ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th July 2020, 04:59 PM   #241
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,920
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 05:35 PM   #242
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,538
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
Which pronouns? There’s a plethora of them now, many of which I don’t know or remember.

As for why do I care, that’s an ironic question to ask. There’s a phrase which encapsulates the current zeitgeist in this regard: you will be made to care. The pushback is in no small part because many of us do not want to be made to care.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 05:42 PM   #243
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,920
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which pronouns? There’s a plethora of them now, many of which I don’t know or remember.
Most of which are used by a vanishingly small number of people. Few nonbinary people would object if you used they/them. If in doubt, ask.

I can't believe that this is still a thing.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 05:44 PM   #244
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,387
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
I've no problem whatsoever with using they/them pronouns. It's a fairly small concession—requiring a tiny amount of mental effort—and it flows naturally from typical English usage in cases where we don't know the sex or gender of the persons of whom we speak.

My questions remain unanswered, though. I'm getting the sense that you think I should be (a)shamed for even asking...
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 16th July 2020 at 05:55 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 05:50 PM   #245
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,538
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Most of which are used by a vanishingly small number of people. Few nonbinary people would object if you used they/them. If in doubt, ask.

I can't believe that this is still a thing.
If *I* am asked to use he/she/they/it, I will likely oblige though I might on occasion forget. I will not announce my pronouns because that is stupid, and I will assume pronouns of others unless told them. I can’t believe that doesn’t suffice. But for some reason, it doesn’t.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 05:57 PM   #246
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,920
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
My questions remain unanswered, though. I'm getting the sense that you think I should be (a)shamed for even asking...
And likely will continue to remain unanswered, because I suspect that the questions as posed are unanswerable.

As for feeling ashamed, well, the way you're asking is coming across as a little bit enbyphobic. Not violently so, but a little bit.

Like that word? I think I just made it up. Enby is a shorthand that some NonBinary folk use for themselves.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:00 PM   #247
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,920
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If *I* am asked to use he/she/they/it, I will likely oblige though I might on occasion forget.
It is okay to forget occasionally. As long as you acknowledge that and try harder in the future.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I will not announce my pronouns because that is stupid...
You may have noticed that I have announced mine, and I am as cishet as they come. It's not stupid, and I look forward to more people doing it.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
and I will assume pronouns of others unless told them.
In the most part you will have no problem with this. But if you're not sure - if you find yourself in a situation like with me and my drag queen coworker - it's best to ask.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I can’t believe that doesn’t suffice. But for some reason, it doesn’t.
It will suffice in most situations. Possibly even the vast majority. Just be aware, and be considerate. That's all anyone is asking.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:03 PM   #248
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,816
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Would it do any good?
Well, clarifying the terms you use and the concepts you're trying to explain definitely sounds like it would make the conversation more productive.

Quote:
Say that you are an American.
Yuck!

Quote:
I don't know if this is true, but this is just an example. I keep referring to you as a Canadian, and asking you how life is in Canada. You keep insisting that you are American, not Canadian, but I don't appear to be listening. When you press me on it, I tell you that America doesn't exist. How much of this would you take before you started to get annoyed?
I'd get annoyed on the first go, but that also wouldn't erase the fact that I'd be American.

Quote:
Now multiply that by about a million times for nonbinary people.
Can you explain to me why a trans person's identity is somehow more valid than an American's, or a Christian's?

Quote:
Yeah it does. Absolutely it does. The Greeks had four different words for it.
How is that relevant? I'm not talking about how each person views love or how they experience it. I'm talking about the definition. The meaning of the word we all use to communicate. Now apply that to the qword "gender".

Quote:
I am saying that, and it is not a mistake.
Yes it is. Typical and atypical have nothing to do with whether it's valid. Nothing at all.

I'm left handed. That's atypical. It's entirely valid.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:05 PM   #249
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,816
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You may have noticed that I have announced mine
I never announce mine anywhere, and somehow people pick up exactly which pronouns are appropriate. Huh.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:18 PM   #250
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,514
"I want to think of myself as <x>".
-- good on ya. No complaints and who cares what I think.

"I want you/society to treat me as <x>".
-- now it gets messy and you're actively placing demands on my behavior.

BTW - my pronouns are "Your/His Majesty". Please respect when discussing.
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:25 PM   #251
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,535
To sum up:

All the Impacts on Binary Persons from the Existence of Nonbinary Persons:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. There might be embarrassment over using incorrect pronouns.


