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Old 1st July 2020, 09:47 PM   #41
Robin
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I seem to recall circling this roundabout with you previously, Robin.

It's no more an expressible feeling now than it was then. You can't tell me what it feels like to smell roses, and I can't tell you what it feels like to be male.
But at least I would know that what it is like to smell roses pertained to the feeling you get when you are near some roses giving off odor. If you said that you felt like you were smelling roses every time you were near oranges and that you felt like you were smelling oranges every time you were near roses then I should probably think that you were simply labelling these experiences wrongly.
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All that can be said, is if you're sure you're sure, and if you're not, then nonbinary could be the gender identity that sits best with you.
But, as I said before, if someone asks me if I am Category A or Category B and gives me no more information about what those categories might refer to then i would definitely be unsure about which category I fit into.

That fact would not say anything at all about the likelihood that I am in some spectrum between the two. I might be neither category A nor category B nor in any spectrum between the two.

How would I know?

Quote:
Try it on for size and if you don't like it, ...
But I don't even have the beginnings of a clue about what it is that I should be trying on for size.
Quote:
...go back to identifying in agreement with your genitals.
I can't seem to make you understand what is the problem with that.

If a trans man were to ask me if I accept him as a man then of course I should say "yes".

If a trans man were to ask me if I consider him a man in exactly the same sense that I consider myself a man then if I were to take your above suggestion then I would have to say "no".

The point is that I would not want to be in that situation. I would want to understand and accept the trans man, but there is simply no way for me to do that.
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:17 PM   #42
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If we run the bisexual analogy again, there is plenty of what might be termed bisexual "erasure". Bisexuals were long considered to be curious heterosexuals or gays in denials.

In 2005 the New York Times had an article in which a scientist declared that from decades of research there was not even a hint that male bisexuals exist.

In 2014 they were prepared to venture "The Scientific Quest to Prove Bisexuality Exists" in which they admitted the possibility that suggested that more research was necessary to be sure.

Now as far as I know there was no outrage or canceling of the NY Times for this. For most bisexuals this is a matter of amusement and is likely to give us less respect for science.

For most of us, bisexuality is a not very interesting fact about us and no plausible possibility of doubt about the fact that we are, in fact, bisexual, so someone that doubts it is simply someone who is not very smart.

Now if I felt I was a woman and was in no doubt about the fact then I can't see that it would matter to me if people said I was a man, not a woman and used "he" instead of "she".
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But at least I would know that what it is like to smell roses pertained to the feeling you get when you are near some roses giving off odor. If you said that you felt like you were smelling roses every time you were near oranges and that you felt like you were smelling oranges every time you were near roses then I should probably think that you were simply labelling these experiences wrongly.

But, as I said before, if someone asks me if I am Category A or Category B and gives me no more information about what those categories might refer to then i would definitely be unsure about which category I fit into.
In the special case of these particular categories under discussion, I would definitely be very sure. I am male. I identify as male, I present as male, and I have male genitalia. All of those are statements I can make categorically. If you can't, then maybe you might not be male. If you also can't categorically make the statement that you are female, then you may wish to identify as nonbinary. That's kind of what binary means - you're categorically one or the other.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
That fact would not say anything at all about the likelihood that I am in some spectrum between the two. I might be neither category A nor category B nor in any spectrum between the two.

How would I know?
If you don't, then I'd suggest that you're definitely in the spectrum, and not at one end like I am. But you don't find that helpful. It's likely that you never will.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But I don't even have the beginnings of a clue about what it is that I should be trying on for size.

I can't seem to make you understand what is the problem with that.
What I think you should be trying on for size is identifying as non-binary. When you fill out a form, and it has a section to tick either male or female, tick neither. Or tick "prefer not to say". Stop using gendered pronouns, and ask people not to use them when referring to you (they/them is the usual choice of nongendered pronouns but you are of course free to use whatever you like). Try looking for androgynous clothes. Ask your hairdresser to cut your hair in a nongenderspecific way. There are many ways to present as nonbinary.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If a trans man were to ask me if I accept him as a man then of course I should say "yes".

