ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 18th July 2020, 09:37 PM   #1
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,617
Mask Rage

I'm figuring this category of incident might merit its own thread, because these incidents are becoming prolific, or at least are certainly not slowing down.

For the sake of honestly I'm going to lay out my thoughts about the phenomenon of people who refuse to wear masks during the Covid pandemic. I am certainly open to challenges and discussion on these observations; they are only what I have seen and interpreted.

Basically - mask rage is entirely political. Like "intelligent design", or climate change, I recognize that a few mask-opponents are trying to frame their arguments as scientific; but ultimately that is prevarication and the reason they don't want to wear masks is because fighting mask mandates is a way of expressing support for President Trump, and people who wear masks and businesses that require them are being interpreted as expressing defiance of Trump. The President told them at the beginning that Covid-19 is a hoax - either the existence of the virus altogether, or the threat it poses - and has given them permission, continuously reinforced, to ignore medical experts and treat local and state government officials who take the virus seriously as "anti-Trump" by definition and therefore political enemies. I have seen mask-advocates who are not necessarily Trump-opponents. I have not, however, seen any vocal mask-opponents who were not full-MAGA Trump supporters. Every single anti-mask rally or demonstration I've seen, and most of the individual incidents of "mask rage" that I've seen videos of, have had the mask-opponent(s) shouting some kind of Trump campaign slogan at some point.

Now with that out of the way, first incident (for the thread):

Woman refuses to leave Verizon store for not wearing mask; urinates on floor

Quote:
In a 911 call, you hear a dispatch operator tell an officer three people are “refusing to leave, not wearing a mask… they’ve asked several times and she refuses.”

About three minutes later the operator tells the officer, “They’re calling back and advising that that female is pulling down her pants and is now urinating inside the business.”

Roseville Police got to the scene and confirmed the incident to CBS13. Spokesperson Rob Baquera says officers arrested the woman after finding several stolen items from a nearby Dick’s Sporting Goods store in her vehicle.

Verizon spokesperson Heidi Flato says the company is requiring all customers to wear masks in their stores. Flato told CBS13 the incident wasn’t just about the company’s mask policy but wouldn’t comment further about what happened.
But that is just my experience so far, which is not absolute of course.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 09:56 PM   #2
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,249
Slight sidebar: I really, really hate the masks. They look ridiculous and make it hard to breathe and all. But I really hate highly contagious viruses more. They are known to any one with a grade-school comprehension of viruses to reduce transmission.

Please wear the stupid masks. Just do it, till Corona goes back to being a beer.
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:13 PM   #3
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,629
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Like "intelligent design", or climate change, I recognize that a few mask-opponents are trying to frame their arguments as scientific; but ultimately that is prevarication and the reason they don't want to wear masks is because fighting mask mandates is a way of expressing support for President Trump, and people who wear masks and businesses that require them are being interpreted as expressing defiance of Trump. The President told them ...
Covid-19 is a pandemic affecting the whole world.

Not everything is about the United States of America. Not everything is a pro-Trump / anti-Trump dichotomy.

Here in Japan, the way it works is that the majority of people wear masks. They wear them to work, they wear them in shops, they wear them on public transports, and they have done since the very beginning of this thing.

Occasionally, you will see people walking around on shops, and on the very few occasions I have used the subway in the last few months, occasionally someone will get on the subway without wearing one, and they might as well be wearing a bell, and a sign saying "Social Pariah". It is pretty rare to see people without them on public transport. That said, when the numbers of infections seemed to have gone down during the "soft lockdown" that we had here, people did start to loosen up with the mask-wearing and go to pubs, restaurants and gyms more often. And since then we have seen infections rise again.

There has never been a mandate to wear them, and where possible, you want a government that strongly encourages mask wearing.

And that is one of the big problems in the west and elsewhere when it comes to mask-wearing.

The problem is that mask-wearing was officially frowned on by governments and public health officials in most Western countries - particularly countries like the UK and Canada (not just the US; not just Trump!). We have also had plenty of posters here parrot the lines that masks are useless. As far as I know many of them are not Trump supporters.