Is that it? Because that's not even new, I'm sure almost everybody has mistaken a binary man for a binary woman and vice versa at some point in their lives. Yes, it's an embarrassing mistake to make. But people get over it.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 06:31 PM   #252
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,387
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And likely will continue to remain unanswered, because I suspect that the questions as posed are unanswerable.
Please see the OP, though, and notice that I'm trying to understand the stance put fwd by activist enbyphiles.

I'm curious to know what "valid and real" should be taken to mean in this context. If "valid" merely means "that which ought be validated" then okay that's a question of personal values. But "real"...? I've no idea.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 16th July 2020 at 06:33 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 07:36 PM   #253
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,182
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
Three points here:

1. It is good to be able to understand others, especially people who are vulnerable in society.

2. Following a procedure without understanding the underlying concepts is a really good recipe for making mistakes as I have found through years of IT support.

3. I would also like to know where I stand in all of this, if anywhere. Having been a gender outsider for decades one would think that some of this would make sense of my place in society, but really it is just another group where I am an outsider.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 08:11 PM   #254
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
This will probably come across more harsh than I mean, but why am I supposed to care what some other persons chosen gender is, unless they happen to be close Whanau?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2020, 08:50 PM   #255
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,182
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
"I want to think of myself as <x>".
-- good on ya. No complaints and who cares what I think.

"I want you/society to treat me as <x>".
-- now it gets messy and you're actively placing demands on my behavior.

BTW - my pronouns are "Your/His Majesty". Please respect when discussing.
I think the thing that Your Majesty has overlooked is that the demands placed on us about how we behaved to each other is a thing called 'society'.

Incidentally, I feel uncomfortable using "Your Majesty" as I have always of it as a term of derision.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 16th July 2020 at 09:36 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 02:13 AM   #256
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,626
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.
People do that in Japan. "I'm A, but I'm so outgoing that I really should be O!"

They generally don't argue that they are merely biologically A, but have O "gender" or whatever the equivalent would be.

I wonder where the analogy gets us. Does it suggest that people who are trans are buying into a superstition about what it means to be the opposite sex?

Or are the non-binary people right for rejecting gender as a category, in the same way that people might reject blood type determining their personality?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 05:39 AM   #257
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,514
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I think the thing that Your Majesty has overlooked is that the demands placed on us about how we behaved to each other is a thing called 'society'.

Incidentally, I feel uncomfortable using "Your Majesty" as I have always of it as a term of derision.
Hence the comment 'it gets messy'. People wanting to do/be what they want when it doesn't interact with anyone else should be totally free (even encouraged) to do so. When it involves others then it's no longer an automatic 'go for it' answer, and must be hashed out. If I claimed to have a rare psychological condition where I didn't feel comfortable wearing clothing my work might want to have a sit-down about it before just letting me walk around the office starkers. Maybe there would be some way to accommodate, maybe there wouldn't. But it's a discussion which would have to happen and not simply end with me saying "but my personal identity is ...".
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 05:44 PM   #258
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,256
Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The term "gender" in these discussions refers to the way it it used in feminist writing and cultural anthropology and refers to everything that is commonly associated with a distinction between men and women, but does not refer to any biological difference.

[everything to do with men and women] - [biological sex] = [gender]
So just to be clear: You are claiming that doctors assign "everything to do with men and women" except biological sex to newborns?

Do you even know what doctors do, or what they learn in med school? Hint: it has to do with the biology of humans, and nothing to do with philosophizing about who should like trucks and who should like dolls.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 05:58 PM   #259
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,639
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary?
Forget about how or why. What is it to me that someone identifies as non-binary? Does it affect the quality of their work? No. Does it affect their degree of education or experience? No. Does it affect the nature of my attraction to them (if any)? No. Does it affect whether they can use the ladies' bathroom if they want to? No.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 07:46 PM   #260
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
I couldn't give a rats **** what some randoms gender is.

So why am I supposed to remember to use stupid weird pronouns around them?

This give and take stuff works both ways.

I am happy referring to a trans women as she if they aren't a ****

But i am not going to make the effort to remember who is "vis", or "xyr", or "hir", or "pers". Or "them"

For a start I have been taught through my entire life calling someone "them" is disrespectful.

This is just stupid
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 17th July 2020 at 07:47 PM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 08:28 PM   #261
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,256
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've no problem whatsoever with using they/them pronouns. It's a fairly small concession—requiring a tiny amount of mental effort—and it flows naturally from typical English usage in cases where we don't know the sex or gender of the persons of whom we speak.
Especially note the inversion here.

