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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:30 PM   #81
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Isn't that the same person from the Forstater case, though?

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Er, no, thatís in a different country.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Er, no, thatís in a different country.
Okay, so I don't know what country you're talking about but here's the individual in question:

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/f...ay-speaks-out/

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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:46 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There can be circumstances where it's not and you aren't, but there can also be circumstances where it is and you are.
No there isn't. That's nonsense. Give me an example.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 05:12 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No there isn't. That's nonsense. Give me an example.
I linked earlier to an article arguing why misgendering can be considered violence. And this isn't a thread about theism.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 10:57 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're asking a qualia question, which can't be objectively answered. Like most identity things, it's how you choose to think of yourself, not how anything actually is, or literally feels like.
The category is defined entirely in terms of qualia.

Give me another similar identity question.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, I am asking you to accept that a trans man is a man when they ask you to, which you have already stated that you will. So I'm not clear why you are trying to go any deeper than that.
Earlier you suggested that I go back to defining myself as a man entirely on the basis of being biologically male. Are you denying you said that? Or did I misunderstand you?

I said: 'When I say "I am a man" I mean only that I am biologically male.'

In your replay you said: 'Try it on for size and if you don't like it, go back to identifying in agreement with your genitals.'

So you meant go back to the definition I used earlier, ie that I mean only that I am biologically male, yes?

If I did that then I would be defining myself in terms of what is usually described as a transphobic definition of a man.

So we need to confirm - did you suggest that or not?

And you are asking me to accept a trans man using a definition of "man" that I have not even an inkling of what it means, yes?
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Old 2nd July 2020, 11:19 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you saying that a barren wife being a legal reason for marriage annulment somehow means that the wife is not a woman? Where the hell do you get from one to the other?
I'm saying there was a time when women who couldn't have children were considered to not be women at all, since childbearing was indeed considered the definitional function of a woman.
Case in point: during childbirth, the default was to prioritize the life of the child over that of the mother.


The resistance against same-sex marriage is an offshoot of this, since traditionally, the role of the family is to have children, which means that any marriage without children is not a "right" marriage.

We have managed overcome most of this, but even the most woke take on binary/non-binary today will probably not be the way we see gender in 20 years or so.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 12:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so I don't know what country you're talking about but here's the individual in question:

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/f...ay-speaks-out/

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Yes, I know, thatís why I said I was confused for a minute, until I realised there were two politicians with the same name (one in England, one in Scotland). They both have beards, too.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 02:02 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I linked earlier to an article arguing why misgendering can be considered violence.
Differences of opinion are not violence. Let's stop massacring words, ok?

I'm asking YOU for specific examples. If you can't find one, that's fine, but just admit that you have no idea how that would work in real life, and retract your argument.

Quote:
And this isn't a thread about theism.
So I can't even use theism as a parallel or an example? Since when are you the topic police?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 02:05 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm saying there was a time when women who couldn't have children were considered to not be women at all, since childbearing was indeed considered the definitional function of a woman.
Prove it. Provide citations that demonstrate that such women were not considered women.

Quote:
Case in point: during childbirth, the default was to prioritize the life of the child over that of the mother.
That's not a "case in point". This is yet another non sequitur. Prioritising the child has NOTHING to do with whether you consider the mother a woman.

You keep making arguments and presenting examples that have little or nothing to do with your claim. You don't seem to be understanding your own claims.

Quote:
The resistance against same-sex marriage is an offshoot of this, since traditionally, the role of the family is to have children, which means that any marriage without children is not a "right" marriage.
See? You're still confusing gender roles with genders!
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:49 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes, I know, thatís why I said I was confused for a minute, until I realised there were two politicians with the same name (one in England, one in Scotland). They both have beards, too.
Well now, that is confusing; thanks for the clarification.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:16 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I am asking you to accept that a trans man is a man when they ask you to
To me, this is like asking that I accept that God is real when asked. I can't just toggle my beliefs on and off like that.

