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Old 19th July 2020, 07:49 AM   #281
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Well, Iím not totally convinced it is a failed analogy because the attributes are analogous in one important way - your ethnicity or race is a fixed attribute that you canít really change, just like your sex. take Noah, the man is clearly black, and it didnít make a difference what ideological regime was in place that considered him not black enough or white enough or whatever. He is a black man. Incidentally Rashida Jones would have been a better example for you to use as she is black but white passing but w/e. Mixed race people - like moi and jones - can be complicated I guess, maybe you have a point there and the analogy does break down in those cases. the analogy is messy, a lot of them are, but I think you got what I was getting at, no? One canít really change sex or negate it no more than I can become a white female or a non identity, regardless of what an ideological paradigm says that I can
No. What you're saying there is that whatever YOUR criteria are, however YOU judge a person's race, that's the one holy pronouncement that determines it. More infallible than the Pope, even.

If it's YOUR decreeing that some guy is 100% in the black category, then it doesn't matter if some 100 million actual Bantu blacks think he's a half-breed. If YOU say it's binary, then apparently that settles it, there are no shades. You're THAT important, apparently.

Sorry, that's just flippin' stupid and delusional.

Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
As for #2 I see what youíre get at. But tends to matter to people in the group - like, look at Rachel dolezal she is a white women who claims to be transracial Black and that **** is offensive to black people for a bunch or reasons, including how she used her transracial identity taking positions that should have gone to ados. I hope I donít have to explain why. Moreover itís just not true - she is not black. (Socially, meaning how you are treated in public by society by race shouldnít matter, nor politically, meaning the law shouldnít discriminate on race and treat everyone as individuals)
Except AGAIN, for the fact that a mere century ago someone even whiter than Rachel Anne Dolezal could actually be classified as black, if she had any blacks in her ancestry. So again, what you're saying is just that if YOU pronounce her to be 100% in one category, then that's it, that's what settles it definitively, that's all the test we need.

And again, that's just flippin' stupid and delusional.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:13 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why not?
On the one hand, the rules for binary restrooms don't have anything to say about nonbinary self-identifiers. Whatever affects their access, it won't be their self-identification.

On the other hand, nihilism and radical choice: Ultimately, the only things that affect whether they can use the lady's bathroom is their own will to do so and their power to impose their will on the world around them.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:25 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So just to be clear: You are claiming that doctors assign "everything to do with men and women" except biological sex to newborns?
There is a difference between "a gender" and the general concept of "gender". Just like there is a difference between "a sex" and the general concept of "sex". I was providing a definition of the general concept of "gender". Doctors assign "a gender" (boy xor girl) to a newborn, basing this on eir sex (male or female). This assignment will have lasting consequences for the child, mostly bureaucratic ones. An M or F on one's birth certificate is not in itself a biological fact, even if it is based on one.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:56 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the one hand, the rules for binary restrooms don't have anything to say about nonbinary self-identifiers. Whatever affects their access, it won't be their self-identification.
I'd say this depends largely on whose rules you're looking at.


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Old 19th July 2020, 10:00 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd say this depends largely on whose rules you're looking at.
I would say it's tautological. If the rules account for nonbinary identification, then it's not a binary restroom.
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:26 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I would say it's tautological. If the rules account for nonbinary identification, then it's not a binary restroom.
Again, we'd have to look at the specific policies or laws in place. Some of them explicitly segregate bathrooms by gender rather than sex, others vice-versa. Any policy which makes subjective sense of self the fundamental criterion for bathroom use would have to allow non-binary persons into either room, AFAICT (IMO YMMV).
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Old 19th July 2020, 12:55 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is a difference between "a gender" and the general concept of "gender". Just like there is a difference between "a sex" and the general concept of "sex". I was providing a definition of the general concept of "gender". Doctors assign "a gender" (boy xor girl) to a newborn, basing this on eir sex (male or female). This assignment will have lasting consequences for the child, mostly bureaucratic ones. An M or F on one's birth certificate is not in itself a biological fact, even if it is based on one.
By that logic astronomers assign zodiac signs to people, because they observe the stars and write down their observations. Of course, astronomers do not assign zodiac signs to people, astronomers merely observe and categorize physical reality in the night sky. The whole assigning zodiac signs and ascribing socio-cultural phenomena to those zodiac signs is what other people do by extrapolating from what astronomers observe.

Similarly, doctors do not assign gender to newborns, they merely observe and write down newborns' sex. The whole assigning genders to those observations of sex is what other people do by extrapolating what doctors observe. Doctors observe sex, in the past in some very rare cases (in DSD people) doctors would "assign" sex when sex couldn't be determined by observation, but even that doesn't happen anymore. Doctors do not assign gender.