Person A demands that person B goes out of their way to utter special words to validate person A's identity. Person B does not care so does not comply with this demand.

arthwollipot here then puts to person B: "Why do you care how person A identifies?" Even though, obviously, person B does not comply with the demand because person B does not care. Person B caring about person A's identity means person B would comply with the demand.

Quote:
My questions remain unanswered, though. I'm getting the sense that you think I should be (a)shamed for even asking...
You should only be ashamed for asking stupid questions. Your question wasn't stupid, ergo you should obviously not be ashamed.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th July 2020, 10:19 PM   #262
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,156
I thought my hair guy was a trans woman, but now I wonder. He said years ago he might transition, he likes wigs and makeup that would earn him acceptance in the ladies' loo, but he's also sometimes just a guy. At around the time he was born, doctors knew he would need open-heart surgery as a young adult. Messing with his endocrine system was not an option.

I wonder if he's non-binary ... his pronouns are male because he has a guy's name. Does switching back between binary genders mean the person is non-binary, or just has guy days and woman days.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 04:22 AM   #263
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,763
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Forget about how or why. What is it to me that someone identifies as non-binary? Does it affect the quality of their work? No. Does it affect their degree of education or experience? No. Does it affect the nature of my attraction to them (if any)? No. Does it affect whether they can use the ladies' bathroom if they want to? No.
I don't give a flip about what someone identifies as. I'm even ok with people saying they identify as an attack helicopter -- but then I expect them to actually be that, i.e., sleep in a hangar under armed guard, 'cause we don't want military hardware lying around in some civy's home

In fact, I'm pretty much like the Orks in WH40k. Unless I'm actually planning to hump someone, they're just one of DA BOYZ. Just some of da boys is funny shaped

No demands put on them from me.

If they demand any pronouns other than "he" from me, though, that's putting demands on me. And infringing on my identity as an Ork and an ass-hat. And infringing on other people's identity is bad, m'kay?
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 04:32 AM   #264
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,763
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I thought my hair guy was a trans woman, but now I wonder. He said years ago he might transition, he likes wigs and makeup that would earn him acceptance in the ladies' loo, but he's also sometimes just a guy. At around the time he was born, doctors knew he would need open-heart surgery as a young adult. Messing with his endocrine system was not an option.

I wonder if he's non-binary ... his pronouns are male because he has a guy's name. Does switching back between binary genders mean the person is non-binary, or just has guy days and woman days.
Not everyone who puts on a dress actually identifies as a woman, though. I should know, I've done it before. In fact I grew up being dressed up as one or the other, because basically mom wanted a boy, grandma wanted a girl, and it ended up one of those rare happy compromises, where both got their wish at my expense
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 18th July 2020 at 04:34 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 05:00 AM   #265
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not everyone who puts on a dress actually identifies as a woman, though. I should know, I've done it before. In fact I grew up being dressed up as one or the other, because basically mom wanted a boy, grandma wanted a girl, and it ended up one of those rare happy compromises, where both got their wish at my expense
Do you still do it now?, and if yes what pronoun do you demand to be called?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 06:02 AM   #266
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 420
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post


In fact, I'm pretty much like the Orks in WH40k.
You reproduce, asexually, through fungal spoors?
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 06:30 AM   #267
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,763
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Do you still do it now?, and if yes what pronoun do you demand to be called?
Well, I did it on and off for lulz afterwards, but that was about it. Hence how I know that you can put on a dress without identifying as a woman even as an adult.

I don't care much about pronouns, and as I've said before I don't get the fuss over identity. Might be because of the ambiguous upbringing, I guess, but I learned pretty quickly that as far as I'm concerned, I'm just "me" in either case. I don't define myself by what I have between my legs, or what set of clothes I currently wear. I mean I know I have the equipment to pee standing, but I don't think it's THE defining feature of my identity, and I don't feel any need to do stupid stuff just to prove that I fit in either category. Anyway, if anyone prefers to call me "he" or "she", I don't really care.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 18th July 2020 at 06:32 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 11:00 AM   #268
MisAndreG
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH, I don't see a problem. In fact, those would be more like examples of why it shouldn't be that hard to figure out that something might be non-binary.

For a start, race never was binary to start with, even in the good old racist days. You had black, white, hispanic, asian, etc, all along. That's a whole lot more than "binary".

Second, it was always defined ad hoc, with pretty much no scientific basis. E.g., we call whites "caucasian" because some dude thought that the women from the caucasus were the prettiest. And blacks were for him the bottom of the list because he found them ugly. Then he met a beautiful black woman and changed his mind.

