ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd July 2020, 05:53 PM   #121
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,128
John Oliver on various Coronavirus conspiracy theories and misinformation.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


(It is relevant to the thread topic.)
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2020, 05:59 PM   #122
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,610
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Neither of which are required to make you feel out of breath or give you a headache.

My 230 lbs of lean body mass hauling around 300 lbs needs a lot of oxygen. Cloth masks just don't do it, I learned that working in a dusty environment. The larger rubber kind like car painters use work. Except they only filter the intake.

But really? When we all going to get it, and 97% of the people who get it don't even know they had it? And a 1/2% death rate? What else is that rare- Bee stings? Abscessed teeth? Wood chippers?
Can you clarify this for me.... you have 230 lbs of lean body mass and you are hauling around 300 lbs? Is that the non-lean body mass? Because if it is you have then surely the mask is the least of your worries.

Also, where do you get the figures for 97% not knowing they had it and 0.5% death rate (still pretty high if you look at the US population as a whole and you are talking about 1.5 million dead there alone. Plus the number of people who will be incapacitated by it for a long time and those who will eventually die of complications after a long illness etc....)
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2020, 10:38 PM   #123
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 82,188
For the anecdotal record, I have some pretty serious lung issues. It's gotten worse over the years. I can still walk up stairs but I get short of breath doing so.

I wear an N95 without an exhalation valve and I have a high quality finger oximeter. My O2 sats will go down to 94-96 when I go upstairs. My O2 sats don't change at all when I put the mask on.
__________________
ORANGE MAN BAD? Why yes, yes he is.

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 12:57 AM   #124
Manger Douse
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 420
I've seen someone use a quote from George Orwell, who died of tuberculosis, as a reason *not* to wear masks
Manger Douse is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 01:04 AM   #125
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,821
Masks are now mandatory in Melbourne from today. Almost everyone I saw in my work travels today had a mask apart from a few workers on building sites, one person waiting for a tram and a few walking around with a mask pulled down below their mouths.

The only mask rage you will see here is people abusing those idiots not wearing masks properly.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 23rd July 2020 at 01:05 AM.
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 02:49 AM   #126
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,507
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
50 people is massive?
On the Trump scale...
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 04:16 AM   #127
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,964
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Neither of which are required to make you feel out of breath or give you a headache.

My 230 lbs of lean body mass hauling around 300 lbs needs a lot of oxygen. Cloth masks just don't do it, I learned that working in a dusty environment. The larger rubber kind like car painters use work. Except they only filter the intake.

But really? When we all going to get it, and 97% of the people who get it don't even know they had it? And a 1/2% death rate? What else is that rare- Bee stings? Abscessed teeth? Wood chippers?
Not this *again*.

I don't know if there is a particular problem with bee stings in the US, but I am fairly certain that there haven't been 65,000 deaths from bee stings in the UK this year.


0.5% to 2% mortality, 5%-10% too ill to work for more than a month, of whom many have life-changing health damage.

But maybe bee stings are a big problem where you are.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 04:42 AM   #128
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,903
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can you clarify this for me.... you have 230 lbs of lean body mass and you are hauling around 300 lbs? Is that the non-lean body mass? Because if it is you have then surely the mask is the least of your worries.

Also, where do you get the figures for 97% not knowing they had it and 0.5% death rate (still pretty high if you look at the US population as a whole and you are talking about 1.5 million dead there alone. Plus the number of people who will be incapacitated by it for a long time and those who will eventually die of complications after a long illness etc....)
Perhaps it is an additional 300lbs.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:23 AM   #129
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,147
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Can you clarify this for me.... you have 230 lbs of lean body mass and you are hauling around 300 lbs? Is that the non-lean body mass? Because if it is you have then surely the mask is the least of your worries.

Also, where do you get the figures for 97% not knowing they had it and 0.5% death rate (still pretty high if you look at the US population as a whole and you are talking about 1.5 million dead there alone. Plus the number of people who will be incapacitated by it for a long time and those who will eventually die of complications after a long illness etc....)
300 is total. It takes work, masks are a resistance to oxygen flow. Ever read about fluid dynamics?

