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Old 7th July 2020, 04:00 AM   #121
MisAndreG
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
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I AGREE
LOL

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Old 7th July 2020, 07:18 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Yes, but is dressing androgynously what is meant by a person being non-binary? No. They mean they are neither man or women, defined by a set of criteria that would make virtually everyone non-binary. Moreover they will tell you themselves (lol) that how one presents is to be totally disaggregated from a personís gender identity, and I guess their identity.

Honestly to me this is just nonsense that no one should pay the slightest attention to, but for some strange reason people want to make this a thing we must all be very, very engaged with. And, it makes smart people act silly ó I mean, seriously, you have a guy on this thread who Iím sure would go to great lengths to explain to people the supposed difference between gender and sex using the terms for sex interchangeably with gender, which is incoherent and silly.
Couple of typos - dressing should be presenting and women should be woman
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Old 9th July 2020, 07:11 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
�� you know what I’d love to see? I’d love to see the proponents of this stuff apply the same arguments they use about gender and all that to race or ethnicity. Maybe then they’d see how silly they are when they are applied to those categories.
TBH, I don't see a problem. In fact, those would be more like examples of why it shouldn't be that hard to figure out that something might be non-binary.

For a start, race never was binary to start with, even in the good old racist days. You had black, white, hispanic, asian, etc, all along. That's a whole lot more than "binary".

Second, it was always defined ad hoc, with pretty much no scientific basis. E.g., we call whites "caucasian" because some dude thought that the women from the caucasus were the prettiest. And blacks were for him the bottom of the list because he found them ugly. Then he met a beautiful black woman and changed his mind.

Yep, it's always been THAT much just a case of thinking with the dick instead of it actually being clearly defined different states.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Are the celts (e.g., irish) white or a different race? Well, roll the clock back like a century or so, and you'd find people arguing that they're a different race. No, really, Lovecraft's horrific realization at one point was that he has a very distant celtic ancestor, as opposed to proper pure WASP, so OMG that makes him one of those inferior races.

Some would actually classify them as "coloured", while others ranked them even lower than blacks. In fact there were racist pseudo-scientists classifying them as, I kid you not, the missing link between apes and blacks. (Because, I guess, some paper-white ginger has got to come in between a black chimp and a black human)

Are Jews a different race? Well, Adolf sure thought so, even while acknowledging in a letter that there is absolutely no genetic base for that.

Etc.

And people being somewhere in between were always a problem for those trying to treat it as a small number of distinct races. That's why you end up with 'theories' like that even a drop of black blood in your ancestry makes you black, even though you might look paper-white to someone who doesn't know about it.

So, yeah, there you go, it was always known that some people are mixed ancestry and thus somewhere in between.


Ditto for ethnicity. How do you even define ethnicity anyway? What you actually have (if you actually study anthropology at all) is some culture, with a number of subcultures, or rather a fluid spectrum of subcultures.

If you go somewhere like, say, Transylvania, you'll find that there is exactly zero biological or other hard difference between an ethnic Romanian, an ethnic Hungarian, or ethnic German, or most of the ethnic 'gypsies' that the former 3 groups look down on. Even language isn't much help there, since a lot are bilingual. All that differs is whether you've grown up in a certain group and identify with them.

And then there's the fact that each of those are a fluid spectrum. You don't even need to move a lot over geography for each of those groups to start looking rather different in customs and whatnot.
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Old 14th July 2020, 09:51 AM   #124
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Evidently today is #NonBinaryPeoplesDay on Twitter.

Fascinating cross-section of folx, IMO.
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Old 14th July 2020, 10:02 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Evidently today is #NonBinaryPeoplesDay on Twitter.

Fascinating cross-section of folx, IMO.
I wonder how many actual people are diagnosed with that.
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Old 14th July 2020, 10:09 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wonder how many actual people are diagnosed with that.
Unlike gender dysphoriaWP, I don't think seeing oneself as non-binary is in the DSM.

ETA: I'm sure there is some overlap, though.
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Old 14th July 2020, 08:10 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wonder how many actual people are diagnosed with that.
Ha! Diagnosed?!1?!?