The reasons were short-sighted - they needed the PPE for health workers,but the messaging was absolutely terrible. They should have said they were necessary, but most needed for health care workers and those governments should have secured enough for their workers and produced more as quickly as possible.

They should never have told people they were useless, because now they have to go back on this and not only tell people they are useful but mandatory.

A lot of governments are trying to rule by decree instead of by persuasion, and that has led to a loss of trust.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:16 PM   #4
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I'm figuring this category of incident might merit its own thread, because these incidents are becoming prolific, or at least are certainly not slowing down.

For the sake of honestly I'm going to lay out my thoughts about the phenomenon of people who refuse to wear masks during the Covid pandemic. I am certainly open to challenges and discussion on these observations; they are only what I have seen and interpreted.

Basically - mask rage is entirely political. Like "intelligent design", or climate change, I recognize that a few mask-opponents are trying to frame their arguments as scientific; but ultimately that is prevarication and the reason they don't want to wear masks is because fighting mask mandates is a way of expressing support for President Trump, and people who wear masks and businesses that require them are being interpreted as expressing defiance of Trump. The President told them at the beginning that Covid-19 is a hoax - either the existence of the virus altogether, or the threat it poses - and has given them permission, continuously reinforced, to ignore medical experts and treat local and state government officials who take the virus seriously as "anti-Trump" by definition and therefore political enemies. I have seen mask-advocates who are not necessarily Trump-opponents. I have not, however, seen any vocal mask-opponents who were not full-MAGA Trump supporters. Every single anti-mask rally or demonstration I've seen, and most of the individual incidents of "mask rage" that I've seen videos of, have had the mask-opponent(s) shouting some kind of Trump campaign slogan at some point.

Now with that out of the way, first incident (for the thread):

Woman refuses to leave Verizon store for not wearing mask; urinates on floor



But that is just my experience so far, which is not absolute of course.
Haven't worn one and touch wood, won't have to, but thought the orange idiot is wearing them now?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:21 PM   #5
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 56,563
I think it's more a psychological reaction to the pandemic. Some people cannot accept an unpleasant reality, so they wallow in denial and subject the rest of us to outbursts and tantrums. They're like toddlers stamping their feet and screaming "I don't wanna!"

My mom's not that bad, but more than once lately I've had to remind her that nobody wants a pandemic, but we have to deal with it because it's here. Wishful thinking that life will go back to normal if we ignore reality doesn't work on disease.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:35 PM   #6
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Creating custom branded personalised ones would probably be a good side gig, money making wise atm.

The Silence of the Lambs sack barrow scene wheeling him out inspired one etc
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:36 PM   #7
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,825
Masks are now mandated in public in Melbourne, with a population of 5 million, with a $200 fine imposed on people (over 12) who won’t comply. There will be a handful of “freemen” - yes there a few here - who won’t comply, but I reckon that will be it.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:40 PM   #8
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,249
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Creating custom branded personalised ones would probably be a good side gig, money making wise atm.

The Silence of the Lambs sack barrow scene wheeling him out inspired one etc
Already big business in the States. Sports teams, etc. Customer of mine bought a home kit to personalize masks with her store's logo.
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:41 PM   #9
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Had 2 meetings with different vendors in Melbourne last week and I have two brothers and a sister living there.

They are all using them going out.

Mind you they are all working from home and pretty much not leaving their house unless it is unavoidable.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 10:46 PM   #10
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Already big business in the States. Sports teams, etc. Customer of mine bought a home kit to personalize masks with her store's logo.
lol

I googled to have a look

I should have known someone would have got there first



Edit: Sorry. spoilered due to size
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; 18th July 2020 at 10:50 PM.
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th July 2020, 11:48 PM   #11
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,617
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Covid-19 is a pandemic affecting the whole world.

Not everything is about the United States of America. Not everything is a pro-Trump / anti-Trump dichotomy.