Latest CDC serology studies say that there are 14 asymptomatic cases per positive swab. They phrased their mass media reports as "asymptomatic people can spread it too". So, 14 out of 15 is 93%.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:26 AM   #130
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,797
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
300 is total. It takes work, masks are a resistance to oxygen flow. Ever read about fluid dynamics?
Look, we all hate wearing masks, ok? But it's to protect others from you. Let's each do our part.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:32 AM   #131
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,146
Nothing has tainted the concept/language of "Rights" more than the fact that's only invoked in the context of people picking the stupidest hills to die defending. Nobody ever screams about it being their right to run into a burning building to save orphans, always scream about their right to lick plague rats and put them in the buffet.

Just put on the damn mask you babies.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd July 2020 at 07:13 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:36 AM   #132
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 27,610
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
300 is total. It takes work, masks are a resistance to oxygen flow. Ever read about fluid dynamics?

Latest CDC serology studies say that there are 14 asymptomatic cases per positive swab. They phrased their mass media reports as "asymptomatic people can spread it too". So, 14 out of 15 is 93%.
In other words, plenty of people could have the disease and not know it. If they decide that they donít wear a mask because they donít like it, they are a hazard to others.

Wear a mask, and if itís too hard for you to breathe with one on then stay home. And if it is too hard for you to carry around your amount of weight you could start losing it instead of claiming special snowflake status.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:36 AM   #133
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,147
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Not this *again*.

I don't know if there is a particular problem with bee stings in the US, but I am fairly certain that there haven't been 65,000 deaths from bee stings in the UK this year.


0.5% to 2% mortality, 5%-10% too ill to work for more than a month, of whom many have life-changing health damage.

But maybe bee stings are a big problem where you are.
2,6 million Americans die each year. 1/2% of that is umm 14,000. We each die exactly ONE time, so that figure is valid in the long term. There will be a bubble this year for sure. But long run, 14K- or less. I did look for census "causes of mortality", it only goes down to #15, pneumonitis caused by getting food or drink into your lungs, 20,000. I'm sure we have all kniw lots of people that died that way....... huh? No? Well that is Covid- in the long run.

Throw in to the mix that the true cause of death is not reported, if you die WITH Covid it is reported as a Covid caused death. Positive swab, hit by a bus- Covid Death! I await some new stats on total deaths for 2020. So I can see just how many excess deaths get caused by Covid. I expect the total deaths to not top 3M, probably 100K + true deaths of the 200k that will be credited to C-19.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:43 AM   #134
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 45,821
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
2,6 million Americans die each year. 1/2% of that is umm 14,000. We each die exactly ONE time, so that figure is valid in the long term. There will be a bubble this year for sure. But long run, 14K- or less. I did look for census "causes of mortality", it only goes down to #15, pneumonitis caused by getting food or drink into your lungs, 20,000. I'm sure we have all kniw lots of people that died that way....... huh? No? Well that is Covid- in the long run.

Throw in to the mix that the true cause of death is not reported, if you die WITH Covid it is reported as a Covid caused death. Positive swab, hit by a bus- Covid Death! I await some new stats on total deaths for 2020. So I can see just how many excess deaths get caused by Covid. I expect the total deaths to not top 3M, probably 100K + true deaths of the 200k that will be credited to C-19.
Iím sorry, but this is just about the most ridiculous posts Iíve ever seen on this forum. I thought you were better than this. Not so it seems.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 06:44 AM   #135
RedStapler
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 426
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
masks are a resistance to oxygen flow. Ever read about fluid dynamics?
You should go and tell this "fact" to the millions of surgeons worldwide, performing 15 hour operations without collapsing due to lack of oxygen.
Ever read about fluid dynamics?
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:30 AM   #136
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,797
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
2,6 million Americans die each year. 1/2% of that is umm 14,000. We each die exactly ONE time, so that figure is valid in the long term. There will be a bubble this year for sure. But long run, 14K- or less. I did look for census "causes of mortality", it only goes down to #15, pneumonitis caused by getting food or drink into your lungs, 20,000. I'm sure we have all kniw lots of people that died that way....... huh? No? Well that is Covid- in the long run.

