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Old 24th July 2020, 08:41 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Seems like a slippery slope argument from where I'm sitting.
Not at all. We've already seen the rest of the slope.

Quote:
How does one get from he/she/they (which seems simple enough to me) to delusional individuals demanding to be perceived as royalty?
Some people are saying that it's delusional to demand to be perceived as a different gender.

Maybe it isn't, but I'm not sure it's reasonable either.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:42 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Um, okay. How about "It isn't really all that difficult to remember he/she/they."
It's not difficult to remember I identify as a dragon either.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:43 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not at all. We've already seen the rest of the slope.
We slide down that slope a long time ago.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:10 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How does one get from he/she/they (which seems simple enough to me) to delusional individuals demanding to be perceived as royalty?


Trans Royalty Is Royalty. Don't be a bigot.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:22 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's not difficult to remember I identify as a dragon either.
I'd already forgotten whether it was you or some other commenter.

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Old 24th July 2020, 09:26 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd already forgotten whether it was you or some other commenter.
See?
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:45 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See?
Yes, Imperator Dragon.

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Old 24th July 2020, 09:49 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yes, Imperator Dragon.

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No, it's MASTER.

See how hard it is to keep track of everyone's subjective desires?
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:58 AM   #369
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Not really a fitting analogy, though, people just making up random stuff to be called. The nonbinary thing is simply a third state on a well-established duality. Male, female, neither. Hardly the same as male, female, dragon spaghetti taco nonsense. Disagree all you want with the notion that someone can be neither male nor female, but don't pretend that nonbinary is the same as wanting to be called Tsar of all the Russias or a werewolf. It's intellectually dishonest, cheap sneers, and it's kind of been done to death already with "attack helicopter" looooong ago.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:04 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not really a fitting analogy, though, people just making up random stuff to be called.
But that's the thing: no one has access to your own thoughts so to anyone else there's really no distinction between a random stuff to be called and a pronoun like Zie.

Quote:
The nonbinary thing is simply a third state on a well-established duality.
Considering that each person may have their own pronouns, and that already Damion has managed to confuse three people in this thread, I submit that it's actually not very simple.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:11 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But that's the thing: no one has access to your own thoughts so to anyone else there's really no distinction between a random stuff to be called and a pronoun like Zie.
And are any of these uppity nonbinaries yelling at people for not reading their minds? If so, then they are clearly being ridiculous. However that doesn't seem to be the dispute here: the dispute seems to be nonbinary people are saying "please call me 'they' " and the people they ask are refusing to because of...freedom? Rigid adherence to the concept of duality in gender? Fastidiousness with grammar?

Quote:
Considering that each person may have their own pronouns, and that already Damion has managed to confuse three people in this thread, I submit that it's actually not very simple.
It's simpler than inventing crazy things to be called and implying those things are exactly equivalent to using "they" upon request. "Call me 'they'". OMG that's so complex I can't comprehend it! It's BREAKING MY MIND!!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!

Just pretend they're Borg and address them as if they're the collective instead of one individual. That will quell any grammar fastidiousness as well as add a jolt of sci-fi fun to your day!
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:21 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And are any of these uppity nonbinaries yelling at people for not reading their minds? If so, then they are clearly being ridiculous. However that doesn't seem to be the dispute here: the dispute seems to be nonbinary people are saying "please call me 'they' " and the people they ask are refusing to because of...freedom? Rigid adherence to the concept of duality in gender? Fastidiousness with grammar?
I was addressing your objection that "Master" was fanciful while "Zie" or "Ma'am" is not. You're reading too much into it.

Quote:
It's simpler than inventing crazy things to be called and implying those things are exactly equivalent to using "they" upon request. "Call me 'they'". OMG that's so complex I can't comprehend it! It's BREAKING MY MIND!!!!! ARGH!!!!!!!!
Again, you should pay attention to the discussion. One person said "master", the other "imperator". One poster managed to mix these up within a few minutes. And that's the thing: we call people "mister" and "madam" and such because we have objective parameters we can observe. But one person wants "they", the other one wants "Zie", and the other one wants something else; it'd become hard to keep track of everything. Might as well just call people by their names, as you suggested earlier.

If it was just "they", it'd indeed be simple, but that's not what's being proposed.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:23 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If it was just "they", it'd indeed be simple, but that's not what's being proposed.
*checks OP*



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Old 24th July 2020, 10:26 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
*checks OP*

Sorry, the OP doesn't talk about pronouns. What's your confusion?
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:53 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, the OP doesn't talk about pronouns. What's your confusion?
Please click the tweet from the OP which (at least partially) explains—in gigantic stylized letters—what is being asked of us binaries.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:55 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Please click the tweet which explains what is being asked.
Can't see Twitter here.

