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Old 15th July 2020, 09:03 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
At least partially, yes.
Partially? No, completely.
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Old 15th July 2020, 09:06 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Partially? No, completely.
At least partially. It is likely to be influenced by external factors such as the environment in which a person was raised. It seems likely to me that people who are raised in an environment where the gender binary is not strongly emphasised will have a less strong personal idea of what gender is.
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Old 16th July 2020, 03:42 AM   #203
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I can confirm that. I may have mentioned a few times before that I was raised to be both, at different times, and I utterly don't get what the fuss is over identity.
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Old 16th July 2020, 03:58 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Mmmm hmmmm. Well, feel free to try to defend your analogy that sex is like height. I'm still wondering what feelings you have that arise solely from your being whatever sex you are, and from no other sources, and how you tell.
That has nothing to do with what I said, though. All I'm saying is that I know what it is to be as tall as I am, but not what it is to be, say, taller. I know what it is to be a man but not a woman.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No. The analogy isn’t worth pursuing and it doesn’t illuminate anything.

If sex is a biological set of characteristics then we don’t need to describe it in terms of how it feels.
You seem to say that you disagree with me but then you're saying the same thing I am.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Especially since, as was my point, it's impossible to determine how it feels.
It's impossible to determine how I feel? Sorry, I don't get your point.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:03 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Male" can describe both "biological sex" (which for the purposes of this discussion I will assume is a real thing and defined accurately) and gender identity.
No. "Male" is not a gender. You're thinking of 'man'.

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But again, don't conflate the two.
You just conflated the two!

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You literally said that male is not a gender identity. How does that not deny the validity of someone whose gender identity is male?
First of all, see above. You're still confusing sex and gender here. Second, saying that you are wrong doesn't "erase" your identity. Otherwise that would mean that telling theists that their god doesn't exist "erases" their faith.

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Excellent! As I said, you're starting to understand. Gender does not have an objective definition, and means different things to different people.
Don't misrepresent my words. I said that gender means nothing.

And any word that has a definition based on each individual feeling is useless.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:19 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And also people can simulate height changes by standing on objects.
If I cosplay as Justin Trudeau, do I know what it is like to be black?
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:51 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That has nothing to do with what I said, though. All I'm saying is that I know what it is to be as tall as I am, but not what it is to be, say, taller. I know what it is to be a man but not a woman.

It's impossible to determine how I feel? Sorry, I don't get your point.
Describe how it feels to have your blood type. Distinguish those feelings from how people with different blood types feel from having their blood types. Can you do it? The point is that if you have always experienced a state, for every instant of your existence, without ever having that state change or be switched off, you cannot distinguish which feelings you have are caused by that state.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:55 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Describe how it feels to have your blood type. Distinguish those feelings from how people with different blood types feel from having their blood types. Can you do it?
That is a ridiculous question not at all analogous to height or sex because it contains no observable states for my feelings. I can observe my height and weight and some of my sexual characeristics, and my feelings, but I can't know those of other people. I can only extrapolate from observing their behaviour.

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The point is that if you have always experienced a state, for every instant of your existence, without ever having that state change or be switched off, you cannot distinguish which feelings you have are caused by that state.
That was not my claim. This is the second time I correct you on this: am I not talking about distinguishing anything; only about knowing what the current state feels like. Either way, we do not define biological sex by what it feels.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:27 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That is a ridiculous question not at all analogous to height or sex because it contains no observable states for my feelings. I can observe my height and weight and some of my sexual characeristics, and my feelings, but I can't know those of other people. I can only extrapolate from observing their behaviour.
You can observe some of your sexual characteristics but not all of them. You cannot know how it feels to have a Y chromosome versus not having a Y chromosome because you have never not experienced that state, and cannot distinguish any feelings you have that come from that source from any other feelings you have that come from other sources.

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That was not my claim. This is the second time I correct you on this: am I not talking about distinguishing anything; only about knowing what the current state feels like.
If you cannot distinguish the feelings that come from being A from the feelings that come from being B because you have always been both A and B, then it means you do not know what feelings come from being A. Hence you do not know how it feels to be A. You can only answer for the feelings that come from AB. For all you know, every feeling you have arises from being B, and A is completely without feeling entirely. You have no way to tell.

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Either way, we do not define biological sex by what it feels.
Agreed, which is why nobody made that claim.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:30 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You can observe some of your sexual characteristics but not all of them.
Obviously, but so what? I observe enough to know that it's like in basic terms. No one claimed that you can know everything about it. It's not a requisite in order to know what it's like.