Throw in to the mix that the true cause of death is not reported, if you die WITH Covid it is reported as a Covid caused death. Positive swab, hit by a bus- Covid Death! I await some new stats on total deaths for 2020. So I can see just how many excess deaths get caused by Covid. I expect the total deaths to not top 3M, probably 100K + true deaths of the 200k that will be credited to C-19.
You're trying way too hard to justify your contrarianism.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:38 AM   #137
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,903
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to judge something just because it doesn't make sense to you. My mom has a dramatic fear of going to the dentist, because when they have her mouth open, she feels like she can't breathe and is going to suffocate. It is diagnosed as a claustrophobia reaction, and she now takes valium before going to the dentist... and also had to find a dentist who is skilled at working with people who are that scared and irrational about it. She also has no problem in aircraft. It has something to do with her face and mouth being covered or impeded. She also has trouble with masks, for the same reason. She hasn't been going out much during the pandemic, and she takes a valium if she has to go out. My dad is high risk, so she does what she needs to do to keep him protected, but she's been having legitimate struggles with it.
I agree with you - my mother has always had a phobia about her mouth and nose being covered, but she has no claustrophobia at all and I've never heard it being described as such. So yes it will cause genuine problems for some people. But this is such a time that is right we ignore this small percentage of people's problem and say "tough -in a shop, on public transport you have to wear one".

The rather ironic thing these days is that no one would be at any risk if my mother was out and about without a mask - her mouth and nose could be hermetically sealed and she'd have no problems breathing.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:40 AM   #138
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,797
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The rather ironic thing these days is that no one would be at any risk if my mother was out and about without a mask - her mouth and nose could be hermetically sealed and she'd have no problems breathing.
She evolved photosynthesis?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:43 AM   #139
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,903
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
She evolved photosynthesis?
Her temper got so hot once she instituted self fusion!

No - she breathes through a laryngectomy stoma.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 07:57 AM   #140
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,797
Yeah that's what I figured.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 08:09 AM   #141
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 22,507
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
This blatant denial of a persons' lived experience has triggered me so intensely I will now retreat to the loving arms coils of my emotional support python. At least Mister Hisser won't judge me if I'm not wearing a mask.
Unlike Leonard, who judges me for wearing one.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 08:58 AM   #142
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,147
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Iím sorry, but this is just about the most ridiculous posts Iíve ever seen on this forum. I thought you were better than this. Not so it seems.
Now there is somebody who did not read my signature.

Fine. You do your own math to answer this: If 1/2% of us die of C-19, how many will die per year once the disease levels off?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:00 AM   #143
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,147
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You should go and tell this "fact" to the millions of surgeons worldwide, performing 15 hour operations without collapsing due to lack of oxygen.
Ever read about fluid dynamics?
How many are 300 lbs and climb up a flight of stairs while doing said operations?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:02 AM   #144
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,147
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're trying way too hard to justify your contrarianism.
This is a skeptic site isn't it?

Looks like Libruls can't abide a different interpretation of the facts. Or at least not the ones into Pandemic Porn.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:10 AM   #145
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,225
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Now there is somebody who did not read my signature.
That might pack a little more punch if you correct the misspelling in the sig

Quote:
Fine. You do your own math to answer this: If 1/2% of us die of C-19, how many will die per year once the disease levels off?
That .5% thing is not real. On my State's COVID page, hospitals give a detailed breakdown of hospital attributions to death, complication, and separate categorizing for probable contribution. The 'hit by a bus while positive = COVID death' is just not true.
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:11 AM   #146
bobdroege7
Illuminator
 
bobdroege7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,084
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Now there is somebody who did not read my signature.

Fine. You do your own math to answer this: If 1/2% of us die of C-19, how many will die per year once the disease levels off?
Making a couple assumptions, I get 4 to 35 million per year.
__________________
Un-american Jack-booted thug

Graduate of a liberal arts college!

Faster play faster faster play faster
bobdroege7 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:16 AM   #147
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,226
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I agree with you - my mother has always had a phobia about her mouth and nose being covered, but she has no claustrophobia at all and I've never heard it being described as such. So yes it will cause genuine problems for some people. But this is such a time that is right we ignore this small percentage of people's problem and say "tough -in a shop, on public transport you have to wear one".