Yep, it's always been THAT much just a case of thinking with the dick instead of it actually being clearly defined different states.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Are the celts (e.g., irish) white or a different race? Well, roll the clock back like a century or so, and you'd find people arguing that they're a different race. No, really, Lovecraft's horrific realization at one point was that he has a very distant celtic ancestor, as opposed to proper pure WASP, so OMG that makes him one of those inferior races.

Some would actually classify them as "coloured", while others ranked them even lower than blacks. In fact there were racist pseudo-scientists classifying them as, I kid you not, the missing link between apes and blacks. (Because, I guess, some paper-white ginger has got to come in between a black chimp and a black human)

Are Jews a different race? Well, Adolf sure thought so, even while acknowledging in a letter that there is absolutely no genetic base for that.

Etc.

And people being somewhere in between were always a problem for those trying to treat it as a small number of distinct races. That's why you end up with 'theories' like that even a drop of black blood in your ancestry makes you black, even though you might look paper-white to someone who doesn't know about it.

So, yeah, there you go, it was always known that some people are mixed ancestry and thus somewhere in between.


Ditto for ethnicity. How do you even define ethnicity anyway? What you actually have (if you actually study anthropology at all) is some culture, with a number of subcultures, or rather a fluid spectrum of subcultures.

If you go somewhere like, say, Transylvania, you'll find that there is exactly zero biological or other hard difference between an ethnic Romanian, an ethnic Hungarian, or ethnic German, or most of the ethnic 'gypsies' that the former 3 groups look down on. Even language isn't much help there, since a lot are bilingual. All that differs is whether you've grown up in a certain group and identify with them.

And then there's the fact that each of those are a fluid spectrum. You don't even need to move a lot over geography for each of those groups to start looking rather different in customs and whatnot.
You’ve missed the point and WENT OFF on a tangent that I can’t disagree with. What I’m taking about is someone who is clearly black deciding to identify as not black and not white, or white on some days and then black on other days — this would be seen as self-evidently insane, offensive, and no one would pay it any mind beyond that.

Setting aside the non-binary idiocy, alternatively you can literally make the trans argument with respect to race, but one wouldn’t because it *******. All of this stuff from non-binary to trans to two-spirit just looks like a cult stuff or socially sanctioned madness to me.
MisAndreG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 11:10 AM   #269
MisAndreG
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, I did it on and off for lulz afterwards, but that was about it. Hence how I know that you can put on a dress without identifying as a woman even as an adult.

I don't care much about pronouns, and as I've said before I don't get the fuss over identity. Might be because of the ambiguous upbringing, I guess, but I learned pretty quickly that as far as I'm concerned, I'm just "me" in either case. I don't define myself by what I have between my legs, or what set of clothes I currently wear. I mean I know I have the equipment to pee standing, but I don't think it's THE defining feature of my identity, and I don't feel any need to do stupid stuff just to prove that I fit in either category. Anyway, if anyone prefers to call me "he" or "she", I don't really care.
One fuss over identity comes from when men want to say theyre women, be treated like women — meaning having unfettered access to women’s spaces — and then force people or gaslight them into playing along. If X male wants to be a man who wears make up, calls himself Sally, and rocks dresses that’s fine. If X male wants to force people and society to think he’s actually a women that’s a problem.

Another source of the fuss is with “transing” or “theybie” children.
MisAndreG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 11:18 AM   #270
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,386
Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
One fuss over identity comes from when men want to say theyre women, be treated like women — meaning having unfettered access to women’s spaces — and then force people or gaslight them into playing along. If X male wants to be a man who wears make up, calls himself Sally, and rocks dresses that’s fine. If X male wants to force people and society to think he’s actually a women that’s a problem.

Another source of the fuss is with “transing” or “theybie” children.
Wasn't there a case a while ago of a trans-woman suing a beauty parlour for refusing to wax their balls? If we insist that trans-women are women in all cases, and try to enforce it like we have with refusing service to somebody based on race, there are going to be some rough old edge cases.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 12:00 PM   #271
Olmstead
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 132
In my opinion, there are two separate discussions that are happening. One is the discussion on the rights of transgendered people. The other is the discussion on whether a transgendered person's gender objectively differs from their sex. And many people on both sides seem to think that one issue somehow depends on the other. Why?

Even the most contentious issues, like sports and bathrooms or whatever, can be considered in practical terms, completely separate from questions about gender.