Claiming that a doctor assigned your gender because they observed and wrote down your sex is the same as claiming that an astronomer assigned your zodiac sign because they observed and wrote down the observable stars in the night sky.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:38 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This will probably come across more harsh than I mean, but why am I supposed to care what some other persons chosen gender is, unless they happen to be close Whanau?
This is exactly it. You're not. Except inasmuch as you use the appropriate pronouns.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:42 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
In my opinion, there are two separate discussions that are happening. One is the discussion on the rights of transgendered people. The other is the discussion on whether a transgendered person's gender objectively differs from their sex. And many people on both sides seem to think that one issue somehow depends on the other. Why?

Even the most contentious issues, like sports and bathrooms or whatever, can be considered in practical terms, completely separate from questions about gender.

If someone developed a procedure that could switch a person's chromosomes around and, I don't know, make their bodies produce the right hormones, would anything actually change? Why? And if nothing would change, why does it matter whether a transgendered person was objectively born in the wrong body?
Again, this may seem like nitpicking, but it's not - the word is "transgender" not "transgendered". The latter makes it seem like it is something that has happened to someone, rather than something that they are.

Just wanted to point that out before returning to the topic of nonbinariness.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:45 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I couldn't give a rats **** what some randoms gender is.

So why am I supposed to remember to use stupid weird pronouns around them?
Very few - in fact, a vanishingly small number - of people are going to ask you to.

This give and take stuff works both ways.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I am happy referring to a trans women as she if they aren't a ****

But i am not going to make the effort to remember who is "vis", or "xyr", or "hir", or "pers". Or "them"

For a start I have been taught through my entire life calling someone "them" is disrespectful.
It's time to start unlearning that. "They/them" is the preferred pronoun for the vast majority of nonbinary people. The vast majority. And for those who do prefer a nonstandard pronoun, use they/them anyway. They will appreciate that you at least made an effort.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This is just stupid
It's not. It's simple human respect and courtesy.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:23 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not. It's simple human respect and courtesy.
Simple respect and courtesy doesn't mean to call people whatever they want to be called.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:30 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Claiming that a doctor assigned your gender because they observed and wrote down your sex is the same as claiming that an astronomer assigned your zodiac sign because they observed and wrote down the observable stars in the night sky.
It is not quite the same, as a person's zodiac sign isn't something that is registered on their birth certificate. If a doctor just wrote down a newborn's sex in a medical record with no other bureaucratic consequences you could indeed claim they were not "assiging a gender".
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:48 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It is not quite the same, as a person's zodiac sign isn't something that is registered on their birth certificate. If a doctor just wrote down a newborn's sex in a medical record with no other bureaucratic consequences you could indeed claim they were not "assiging a gender".
Once again: they are observing the sex, not assigning it.
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Old 20th July 2020, 09:50 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is a difference between "a gender" and the general concept of "gender". Just like there is a difference between "a sex" and the general concept of "sex". I was providing a definition of the general concept of "gender". Doctors assign "a gender" (boy xor girl) to a newborn, basing this on eir sex (male or female). This assignment will have lasting consequences for the child, mostly bureaucratic ones. An M or F on one's birth certificate is not in itself a biological fact, even if it is based on one.
There are actually very few bureaucratic consequences for the sex listed on birth certificates. Most of what you refer to gender arises completely independently of what's on the birth certificate. Even if you want to argue that children are socialized into their gender roles by society (ie, claim that there are no innate behavioral differences between the sexes), the birth certificate is still irrelevant to that for most things. Seriously, how many parents do you think have to consult their child's birth certificate in order to know what sex their child is?

This "doctors assign gender" claim is politically correct dogmatic nonsense, and isn't even internally consistent.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:08 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Well, Iím not totally convinced it is a failed analogy because the attributes are analogous in one important way - your ethnicity or race is a fixed attribute that you canít really change, just like your sex.
Nope, just the opposite in fact. ďRaceĒ is meaningless in a biological sense. Rather, itís a cultural construct consisting of learned behaviors. Of course, some here would argue that the same is true of gender, so maybe they are not all that different after all.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is a difference between "a gender" and the general concept of "gender". Just like there is a difference between "a sex" and the general concept of "sex". I was providing a definition of the general concept of "gender". Doctors assign "a gender" (boy xor girl) to a newborn, basing this on eir sex (male or female). This assignment will have lasting consequences for the child, mostly bureaucratic ones. An M or F on one's birth certificate is not in itself a biological fact, even if it is based on one.
If we are going to differentiate between sex and gender, it seems more likely the doctor is merely identifying the sex of the child than ďassigning it a genderĒ. Any reference to gender in this context is most likely a holdover from when the terms were viewed as synonymous.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:41 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, this may seem like nitpicking, but it's not - the word is "transgender" not "transgendered". The latter makes it seem like it is something that has happened to someone, rather than something that they are.