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If you cannot distinguish the feelings that come from being A from the feelings that come from being B because you have always been both A and B, then it means you do not know what feelings come from being A. Hence you do not know how it feels to be A. You can only answer for the feelings that come from AB. For all you know, every feeling you have arises from being B, and A is completely without feeling entirely. You have no way to tell.
Sorry, I'm not sure I'm parsing this right. What's A and B in this instance?
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:38 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Obviously, but so what? I observe enough to know that it's like in basic terms. No one claimed that you can know everything about it. It's not a requisite in order to know what it's like.
I'm not saying you need to know everything about it. I'm pointing out that if you always experience several things, and never don't experience all of them simultaneously, and never experience just one by itself, you cannot determine how any one of those things actually feels. You know only the combination, not the individual components.

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Sorry, I'm not sure I'm parsing this right. What's A and B in this instance?
Two states that you have always been.

Resorting to another analogy: supposed you've never had the spices kloriam and ecciphant separately. The only time you've ever had either is when they're both mixed together. Not once have you tasted a single solitary grain of either, you've only had both at the same time.

Now: what does kloriam taste like? You've experienced kloriam, therefore you must know what it tastes like, right? That's what you're arguing.

What I'm arguing is that no, you don't know what kloriam tastes like because you've never had it without ecciphant. What you think of as the taste of kloriam is actually ecciphant. Kloriam is tasteless, and is added just as a rising agent. Without experiencing a state in isolation from other states, you cannot distinguish it from others and trace your feelings to their source.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:45 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm not saying you need to know everything about it. I'm pointing out that if you always experience several things, and never don't experience all of them simultaneously, and never experience just one by itself, you cannot determine how any one of those things actually feels. You know only the combination, not the individual components.
Ok I understand now.

That might be true if we were all in isolation. But as it stands we interact with one another all the time and we can observe that the group with which we share characteristic A also shares some behaviours and reported feelings and such, regardless of whether they share characteristic B. By observation of other people we can, quite trivially I think, draw generally correction conclusions.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:51 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok I understand now.

That might be true if we were all in isolation. But as it stands we interact with one another all the time and we can observe that the group with which we share characteristic A also shares some behaviours and reported feelings and such, regardless of whether they share characteristic B. By observation of other people we can, quite trivially I think, draw generally correction conclusions.
True-- but that suggests that what we think is caused by biology (or physics or chemistry) is actually created by social interaction. A male person who crashed on a desert island as an infant and grew up totally isolated from other humans might have an entirely different experience of being male as opposed to males surrounded by other males and females.

We won't know unless we can conduct some extremely unethical and probably physically gruesome experiments.
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Old 16th July 2020, 05:57 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
True-- but that suggests that what we think is caused by biology (or physics or chemistry) is actually created by social interaction.
Not necessarily, but perhaps up to a degree. It's just that without other humans to live with we're probably missing out on quite a lot in terms of understanding, for sure.

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We won't know unless we can conduct some extremely unethical and probably physically gruesome experiments.
Tell you what: you find suitable subjects and I'll see about the island.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:20 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why?
Because without understanding what it typically feels like to be a (wo)man, you cannot say with any certainty that what you are experiencing is atypical.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:22 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not in the US, it isn't.
Rather recently it was. And on this very forum some people have argued in favour of using sex/gender registration on birth certificates for new forms of discrimination, for example for determining which restroom one is allowed into.

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I doubt it is in Germany either. And I also doubt that where it DOES matter for those issues they take the ideas of "gender identity" as different than biological sex seriously to begin with.
Not sure why you use Germany as an example, but it is an interesting case. In Germany people can request to be registered "neutral" on their birth certificate.

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Even supposing we stop recording that, it still has **** all to do with this nonsensical notion that doctors "assign" gender. That isn't what happens.
It is what happens. You just don't know what "assigning gender" means.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:26 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Rather recently it was. And on this very forum some people have argued in favour of using sex/gender registration on birth certificates for new forms of discrimination, for example for determining which restroom one is allowed into.
Well, if we're in favour of letting trans people go into the restroom of their choice, how is one to know that they are actually trans? Otherwise what we're saying is "anyone can go into any restroom", which works for me.

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It is what happens. You just don't know what "assigning gender" means.
No, they assign sex based on observation.

Are you saying that sex and gender are the same thing?
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is what happens. You just don't know what "assigning gender" means.
Then we're into humpty dumpty linguistics territory, and I don't give a **** what it's supposed to mean today. Under any normal usage of language, it absolutely isn't what doctors do.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:33 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, but people knowing your sex is generally not a problem. So why is it a problem here?
Whipping out you primary sex characteristics can get you into a bit of legal trouble, even in the West.
People generally don't know your sex; they infer it from your gender presentation.
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Aren't sex and gender different?
Yes, they are.

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I thought you couldn't change sex.
You can change sex. Though one cannot go from one end of the spectrum of sex all the way over to the other side.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:40 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Whipping out you primary sex characteristics can get you into a bit of legal trouble, even in the West.