If someone developed a procedure that could switch a person's chromosomes around and, I don't know, make their bodies produce the right hormones, would anything actually change? Why? And if nothing would change, why does it matter whether a transgendered person was objectively born in the wrong body?
Olmstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 03:11 PM   #272
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,763
Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
You’ve missed the point and WENT OFF on a tangent that I can’t disagree with. What I’m taking about is someone who is clearly black deciding to identify as not black and not white, or white on some days and then black on other days — this would be seen as self-evidently insane, offensive, and no one would pay it any mind beyond that.
And my point is that race is a bad example if you want to make the case that things are binary. Because even with what you wrote above,

1. it's not as simple as whether someone is black or non-black, nor a historical precedent for it being that clearly divided into black or non-black. AGAIN, the fact that some people are somewhere in between, and could look like either or really in between, was known all along. In fact it is the whole POINT of miscegenation laws back in the day, under which you could be classified as black even if you look paper-white.

Or even nowadays, just ask Trevor Noah, who was born to mixed parents in South Africa. For the whites he was black, for the black he wasn't black enough, so he got considered something else by both. How's that for non-binary?

But even more importantly...

2. for about 99% of the population, exactly when would it matter to you whether someone is black or white? Exactly when would it even come up in conversation? Do you actually use different pronouns for blacks and for whites? Segregated bathrooms? Or what? Exactly when would it even come up, much less matter, whether that dude identifies as white, black, hispanic, Eskimo, or even Romulan?

So if the point was whether it's somehow right to make a fuss over whether someone male identifies as female or as neither, then your analogy fails right there. It's not an analogy because the relevant attribute isn't shared. In fact, it's outright negated: you SHOULDN'T care about whether someone is black or white.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 04:08 PM   #273
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,387
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does it affect whether they can use the ladies' bathroom if they want to? No.
Why not?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 04:12 PM   #274
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,386
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
In my opinion, there are two separate discussions that are happening. One is the discussion on the rights of transgendered people. The other is the discussion on whether a transgendered person's gender objectively differs from their sex. And many people on both sides seem to think that one issue somehow depends on the other. Why?
I think that if one is going to claim that "trans-women are women", and on that basis have all the rights that go with being a non-trans woman then the existence of this ineffable woman essence that you possess is the justification for the rights. I might be wrong, but I think most people on the anti-side see the two issues as less connected. I certainly do. Even if there was such an essence of woman, I don't think a trans-woman shot-putter should be competing as a woman in the Olympics.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 05:13 PM   #275
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,156
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not everyone who puts on a dress actually identifies as a woman, though. I should know, I've done it before. In fact I grew up being dressed up as one or the other, because basically mom wanted a boy, grandma wanted a girl, and it ended up one of those rare happy compromises, where both got their wish at my expense
Came upon a snapshot of my father wearing a dress but I should note he was a toddler and it was the 1920s.

According to The Vintage News, gender-specific clothing and hair styles were not a big deal in Victorian England and other contemporaneous cultures.

Quote:
Not to get confused, the patriarch system was the norm in the Victorian era and gender roles were extremely polarized. However, young children were left out of the equation. According to most accounts, pictures, and photos, up until the age of seven, gender was apparently not something that parents paid much attention to. The clothes worn by boys and girls were nearly identical, indistinguishable from one another.
I don't know how accurate it is that gender "was not something that parents paid much attention to," but it does interest me that the 20th century came to be the era where strong delineations were placed on what little girls wore vs. little boys.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 06:15 PM   #276
MisAndreG
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
And my point is that race is a bad example if you want to make the case that things are binary. Because even with what you wrote above,

1. it's not as simple as whether someone is black or non-black, nor a historical precedent for it being that clearly divided into black or non-black. AGAIN, the fact that some people are somewhere in between, and could look like either or really in between, was known all along. In fact it is the whole POINT of miscegenation laws back in the day, under which you could be classified as black even if you look paper-white.

Or even nowadays, just ask Trevor Noah, who was born to mixed parents in South Africa. For the whites he was black, for the black he wasn't black enough, so he got considered something else by both. How's that for non-binary?

But even more importantly...

2. for about 99% of the population, exactly when would it matter to you whether someone is black or white? Exactly when would it even come up in conversation? Do you actually use different pronouns for blacks and for whites? Segregated bathrooms? Or what? Exactly when would it even come up, much less matter, whether that dude identifies as white, black, hispanic, Eskimo, or even Romulan?