That's cancel-bait if ever I heard it.
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Old 14th July 2020, 08:13 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I wonder how many actual people are diagnosed with that.
No-one gets dagnosed with nonbinariness. It's not a disorder or an illness. It's an identity. No-one's going to diagnose you as male.
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Old 14th July 2020, 08:18 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No-one's going to diagnose you as male.
I've heard that it's "assigned" at birth.

I've yet to compete the assignment, but live in dread of the inevitable "pencils down."

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Old 14th July 2020, 09:06 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've heard that it's "assigned" at birth.
Yes. Traditionally, a doctor looks at a newborn's genitalia and declares the child male or female, and that's what goes on the birth certificate. The child is not consulted, therefore their gender is "assigned" by the doctor. This assignation is solely based on the shape of the child's genitals.

The problem with this approach is that when the child grows up, the gender they identify with sometimes doesn't match what was assigned. Some don't identify with either gender, despite what their genitals look like. Those people consider themselves nonbinary.

The problem as I see it largely stems from the idea that gender identity is a "me thing" and a lot of people are still seeing it as a "you thing". What gender I identify as, if any, is not any of your business. You do not get to tell another person what their gender is, and no other person gets to tell you what yours is. If you want to know, you can ask. Many people will happily offer their gender identity, if only so that you know which pronouns you should use. But if you do ask, you may occasionally receive a "why do you want to know?" response. The only reasonable answer to this question is "so that I know which pronouns to use." They will then tell you their pronouns, and you can move on from there.
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Old 14th July 2020, 09:53 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes. Traditionally, a doctor looks at a newborn's genitalia and declares the child male or female, and that's what goes on the birth certificate. The child is not consulted, therefore their gender is "assigned" by the doctor. This assignation is solely based on the shape of the child's genitals.
No. Birth certificates record a childís sex, not their gender. Seriously, thatís the word the forms use: sex, not gender. And the shape of a childís genitals is an extremely accurate indicator of their sex. It is not assigned, it is observed. And most trans issues have nothing to do with incorrectly identified sex.

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The problem with this approach is that when the child grows up, the gender they identify with sometimes doesn't match what was assigned.
No. The problem, which is unavoidable, is that their gender doesnít match their sex. This is not the fault of doctors who observe sex accurately in almost all cases.

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The problem as I see it largely stems from the idea that gender identity is a "me thing" and a lot of people are still seeing it as a "you thing". What gender I identify as, if any, is not any of your business.
That is naive. A personís sex is very relevant to others in many situations. Since gender is a good proxy for sex most of the time, it gets used as such. Thus other people will often want to know it. You can wish this were not so, but it is and always will be.

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You do not get to tell another person what their gender is, and no other person gets to tell you what yours is.
Sure, but people will judge you based on how you present, and you cannot stop them from doing so.

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If you want to know, you can ask. Many people will happily offer their gender identity, if only so that you know which pronouns you should use. But if you do ask, you may occasionally receive a "why do you want to know?" response. The only reasonable answer to this question is "so that I know which pronouns to use."
That is what you consider the polite response. That doesnít mean it the only reasonable response.
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Old 14th July 2020, 10:14 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Birth certificates record a childís sex, not their gender. Seriously, thatís the word the forms use: sex, not gender. And the shape of a childís genitals is an extremely accurate indicator of their sex. It is not assigned, it is observed. And most trans issues have nothing to do with incorrectly identified sex.
The sex/gender differentiation isn't as clear-cut as all that. I'm pretty sure we've been through this before.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is naive. A personís sex is very relevant to others in many situations.
Such as?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, but people will judge you based on how you present, and you cannot stop them from doing so.
You judge people based on their gender presentation? In what ways do you consider someone who presents as a woman different from someone who presents as a man from someone who presents ambiguously? What judgements do you make on that basis?

I submit to you that you should make no judgements of someone based on their gender presentation.

Also note that gender presentation is different from gender identity. I used to work with a man (I asked) who presented as a woman. He identified as a man, and used male pronouns, while dressing as a woman. Yes, in the workplace. The only time he used female pronouns was when he was on stage, as the drag queen Sheneeda Beverage.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is what you consider the polite response. That doesnít mean it the only reasonable response.
If you consider impolite responses reasonable, that's something that you need to deal with.
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Old 15th July 2020, 12:55 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The sex/gender differentiation isn't as clear-cut as all that. I'm pretty sure we've been through this before.
Huh?