I can use their desired pronouns when asked. I can acknowledge and respect their declared gender role (as best I understand it), just like I can respect the practice of Christianity without believing in its tenets. Right? If I find myself in the company of Catholics during a religious ceremony or observance, I can clasp my hands and bow my head alongside them. I can even recite the words and sing the songs along with them, out of respect for their beliefs and a desire to not cause unnecessary trouble. But if they asked me to believe what they believe? There I have to draw the line.

I guess it would help if we even knew what "a trans man is man" actually means. What am I supposed to accept? They're allowed to wear pants instead of dresses? Okay, sure, but that's not really a gendered thing for me anyway.

Gendered pronouns? Makes sense, sure. Special pronouns? I think they're stupid, but whatever, I can show respect. Believing that special pronouns aren't stupid? Sorry, no can do. Best I can offer is that if you don't ask, I won't mention it. And if you do ask, I'll politely find some way to avoid telling you how I really feel.

What about sexual attraction? If I'm a lesbian and you're a pre-op trans man who looks like exactly my type of attractive woman, am I supposed to not be attracted to you, out of respect for your manhood? (If you're a pre-op trans woman, are straight dudes not supposed to be turned off by your penis?)

What about the trans man who checked into the hospital as a man, and then had a negative health outcome because the medical staff followed the gender indicated on the chart and didn't realize they were actually treating a problem of female biology?

(What about trans women competing in women's sports? Does accepting that a trans woman is a woman extend that far?)

When you ask me to accept that a trans man is a man, what exactly are you asking me to accept?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:19 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In fact, let's make Cat our official dictionary.



Sorry, what are you talking about here? The definition of gender?
How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary is what I mean.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:38 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary is what I mean.
I don't think there is anything incoherent about deliberately presenting oneself as androgyneWP, though it seems fairly difficult to pull off successfully.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:45 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Undesirable or un-feminine, certaintly, but I've not seen them ever called anything else than "woman".

Do you have specific examples to support Zaganza's point?
I understand Zaganza's point to be about how barren women are treated in their society, in terms of the respect and privilege their society accords to women; not about what they're actually called.

And I do have examples of of that:
In addition, many societies only tend to value a woman if she is able to produce at least one child, and a marriage can be considered a failure when the couple cannot conceive.[58]

[...]

Wealth is sometimes measured by the number of children a woman has, as well as inheritance of property.[59][62] Children can influence financial security in many ways. In Nigeria and Cameroon, land claims are decided by the number of children. Also, in some Sub-Saharan countries women may be denied inheritance if she did not bear any children [62] In some African and Asian countries a husband can deprive his infertile wife of food, shelter and other basic necessities like clothing.[62] In Cameroon, a woman may lose access to land from her husband and left on her own in old age.[59]

In many cases, a woman who cannot bear children is excluded from social and cultural events including traditional ceremonies. This stigmatization is seen in Mozambique and Nigeria where infertile women have been treated as outcasts to society.[59] This is a humiliating practice which devalues infertile women in society.[63][64]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...#Social_stigma
Would you agree that if the citations bear out these claims, these are specific examples that support Zaganza's point?

The way I'd put it, they're not treated as "real" women because they can't conceive.

Similar to how American slave owners didn't call their male slaves anything other than men, but also didn't recognize them as having the same rights and privileges as "real" men in society.

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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:52 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think there is anything incoherent about deliberately presenting oneself as androgyneWP, though it seems fairly difficult to pull off successfully.
Is that the same as non-binary?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:57 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Neither male nor female. This might help.
Heh: "Non-binary (also spelled nonbinary), or genderqueer, is a spectrum of gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine*."

So, definitely not "neither male nor female". But rather, "varying degrees of gender role expression".

What does "exclusively masculine or feminine" even mean in modern western culture?

Is a woman who wears pants nonbinary? Is a man who wears makeup genderqueer? Is there any modern social role in the western world that is exclusively masculine or feminine? I can think of a few that are exclusively male or female, but those are down to strict biological necessity. Sperm donor, for example. Surrogate mother. Wet nurse? Or has science now given us men who can lactate healthful milk? I dunno.

At first glance, your answers seem simple and straightforward, but your terminology actually leaves us with a lot of baggage to unpack. Complicated, confusing, and in some cases apparently intractable baggage.

