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Old 21st July 2020, 09:34 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.
I identify as an Aries, even though I'm actually a Taurus. The astrological descriptions of Aries really fit my personality better.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:10 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Say that you are an American. I don't know if this is true, but this is just an example. I keep referring to you as a Canadian, and asking you how life is in Canada. You keep insisting that you are American, not Canadian, but I don't appear to be listening. When you press me on it, I tell you that America doesn't exist. How much of this would you take before you started to get annoyed?
On the other hand... let's say that people keep referring to you as a white person and asking you how life is in the 'burbs. You keep insisting you're a black man and they don't appear to be listening because you are pasty white with straight blond hair and blue eyes. They all seem shocked that you get annoyed by them assuming that you're a white person when you truly feel like a black guy on the inside. It might not stop you from being annoyed... but on the other hand, you're asking people to accept your feeling of being a black person over the evidence of their own eyes. You're asking other people to redefine their entire understanding of what a black person is, so that it fits with your feelings. In effect, you're asking everyone else, including people who are black by nature, to accept you as a black person regardless of whether you have the biological characteristics of a black person, and regardless of whether you've had any of the lived experience of a black person. In addition, because you identify as a black person, you demand that you have access to scholarships for black people and be allowed to take part in programs intended to help black people overcome discrimination and cultural barriers.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:10 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.
I'm not sure that drawing an analogy between gender identity and superstitions is where you want to take this.

I am, however, open to arguments that gender identity is a superstitious social construct that people are free to believe or dismiss for themselves. I think it's probably a mistake to look at it that way, but if there's an argument in favor I'd at least like to see it before making up my mind.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:13 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Rather than responding directly to anybody in particular at this point (which I feel would be a fruitless endeavour), I would simply ask you: why do you care? What is it to you how or why someone identifies as nonbinary? Just use the damn pronouns and let people be who they want to be. That's it. It's that simple.
I don't care, in so far as it's how they feel about themselves.

I do care, however, when their perception of themselves confers an obligation on me.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:19 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Most of which are used by a vanishingly small number of people. Few nonbinary people would object if you used they/them. If in doubt, ask.

I can't believe that this is still a thing.
Given that 99.9% of the population are visibly going to be perceived as either male or female, and will prefer to be referred to as she or he in a way that matches their physicality... I'm more inclined to say that if someone feels that they do not conform to their physicality they should volunteer their preferred pronouns, and do so without attitude. It makes no sense that I should be obligated to ask everyone what their pronouns should be when it's entirely obvious nearly all the time.

I get that it's supposed to be respectful to nonconforming people to ask their preference. What often gets overlooked (or dismissed) is that it's also disrespectful and someone insulting to ask for a pronoun if that person isn't nonconforming. If a person is female and identifies as a woman, and someone asks "Do you prefer he or she?" that's tantamount to telling her that she is unfeminine and essentially ugly. It's up there with asking a fat women when her due-date is.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:29 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
In fact, I'm pretty much like the Orks in WH40k. Unless I'm actually planning to hump someone, they're just one of DA BOYZ. Just some of da boys is funny shaped
Granted all my info is second hand from my spouse... but I thought Orks were fungi and didn't have sex?
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:38 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
In my opinion, there are two separate discussions that are happening. One is the discussion on the rights of transgendered people. The other is the discussion on whether a transgendered person's gender objectively differs from their sex. And many people on both sides seem to think that one issue somehow depends on the other. Why?
Because they are related. The rights that transgender people (more specifically transwomen), are ones that obligate other people to grant them access to services and programs designed for females. Services that grant protection and safety, that provide sex-segregation where appropriate, and programs designed to overcome sex-discrimination that presents challenges to females.

The right to not be fired for one's gender presentation? Yes, I'm on board. The right to obligate other people to provide services to a person as their identified gender regardless of their presentation and/or genitalia? That gets a lot fuzzier. The right to treat misgendering or deadnaming as hate speech on par with racial slurs and calls for genocide? No, not so much.
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:54 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, this may seem like nitpicking, but it's not - the word is "transgender" not "transgendered". The latter makes it seem like it is something that has happened to someone, rather than something that they are.

