Ukraine reported a famine, Stalin punished them by refusing to send them food aid" - the reality is the opposite, when the government learned of the famine grain requisitions were halted and massive food aid was sent to the affected regions in Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

Basically you have a piece of worthless propagandistic junk, which you could've easily learned yourself by even something as simple as checking the list of famines on Wikipedia.
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Old 8th July 2020, 12:26 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
... She honestly seems to be mentally unwell and probably should not be making television shows.
This is the sort of comment that leads to people getting doxxed, harassed and sacked. You are clearly expressing prejudice against people with mental health problems. You are saying that they should not be employed. You use a derogatory term about people with mental health problems (the K word), that I will not repeat.

This pretty much is the same sort of phraseology as tweets that get people sacked.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/m...ccos-life.html

Now I am certainly not going to spread your comments any more widely than this post or take any other action. But I just want to make the point this is an example of what could cause a twitter storm etc.
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Old 8th July 2020, 04:23 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is the sort of comment that leads to people getting doxxed, harassed and sacked. You are clearly expressing prejudice against people with mental health problems. You are saying that they should not be employed. You use a derogatory term about people with mental health problems (the K word), that I will not repeat.

This pretty much is the same sort of phraseology as tweets that get people sacked.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/m...ccos-life.html

Now I am certainly not going to spread your comments any more widely than this post or take any other action. But I just want to make the point this is an example of what could cause a twitter storm etc.
As time has passed, I think it's become increasingly clear that Roseanne seems to have some sort of mental health issue.

With that knowledge, I think it reflects very poorly on the television executives that gave her such a platform to spout her racist nonsense. They should have known better. It's hard to imagine that Barr kept her mental illness a secret during the phases of making the new show, and it was irresponsible to allow the project to proceed forward knowing that it would likely end poorly for all involved, especially Barr.

I'm not aware of mental illness causing racism. Seems more likely to me that Barr is just feeling less inhibited and let the mask slip.

Feel free to try to cancel me. There's already too many turkeys digging through trash in Norwood. We could do with one less.
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Old 8th July 2020, 05:49 AM   #353
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I can't see this sort of thing ending any other way than torches, pitchforks, someone being dragged from their home and getting lynched in the street, as an ironic display of extracurricular justice.
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Old 8th July 2020, 06:16 AM   #354
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What even is cancel culture?

https://twitter.com/IMAO_/status/1280684641377234944

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/stat...03481531912192

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Old 8th July 2020, 07:01 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
What even is cancel culture?
Political correctness after it has been "levelled up".
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:08 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Political correctness after it has been "levelled up".
Cancel culture has always existed. Certain ideas have always been unpopular enough that publicly stating them resulted in social ostracism.

Right wingers are mad now that racism and other bigotry, which had previously been considered fair play, is now on the list of socially damnable behavior.
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:09 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cancel culture has always existed. Certain ideas have always been unpopular enough that publicly stating them resulted in social ostracism.
Yeah but the term has a more specific meaning. I don't think cancel culture would've been possible in the way it's understood today without the internet.
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Old 8th July 2020, 07:10 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Political correctness after it has been "levelled up".
I think you are correct, but I think it is more blantent than what the right did when they created the strawman of "political correctness" so whether it will garner the usage as a means of attacking the left-wing with "political correctness gone mad" did for the right is still up in the air.
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Old 8th July 2020, 08:31 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cancel culture has always existed. Certain ideas have always been unpopular enough that publicly stating them resulted in social ostracism.
I don't think “Let’s see what your employer thinks about what you said.” counts as mere social ostracism, though.
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Old 8th July 2020, 08:34 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think “Let’s see what your employer thinks about what you said.” counts as mere social ostracism, though.
You are aware that people were blacklisted for being suspected leftists and other undesirable opinions, right? Or being gay, or for supporting the wrong foreign governments, etc.

Holding a sufficiently "wrong" opinion has long been the express route to unemployment in this country. Right wingers are only crying because now they are in the spotlight, rather than their previous victims.
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