Anyway, in modern western society, there aren't many (if any) gender identifiers that are exclusively masculine or feminine. We're all genderqueer now. Which is good news for tomboys, but bad news for gender dysphorics. We may be approaching a point of historic irony, where the only people who are exclusively masculine or feminine in their gender identity are the fully transitioned transsexuals.

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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:19 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I linked earlier to an article arguing why misgendering can be considered violence. And this isn't a thread about theism.
If everything is violence, nothing is violence. And this is a thread about belief and acceptance of belief. How we treat the beliefs of theists can give us insights and tools for how we treat the beliefs of transgenders.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:28 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Is that the same as non-binary?
Not exactly, no. I was thinking about the gender expression part specifically, which is the part I can see happening even if I don't grok the states of mind involved.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 02:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary is what I mean.
Well don't ask me. I've been trying to understand that one for a few years now.

But then, if you buy into the idea that gender is whatever you feel like at any moment, the concept of non-binary flows directly from that.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 02:15 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Would you agree that if the citations bear out these claims, these are specific examples that support Zaganza's point?
I would not, unless we're grasping at straws and reinterpreting things to suit our argument. Zaganza's point wasn't that women who are barren have historically been treated like crap, but that they weren't treated as the gender "woman". None of what you've provided bears that out.
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Old 4th July 2020, 01:33 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I would not, unless we're grasping at straws and reinterpreting things to suit our argument. Zaganza's point wasn't that women who are barren have historically been treated like crap, but that they weren't treated as the gender "woman". None of what you've provided bears that out.
It sounds to me that you are straw-manning me.
That might be the result of poor articulation of on my part, which in turn lead you to misunderstand it.

All I was trying to convey was that, as a gender-identify marker, being able to produce children is as arbitrary anything else anyone, including you, can come up with.
But it was something that was used in the past to legitimate treating a barren woman as not a "proper woman". i.e. not real female at all. The Bible especially is full of examples of women defining themselves exclusively by the children they have or failed to produce.

I think The Prestige put it rather well that we are all on a spectrum, and there is nothing we can use to unambiguous define male or female.

And I wonder what would be the benefit even if we could.
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Old 4th July 2020, 02:26 AM   #103
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This is the weirdest thread.
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Old 4th July 2020, 02:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It sounds to me that you are straw-manning me.
Well it wasn't my intention. Let's try again.

Quote:
All I was trying to convey was that, as a gender-identify marker, being able to produce children is as arbitrary anything else anyone, including you, can come up with.
Maybe it's arbitrary, but it's not a marker of gender identity or even gender, I'm told, only biological sex. This continues the trend I see in your posts of confusing all these terms together. It makes it very hard to have a discussion because I'm not sure you're clear on what you want to say.

Quote:
But it was something that was used in the past to legitimate treating a barren woman as not a "proper woman". i.e. not real female at all. The Bible especially is full of examples of women defining themselves exclusively by the children they have or failed to produce.
Can you give me real examples, please? Quotations, I mean.

Quote:
I think The Prestige put it rather well that we are all on a spectrum, and there is nothing we can use to unambiguous define male or female.
Come on, man. We've made that distinction for thousands of years; more even, without issue. In almost every case you can imagine, we can identity males and females, men and women, boys and girls, quite readily, and in the overwhelming majority of cases the gender identity of the person will match. We use a number of indicators, and with modern science we can correlate them with genetics and other physical evidence.

To claim that none of that holds now because of a tiny number of exceptions is ludicrous.

Quote:
And I wonder what would be the benefit even if we could.
Well, humans in general seem to think that it's beneficial. I, for example, am attracted to women, not men. Being able to tell one apart from the other is quite useful. It's been quite useful in sports, too. Surely you won't claim that there is no such thing as a man or a woman.
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Old 4th July 2020, 03:38 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary is what I mean.
TBH, I'm not sure why it's such a problem conceptualizing that only one specific variable can have more than two values, when you obviously have no problem with other variables having more than two values. And I say obviously, because you wouldn't even be able to function if your brain absolutely, universally couldn't work with more than two states per variable. I mean, even if you're colour blind, you must be able to at least figure out the concept of "grey".
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Old 4th July 2020, 04:44 AM   #106
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There appears to still be an assumption that someone who isn't at either end of the spectrum must be somewhere in between.