If a trans man were to ask me if I consider him a man in exactly the same sense that I consider myself a man then if I were to take your above suggestion then I would have to say "no".
Yes. You would say that. But here's something to consider: why would a trans man ask you such a weird question?

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The point is that I would not want to be in that situation. I would want to understand and accept the trans man, but there is simply no way for me to do that.
You don't have to feel the same way in order to understand and accept. I understand and accept that you do not strongly feel that the gender male applies to you. I can't feel that way myself, but I do not need to in order to understand and accept that you have a different gender identity to mine.

And here's something that's important to repeat: it's okay to not be sure. There are many different ways that people present as nonbinary. Maybe none of them are for you. Only you can decide how you identify.
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Old 1st July 2020, 10:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Now if I felt I was a woman and was in no doubt about the fact then I can't see that it would matter to me if people said I was a man, not a woman and used "he" instead of "she".
Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:16 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you also can't categorically make the statement that you are female, then you may wish to identify as nonbinary. That's kind of what binary means - you're categorically one or the other.
But it appears to imply that you are somewhere in between. You don't have to be in between two categories. The categories and anything in between might be something that has no relevance to me.

Quote:
If you don't, then I'd suggest that you're definitely in the spectrum, and not at one end like I am. But you don't find that helpful. It's likely that you never will.
Again that doesn't make sense. If I say there is Category A and Category B and they have nothing to do with gender, and I ask you whether you are Category A or Category B then you wouldn't be able to answer, because I haven't told you what they are, right?

So if I say that the fact that you don't have any idea what these categories I am talking about are, then you are definitely in that spectrum, then that would make no sense.

You might not be on that spectrum at all.

That is my situation. If it was likely I would be on that spectrum then it seems likely that I would have at least a tiny inkling of what this mysterious inexpressible spectrum of yours is, or what these mysterious inexpressible categories are.

But I don't, so it is far more likely that these categories or the spectrum in between them are something that doesn't apply to me in any way shape or form.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.
Who is talking about denying or erasing anything?

If I don't understand why something is important to someone I can still acknowledge that it is important.

Some different coloured pieces of cloth are very important to some people for reasons that i don't understand, but I still would not burn them or soil them.

If a trans man wants to be called a man then of course I will do it, have been doing so for decades.

But, again, you miss the point. I am not really accepting him as a man if I have absolutely no idea what he means by "man". Am I?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:38 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes. You would say that. But here's something to consider: why would a trans man ask you such a weird question?
Why is it weird?

You are asking me to adopt what is generally regarded as a transphobic definition of "man" when I apply it to myself and use another definition which I have literally no way of understanding for others.

But you don't think it matters because you think it would be weird for people to ask if I apply the transphobic definition for myself.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:01 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't have to feel the same way in order to understand and accept.
But you have to understand to understand.
Quote:
I understand and accept that you do not strongly feel that the gender male applies to you.
You are putting words into my mouth. What I said is that I don't have an inkling of what you mean by gender, or any idea about how to start finding out what you mean by it.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:04 AM   #49
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There was a party where people were playing a game called "Mornington Crescent" and I was not familiar with the game or the radio show where it originated.

I tried very hard to find out what the rules were.

That is how I feel in these kinds of threads.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:13 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
There was a party where people were playing a game called "Mornington Crescent" and I was not familiar with the game or the radio show where it originated.



I tried very hard to find out what the rules were.



That is how I feel in these kinds of threads.
I often wonder if that's the point to some of the posts I read here
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:34 AM   #51
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Can anyone give a working definition of what 'gender non-binary' actually means, in practice?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 04:27 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sounds reasonable. How are you defining it here?
I'm really not sure. It's not necessarily easy when you get conflicting definitions from different people, and using my own homemade definition, whatever that would turn out to be, wouldn't be very useful.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 04:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It indicates that gender identification based on sexual behavior is probably not very useful.
I'm not aware of anyone who defines gender as being based on sexual orientation.