Just wanted to point that out before returning to the topic of nonbinariness.
In this video 'Trans is not a thing you are, it's a thing you do', Arty Morty argues that "it makes a lot more sense, and it would eliminate a lot of confusion among young people, to frame transsexualism as an action one takes, rather than an innate, immutable identity that one discovers about oneself."

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I AGREE


It is very far from scientifically established that being transgender is something that you simply are. Morty suggests, instead, that it is something that you do in an attempt to resolve troubling psychological issues.

Furthermore, the huge and unprecedented explosion of teenage girls deciding they're trans indicates, at least in their case, that it can be driven by psychological and social processes rather than being something innate within us.
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Old 20th July 2020, 01:59 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Just shooting the **** here:


in order to consider oneself as "non-binary", one would probably had to grow up in an environment that has some very strong norms about gender roles and characteristics to begin with: it's hard to fall outside a norm that is wishy-washy to begin with.
My second eldest kid decided to not want to be defined by a gender, they take hormones to keep that neutral balance.
The family environment was very much be who you want to be, there were no norms at all.

As a kid myself I washed dolls hair in the bath etc, so my parents weren't doing norms either.
EDIT:
sorry, il go read the thread now.

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Old 20th July 2020, 02:16 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Once again: they are observing the sex, not assigning it.
I think it might be fair to say that gender is assigned by one's parents and immediate social circle over the first few years of life.

From the relevant wiki:
Quote:
After age three, core gender identity is extremely difficult to change, and attempts to reassign it can result in gender dysphoria. Gender identity refinement extends into the fourth to sixth years of age, and continues into young adulthood.

Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and preschoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of 5–7 years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity," fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat.
(Internal citations omitted)
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:23 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Such as?
Such as...

Asking another person if they have a spare tampon because you've had an unexpected "visitor".
Asking another person in the changing room for help undoing the back of a dress.
Deciding whether or not it would be socially acceptable for you to unzip and pee into the bushes with them close enough to see your wedding tackle.
Figuring our whether it's a good idea to talk about poop and farts with that person


I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:24 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Sure, but the reason why a child's sex is recorded is for the purposes of gender
Also because it's medically relevant for pretty much the entirety of their lives. And because there is a difference in the necessary precautions taken by an adult when changing the diapers of a male baby; infants without penises very rarely pee in their parent's faces.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:30 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Such as...

Asking another person if they have a spare tampon because you've had an unexpected "visitor".
Asking another person in the changing room for help undoing the back of a dress.
Deciding whether or not it would be socially acceptable for you to unzip and pee into the bushes with them close enough to see your wedding tackle.
Figuring our whether it's a good idea to talk about poop and farts with that person


I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture.
I mean, asking a transwoman if she has a tampon is just bigoted and abusive. You're basically reminding her that she's not a fully operational battle station or whatever. That's really insensitive and transphobic. You really need to stop assuming people have uteruses just because they look like cisnormative women.

The rest of your list is just plain sexism. You shouldn't care about the sex or gender or attack helicopter maintenance plan of the people fiddling with your dress or looking at your wedding tackle.

/sarcasm

More seriously, why do we have a social injunction against letting fart and poop talk cross the cisgender line?

Would it be bigoted for a woman to not want to talk about farts with a transman who presented as a man?

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Old 20th July 2020, 02:42 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And you erasing their identity is not on.
If it's truly their identity, nobody else can "erase' is. On the other hand, nobody has any obligation to care about what someone else identifies as.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For a start, the appropriate term is "trans man" not "transman" - some people will get remarkably upset about that, so it is something you should take into consideration. And secondly, yes, the gender pay gap is one of those things that needs serious consideration in this "new" (not really) gender paradigm. Currently, it is not at all clear.
That's a remarkably silly thing to get bent out of shape about. I mean, really? Whether or not there's a space is something that needs to be considered so that people don't get upset?