Just wanted to point that out before returning to the topic of nonbinariness.
This is an interesting point. In almost every other aspect of life, we take pains to make sure that we are NOT defining what a person is. In all other aspects, we recognize that a person is a complex, multifaceted individual who is the sum of their attributes and experiences and character, and that no single label defines them as a monolithic identity.

But when it comes to gender, we're being asked to turn right back around, and make that single element of them as a person the entirety of their identity.

And then there's common sense. I'm an epileptic. It's not the only thing I am, but trying to insist that people call me a "person with epilepsy" is frankly dumb. Most of the time, my epilepsy is completely irrelevant. The only impact it has on day to day life is that my phone alarm goes off in the evening so I don't forget to take my anti-seziure meds. Oh, and I probably won't do a month-long camping trip in the outback or go sky-diving, and I don't much care for nightclubs with loud music and flashy lights that are likely triggers of a seizure.

But when it's relevant, it's perfectly acceptable and straight up common sense that I be referred to as "an epileptic".
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Old 21st July 2020, 10:56 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's time to start unlearning that. "They/them" is the preferred pronoun for the vast majority of nonbinary people. The vast majority. And for those who do prefer a nonstandard pronoun, use they/them anyway. They will appreciate that you at least made an effort.
It's the preferred pronoun of a vast majority of an extreme minority of people. It's strongly not preferred by the vast majority of an extreme majority of people.

If I'm asked to use special pronouns, and it isn't going to cause confusion or introduce needlessly complicated semantics, I'll happily do so. But I'm not going to spurn the preferences of 99% of the people out there in order to accommodate a very few people.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:00 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nope, just the opposite in fact. “Race” is meaningless in a biological sense. Rather, it’s a cultural construct consisting of learned behaviors. Of course, some here would argue that the same is true of gender, so maybe they are not all that different after all.
Race is largely irrelevant in terms of biology... but there are anthropological identifiers that are strongly associated with what we view as race. Some are superficial - skin tone, epicanthic folds, hair color, etc. But others are a bit more complex, like the relationship between leg length and torso length, type of hair and how to best keep it healthy, skin care needs, etc.

None of that should have any bearing at all on how people are treated in society, and none of it should have any bearing on employment or rights or assumptions made about others.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:02 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Furthermore, the huge and unprecedented explosion of teenage girls deciding they're trans indicates, at least in their case, that it can be driven by psychological and social processes rather than being something innate within us.
You know, if i were a teenager in today's society, with the kind of career aspirations that I have, and with a good understanding of the innate sexism and gender bias in my society... I might very well decide that life would be easier and overall better if I were accepted as a man.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:05 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
More seriously, why do we have a social injunction against letting fart and poop talk cross the cisgender line?
Deeply ingrained madonna complexes.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:10 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, I'm not. That's an exceptionally ridiculous misinterpretation of what I clearly said: nobody can know what it's like to be their own sex because they cannot experience that in isolation from all other characteristics and inputs. I'm saying neither males nor females know what it feels like to be males or females, as distinguished from being everything else that they are as well.
Wouldn't that also necessarily imply that a transgender person cannot know what it feels like to be male or females either?
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Old 21st July 2020, 12:26 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Wouldn't that also necessarily imply that a transgender person cannot know what it feels like to be male or females either?
Well, duh. It's not "implying", it's stating it outright.
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Old 21st July 2020, 01:39 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, duh. It's not "implying", it's stating it outright.
Okay... where does that leave us on the claim that transwomen are women full stop, based on the claim that they feel like women?
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Old 21st July 2020, 02:08 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Okay... where does that leave us on the claim that transwomen are women full stop, based on the claim that they feel like women?
I have no idea. That's not my claim, therefore I'm not obligated to believe in it or defend it.
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Old 21st July 2020, 08:48 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't care, in so far as it's how they feel about themselves.