I really have no idea what your argument is.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 04:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
All that can be said, is if you're sure you're sure, and if you're not, then nonbinary could be the gender identity that sits best with you.
Or maybe you're just not sure and it doesn't change anything about your gender.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 04:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Misgendering is something that some trans people don't feel strongly about, but others feel very strongly about. And if you (for example) don't feel strongly about it, that should not deny or erase the strong feelings that others have about it.
Not agreeing with someone is not erasing their feelings. Otherwise I'd be erasing theists' feelings all the time.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 04:54 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But I haven't even seen an explanation that explains.

When I say "I am a man" I mean only that I am biologically male.

I don't know of any other definition. If I were to wonder if I was really a man I would only be wondering if I was really biologically male.

I am and have always been open to other definitions of "man" but I have never ever seen one beyond "someone who feels that they are a man"

But how does that feel? No one has ever been able to tell me.
You're asking a qualia question, which can't be objectively answered. Like most identity things, it's how you choose to think of yourself, not how anything actually is, or literally feels like.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 05:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Can anyone give a working definition of what 'gender non-binary' actually means, in practice?
I think arthwollipot sort of did, actually, at least wrt presentation to the outside world.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What I think you should be trying on for size is identifying as non-binary. When you fill out a form, and it has a section to tick either male or female, tick neither. Or tick "prefer not to say". Stop using gendered pronouns, and ask people not to use them when referring to you (they/them is the usual choice of nongendered pronouns but you are of course free to use whatever you like). Try looking for androgynous clothes. Ask your hairdresser to cut your hair in a nongenderspecific way. There are many ways to present as nonbinary.
I think it may also mean you get to use any toilets or changing rooms you feel like using, since those are segregated by gender these days. That actually sounds liberating, especially at skeptic conferences where only the men's has a queue.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not aware of anyone who defines gender as being based on sexual orientation.

I really have no idea what your argument is.

In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:58 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.


Just out of curiosity, how do you define "gender"?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 09:05 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In my experience, who you are attracted to during adolescence very much affects how certain you are of your gender.
How on earth does that work? I'm a masculine guy attracted to masculine guys, and was so in adolescence. Does that mean I'm female gender? Or that the guys I find hot are female gender?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 09:34 AM   #61
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****, Zaganza. Now you've gotten TM and me to agree on something!
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Old 2nd July 2020, 09:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
****, Zaganza. Now you've gotten TM and me to agree on something!
Mission accomplished.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 10:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How on earth does that work? I'm a masculine guy attracted to masculine guys, and was so in adolescence. Does that mean I'm female gender? Or that the guys I find hot are female gender?
As I wrote a further up, I'm mostly confabulating here. Please don't take anything i write too seriously.


Growing up, the only portrayal of homosexual partners I encountered was the stereotypical "Bitch-Butch" dynamic, in media and in my circle of friendship.

I think that is because people just didn't have the imagination yet to completely separate gender-roles from gender-identity, or had to live in a world that couldn't make sense of a non-binary identity.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 10:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Mission accomplished.
Actually your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to clarify how you define "gender" so that I can evaluate whether or not our preceding exchange makes sense to me.

As always should you or any member of your IMF team be caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 10:37 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Actually your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to clarify how you define "gender" so that I can evaluate whether or not our preceding exchange makes sense to me.

As always should you or any member of your IMF team be caught or killed, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.

I refuse.

My point is that we have moved passed the point where gender should be a relevant description: the Pill removed "babymaking" as the female gender identifier.
the fact that we can merge to oocyctes to create a viable zygote removed the need for sperm.

People are attracted to people.
I'm not sure it is very productive to try get more than that out of the gender discussion.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
My point is that we have moved passed the point where gender should be a relevant description: the Pill removed "babymaking" as the female gender identifier.
Which it never was. "Barren" women were always a thing, and no one ever said that they weren't women.

Quote:
the fact that we can merge to oocyctes to create a viable zygote removed the need for sperm.