My understanding is that biological sex falls into male, female and in extremely rare cases "intersex", of which even then, it is more or less clear that either male or female is the predominant sex.

Gender has a social dimension, but even then it tends to follow biological sex pretty closely.
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Old 15th July 2020, 01:44 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh?

My understanding is that biological sex falls into male, female and in extremely rare cases "intersex", of which even then, it is more or less clear that either male or female is the predominant sex.

Gender has a social dimension, but even then it tends to follow biological sex pretty closely.
This whole debate would have been a lot simpler if social scientists had made up some new words instead of reuse "man" and "woman" for their new concept back in the 60s.
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Old 15th July 2020, 02:29 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Ha! Diagnosed?!1?!?

That's cancel-bait if ever I heard it.
Well that raises an interesting point, though. A few years ago transgenderism was equated with gender dysphoria, which meant that you needed a diagnostic from a mental health professional to qualify. Nonbinary would be similar, I would think. But now there seems to be no standard at all except self-identification. But self-ID on anything has never been particularily reliable.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No-one gets dagnosed with nonbinariness. It's not a disorder or an illness.
That seems to be in contention.

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No-one's going to diagnose you as male.
Male is not an identity, and yes they will. They did when I was born.
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Old 15th July 2020, 02:31 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This whole debate would have been a lot simpler if social scientists had made up some new words instead of reuse "man" and "woman" for their new concept back in the 60s.
I'm not sure scientists are the ones driving this debate.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The sex/gender differentiation isn't as clear-cut as all that.
Careful now. You're running the risk of being called a transphobe by some.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:02 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well that raises an interesting point, though. A few years ago transgenderism was equated with gender dysphoria, which meant that you needed a diagnostic from a mental health professional to qualify. Nonbinary would be similar, I would think. But now there seems to be no standard at all except self-identification. But self-ID on anything has never been particularily reliable.
Indeed. Pretty much no scientific finding is trustworthy if it relies on self-reporting.

That study on exercise and nutrition relies on self-reporting of calories? Nope, I don't think so.

That medical trial relies on self-reporting of symptoms? Sorry, medical weed, acupuncture, and healing crystals, but no!

In fact, plenty of real science shows that self-reporting is a really terrible metric for almost anything.

"I know what I saw!" No you don't.
"I remember it clearly!" Sorry, but think again.
"I loved my uncle!" You hated him, and always said so.
"In the good old days there was never any animosity between black and white. The black kids used to play on our porch." Yeah, and they were also barred from most businesses, marrying who they wanted, voting, and often got lynched. But sure, total harmony!

Qualia was mentioned earlier:

The concept of qualia is suspect at the best of times, but at least when it is asked of what it is like to be a bat, it can be coherently answered that we simply cannot know.

The problem of qualia being used in this case, is that you cannot understand what it is like to be me, and yet I understand what it is like to be a bat.
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Old 15th July 2020, 03:52 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Indeed. Pretty much no scientific finding is trustworthy if it relies on self-reporting.
Small correction: if it relies entirely on self-reporting.
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Old 15th July 2020, 07:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The sex/gender differentiation isn't as clear-cut as all that.
It's sufficiently clear that saying doctors assign gender rather than observe sex on birth certificates is a lie.

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Such as?
Such as when one considers whether to pursue romantic interest in someone else.

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You judge people based on their gender presentation?
In some situations, yes. And I have little doubt you do too, even if you lie to yourself about it.

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In what ways do you consider someone who presents as a woman different from someone who presents as a man from someone who presents ambiguously? What judgements do you make on that basis?
I judge whether or not they are a candidate for romantic interest on that basis.

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I submit to you that you should make no judgements of someone based on their gender presentation.
That is stupid. I do, I will, and so will the rest of the world. What you think should be the case is irrelevant, especially since what you want is impossible to achieve.

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Also note that gender presentation is different from gender identity.
Sure. Doesn't change anything I said, though.