I do care, however, when their perception of themselves confers an obligation on me.
The only "obligation" on you is to use their preferred pronouns and respect their right to be who they are. How hard is that?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is an interesting point. In almost every other aspect of life, we take pains to make sure that we are NOT defining what a person is. In all other aspects, we recognize that a person is a complex, multifaceted individual who is the sum of their attributes and experiences and character, and that no single label defines them as a monolithic identity.

But when it comes to gender, we're being asked to turn right back around, and make that single element of them as a person the entirety of their identity.

And then there's common sense. I'm an epileptic. It's not the only thing I am, but trying to insist that people call me a "person with epilepsy" is frankly dumb. Most of the time, my epilepsy is completely irrelevant. The only impact it has on day to day life is that my phone alarm goes off in the evening so I don't forget to take my anti-seziure meds. Oh, and I probably won't do a month-long camping trip in the outback or go sky-diving, and I don't much care for nightclubs with loud music and flashy lights that are likely triggers of a seizure.

But when it's relevant, it's perfectly acceptable and straight up common sense that I be referred to as "an epileptic".
Okay, and additionally it's common in the ASD community to refer to an "autistic person" rather than a "person with autism". It's almost like different things are different, and not all analogies are applicable in all cases.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:40 AM   #338
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Question

???



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Old 24th July 2020, 04:44 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The only "obligation" on you is to use their preferred pronouns and respect their right to be who they are. How hard is that?
Why is it an obligation? Is there a "reasonable person" test that applies?
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:00 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
???

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...41e039374f.jpg

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TragicMonkey could, if TragicMonkey desired, go the rest of TragicMonkey's life without using a single pronoun. All pronouns in English are simply linguistic convenience.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:04 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
TragicMonkey could, if TragicMonkey desired, go the rest of TragicMonkey's life without using a single pronoun.
A man thinks this is silly.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:11 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
???

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...41e039374f.jpg

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Or else ... ?
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:15 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A man thinks this is silly.
Belz means "a person thinks this is silly" because Belz would never want to offend any persons.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:16 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Or else ... ?
I was going to say "to Pronoun Camp with you!" except that actually does sound like some horrible educational thing schools would do one day in summer. Education activities are the worst.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:17 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Belz means "a person thinks this is silly" because Belz would never want to offend any persons.
It was a GoT reference, mate.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:19 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It was a GoT reference, mate.
One knows nothing. I read the books before they were popular! And I dare you to make too many remarks using the word "man" as your pronoun around Varys or that army of brainwashed eunuch slaves.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:24 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And I dare you to make too many remarks using the word "man" as your pronoun around Varys or that army of brainwashed eunuch slaves.
Without all that testosterone they are as weak as kittens!
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:25 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Or else ... ?
Social sanctions, I suppose.

Unless your employee handbook has something to say about this, which it very well may. Deliberately and repeatedly misgendering an individual in the workplace would probably (correctly, IMO) fall under the headings of harassment and/or hostile environment.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:47 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Social sanctions, I suppose.

Unless your employee handbook has something to say about this, which it very well may. Deliberately and repeatedly misgendering an individual in the workplace would probably (correctly, IMO) fall under the headings of harassment and/or hostile environment.
Two easy fixes :

1) Start referring to everyone in the office as "it" or "thing". It's not discrimination if you're treating everyone the same.

2) Protest to HR that, while you might not have the biological condition, you identify as someone with prosopagnosia . So respect me as someone who can't remember faces, names, or pronouns or I'll have your ass fired for erasing my identity.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:50 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Two easy fixes :

1) Start referring to everyone in the office as "it" or "thing". It's not discrimination if you're treating everyone the same.