And at the risk of sounding prickly... I'd really rather like to see the CURRENT pay gap adequately addressed before we start trying to add new special niches of pay gap into the mix.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:43 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You mean police officers, fire fighters and pilots, right?
FYI: In the US Air Force, all enlisted folks start out as "Airman", regardless of what they identify as.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:44 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, I will be charitable and assume that you are merely ignorant of the way gendered job descriptions are disrespectful of nonbinary people, rather than malicious.
As a female person of the human persuasion, I can't decide whether to laugh or to cry at this statement.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:47 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
How would anyone know what it's like to be their biological sex, for that matter? You can't distinguish between two sensory inputs if you can't experience at least one of them in isolation from the other. Unless you can change your sex you have no means to distinguish "these are the feelings that arise from being of sex A" from all feelings from other causes.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure I can distinguish the feeling of a happy clitoris, an irritated nipple, or uterine cramps and appropriate designate them as sensory inputs unique to being a female human, even if I've never experienced blue balls or ejaculation.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:52 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's up to every person to decide for themselves what it is like.
There are a lot of female humans out here who happen to have a lived experience that includes some common themes, and those common themes tend to be important to us as female humans.

If it's simply up to everyone to decide what gender they feel like, and not a whit of common ground to go on, then I, as a female human, think that's likely to set the goals of other female humans back by several decades.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:55 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
At least partially. It is likely to be influenced by external factors such as the environment in which a person was raised. It seems likely to me that people who are raised in an environment where the gender binary is not strongly emphasised will have a less strong personal idea of what gender is.
It "seems" to you? Are you just hypothesizing here?

I was raised in a household with rather lax gender roles. I played with legos and blocks and tinker toys and matchbox cars far more than I played with dolls. I hung out with boys and climbed trees and played cowboys and indians and tried to make bows and arrows from sticks and string. We wrestled and fought and ran and called each other names, and made jokes about boogers and poop and farts. I detest pink, and I will choose trousers over skirts any day of the week.

But I have a rather clear understanding of my sex, as well as how the perception of my sex by other people (which is pretty much what gender is) has affected the course of my life, the barriers it has presented, and the challenges yet to overcome.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:21 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
FYI: In the US Air Force, all enlisted folks start out as "Airman", regardless of what they identify as.
Not a particular fan of this practice, even after being around the USAF for nearly three decades. Actually, I sort of envy the Army for having more neutral terms.

My point, though, was merely that it doesn't demean firemen and policemen and postmen and congressmen to use such labels without spaces. Doesn't make them any less human or worthy of respect.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:34 PM   #310
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I've just read the first couple of pages, but some of you (D4m10n, Arthwollipot), seem to be defining non-binary gender in a way that could also be expressed as absence of gender.

So, instead of trying to imagine how that non-binary gender is like, we could just try to imagine how it is like if we render the concept of gender completely devoid of any information.

It looks more like a non category, and indistinguishable from what "human being" already defines, to me.
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Old 20th July 2020, 04:35 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
I've just read the first couple of pages, but some of you (D4m10n, Arthwollipot), seem to be defining non-binary gender in a way that could also be expressed as absence of gender.

So, instead of trying to imagine how that non-binary gender is like, we could just try to imagine how it is like if we render the concept of gender completely devoid of any information.

It looks more like a non category, and indistinguishable from what "human being" already defines, to me.
Indeed. Non-binary pretty much describes everyone. Very few people are comfortable with all the expectations society puts on them simply for being born male or female.
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:28 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are actually very few bureaucratic consequences for the sex listed on birth certificates.
There were quite a few until very recently; such as who one is allowed to marry.

Quote:
Most of what you refer to gender arises completely independently of what's on the birth certificate.
Absolutely!

Quote:
the birth certificate is still irrelevant to that for most things.
Which is why registering sex on birth certificates is unnecessary.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:16 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Non-binary pretty much describes everyone. Very few people are comfortable with all the expectations society puts on them simply for being born male or female.
If "non-binary person" includes nearly everyone, the neologism isn't exactly doing a lot of work.

At the beginning of the thread I asked what it means to say non-binary folks are "valid and real" and I assumed that the answer would prove to be found in some set of observables, at least wrt "real" if not "valid."
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:51 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Which is why registering sex on birth certificates is unnecessary.
Whether it is necessary or not wasnít the question here. You claimed doctors assign gender. That is self-contradictory nonsense, and you have failed to defend it with any semblance of coherence.
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Old 21st July 2020, 07:44 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
No. What you're saying there is that whatever YOUR criteria are, however YOU judge a person's race, that's the one holy pronouncement that determines it. More infallible than the Pope, even.

If it's YOUR decreeing that some guy is 100% in the black category, then it doesn't matter if some 100 million actual Bantu blacks think he's a half-breed. If YOU say it's binary, then apparently that settles it, there are no shades. You're THAT important, apparently.