.
I won't even say "tough." I'll say, I understand, but it's still important. And what she needs to do is to work to make it better. Give her a plan for helping her practice coping with it. Start by putting it on at home for short periods. First have her get used to having it on her chin, then move it up over her mouth, and then nose and mouth. Do it for 2 minutes at first, and then take an hour break, and then 2 minutes more, and then an hour break, and work her way up. After a week, she should be to the point where she is wearing the mask over her nose and mouth for 15 minutes or more. Then she is ready to go to a store, or take the bus somewhere.

No need for tough love and to throw her into the deep end. Help her ease her way and overcome her issues. It's worth it.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:18 AM   #148
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,146
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
This is a skeptic site isn't it?
Well it's certainly a site where people play the "Oh but I thought this was a skeptic site" when they don't have a point, that's for sure.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:20 AM   #149
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,964
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
2,6 million Americans die each year. 1/2% of that is umm 14,000. We each die exactly ONE time, so that figure is valid in the long term. There will be a bubble this year for sure. But long run, 14K- or less. I did look for census "causes of mortality", it only goes down to #15, pneumonitis caused by getting food or drink into your lungs, 20,000. I'm sure we have all kniw lots of people that died that way....... huh? No? Well that is Covid- in the long run.

Throw in to the mix that the true cause of death is not reported, if you die WITH Covid it is reported as a Covid caused death. Positive swab, hit by a bus- Covid Death! I await some new stats on total deaths for 2020. So I can see just how many excess deaths get caused by Covid. I expect the total deaths to not top 3M, probably 100K + true deaths of the 200k that will be credited to C-19.
That is not the case. We know that George Floyd tested positive to SARS-COV2 but his death (rightly) was not attributed to COVID-19.


In the UK, we know that there was significant undercounting of COVID-19 deaths - by nearly a third (20,000 of 65,000). Is there a reason to suspect this is any different in the US?

We are talking about something where about 10% of those infected are ill enough to be unable to work for a month afterwards.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:28 AM   #150
Joe Random
Master Poster
 
Joe Random's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,511
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
This is a skeptic site isn't it?

Looks like Libruls can't abide a different interpretation of the facts. Or at least not the ones into Pandemic Porn.

Efficiently letting readers know how much weight to assign your opinions - quite courteous of you.
Joe Random is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:28 AM   #151
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 92,903
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
...snip...

No need for tough love and to throw her into the deep end. Help her ease her way and overcome her issues. It's worth it.
She's almost 80, and no one one has ever been able to tell her what to do! As she put it - "it's my choice either wear it where I have to or don't go there".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:42 AM   #152
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,572
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For the anecdotal record, I have some pretty serious lung issues. It's gotten worse over the years. I can still walk up stairs but I get short of breath doing so.

I wear an N95 without an exhalation valve and I have a high quality finger oximeter. My O2 sats will go down to 94-96 when I go upstairs. My O2 sats don't change at all when I put the mask on.
A cloth mask causes some discomfort, because you re-inhale some of your exhaled breath, which contains enough CO2 to make you feel like you're not getting enough air, but it really doesn't significantly interfere with your ability to take in sufficient oxygen. Maybe for someone with barely adequate lung function to begin with, a mask might make a difference, but of course these would also be people who absolutely do not want to catch covid-19, as it is very likely to kill them. It's important to realize that the uncomfortable feeling from wearing a mask is not really representative of any real impairment of ability to breathe. I tend to pull my mask down as soon as I'm outdoors and well away from other people, but I keep it in place when indoors or close to people. The discomfort can be tolerated. It's a hell of a lot less uncomfortable than a bad case of the disease is likely to be.

Last edited by CORed; 23rd July 2020 at 10:02 AM.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 09:51 AM   #153
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,572
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That is not the case. We know that George Floyd tested positive to SARS-COV2 but his death (rightly) was not attributed to COVID-19.


In the UK, we know that there was significant undercounting of COVID-19 deaths - by nearly a third (20,000 of 65,000). Is there a reason to suspect this is any different in the US?