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If you consider impolite responses reasonable, that's something that you need to deal with.
You missed the point: what YOU consider polite doesn't dictate what I have to consider polite. But as a matter of fact, while politeness is more often than not the appropriate response, that is not always the case. It's situational. And again, I'm sure you know that, if you're being honest.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:03 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Birth certificates record a childís sex, not their gender. Seriously, thatís the word the forms use: sex, not gender. And the shape of a childís genitals is an extremely accurate indicator of their sex. It is not assigned, it is observed.
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender; what is recorded may have -- depenindg on jurisdiction -- inplications on how inheritence is divided, on whether someone is allowed to vote or who one is allowed to marry.

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No. The problem, which is unavoidable,
The problem is easily avoidable. As more and more modern countries decide that discrimination based on gender/sex is to be avoided, there is less and less reason to bother recording sex on birth certificates.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:04 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
A personís sex is very relevant to others in many situations.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Such as?
Dating, perhaps?

Locker rooms with communal showers?

Recruiting for the WNBA?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:05 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender; what is recorded may have -- depenindg on jurisdiction -- inplications on how inheritence is divided, on whether someone is allowed to vote or who one is allowed to marry.
So why are western states still recording it?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:06 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Evidently today is #NonBinaryPeoplesDay on Twitter.

Fascinating cross-section of folx, IMO.
Yeh, as in morbidly fascinating.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:09 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So why are western states still recording it?
Mainly tradition. Though some countries are a bit farther ahead when it comes to elimination of sex and/or gender in the law.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Mainly tradition. Though some countries are a bit farther ahead when it comes to elimination of sex and/or gender in the law.
Have you considered the possibility that it's actually useful information, instead?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:11 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender; what is recorded may have -- depenindg on jurisdiction -- inplications on how inheritence is divided, on whether someone is allowed to vote or who one is allowed to marry.
Doesn't this go back to when gender and sex meant the same thing?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:12 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Doesn't this go back to when gender and sex meant the same thing?
More to the point: it seems really hard to pin down exactly what "gender" means now. My recent attempts have been unsuccessful.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:20 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender; what is recorded may have -- depenindg on jurisdiction -- inplications on how inheritence is divided, on whether someone is allowed to vote or who one is allowed to marry.

The problem is easily avoidable. As more and more modern countries decide that discrimination based on gender/sex is to be avoided, there is less and less reason to bother recording sex on birth certificates.
There are biological differences between the sexes. Hormone balances. Characteristic pathologies. Unique organs.

Even if you got rid of gender discrimination completely, there'd still be an absolute need to record sex, and to practice sex discrimination.

Here's what happens when you think sex no longer needs to be recorded, and gender can be whatever you say it is:

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/elizabet...sification.pdf

A woman shows up at the ER requiring urgent medical attention for pregnancy complications. But she presents as a man and her medical records indicate her sex is male. So the admitting nurse triaged her as a man, with non-urgent abdominal discomfort. It was several hours before an ER physician got around to examining her and discovering that her situation was a lot worse than previously assumed. If her medical records had been accurate, she would have gotten the urgency her condition called for.

The most bizarre part of this story, to me, is that the patient didn't think to tell the admitting nurse that she was a woman and might be pregnant. She was apparently so committed to living her personal truth that she had forgotten it wasn't actually true. It's bizarre to me because she must have known she still had a fully operational uterus. And at some point in the previous nine months she must have undergone some kind of insemination procedure. She had recently been living as a woman, and it can't possibly have slipped her mind that for medical purposes she was in fact a woman. Can it?

Last edited by theprestige; 15th July 2020 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:28 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Have you considered the possibility that it's actually useful information, instead?
I have considered it, but I don't see how it is any more useful than the registration at birth of religion or race, as some countries do.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Doesn't this go back to when gender and sex meant the same thing?
Yes, there have been many attempts at making them mean the same thing and making it taboo to point out how they are different.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
More to the point: it seems really hard to pin down exactly what "gender" means now.
Trying to "pin down" a fluid concept is where you go wrong.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:31 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I have considered it, but I don't see how it is any more useful than the registration at birth of religion or race, as some countries do.
Theprestige has already noted a number of uses.