Sorry, that's just flippin' stupid and delusional.



Except AGAIN, for the fact that a mere century ago someone even whiter than Rachel Anne Dolezal could actually be classified as black, if she had any blacks in her ancestry. So again, what you're saying is just that if YOU pronounce her to be 100% in one category, then that's it, that's what settles it definitively, that's all the test we need.

And again, that's just flippin' stupid and delusional.
Jesus Christ. One of the things Iím saying is I donít care about what dumb ass ideological paradigm is in place that would class someone like Noah ďhalf breedĒ or dolezal black, if you want to take the most uncharitable interpretation of that and say itís MEEEEEE and MYYYYY criteria lol and call what Iím saying delusional and stupid thatís on you. But Iím done here.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:16 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Describe how it feels to have your blood type. Distinguish those feelings from how people with different blood types feel from having their blood types. Can you do it? The point is that if you have always experienced a state, for every instant of your existence, without ever having that state change or be switched off, you cannot distinguish which feelings you have are caused by that state.
This is absurd. You're essentially saying that the only people who can truly know what it's like to be a woman are males.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:19 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
True-- but that suggests that what we think is caused by biology (or physics or chemistry) is actually created by social interaction. A male person who crashed on a desert island as an infant and grew up totally isolated from other humans might have an entirely different experience of being male as opposed to males surrounded by other males and females.

We won't know unless we can conduct some extremely unethical and probably physically gruesome experiments.
Um... I'm going to say that such a person might have a different concept of what it is to be a man, which includes all of the societal baggage that comes along with gender roles and how people treat you based on what they perceive your sex to be. But I would bet that if you put him in a room with other males of the human species, they'd have a fair bit of common experiences related to morning wood, ejaculation, itchy balls, etc.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:21 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is absurd. You're essentially saying that the only people who can truly know what it's like to be a woman are males.
No, I'm not. That's an exceptionally ridiculous misinterpretation of what I clearly said: nobody can know what it's like to be their own sex because they cannot experience that in isolation from all other characteristics and inputs. I'm saying neither males nor females know what it feels like to be males or females, as distinguished from being everything else that they are as well.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:25 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Whipping out you primary sex characteristics can get you into a bit of legal trouble, even in the West.
People generally don't know your sex; they infer it from your gender presentation.
Okay, let's grant this as true. What do you think falls under the heading of gender presentation?

Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
You can change sex. Though one cannot go from one end of the spectrum of sex all the way over to the other side.
No, you cannot change your sex. You can change the appearance of secondary sex characteristics, and you can surgically create things that mimic the look of genitalia. You can even surgically remove some primary sex organs. But you cannot actually change sex. A surgically created vagina is not the same thing as a real vagina, and it doesn't create ovaries and a uterus. A surgically created penis is not the same thing as a real penis, and it doesn't create testes that make sperm.

A person who implants horns into the top of their head doesn't actually "have horns". They have artificial things that look like horns stuck onto their skull, but they aren't actually horns. Saline implants aren't real boobs. A person who spends two hours a day in a tanning bed looks darker, but they haven't altered the natural level of melanin in their skin cells by one iota.
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Old 21st July 2020, 09:32 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
They assign gender, based on an observation of sex.

One could imagine a hypothetical society where gender is assigned based on an observation of a coin toss. In such a society there would be the genders of "heads" and "tails".
There's this persistent narrative that 'gender' is about ow a person feels on the inside... which makes it completely unfalsifiable, untestable, and nothing but an article of faith.

Gender isn't what a person feels like on the inside. Gender identity might be, if you assume that there's an innate essence that is completely separate from the body and magically confers a mystical property of "womanhood" or "manhood" that is also magically divorced from gender roles and societal norms of behavior.

Gender, in actuality, is the sex that other people assume you to be on a combination of attributes. Some of those attributes are socially defined - dress, comportment, behavior. But a LOT of those attributes are not socially defined, and are a direct result of the visible aspects of sex-linked physical characteristics: boobs, height, hand and foot size, adam's apple, pitch of voice, shape of jaw line, heaviness of brow ridge, shape of torso, shape of hips, shape of thighs.

If you put Dwayne Johnson in a ball gown, with professionally done make-up, and a top tier wig, and he practices walking in heels for months to get it down perfectly... Nobody is going to mistake him for a female. Every single part of his physicality oozes his sex. And every single person who sees him will assume that he is a man. They might assume he's a drag queen, but he will still be perceived as a man.

Wishing for other people to see you in a way that is different from how you actually look is just that: wishing. You cannot obligate other people's perception of reality to change based on your desires.
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