Anyway I'm not talking about the OP. I'm talking about the general discussion about new pronouns. There's quite a bit of them.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:58 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Can't see Twitter here.
Take my word for it that the Tweet centers the image from post #373.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Anyway I'm not talking about the OP. I'm talking about the general discussion about new pronouns. There's quite a bit of them.
Have you ever met someone—even on the internet—who asks or expects you to use neologistic pronouns?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:01 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Have you ever met someone—even on the internet—who requests or expects you to use neologistic pronouns?
Yes.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:07 AM   #379
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Okay, I still haven't.

How common do you think this is?

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Old 24th July 2020, 11:09 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, I still haven't.

How common do you think this is?
Not.

But that doesn't stop activists from treating it as a pressing matter.

As far as "they" go, as TM said it's very simple. It's just not obvious who's a they unless they ask you, which usually doesn't come up since when you're talking about someone in the third person they're not there.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:24 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But that doesn't stop activists from treating it as a pressing matter.
Just for the sake of clarity, we should have some idea of which particular activists we're talking about or arguing against here. The one I quoted at the top of the thread was pretty clearly in the they/them camp, AFAICT.

Last December, I attended at reasonably large atheist solstice gathering which is something of a longstanding tradition around here. For the first time in my memory, people were encouraged to put pronouns on their name tags, presumably in an attempt to make the place more welcoming to those whose pronouns were not clearly conveyed by mode of dress and/or secondary sex characteristics. This was a kindhearted gesture, but as it happened there wasn't anyone in attendance whose pronouns weren't already obvious. Sort of a bummer, really.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:25 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
A more grounded example I'd used before is height. Several thousand years ago when I was doing the online dating thing it was not uncommon to see women including minimum heights in their wish list. Must be 6' 4" or taller, that sort of thing. Now let's say I got to chatting with one of those and we agree to meet for dinner. In walks my 5' 9" self, and she's clearly upset. "But wait," I say, "while my biological height might be 5'9", my internal stature is that of a 6'8" guy. Please don't confuse height with stature, it's demeaning.". That would be patently absurd, but the gender thing gets a pass.
Huh. My internal image of myself really is taller than I am. I consistently perceive myself to be about 4 inches taller than the measuring tape says I am. I'm frequently surprised that I cant' reach things, because my brain is quite convinced that I am tall enough to reach that shelf. I must not have realized that it's just my stature being different than my height...

Honestly though, I long ago came to terms with the fact that my brain is wrong about how it perceives my height. My brain has a history of being wrong about several things. I have taken to being skeptical about the things my brain insists are true. It's not a reliable witness.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:25 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This was a kindhearted gesture, but as it happened there wasn't anyone in attendance whose pronouns weren't already obvious.
Which kind of demonstrates that almost all the energy devoted to this topic is wasted.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:27 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which kind of demonstrates that almost all the energy devoted to this topic is wasted.
I guess? Basically I just need to know what the new social and conversational norms are going to be now that we've transcended two genders based on sex.

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Old 24th July 2020, 11:28 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I guess? Basically I need to know what the new social and conversational norms are going to be now that we've transcended two genders based on sex.
I think It's doubtful this transcendance has occured.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:29 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Have you ever met someone—even on the internet—who asks or expects you to use neologistic pronouns?
Yes. I've met a xe and a zie.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:33 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I've met a xe and a zie.
Out of curiosity, how do they react to noncompliance?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:34 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Out of curiosity, how do they react to noncompliance?
Cannibalism.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:48 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Please click the tweet from the OP which (at least partially) explains—in gigantic stylized letters—what is being asked of us binaries.
One person on Twitter thinks they/them/their is all that's being asked. Other persons in other channels have different opinions with varying degrees of debatability. I'm sympathetic to your position, but it's absurd to hold up a single tweet as the de facto standard of what's being "asked of us binaries".
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:49 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Out of curiosity, how do they react to noncompliance?
Hard to say really. They were both complete jerks irrespective of any identities. Both of them adopted new pronouns after having shown themselves to be pains all around, so I really didn't do much interacting with either of them.

On the other hand, I've also interacted with a couple of people who actually were transwomen, both of whom were very generous about the occasional slip up. My niece (who only came out as trans a year ago) is somewhat forgiving with family... but is really annoyingly militant about correcting people in public (wait staff etc.), despite the fact that she still looks unquestionably masculine and doesn't really do anything to try to look more feminine besides starting to grow some boobs. I love her, but it's a bit embarrassing when this 6'1" person with a three-day beard cops an attitude because a waiter says "sir" when asking for her order. I haven't figured out what she expects to have happen... she looks like a man.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:52 AM   #391
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I think part of the problem is that "they" can be unwieldy at times when being used to refer to an individual, and there's no consensus on (or good ideas for) a different gender-neutral pronoun.

A few years ago, Sweden added to "han" (he) and "hom" (she) the gender-neutral "hen". That appears to have taken root (I don't have it to hand, but there was a survey published a little while back which said that most adults now used the word, which is remarkable for a linguistic innovation that's less than a decade old).