Here in Japan, the way it works is that the majority of people wear masks. They wear them to work, they wear them in shops, they wear them on public transports, and they have done since the very beginning of this thing.

Occasionally, you will see people walking around on shops, and on the very few occasions I have used the subway in the last few months, occasionally someone will get on the subway without wearing one, and they might as well be wearing a bell, and a sign saying "Social Pariah". It is pretty rare to see people without them on public transport. That said, when the numbers of infections seemed to have gone down during the "soft lockdown" that we had here, people did start to loosen up with the mask-wearing and go to pubs, restaurants and gyms more often. And since then we have seen infections rise again.

There has never been a mandate to wear them, and where possible, you want a government that strongly encourages mask wearing.

And that is one of the big problems in the west and elsewhere when it comes to mask-wearing.

The problem is that mask-wearing was officially frowned on by governments and public health officials in most Western countries - particularly countries like the UK and Canada (not just the US; not just Trump!).
Fair enough, I will amend my statement to say that in the US it is about Trump. In other countries like the UK and Canada, it may not be "about Trump", but it is still political; it's "about" whatever that country's analogy to Trump is. In the UK, the conservative party and UKIP have been saying the exact same things about the virus and masks that Trump has been in the US; so, conservatives in the UK complain about or refuse to wear masks as a function of political allegiance with those groups.

I can't say as much about non-western countries. I understand that for instance, there are some in Japan who personally choose not to wear masks, or simply forget now and then. But do they get together in groups to advocate against mask-wearing by the community? Or engage in incidents of "mask rage" when, for instance, a store requires them to wear one if they want to enter, attacking the store employees for making the request, or (occasionally) even bystanders who ARE wearing masks? I haven't heard of such incidents.


Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
We have also had plenty of posters here parrot the lines that masks are useless. As far as I know many of them are not Trump supporters.
Don't take this as trying to put you on the spot. But can you think of a few names? I don't recall seeing non-Trump-supporters here advocating that people should not wear masks or that state or local mask mandates are wrong or should be disobeyed.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The reasons were short-sighted - they needed the PPE for health workers,but the messaging was absolutely terrible. They should have said they were necessary, but most needed for health care workers and those governments should have secured enough for their workers and produced more as quickly as possible.

They should never have told people they were useless, because now they have to go back on this and not only tell people they are useful but mandatory.
I don't think that really is a factor - at least not in the US. Yes, anti-mask advocates in the US have quoted some of those early statements; but as I've already mentioned, it's prevarication, not genuine. Those individuals aren't refusing to wear masks because state governments told them to reserve PPEs for health care workers in the early days of the pandemic. The very first iterations of what lately manifests as "mask rage", were political marches demanding the reopening of businesses that were closed - "masks" weren't then a factor. Now the businesses are open, with recommendations or requirements to wear masks while inside them, and the exact same people who demanded the opening of the businesses, are now demanding an end to mask recommendations or requirements. Perhaps it would be helpful to redefine the group I'm talking about, away from being "anti-mask" specifically and instead being "anti-ANY-suggested-recommended-or-required-social-measures-intended-to-combat-Covid-19". They are protesting against authorities treating Covid-19 as a serious threat, however that concern manifests - whether it be the closure of businesses, the mandating of masks, the cancellations of large public gatherings, or any other manifestation.

Most people in the US seem to be wearing masks now, and most seem to either understand that the government's early statements were meant only to dissuade hoarding at a time when the supply was very short, or they don't remember or just don't care.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002

Last edited by Checkmite; 18th July 2020 at 11:51 PM.
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:02 AM   #12
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Fair enough, I will amend my statement to say that in the US it is about Trump. In other countries like the UK and Canada, it may not be "about Trump", but it is still political; it's "about" whatever that country's analogy to Trump is. In the UK, the conservative party and UKIP have been saying the exact same things about the virus and masks that Trump has been in the US; so, conservatives in the UK complain about or refuse to wear masks as a function of political allegiance with those groups.