So if the point was whether it's somehow right to make a fuss over whether someone male identifies as female or as neither, then your analogy fails right there. It's not an analogy because the relevant attribute isn't shared. In fact, it's outright negated: you SHOULDN'T care about whether someone is black or white.
Well, I’m not totally convinced it is a failed analogy because the attributes are analogous in one important way - your ethnicity or race is a fixed attribute that you can’t really change, just like your sex. take Noah, the man is clearly black, and it didn’t make a difference what ideological regime was in place that considered him not black enough or white enough or whatever. He is a black man. Incidentally Rashida Jones would have been a better example for you to use as she is black but white passing but w/e. Mixed race people - like moi and jones - can be complicated I guess, maybe you have a point there and the analogy does break down in those cases. the analogy is messy, a lot of them are, but I think you got what I was getting at, no? One can’t really change sex or negate it no more than I can become a white female or a non identity, regardless of what an ideological paradigm says that I can

As for #2 I see what you’re get at. But tends to matter to people in the group - like, look at Rachel dolezal she is a white women who claims to be transracial Black and that **** is offensive to black people for a bunch or reasons, including how she used her transracial identity taking positions that should have gone to ados. I hope I don’t have to explain why. Moreover it’s just not true - she is not black. (Socially, meaning how you are treated in public by society by race shouldn’t matter, nor politically, meaning the law shouldn’t discriminate on race and treat everyone as individuals)

so I’m perfectly content with making a fuss about people who play pretend they’re something they’re not, especially if they want to use the power of the state to enforce their nonsense on everyone, or inculcate children who have psychosocial issues surrounding identity in their beliefs, or take up space in places we’ve designated for historically marginalized identity groups especially when they’re from the dominant groups

Apologies if I’m a tad incoherent I’m very tired atm. I hope you got the gist of what I’m trying to say.

Last edited by MisAndreG; 18th July 2020 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Typo
MisAndreG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 07:11 PM   #277
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 5,387
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
In my opinion, there are two separate discussions that are happening. One is the discussion on the rights of transgendered NON-BINARY people. The other is the discussion on whether a transgendered NON-BINARY person's gender objectively differs from their sex.
Just tryna stay on topic.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 03:29 AM   #278
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,395
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't know how accurate it is that gender "was not something that parents paid much attention to," but it does interest me that the 20th century came to be the era where strong delineations were placed on what little girls wore vs. little boys.
It's certainly true that young boys and girls would basically wear what we would think of as dresses, but there was some attention paid to gender. For example, pink was for boys and blue was for girls. Pink was thought of as a "strong" colour, suitable for boys, and blue was weaker and therefore for girls. It was only in the early 20th century (I'm thinking around the late 10s/early 20s, but I'm going from memory here) that the colours switched because a prominent and popular figure of the time (a princess, IIRC but, again, don't quote me on that) dressed her children that way.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 04:35 AM   #279
LlamaDrama
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 23
I know four non-binary people in real life. Here's my entirely non-scientific assessment of each one of them:

NB1: Uber hipster. Seems to be entirely heterosexual female in everything other than protesting too much about pronouns on Twitter. The only NB concession is their haircut.

NB2: Partner of NB1, uber trendy hipster, heterosexual male in every sense, has been known to wear a dress at a couple of parties.

NB3: Until recently she was a perfectly normal heterosexual female. Suffered some health and mental issues in the last couple of years, and since then has come out as trans, NB, queer, GNC, and changed her name so many times in that period that I have no idea what to call them any more. Has now settled for a female name and shaved head, and I have not talked to her since January, so i have no idea what she identifies as these days.

NB4: Heterosexual Female until 2 years ago. Also had serious mental and health issues, and came out recently. Is the most steady of all 4 in their identity, but every time I see them they present as a female with short hair. They had hinted at serious abuse as children, and I suspect deep hatred of their own female shape from some conversations we've had.

What does it all mean? I suspect that there's a trend here, particularly with the women. Abuse, internalised misogyny, mental problems. Can't be a coincidence. The first two are bored heteros who want to be more interesting than they really are.

Last edited by LlamaDrama; 19th July 2020 at 05:30 AM.
LlamaDrama is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 05:06 AM   #280
LlamaDrama
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You judge people based on their gender presentation? In what ways do you consider someone who presents as a woman different from someone who presents as a man from someone who presents ambiguously? What judgements do you make on that basis?
I judge them on whether I would like to have sexual intercourse with them. There are many other assumptions, some unfair, but they tend to work on average.
LlamaDrama is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:55 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.