2) Protest to HR that, while you might not have the biological condition, you identify as someone with prosopagnosia . So respect me as someone who can't remember faces, names, or pronouns or I'll have your ass fired for erasing my identity.
3) Don't be an ******* and use the person's prefered pronoun.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:52 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
3) Don't be an ******* and use the person's prefered pronoun.
"I prefer Master, sir".
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:56 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"I prefer Master, sir".

"David refuses to call me 'Imperator', even though I'd made my pronouns clear to him. To the area with him!"
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:44 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
"David refuses to call me 'Imperator', even though I'd made my pronouns clear to him."
Doesn't sound like something one would expect to hear outside of Youtube sketch comedy. I mean, it draws a giggle but not necessarily an analogy.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
TragicMonkey could, if TragicMonkey desired, go the rest of TragicMonkey's life without using a single pronoun. All pronouns in English are simply linguistic convenience.
Damion agrees. When in doubt, just add more syllables.

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Old 24th July 2020, 07:48 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Doesn't sound like something one would expect to hear outside of Youtube sketch comedy. I mean, it draws a giggle but not necessarily an analogy.
Yeah and "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" was the punchline to a joke in an Arnold film in the 90s.

"But it makes my argument look bad" doesn't make an analogy invalid.

You want something real world so the "But that's a strawman!" subroutine it's triggered? Fine. Otherkin.

I demand you not only refer to me but literally think of me as a dragon. Can you do it?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:55 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"But it makes my argument look bad" doesn't make an analogy invalid.
Which argument would an individual's insistence on "Imperator" as a personal pronoun help refute?



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Old 24th July 2020, 07:56 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which argument would an individual's insistence on "Imperator" as a personal pronoun help refute?
The whole "Just shut up, stop being so difficult, and just call the person in question what they want to be called" thing.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:57 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which argument would an individual's insistence on "Imperator" as a personal pronoun help refute?
In my heart of hearts I really do believe that I'm the emperor of the world. I'm trans-royalty.

This is why the ipso-facto what-you-feel-is-what-you-are doesn't work: because we never accomodate it otherwise.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:58 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
In Japan there is a common superstition that blood types are predictive of personality types. Suppose you have one bloodtype, but feel that the description of the associated personality does not fit you at all and you recognise yourself more in the description of another blood type.
//Hijack//

I learned about this in a video game article of places, to explain why blood types pop as character attributes in Japanese Video Games so often for no obvious reason. (They used the classic coin-op tournament fighter Street Fighter II as a classic example)
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:30 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In my heart of hearts I really do believe that I'm the emperor of the world. I'm trans-royalty.

This is why the ipso-facto what-you-feel-is-what-you-are doesn't work: because we never accomodate it otherwise.

A more grounded example I'd used before is height. Several thousand years ago when I was doing the online dating thing it was not uncommon to see women including minimum heights in their wish list. Must be 6' 4" or taller, that sort of thing. Now let's say I got to chatting with one of those and we agree to meet for dinner. In walks my 5' 9" self, and she's clearly upset. "But wait," I say, "while my biological height might be 5'9", my internal stature is that of a 6'8" guy. Please don't confuse height with stature, it's demeaning.". That would be patently absurd, but the gender thing gets a pass.

And to be clear the issue isn't really pronouns or names despite my 'or else' post. I've said before I'd do my level best to remember that Dave now wants to be called Doris or the like. And if you insist on one of those silly 'xir' pronouns I'll just not bother and use your name. Names, style of dress, whatever - have at it. It's just the insistence that you really are this other thing that you're not, and that other people treat you in all ways as if you were, that's pushing it. One obvious example being the 'wax my ladyballs' guy a few months back.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:33 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This is why the ipso-facto what-you-feel-is-what-you-are doesn't work: because we never accomodate it otherwise.
Seems like a slippery slope argument from where I'm sitting. How does one get from he/she/they (which seems simple enough to me) to delusional individuals demanding to be perceived as royalty?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The whole "Just shut up, stop being so difficult, and just call the person in question what they want to be called" thing.
Um, okay. How about "It isn't really all that difficult to remember he/she/they."

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