I can't say as much about non-western countries. I understand that for instance, there are some in Japan who personally choose not to wear masks, or simply forget now and then. But do they get together in groups to advocate against mask-wearing by the community? Or engage in incidents of "mask rage" when, for instance, a store requires them to wear one if they want to enter, attacking the store employees for making the request, or (occasionally) even bystanders who ARE wearing masks? I haven't heard of such incidents.

Please don't lump all countries into your political situation.

We are currently not wearing masks because we don't need to

Quote:
Don't take this as trying to put you on the spot. But can you think of a few names? I don't recall seeing non-Trump-supporters here advocating that people should not wear masks or that state or local mask mandates are wrong or should be disobeyed.
You could start with Cambridge university experts. There were a load.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...ing-virologist

Quote:
There is some evidence to suggest the masks can help prevent hand-to-mouth transmissions, but virologists are sceptical about their effectiveness against airborne viruses.

Surgical masks were first introduced into hospitals in the late 18th Century but did not make the transition into public use until the Spanish flu outbreak in 1919 that went on to kill over 50 million people.

Dr Chris Smith, consultant virologist at Cambridge University, told RNZ people should not buy them and instead save their money.

"Go and spend it on something useful that you enjoy doing, like having a beer. Those face masks are absolute rubbish and they do nothing."
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:15 AM   #13
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,617
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Please don't lump all countries into your political situation.

We are currently not wearing masks because we don't need to
I don't recall posting a single thing about your country; please feel free to quote where I did.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:27 AM   #14
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't recall posting a single thing about your country; please feel free to quote where I did.
Your OP doesn't mention any specific countries.

It is a broad brush about some "mask rage" concept every where.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:41 AM   #15
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,678
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's more a psychological reaction to the pandemic. Some people cannot accept an unpleasant reality, so they wallow in denial and subject the rest of us to outbursts and tantrums. They're like toddlers stamping their feet and screaming "I don't wanna!"
I think you are closer to the mark. It is not really about Trump.

I live out near the sticks. Rednecks and whatnot. Most people do not wear masks and appear to be quite against the idea.

I think a major issue is that wearing a mask shows that you are afraid. And these guys want to make sure they show everybody that they are not afraid of anything. So no mask.

And wearing a mask shows that you are following somebody else's instructions or orders. And these guys are going to be independent and free of any authority. So no mask.

Their real issue is showing that they will defy any authority and that they are not afraid of anything.

(I will leave it as an exercise to the reader on how this affects opinions on issues like gun control, climate change, and tax rates. For extra credit, explain how these same opinions exist in obvious contraction to the war on drugs, abortion, and religious rights.)
__________________
"I don't need to fight to prove I'm right." - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:44 AM   #16
Lplus
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I think you are closer to the mark. It is not really about Trump.

I live out near the sticks. Rednecks and whatnot. Most people do not wear masks and appear to be quite against the idea.

I think a major issue is that wearing a mask shows that you are afraid. And these guys want to make sure they show everybody that they are not afraid of anything. So no mask.

And wearing a mask shows that you are following somebody else's instructions or orders. And these guys are going to be independent and free of any authority. So no mask.

Their real issue is showing that they will defy any authority and that they are not afraid of anything.

(I will leave it as an exercise to the reader on how this affects opinions on issues like gun control, climate change, and tax rates. For extra credit, explain how these same opinions exist in obvious contraction to the war on drugs, abortion, and religious rights.)
Indeed. In a country which trumpets the freedom of the individual, it's hardly surprising to find at least some of the populaton object to that freedom being reduced.
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 12:53 AM   #17
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,678
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Indeed. In a country which trumpets the freedom of the individual, it's hardly surprising to find at least some of the populaton object to that freedom being reduced.
Well, it trumpets certain freedoms of certain individuals. Select the certain circumstances as how you see fit. Ignore or oppose the others.