But it's easy to see why it would. "Hen" fits nicely with "han" and "hon", as it's just another vowel inside the same two consonants. "They" stands separate from "she" and "he", as do "ze", "xe", etc. because structurally "she" is "he" with an extra letter.*

To make it consistent, really the only thing to do is to add or subtract another letter. "E" has been suggested, and it's not difficult to say or to use in a sentence, but there are plenty of accents that swallow the letter "h" (cockney being famous for it, for example). So that makes it less than ideal.

Adding a letter has two problems - the first being that it usually adds a syllable, which again sets it apart. The second is that adding it to the end changes the character of the word too much to make it really seem like it fits (compare and contrast "she" with "shen"), and adding one to the beginning simply doesn't work (seriously, try to find a letter to add to the beginning that a. is pronounceable and b. doesn't sound silly).

I honestly think that this is a huge factor in which gender-neutral pronouns aren't more widely accepted and used in the English language. Even beyond describing non-binary people it would have uses. But none of them have really taken off outside of certain communities, and I think that a big part of the reason why is that the English language itself makes it difficult to coin one that is easy to say and which feels like a true equivalent to "she" and "he".

I think that "e" is probably the best suggestion. It's easy to say, and you can see the progression "she" > "he" > "e" easily - even if it would be more satisfying if the term for enbies were between those for men/boys and women/girls. It's imperfect, but if there were a sustained push for it in the media the same way there was for "hen" in Sweden, I think it would have some chance of success.

I can understand why "they" was eventually settled on - out of all of the suggestions, it's the one that already existed in the English language. But it's still awkward to say. I try to be careful about the language I use, and have been using "they" for years at this point, but I still find myself often having to put a little extra thought into sentences where I'm using it - especially if I'm using it in the same context that I'm talking about a second party whose gender isn't known.

So I think that "e" has the greatest chance of success if it were to be pushed, although linguistically it's far from idea and I don't think it will be pushed, and I think that "they" will basically become the norm eventually as the younger generations grow up and come to dominate the culture, but not really become truly commonplace beforehand.

*I think that most of the "ze", etc. ones also have the problem of sounding like they're trying too hard to be cool. I changed my name by deed poll some years back and, in choosing a new name one of the things I was very careful about was choosing something that didn't sound like I was trying too hard. If you call yourself something like "Zabrinska Goodfairy" then people are going to go "um, no!". I think that's part of the issue with the "xyr"s of this world.

That's not to say that they can't be used - Greg Egan is a writer who mostly deals in posthumanism, and he uses "ze" all the time. It doesn't seem contrived or odd, but that's a different context to the average bloke down the pub talking with his mates.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:06 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm sympathetic to your position, but it's absurd to hold up a single tweet as the de facto standard of what's being "asked of us binaries".
It seemingly was what was being asked of us by the individual quoted in the OP, and so it's a moral claim worth addressing if you're into topicality.

As to whether there is an emergent de facto standard, well, it's probably "they" as well:



Source
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:01 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Please click the tweet from the OP which (at least partially) explains—in gigantic stylized letters—what is being asked of us binaries.
The "binaries" being trans men, trans women, cis men, cis women.

I am non binary and I am not asking anything of those groups, not even pronouns.

I would suggest that really it is a small percentage of non-binaries who are asking anything of binaries.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:06 PM   #394
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The "binaries" being trans men, trans women, cis men, cis women.
Yup.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am non binary and I am not asking anything of those groups, not even pronouns.
Just out of curiosity, why not? Is it just easier to let people assume which pronouns are best, or are you truly indifferent about it?

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Old 24th July 2020, 04:17 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yup.

Just out of curiosity, why not? Is it just easier to let people assume which pronouns are best, or are you truly indifferent about it?

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Yes, indifferent.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:50 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am non binary...
Please feel free to tell me to go soak my head... but I really don't understand non-binary. Is it meaningfully different from... say... "I think your gender norms are dumb and I'm not gong to play your games, I'll just be myself thank you very much"?
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:53 PM   #397
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Don't most non-binary people physically appear to be more strongly masculine or feminine anyway?

I think it's fair to look at what kind of puberty the person went through in early adolescence as an indicator of what they're "closest to" as it were.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:36 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Please feel free to tell me to go soak my head... but I really don't understand non-binary. Is it meaningfully different from... say... "I think your gender norms are dumb and I'm not gong to play your games, I'll just be myself thank you very much"?
It doesn't imply that I think the gender norms are dumb, just that they don't apply to me.

And let's get it clear, society judged me non-binary long before I began to be comfortable with that, long before people even used the expression "non-binary" about gender. The dynamic was there in society long before we put a name to it.

People these days seem to want to pretend that the social dimension of gender is a new thing or that it was never a significant social dynamic until now.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:53 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post

And let's get it clear, society judged me non-binary long before I began to be comfortable with that, long before people even used the expression "non-binary" about gender.
Sorry if this is personal and don't bother answering if it is annoying, but this caught my eye.

In what way?

Behaviour towards you etc?

Edit: And at what stage age wise.
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Old 25th July 2020, 01:53 PM   #400
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As always I feel the need to ask how we have "identity" that is so language dependent.

Does this special class of people just not exist in languages that don't have gender pronouns?
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