People are attracted to people.
I'm not sure it is very productive to try get more than that out of the gender discussion.
In a single post you have confused gender with biological sex, sexual orientation and fertility, and a few posts up you confused it with gender identity and gender roles.

I think the problem is that you have no idea what we're talking about.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:09 AM   #67
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Maybe.

But I would argue neither has anyone else.


As for your example: barren women were indeed not considered to be women for purposes of marriage, i.e. a marriage could be annulled as if it never happened if a wife couldn't have children.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:18 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Actually your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to clarify how you define "gender"...
I know you're not talking to me here, but why can't we just use the genderWP in the usual sense of the term given in the wiki?

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity. Most cultures use a gender binary, having two genders (boys/men and girls/women); those who exist outside these groups fall under the umbrella term non-binary or genderqueer.
Most of this seems straightforward enough, though some of these terms may be viciously recursive.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:57 AM   #69
theprestige
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I refuse.

My point is that we have moved passed the point where gender should be a relevant description: the Pill removed "babymaking" as the female gender identifier.
the fact that we can merge to oocyctes to create a viable zygote removed the need for sperm.

People are attracted to people.
I'm not sure it is very productive to try get more than that out of the gender discussion.
This is adorable!

---

"Why won't you go out with me?"

"I'm gay."

"So?"

"So I'm attracted to dudes. Sorry."

"But we have moved passed the point where gender should be a relevant description! People are attracted to people!"

"That doesn't seem very productive. Or realistic."

"No, you're not very productive!"
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Old 2nd July 2020, 12:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which it never was. "Barren" women were always a thing, and no one ever said that they weren't women.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure many cultures and communities throughout history have treated barren women as less-than-women.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 12:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think arthwollipot sort of did, actually, at least wrt presentation to the outside world.
Well, you can think of yourself however you wish, and sympathetic people may well go along with your expressed wishes (and potentially bizarre choice of invented pronouns), but forcing everyone in the world to comply is perhaps a little optimistic.

It feels a bit like a teen rebellion thing, where you refuse to be pigeon-holed by society, with an element of reacting against straw man positions. ďIím not female because I donít like pink and dressing up like a princess, so I demand to be called something elseĒ, when in fact you can do pretty much what you like, at least in most Western democracies. The only real issues are with things that are related to physical biology.


Quote:
I think it may also mean you get to use any toilets or changing rooms you feel like using, since those are segregated by gender these days. That actually sounds liberating, especially at skeptic conferences where only the men's has a queue.
Iíve been to SF Cons that were very inclusive, and they had non-segregated toilet facilities.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 12:42 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, you can think of yourself however you wish, and sympathetic people may well go along with your expressed wishes (and potentially bizarre choice of invented pronouns), but forcing everyone in the world to comply is perhaps a little optimistic.
Perhaps so, but don't tell that to Gregor Murray.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:19 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Perhaps so, but don't tell that to Gregor Murray.
I was confused for a minute or two, since that's the name of one of the local councillors for the ward where I live.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 02:59 PM   #74
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I was confused for a minute or two, since that's the name of one of the local councillors for the ward where I live.
Isn't that the same person from the Forstater case, though?

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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:05 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I know you're not talking to me here, but why can't we just use the genderWP in the usual sense of the term given in the wiki?



Most of this seems straightforward enough, though some of these terms may be viciously recursive.
Straightforward but vague. It can be this, or this, or that. It's essentially anything you want, but it's still difficult too pinpoint.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But I would argue neither has anyone
else.

Only if you think everyone else is confusing these terms. Not all of us are.

Quote:
As for your example: barren women were indeed not considered to be women for purposes of marriage, i.e. a marriage could be annulled as if it never happened if a wife couldn't have children.
Are you saying that a barren wife being a legal reason for marriage annulment somehow means that the wife is not a woman? Where the hell do you get from one to the other?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:07 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be fair, I'm pretty sure many cultures and communities throughout history have treated barren women as less-than-women.
Undesirable or un-feminine, certaintly, but I've not seen them ever called anything else than "woman".