But, yes, it is not surprising.
__________________
"I don't need to fight to prove I'm right." - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 01:17 AM   #18
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,629
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post

Don't take this as trying to put you on the spot. But can you think of a few names? I don't recall seeing non-Trump-supporters here advocating that people should not wear masks or that state or local mask mandates are wrong or should be disobeyed.

I could be wrong about their Trump allegiances but certainly Phantom Wolf and Tero have made posts to that effect. There may have been more, especially early on.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 02:09 AM   #19
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I could be wrong about their Trump allegiances but certainly Phantom Wolf and Tero have made posts to that effect. There may have been more, especially early on.
??

Could be wrong, but PhantonWolf isn't even American.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 02:38 AM   #20
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,629
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
??

Could be wrong, but PhantonWolf isn't even American.
Oh Jesus!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 02:43 AM   #21
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oh Jesus!
In what way?

He can't vote for the orange idiot.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 03:12 AM   #22
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,978
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think it's more a psychological reaction to the pandemic. Some people cannot accept an unpleasant reality, so they wallow in denial and subject the rest of us to outbursts and tantrums. They're like toddlers stamping their feet and screaming "I don't wanna!"

My mom's not that bad, but more than once lately I've had to remind her that nobody wants a pandemic, but we have to deal with it because it's here. Wishful thinking that life will go back to normal if we ignore reality doesn't work on disease.
This is my view. Seeing people wearing a mask is a visual reminder that THINGS ARE NOT NORMAL and if you're in denial about that - it's an affront to you and a personal attack.

If you want to see this mindset, search for the #KBF hashtag on Twitter. It apparently stands for "Keep Britain Free" and has lots of really unpleasant tweets.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 03:35 AM   #23
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This is my view. Seeing people wearing a mask is a visual reminder that THINGS ARE NOT NORMAL and if you're in denial about that - it's an affront to you and a personal attack.



If you want to see this mindset, search for the #KBF hashtag on Twitter. It apparently stands for "Keep Britain Free" and has lots of really unpleasant tweets.
Probably some truth to this tbf.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 04:40 AM   #24
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 36,164
I'm wondering how this would have all played out had Trump jumped on the mask/social distancing bandwagon at the very start. Would the left have gone all in too, or would they have fought tooth and nail against it since it was Trump saying it?
Remember, it was Nancy was telling people to go hug everyone in Chinatown at one point, or something along those lines anyway.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 05:15 AM   #25
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,946
I've been trying to grok this anti mask thing and how intense the anti mask sentiment can get. It feels like the three factors people have brought up are probably the major players, like any major phenomena, it's not just one thing.

Political identity/allegiance
Fear of showing fear
Denial as a way to cling to and try to manifest normalcy

I have a campground I've been working for the past few years (I'm a puppeteer in case anyone doesn't know). They're the only place that has hired me for in-person gigs since the pandemic started. Since the performances were outdoors and I'd be able to keep a significant distance, I've been up there twice over the summer so far.

I didn't know when I first started working for them that they were politically conservative. The family that runs it are nice folks, pay well, hire me consistently.

Both times I've been up there, I've tried to stay away from political talk, bacause these are fraught times and nothing I say is going to change anyone's mind. The virus came up (it's hard for it not to). The woman who hired me cycled through some version of pretty much every talking point I've heard to minimize the virus (although, none of most crazy conspiracy versions).

But what struck me was the tone and framing of the way she brought them up, it was clear she was trying to convince herself. She wanted a return to normalcy, security for her business, safety for her family. No one she knows died from it. It was honestly the first time I'd heard these sentiments in person from someone I know rather than through the internet and I could at least sympathize that she WANTED it to be true that there was nothing to worry about, and clinging to claims and actions consistent with there being nothing to worry about were the results.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Cavemonster; 19th July 2020 at 06:09 AM.
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 05:19 AM   #26
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,946
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'm wondering how this would have all played out had Trump jumped on the mask/social distancing bandwagon at the very start. Would the left have gone all in too, or would they have fought tooth and nail against it since it was Trump saying it?
Remember, it was Nancy was telling people to go hug everyone in Chinatown at one point, or something along those lines anyway.
I think you've given your own answer in the end there.