Quote:
Trying to "pin down" a fluid concept is where you go wrong.
What do you mean by fluid? Do you mean that the definition is currently changing? Or that gender itself is complex? Or what?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:38 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I have considered it, but I don't see how it is any more useful than the registration at birth of religion or race, as some countries do.

Yes, there have been many attempts at making them mean the same thing and making it taboo to point out how they are different.

Trying to "pin down" a fluid concept is where you go wrong.
There's nothing fluid about the distinction between testes and ovaries.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:40 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's nothing fluid about the distinction between testes and ovaries.
Yeah but I was talking about gender. Apparently it's completely distinct from biological sex but I can never get a precise definition of what it is. Invariably I get the definition of gender identity or gender presentation or gender role, but not gender itself.

It's almost as if there's no actual distinction.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:43 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I have considered it, but I don't see how it is any more useful than the registration at birth of religion or race, as some countries do.
Christianity is a religious belief.

Blood type is a scientific fact.

Do you think biological sex is more like a religious belief, or more like a scientific fact?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:44 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but I was talking about gender. Apparently it's completely distinct from biological sex but I can never get a precise definition of what it is. Invariably I get the definition of gender identity or gender presentation or gender role, but not gender itself.

It's almost as if there's no actual distinction.
Ah, my bad. Thanks for the correction. I was still thinking about the need to record the actual sex of a person for medical reasons.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:46 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are biological differences between the sexes. Hormone balances. Characteristic pathologies. Unique organs.
Sure. None of which is the government's business.

Quote:
Here's what happens when you think sex no longer needs to be recorded, and gender can be whatever you say it is:
Registering biological sex in a medical record does not require it putting it on someone's birth certificate and they do not always match. It is quite likely in the example you gave, this person still has an F on his birth certificate and the M on the medical record is there mainly to inform hospital staff how to adress patients. An extra checkbox for "cis" or "trans" might be useful.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:49 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure. None of which is the government's business.
What is and is not the gov's business is also pretty fluid.

Quote:
Registering biological sex in a medical record does not require it putting it on someone's birth certificate and they do not always match.
Not always match with what?
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:54 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender;
Says who?

Quote:
what is recorded may have -- depenindg on jurisdiction -- inplications on how inheritence is divided, on whether someone is allowed to vote or who one is allowed to marry.
Not in the US, it isn't. I doubt it is in Germany either. And I also doubt that where it DOES matter for those issues they take the ideas of "gender identity" as different than biological sex seriously to begin with.

Quote:
The problem is easily avoidable.
It hasn't been established that it is a problem.

Quote:
As more and more modern countries decide that discrimination based on gender/sex is to be avoided, there is less and less reason to bother recording sex on birth certificates.
Even supposing we stop recording that, it still has **** all to do with this nonsensical notion that doctors "assign" gender. That isn't what happens.
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Old 15th July 2020, 08:56 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Registering biological sex in a medical record does not require it putting it on someone's birth certificate and they do not always match.
Cases where biological sex is inaccurately determined at birth are exceptionally rare. They are not driving the transgender and gender identity debates.
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:08 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure. None of which is the government's business.
If the government is providing and regulating healthcare it sure is.

Quote:
Registering biological sex in a medical record does not require it putting it on someone's birth certificate and they do not always match. It is quite likely in the example you gave, this person still has an F on his birth certificate and the M on the medical record is there mainly to inform hospital staff how to adress patients. An extra checkbox for "cis" or "trans" might be useful.
The birth certificate is often the original source of truth for other medical records.

And a checkbox that accurately reflects the biological sex of the patient is probably the most useful thing.

Do you really believe the purpose of the biological sex field on the form is to advise the medical staff on how to address the patient? Do you really believe that is the path to good medical outcomes?

Also, if gender is so fluid, then how can their stated gender possibly contain reliable information about how they should be addressed? Isn't it presumptuous to assume that because a person has an "M" on their chart, they want to be addressed as "Sir"?

Also, is it really a good idea to burden medical staff with all the complexities and nuances of personal pronouns? Shouldn't medical records serve to clear the doctor's mind of irrelevancies, and help them to focus on what actually matters to the health of the patient?
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not always match with what?
I think he's saying that sex on the birth certificate and sex on the medical record don't always match (and therefore putting sex on the birth certificate is not important anymore).
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