Do you have specific examples to support Zaganza's point?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:09 PM   #77
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Straightforward but vague. It can be this, or this, or that. It's essentially anything you want, but it's still difficult too pinpoint.
I'm gonna defer to Emily's Cat on the key definitions for now.

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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:14 PM   #78
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No, it canít be unpacked in a sensible way any more than flat earth nonsense can be. Iím shocked at how smart people can be so silly when it comes to this cultish nonsense.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:22 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm gonna defer to Emily's Cat on the key definitions for now.
In fact, let's make Cat our official dictionary.

Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
No, it canít be unpacked in a sensible way any more than flat earth nonsense can be. Iím shocked at how smart people can be so silly when it comes to this cultish nonsense.
Sorry, what are you talking about here? The definition of gender?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:28 PM   #80
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A lot to reply to here, so bear with me. I'm going to selectively quote here for brevity - if you have made a statement that I have not quoted, that means I have no disagreement with that statement.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But it appears to imply that you are somewhere in between. You don't have to be in between two categories. The categories and anything in between might be something that has no relevance to me.
Fair enough. I have been interpreting what you say as referring to a spectrum, with male at one end and female at the other, and everything else, including nonbinariness, in between. Now I see that this is not what you have been saying, I will stop referring to gender as a spectrum.

Some people are male, some people are female, and some people are neither. Some people are both. Some people are male sometimes, and some people are female sometimes. There are many different ways to identify, including not identifying at all. It's like when someone asks what religion you are, and you say you're not a religion at all. You aren't somewhere between Catholic and Protestant, you're neither of them.

Is this a better way of thinking about it?

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Who is talking about denying or erasing anything?

If I don't understand why something is important to someone I can still acknowledge that it is important.

Some different coloured pieces of cloth are very important to some people for reasons that i don't understand, but I still would not burn them or soil them.
Lots of people deliberately misgender people because they do not accept those peoples' gender identity. That can be incredibly hurtful, depending on who they are referring to. Misgendering has been described as a form of violence. I have not said that anyone participating in this discussion has done that, and I apologise for being unclear to anyone who has interpreted what I said in that way.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But, again, you miss the point. I am not really accepting him as a man if I have absolutely no idea what he means by "man". Am I?
Why not?

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Why is it weird?
Because the question as stated is not a reasonable question that any real person would ask. If a trans man ask you to accept that they are a man, that's one thing. But I don't understand how there could be any circumstances where a trans man might ask that question in the convoluted way that you suggested.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are asking me to adopt what is generally regarded as a transphobic definition of "man" when I apply it to myself and use another definition which I have literally no way of understanding for others.

But you don't think it matters because you think it would be weird for people to ask if I apply the transphobic definition for myself.
No, I am asking you to accept that a trans man is a man when they ask you to, which you have already stated that you will. So I'm not clear why you are trying to go any deeper than that.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
But you have to understand to understand.
Yes, but why do you have to understand? No-one is asking you to understand, only to accept, which you already do.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are putting words into my mouth. What I said is that I don't have an inkling of what you mean by gender, or any idea about how to start finding out what you mean by it.
And you don't need to. I say I am a man. I don't care what you understand that to mean, or whether you understand it at all. Just refer to me as a man and use the pronouns he/him and we'll be good.

Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Can anyone give a working definition of what 'gender non-binary' actually means, in practice?
Neither male nor female. This might help.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not agreeing with someone is not erasing their feelings. Otherwise I'd be erasing theists' feelings all the time.
There can be circumstances where it's not and you aren't, but there can also be circumstances where it is and you are.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think it may also mean you get to use any toilets or changing rooms you feel like using, since those are segregated by gender these days. That actually sounds liberating, especially at skeptic conferences where only the men's has a queue.
Well, there are people who are working towards introducing desegregated toilets and changing rooms, but there is considerable resistance from gender traditionalists.
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