If there was a prominent democrat early in the game advising the wrong things as you claim Pelosi did (I haven't followed that particular claim, so I don't know what she actually said) democrats as a whole still end up following the science and recommendations of health experts.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 05:35 AM   #27
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,629
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
In what way?

He can't vote for the orange idiot.
I said:

Quote:
As far as I know many of them are not Trump supporters.
Why are you now pointing out to me that said poster is not a Trump supporter!

I KNOW!!!1!

That's literally what I bloody said!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 06:06 AM   #28
The Man
Unbanned zombie poster
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Poughkeepsie, NY
Posts: 14,783
I work in a clean room, so masks have always been a requirement there. We did have a greater selection of masks to use, some lighter than others, but one was eliminated due to cost years ago and site requirements are now for the heavy mask only. Even when outside the clean room. They are a bit restrictive and tend to fog glasses and safety glasses. My one coworker started modifying his masks, cutting out one layer to make them lighter. I advised him that while he is an adult and thus perfectly capable to make his own decisions and take the resulting consequences, he should be aware of those potential consequences. Modifying the masks could be see as deliberately trying to circumvent both customer (site) and company (our employer's) health and safety requirements. Which could result in disciplinary action, removal from site access or even termination. He stopped messing with the masks and while before he would remark that the virus is a "joke" he seems to be taking it a bit more seriously now.
__________________
BRAINZZZZZZZZ
The Man is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 06:37 AM   #29
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 20,587
I really don't get the objection. Maryland has had a mask mandate for months and we're doing pretty well. He had some disturbing spikes the last three days, likely the 4th of July weekend catching up with us but nothing like Florida and Texas.

The Gravy SEALS did a small anti mask parade in their pick-ups down the main state highway here, but other than that, everyone seems to be on board.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band. A vote for Trump is a vote for treason.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 07:35 AM   #30
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 22,972
I went to a pizza parlor to pick up a pizza last night. They were supposed to have curbside delivery but didn't do it, so I had to go in (with mask). The restaurant side of the business was closed, and I saw a mix of customers with and without masks on the bar side. What was odd was seeing the several workers in various stages of masked-ness. They all had them on, somehow, but most weren't wearing them right. Fortunately the woman taking the orders was properly masked.

I put one on every time I go into a store or enclosed area, which isn't all that often. But when I'm out walking usually twice a day, I don't feel the need to have one, even though I occasionally pass by people. (I do have one with me at all times.) There is always enough room to maintain a distance, and there are never enough people out and about to be concerned about. If I was doing a crowded lake path, it would be a different story.

I saw someone driving a car (solo) with a mask on. While it's fine for them, I guess, I find it totally unnecessary. (Perhaps they were just leaving a drive-thru or something. No big deal.)
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.

Last edited by alfaniner; 19th July 2020 at 07:36 AM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 08:19 AM   #31
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,945
Everyone I've been speaking to has shrugged their shoulders and taken a "if we need to we need to". Lots of us have started wearing them now before it becomes compulsory on 24th.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 08:58 AM   #32
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,840
Scottsdale Karen:

Quote:
The woman approaches the display of masks that are sealed in plastic bags and others displayed with no wrapping.

She slams the masks from the display onto the floor while saying, “So, Target, I’m not playing anymore f—ing games. This s–t is f—ing over.”
In Phoenix, masks are MUCH more common than they were even a month ago. I have even seen people driving their cars with no passengers wearing masks, which is silly (but encouraging). My sister lives in New Jersey, so she warned me ahead of time and sent me a few homemade masks.

I don't get the politicization of wearing the masks; it's almost like Trump is trying to kill off his supporters before the election. And they are rushing forward like lemmings to the sea.