People generally don't know your sex; they infer it from your gender presentation.
Meaningless semantics. Most people infer your sex from what they observe, and they are correct over 99% of the time.

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Yes, they are.
Marvelous. Can you provide a useful definition of "gender", then? I've been looking for one.

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You can change sex.
No you can't.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:46 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, they assign sex based on observation
They assign gender, based on an observation of sex.

One could imagine a hypothetical society where gender is assigned based on an observation of a coin toss. In such a society there would be the genders of "heads" and "tails".
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:48 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
They assign gender, based on an observation of sex.
Which sounds like both are the same.

You say they aren't. What's the distinction (in your words)?
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:51 AM   #223
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The two used to mean literally exactly the same thing. Now some people act as if they totally mean different things, and everyone should totally already know that. Thing is though, you can only change the meaning of a word if you actually get the majority to agree to the new meaning. Otherwise it's just jargon meaning for a group, and it doesn't make the old meaning wrong for anyone else.

It's like if I decided that "dinosaur" now means "thursday". Unless I can actually convince the rest of the people to use it that way, it still doesn't actually mean "thursday."

Short version: use it as meaning something different if you like, but kindly stop acting as if it's a failure of everyone else if they don't immediately adopt your redefined meaning.
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Old 16th July 2020, 06:56 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Describe how it feels to have your blood type. Distinguish those feelings from how people with different blood types feel from having their blood types. Can you do it?
Interesting analogy. To extend it a bit, imagine a world in which 99.5% percent of people have either A+ or O+ blood types. What would it mean to say "I don't feel like either of those types." I'm drawing a blank here, in part because I doubt that the subjective experience of those groups really differs. I suppose we could layer on something akin to patriarchy, under which the A+ people keep the O+ in relatively lower status (even unpaid) jobs, and then it makes more sense since we've differentiated between the two groups based on social roles.
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Old 16th July 2020, 07:06 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Meaningless semantics. Most people infer your sex from what they observe, and they are correct over 99% of the time.
Only because most people conform to the gender expectations associated with their sex.

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Marvelous. Can you provide a useful definition of "gender", then? I've been looking for one.
The term "gender" in these discussions refers to the way it it used in feminist writing and cultural anthropology and refers to everything that is commonly associated with a distinction between men and women, but does not refer to any biological difference.

[everything to do with men and women] - [biological sex] = [gender]

It is necessarily a fluid concept, as it can differ from culture to culture, and has changed throughout history.

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No you can't.
Pretty sure you can. Obviously a biological male cannot change into a biological female or vice versa, but if a person has one's primary sex characteristics radically altered, it seems weird to claim that nothing has changed.
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Old 16th July 2020, 07:17 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Interesting analogy. To extend it a bit, imagine a world in which 99.5% percent of people have either A+ or O+ blood types. What would it mean to say "I don't feel like either of those types." I'm drawing a blank here, in part because I doubt that the subjective experience of those groups really differs
In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.
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Old 16th July 2020, 07:21 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The term "gender" in these discussions refers to the way it it used in feminist writing and cultural anthropology and refers to everything that is commonly associated with a distinction between men and women, but does not refer to any biological difference.
I think that's gender roles rather than gender identity. Not that I'm sure you can have the latter w/o the former.

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Old 16th July 2020, 07:22 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Only because most people conform to the gender expectations associated with their sex.
That sounds a bit circular. It's just as likely that the confirmity is due to the biology.

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The term "gender" in these discussions refers to the way it it used in feminist writing and cultural anthropology and refers to everything that is commonly associated with a distinction between men and women, but does not refer to any biological difference.

[everything to do with men and women] - [biological sex] = [gender]

It is necessarily a fluid concept, as it can differ from culture to culture, and has changed throughout history.
Ok then I need to have a definition of what a man is and what a woman is. Is it simply defined by culture?

[/quote]Pretty sure you can. Obviously a biological male cannot change into a biological female or vice versa, but if a person has one's primary sex characteristics radically altered, it seems weird to claim that nothing has changed.[/quote]