Let's say that one end of the spectrum is people who still like the Ritz Brothers and the other end of the spectrum is people who stopped liking the Ritz Brothers.

Non-binary folk would then be those whose previous liking of the Ritz Brothers is in various states of decline.

But there is a whole set of people who are not at one end, not at the other and nowhere in between. For example those who never liked the Ritz Brothers, or never seen the Ritz Brothers or never heard of them.

So with gender (whatever it turns out to be) just because someone does not definitely identify as a man or definitely identify as a woman does not mean they are in between.
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Old 4th July 2020, 05:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH, I'm not sure why it's such a problem conceptualizing that only one specific variable can have more than two values, when you obviously have no problem with other variables having more than two values.
Because not every variable has more than two values?
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Old 4th July 2020, 06:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is the weirdest thread.
I mean how hard can it be to show that a particular subjective state of mind is "valid and real" anyhow?

ETA: I just realized that the Tweet linked in the OP is from someone who uses blocklists, so it might be tricky to see. Here is the screencap, instead:
Screen Shot 2020-07-04 at 8.14.05 AM.jpg
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Old 4th July 2020, 05:07 PM   #109
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
There appears to still be an assumption that someone who isn't at either end of the spectrum must be somewhere in between.
There also being grey in addition to black and white, was just a vision-related example, rather than saying it's one-dimensional. I mean, with the same vision related example you may notice that something can also be red, green, blue, or indeed purple. The last one being actually a combination of two; there is no such thing as a purple wavelength.
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Old 4th July 2020, 05:21 PM   #110
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because not every variable has more than two values?
Well, yes, but then the issue would be whether it's indeed boolean or not, rather than the "How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary" statement I was answering to. I mean, whether it's true or not, there is nothing incoherent or hard to unpack about the idea that a variable might not be a 1 or 0 affair. Even if all your life you've thought that attribute X is binary, it wouldn't be such a hard idea to 'unpack' if I told you that there are other values. Even just by virtue of being already used to the idea, because you've already dealt with other attributes that have more than one value.

I mean, is one particular guy tall or short? How about he's "about average"? It's something that everyone should already be used to.

Is some guy a football or a baseball fan? Well, how about neither? Everyone should be already familiar with the concept that some people might like, say, wrestling instead. Or ping-pong. Or boxing. Or indeed they might not be into any spectator sports at all.

Does some guy come to work by car or do they ride the bus? Well, they might well come by bike instead. Or live nearby and just walk to work. Hell, they might work from home (especially with Corona and stuff) and just roll out of bed and climb into the computer chair. Etc.

Is some gal a blonde or a brunette? Well, how about she's a redhead? Or might be an albino.

Etc, etc, etc.

That's just a 5 minute exercise off the top of my head. It's THAT easy to come up with examples of non-binary attributes that everyone's already dealt with. So whether or not some other variable is indeed binary or not, someone shouldn't find the very notion incoherent or hard to unpack.
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Old 4th July 2020, 05:58 PM   #111
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Not to forget the 'both' option!

Okay, lame joke. But still, an at least half-serious question: Might there not be folks who, at times, in certain contexts, identify as male, and at other times, other contexts, as female? With neither times, neither set of contexts, overriding the other in frequency or importance to them? And, indeed, in some times and some contexts identifying as neither?

Come to that, I suggest that, perhaps, we all answer to this model, in a way. Even the most staid and prosaic of us will surely, for example, identify as male in certain contexts, and as sex-is-entirely-irrelevant in others, right, at least these two even if never female? Just a question of degree, I guess, when it comes to which particular aspect -- if any! -- stands out in individual cases.

That could be one way of looking at it. Of course, in cases where at most times and most places what one answers to is 'male' -- for example -- well, that is then what one 'is'.

So sure, it isn't binary, at least not in principle. (Albeit it may often be that, binary I mean, in practice. Or, if not 'often', then 'sometimes'; who knows, perhaps even 'rarely'. That much at least, the answer to that last question, can easily, given sufficient resources, be ascertained pretty much objectively. Provided, of course, the question itself is generally found to be a reasonable one.)