We are talking about something where about 10% of those infected are ill enough to be unable to work for a month afterwards.
The bad effects of non-lethal cases seems to be something that all of the "it's no worse than the flu" denialists seem to be ignoring, along with the extremely high transmission rate in the absence of precautions. Besides which flu is actually pretty damn bad, but there is at least a vaccine available. Denialists, are now citing some anecdotes (usually without details necessary to verify them) of people who tested positive for the virus but died of other causes being counted as covid-19 deaths as "evidence" that the whole thing is overblown. This seems to be coming (or at least repeated by) Fox News. What a shock.

In my more misanthropic moods, I'm disappointed that the mortality rate isn't higher, as it may not kill enough denialists and anti-vaxers (a fair amount of overlap between those two groups), and similar idiots.

I get people being upset over being thrown out of work or having their businesses being disrupted by measures like lockdowns. I don't get them getting upset over common-sense measures that should reduce the need for the more drastic, economically disruptive measures. Would you really rather be unemployed than asked to wear a mask?

Last edited by CORed; 23rd July 2020 at 10:07 AM.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:00 AM   #154
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 90,797
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
This is a skeptic site isn't it?
So what are you waiting for? What you're doing is not skepticism. You're refusing to do something for no discernable reason and seeking to post-hoc justify it.

Quote:
Looks like Libruls can't abide a different interpretation of the facts. Or at least not the ones into Pandemic Porn.
144,000 dead isn't some fantasy, casebro. Texas hospitals are being overwhelmed.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:08 AM   #155
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,572
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
This is a skeptic site isn't it?

Looks like Libruls can't abide a different interpretation of the facts. Or at least not the ones into Pandemic Porn.
Looks like right wingers can't tell the difference between lies and "a different interpretation of the facts".

Last edited by CORed; 23rd July 2020 at 10:12 AM.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:31 AM   #156
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 22,930
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A cloth mask causes some discomfort, because you re-inhale some of your exhaled breath, which contains enough CO2 to make you feel like you're not getting enough air, but it really doesn't significantly interfere with your ability to take in sufficient oxygen. ,,,
I think for some people it's too much of a signal that maybe they should brush their teeth.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:37 AM   #157
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 5,211
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A cloth mask causes some discomfort, because you re-inhale some of your exhaled breath, which contains enough CO2 to make you feel like you're not getting enough air, but it really doesn't significantly interfere with your ability to take in sufficient oxygen. Maybe for someone with barely adequate lung function to begin with, a mask might make a difference, but of course these would also be people who absolutely do not want to catch covid-19, as it is very likely to kill them. It's important to realize that the uncomfortable feeling from wearing a mask is not really representative of any real impairment of ability to breathe. I tend to pull my mask down as soon as I'm outdoors and well away from other people, but I keep it in place when indoors or close to people. The discomfort can be tolerated. It's a hell of a lot less uncomfortable than a bad case of the disease is likely to be.
The complaints about discomfort are real. There's definitely more resistance when inhaling. I don't enjoy wearing mine, as my face beneath quickly becomes quite clammy with sweat and hot breath. I probably haven't had so many zits since high school.

None of this rises to the level of anything above a petty complaint. Certainly not to the level of a good enough reason to not wear a mask during a public health emergency.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 10:43 AM   #158
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,226
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
She's almost 80, and no one one has ever been able to tell her what to do! As she put it - "it's my choice either wear it where I have to or don't go there".
Yep, don't go there. That's a perfectly viable option.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 11:35 AM   #159
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,003
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So what are you waiting for? What you're doing is not skepticism. You're refusing to do something for no discernable reason and seeking to post-hoc justify it.



144,000 dead isn't some fantasy, casebro. Texas hospitals are being overwhelmed.
It is to some people ... but that's a different thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=341746
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2020, 11:48 AM   #160
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,488
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You should go and tell this "fact" to the millions of surgeons worldwide, performing 15 hour operations without collapsing due to lack of oxygen.
Ever read about fluid dynamics?
If you donít believe that masks restrict airflow, try running uphill while wearing one.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:41 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.