ETA: The worst thing about wearing the masks is when you burp. Arrrrrgggghhh!
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 19th July 2020 at 09:01 AM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 09:02 AM   #33
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,120
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'm wondering how this would have all played out had Trump jumped on the mask/social distancing bandwagon at the very start. Would the left have gone all in too, or would they have fought tooth and nail against it since it was Trump saying it?
Trump has started wearing a mask and the response from “the left” hasn’t changed. Seems a safe bet that it’s based on medical science and not what Trump is doing.

Quote:
Remember, it was Nancy was telling people to go hug everyone in Chinatown at one point, or something along those lines anyway.
Mischaracterization and false equivalency. Pelosi’s comments about people going to Chinatown were in the very early days of the virus outbreak before the full scale of its impact and the compete unpreparedness of the Trump administration were fully known or understood.

Last edited by johnny karate; 19th July 2020 at 09:03 AM.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 09:45 AM   #34
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 36,164
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Trump has started wearing a mask and the response from “the left” hasn’t changed. Seems a safe bet that it’s based on medical science and not what Trump is doing.
I wasn't talking about what he's doing NOW, I said IF he'd gone all in at the START.

Originally Posted by johnny karate
Mischaracterization and false equivalency. Pelosi’s comments about people going to Chinatown were in the very early days of the virus outbreak before the full scale of its impact and the compete unpreparedness of the Trump administration were fully known or understood.
Way to drive home how much you missed the first point.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

Last edited by Mike!; 19th July 2020 at 09:46 AM.
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 09:59 AM   #35
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,120
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I wasn't talking about what he's doing NOW, I said IF he'd gone all in at the START.
Your argument is based on the premise that “the left” would choose to not wear masks in opposition to Trump.

They’re not doing that now, so I’m unclear why you think they might do that at all.

Quote:
Way to drive home how much you missed the first point.
Since I missed it, please explain it to me.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 10:02 AM   #36
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 36,164
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Your argument is based on the premise that “the left” would choose to not wear masks in opposition to Trump.

They’re not doing that now, so I’m unclear why you think they might do that at all.



Since I missed it, please explain it to me.
It's a simple progression of thought based on the general reaction by the left to any action taken by Trump over, I don't know, let's say, the past three and a half years.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 10:07 AM   #37
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,120
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
It's a simple progression of thought based on the general reaction by the left to any action taken by Trump over, I don't know, let's say, the past three and a half years.
Based on the false assumption that opposition to Trump is for its own sake rather than Trump frequently being on the wrong side of issues, facts, and reality in general.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 10:08 AM   #38
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,296
Regardless of how they arrived at their position, do you believe they believe their position about masks being bad?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 10:15 AM   #39
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,120
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Regardless of how they arrived at their position, do you believe they believe their position about masks being bad?
Who are you talking about?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2020, 10:16 AM   #40
Lerxst
Muse
 
Lerxst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Big D
Posts: 639
I have read a few articles from epidemiologists and they all seem to agree on the following:

1. You don't need to wear one in your car if you are alone or traveling with someone in your household.

2. You don't need to wear one outdoors if you can maintain distance, and even walking, hiking, or cycling on a trail with other people is not likely to infect you.

3. Enclosed, indoor spaces is what you need to worry about. Masks are more effective at preventing someone from spreading the virus to others, they do little to protect the wearer.

4. Masks can lead to a false sense of security, in that even when worn properly they only buy you some time. An example that I remember was using a car or other vehicle...if both occupants are masked they can expect the mask to protect them for about 20 minutes or so and then it drops off quickly after that, especially if distance can't be maintained. Without masks, you've got a maximum of 10 minutes.

I don't have any qualifications and probably can't find the references, so if you want a cite for any of these because you disagree I won't be able to find it. This is just what I have read from multiple interviews with epidemiologists.

From my perspective, the ones that I have run into that refuse to wear one either don't understand the above or they are willfully ignorant and don't trust experts. I do also see the parallel with political views though, at least in the people that I know and have knowledge of their politics.
Lerxst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:22 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.