.

Okay, one way to delink this from the physical might be via VR. Immerse a guy in a SL-like VR environment for long enough, where they can be who or what they choose, and see how they actually, in practice, act. What they identify as, there. Given a long enough duration of this, as an experiment, we might be able to find out how frequent, or otherwise, non-binary identification is?

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Old 5th July 2020, 02:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, yes, but then the issue would be whether it's indeed boolean or not, rather than the "How do you unpack something thatís fundamentally incoherent like non-binary" statement I was answering to.
I think the reason for that comment is that the poster doesn't think they've seen a proper explanation of what non-binary would mean for biological sex or gender that makes sense to them.

I think you're reading the comment too literally.
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:45 AM   #113
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What I would suggest is that there is no binary, no spectrum and never has been.

Rather gender is a grab bag of disparate, scattered and changing notions and that we overload gender related terms with layers of meaning that depend on context and audience.
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Old 5th July 2020, 09:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What I would suggest is that there is no binary, no spectrum and never has been.

Rather gender is a grab bag of disparate, scattered and changing notions and that we overload gender related terms with layers of meaning that depend on context and audience.
This is something that I wholeheartedly agree with.

There have been a lot of questions and demands, but I apologise for the fact that I don't have the mental energy for this discussion today, so I'm just going to ignore them. This should not be taken to mean that I don't have answers, just that I need to conserve my spell slots for things like getting paid to do work. Sorry about that. I'll probably have more energy later in the week.
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Old 5th July 2020, 09:56 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I linked earlier to an article arguing why misgendering can be considered violence. And this isn't a thread about theism.
Just watched the video you linked to.

A bit of desperate reasoning for why it is a form of violence tbf.

Offensive probably.
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Old 6th July 2020, 12:58 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think there is anything incoherent about deliberately presenting oneself as androgyneWP, though it seems fairly difficult to pull off successfully.
Yes, but is dressing androgynously what is meant by a person being non-binary? No. They mean they are neither man or women, defined by a set of criteria that would make virtually everyone non-binary. Moreover they will tell you themselves (lol) that how one presents is to be totally disaggregated from a personís gender identity, and I guess their identity.

Honestly to me this is just nonsense that no one should pay the slightest attention to, but for some strange reason people want to make this a thing we must all be very, very engaged with. And, it makes smart people act silly ó I mean, seriously, you have a guy on this thread who Iím sure would go to great lengths to explain to people the supposed difference between gender and sex using the terms for sex interchangeably with gender, which is incoherent and silly.
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Old 6th July 2020, 01:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What I would suggest is that there is no binary, no spectrum and never has been.

Rather gender is a grab bag of disparate, scattered and changing notions and that we overload gender related terms with layers of meaning that depend on context and audience.
IMO gender is just the psychological and behavioral characteristics exhibited typically by one sex more than the other. Itís not a special feeling (not that youíre saying it is or even implying it is) or metaphysical or whatever the pronoun brigade think it is. I think if we eliminated gender tomorrow humans would just recapitulate the behaviors and psychology of it all over again and it would look similar to what we see in our society today.
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Old 6th July 2020, 01:16 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well don't ask me. I've been trying to understand that one for a few years now.

But then, if you buy into the idea that gender is whatever you feel like at any moment, the concept of non-binary flows directly from that.
😕 you know what Iíd love to see? Iíd love to see the proponents of this stuff apply the same arguments they use about gender and all that to race or ethnicity. Maybe then theyíd see how silly they are when they are applied to those categories.
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Old 6th July 2020, 04:28 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
😕 you know what Iíd love to see? Iíd love to see the proponents of this stuff apply the same arguments they use about gender and all that to race or ethnicity. Maybe then theyíd see how silly they are when they are applied to those categories.
Can you give an example of what you mean? Are you thinking of something like the Rachel Dolezal Affair?
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Old 6th July 2020, 05:12 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
😕 you know what Iíd love to see? Iíd love to see the proponents of this stuff apply the same arguments they use about gender and all that to race or ethnicity. Maybe then theyíd see how silly they are when they are applied to those categories.
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