I didn't say nothing has changed. I said that the sex didn't change, and here you agree.
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Old 16th July 2020, 08:21 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Pretty sure you can. Obviously a biological male cannot change into a biological female or vice versa, but if a person has one's primary sex characteristics radically altered, it seems weird to claim that nothing has changed.
Especially if a doctor looking at a newborn's genitals is to be considered a reliable way of determining their sex.
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Old 16th July 2020, 08:29 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
[everything to do with men and women] - [biological sex] = [gender]
Doctors must have incredible magical powers, to be able to assign everything nonbiological to do with men and women to a person by merely writing down one word on a form. Absolutely incredible powers. Imagine what else we could harness these powers for.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:03 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Especially if a doctor looking at a newborn's genitals is to be considered a reliable way of determining their sex.
Except that they're not the same thing. The genitals are a visible result of a number of things that makes one a male or female. Changing that one thing, for example, does not alter the rest.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:25 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Except that they're not the same thing. The genitals are a visible result of a number of things that makes one a male or female. Changing that one thing, for example, does not alter the rest.
In the same way that a tiger has a tail and stripes, but doesn't stop being a tiger just because you cut it's tail off and bleach it.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:11 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No. "Male" is not a gender. You're thinking of 'man'.
If you replace "male" in my statement with "man", then the meaning is the same.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
First of all, see above. You're still confusing sex and gender here. Second, saying that you are wrong doesn't "erase" your identity. Otherwise that would mean that telling theists that their god doesn't exist "erases" their faith.
Again, you're literally telling someone that their identity doesn't exist. It would be like telling an American that they're not American because America doesn't exist.

Damn, analogies are hard. That's probably not a great one.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Don't misrepresent my words. I said that gender means nothing.

And any word that has a definition based on each individual feeling is useless.
Therefore words like "Love" mean nothing and is useless, because it is based on someone's individual feeling.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Because without understanding what it typically feels like to be a (wo)man, you cannot say with any certainty that what you are experiencing is atypical.
Why would it have to be atypical to be valid?
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:14 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why would it have to be atypical to be valid?
I've no idea what "valid" should be taken to mean an here.

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Old 16th July 2020, 04:18 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've no idea what "valid" should be taken to mean an here.
That's fair, because I've no idea what "atypical" should be taken to mean.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:24 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you replace "male" in my statement with "man", then the meaning is the same.
Not if you think gender and sex are two different things. How about you clarify that?

Quote:
Again, you're literally telling someone that their identity doesn't exist.
No, I'm not. Maybe figuratively, to you, but definitely not literally.

That's the part you don't understand: they don't suddenly lose their identity, anymore than theists lose their faith.

Quote:
Therefore words like "Love" mean nothing and is useless
No, because the definition of "love" doesn't change from one individual to another.

Quote:
Why would it have to be atypical to be valid?
Here you're making another mistake. You seem to be saying that the description and the value are inherently linked.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:36 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not if you think gender and sex are two different things. How about you clarify that?
Would it do any good?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I'm not. Maybe figuratively, to you, but definitely not literally.

That's the part you don't understand: they don't suddenly lose their identity, anymore than theists lose their faith.
How can I explain this?

Say that you are an American. I don't know if this is true, but this is just an example. I keep referring to you as a Canadian, and asking you how life is in Canada. You keep insisting that you are American, not Canadian, but I don't appear to be listening. When you press me on it, I tell you that America doesn't exist. How much of this would you take before you started to get annoyed?

Now multiply that by about a million times for nonbinary people.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, because the definition of "love" doesn't change from one individual to another.
Yeah it does. Absolutely it does. The Greeks had four different words for it.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here you're making another mistake. You seem to be saying that the description and the value are inherently linked.
I am saying that, and it is not a mistake. Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can marginalise and dehumanise.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:46 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's fair, because I've no idea what "atypical" should be taken to mean.
The usual dictionary definition will suffice here. Is that true of "valid" as well?

In order to say you're not X and not Y, you've got to have a decent idea of what it would actually mean to be either one. If men have a set of subjective experiences which are typical to men (but not women), and if women have a set of subjective experiences which are typical to women (but not men) then individuals who can rule (at least) most of those gendered experiences out could correctly (validly?) be said to subjectively experiencing life as neither men nor women.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:49 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The usual dictionary definition will suffice here. Is that true of "valid" as well?

In order to say you're not X and not Y, you've got to have a decent idea of what it would actually mean to be either one. If men have a set of subjective experiences which are typical to men (but not women), and if women have a set of subjective experiences which are typical to women (but not men) then individuals who can rule (at least) most of those gendered experiences out could correctly be said to subjectively experiencing life as neither men nor women.
I can say that I'm not American and not Canadian, without knowing what it is like to be either. I can say this because I am Australian, and I know that is distinct from both.

A nonbinary person can say that they're not male and not female without knowing what it is like to be either. They can say this because they know what they feel like and they feel distinct from both.

Again the analogy to nationalities isn't that great.
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Old 16th July 2020, 04:52 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I can say that I'm not American and not Canadian, without knowing what it is like to be either. I can say this because I am Australian, and I know that is distinct from both.
If you want to say gender identity is entirely a matter of subjective experience and self-reporting, analogizing to something which is a matter of intersubjective social consensus and/or documented legal status probably won't get you where you are hoping to go.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A nonbinary person can say that they're not male and not female without knowing what it is like to be either.
Are we talking about sex now instead of gender?

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They can say this because they know what they feel like and they feel distinct from both.
How can anyone know what it's like to feel distinct from something they've never felt?
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