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Old 24th July 2020, 11:36 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Do you not care about the ones who die of flu? I mean if you do, then I guess we should do this BS for the flu too.
"LOL it's no worse than the flu."

Does everyone who denies reality get the same script delivered to them?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:37 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Do you not care about the ones who die of flu? I mean if you do, then I guess we should do this BS for the flu too.
Do you not understand the difference?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:39 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you not understand the difference?
Of course he does. But pretending he doesn't is fun to him.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:39 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Woah, 140k deaths out of 4 million cases is not 35%. It's 3.5%.
Sorry, missed the decimal point and you obviously missed the point by focusing on a mistake. 140k deaths is more than 10 times as many dead from H1N1, yet 1/15th the number of cases. Nothing to worry about.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:40 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you not understand the difference?
80,000 people died of the flu a couple of years ago. According to CDC, more have died of Covid-19, but again that includes untested and people who died of other things. For all we know, Covid-19 has killed less or about the same. The data is all screwed up because of the BS political games.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:41 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
80,000 people died of the flu a couple of years ago. According to CDC, more have died of Covid-19, but again that includes untested and people who died of other things. For all we know, Covid-19 has killed less or about the same. The data is all screwed up because of the BS political games.
"The lamestream media is just being dramatic!"

Can you call it a conspiracy to put tracking chips in us so I can complete my bingo card?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:41 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Sorry, missed the decimal point and you obviously missed the point by focusing on a mistake. 140k deaths is more than 10 times as many dead from H1N1, yet 1/15th the number of cases. Nothing to worry about.
CDC says 10 times more people have had it than the numbers show. Which means the death rate is much lower than the numbers show.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:41 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
80,000 people died of the flu a couple of years ago. According to CDC, more have died of Covid-19, but again that includes untested and people who died of other things.
No it doesn't. Someone run over by a car isn't counted as a COVID death.

Quote:
For all we know, Covid-19 has killed less or about the same. The data is all screwed up because of the BS political games.
Your claim.

I've asked you why it's so inconvenient to wear a mask to protect others. Can you answer?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:42 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
... Real number of deaths from Covid-19 will more than likely be adjusted down sometime in the future when they remove the unconfirmed cases and people who died of other things, but tested positive for Covid-19.
That seems extremely unlikely when excess deaths numbers appear to be running ahead of Covid-19-related deaths. Is it your suspicion that there has been a spike in motorcycle deaths during lockdown?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:43 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No it doesn't. Someone run over by a car isn't counted as a COVID death.
Belz he's trying to "gotcha" you here, be careful.

There's been a tiny handful of cases of questionable "Covid adjacent" deaths that got lumped into official Covid numbers.

Nowhere near enough to change the overall numbers, but it's what the "It's no big deal" psychopaths have latched onto to prove we're being over-dramatic about it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:43 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"The lamestream media is just being dramatic!"

Can you call it a conspiracy to put tracking chips in us so I can complete my bingo card?
I don't think it is a conspiracy. I just think it's blown out of proportion because people got scared and overreacted. All I have done is show the numbers. Is math a conspiracy theory too? About .04% of the USA population has died from Covid-19 according to the CDC inflated (intentional or not) numbers.

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:44 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Belz he's trying to "gotcha" you here, be careful.
I know and I don't care. He can't possibly demonstrate that a significant number of cases exist. He's just repeating talking points.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:45 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No it doesn't. Someone run over by a car isn't counted as a COVID death.



Your claim.

I've asked you why it's so inconvenient to wear a mask to protect others. Can you answer?
Someone who died in a crash was counted as Covid-19 and there are many more instances of similiar confirmed stories. Nurses and doctors have said they are being encouraged to put Covid-19 when there has not even been lab work.

I don't think healthy people should be forced to cover our faces. It's just a personal opinion. That's all.

Even if the numbers are 100% accurate and every listed death was actually from Covid-19, that is only about 0.04% of the USA population. We will be fine. Take reasonable precautions. Shutting everything down, operating at reduced levels, forced mask, house arrest for not signing quarantine papers, etc is not reasonable precautions.

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:45 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I don't think it is a conspiracy. I just think it's blown out of proportion because people got scared and overreacted. All I have done is show the numbers. Is math a conspiracy theory too? About .04% of the USA population has died from Covid-19 according to the CDC inflated (wether intentional or not) numbers.
No, you manipulated the numbers. Showing the number of deaths for people who have had it, not for the overall population, is the correct way to determine severity.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:46 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I know and I don't care. He can't possibly demonstrate that a significant number of cases exist. He's just repeating talking points.
Oh I know. I've heard of like two or three cases of a "Person who obviously died of something else but by chance had COVID being presented as a COVID death" which is so meaningless insignificant as to be laughable to even allude to.

To the conspiratorial mind that just proves the "numbers are inflated."
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:47 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Someone who died in a crash was counted as Covid-19
Evidence? And try to make sure that it points to a significant number, not isolated cases.

Quote:
I don't think healthy people should be forced to cover our faces. It's just a personal opinion.
Based on what? Doctors wear masks for hours on end in the operation room and they're not more sick than other people.

You're just choosing to believe a theory about health issues because wearing the mask is uncomfortable. Tough luck. Think about other people and wear the damned thing.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:49 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Someone who died in a crash was counted as Covid-19 and there are many more instances of similiar confirmed stories.
Called it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:52 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I don't think healthy people should be forced to cover our faces. It's just a personal opinion. That's all.
"I don't think healthy people should be forced to not lick plague rats and put them in salad bar at Golden Corral. It's just a personal opinion. That's all."
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:53 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I know and I don't care. He can't possibly demonstrate that a significant number of cases exist. He's just repeating talking points.
No, what I did was do some math and show CDC numbers. I then drew conclusions from that data. I could be wrong (and will adjust my opinion if later data shows something of concern), but so could you.

Are you just repeating liberal talking points? Again, I can't stand Trump.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:53 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
No, what I did was do some math and show CDC numbers. I then drew conclusions from that data. I could be wrong (and will adjust my opinion if later data shows something of concern), but so could you.
Then show me your data and calculations, please.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:55 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Then show me your data and calculations, please.
I did. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=187

Population of USA: 328.2 million (in 2019 according to Google)

Deaths from Covid-19: 142,755 (Both confirmed and presumed according to CDC)

Percentage of USA population dead from presumed and confirmed cases: 0.04349634% (According to calculator)

I think we will be fine.

Also, I hate Trump.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:56 AM   #222
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It's simply the most recent public manifestation of "You can't tell Me what to do!" delusion.

This never made it out of school into the public notice, but there were many cops that resisted/refused to wear concealable body armor when it entered into general law enforcement duty use - even something as fundamental as being protected in the event of being shot in the torso couldn't overcome the objections to "YCTMWTD" and weight/comfort issues associated with soft body armor. I didn't dig wearing it then and don't like it any better now but given the alternative, I'll put it on
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:06 PM   #223
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Fact CDC says they include presumed (unconfirmed) cases. There are also places where if you get tested more than 1 time and test positive more than 1 time, it counts as multiple cases.

This stuff is all easily confirmed. I thought you people were smart? Oh that's right, you are all just repeating talking points. Call anyone who disagrees a conspiracy theorist Trump supporter. Even if they show facts.

Again, Trump is an idiot and I hope Biden kicks his ass on election day. Time to get back to normal. Take reasonable precautions just like we always should. Apparently people just learned to wash their hands. Hell, I learned that before I ever went to school.

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:14 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Belz he's trying to "gotcha" you here, be careful.

There's been a tiny handful of cases of questionable "Covid adjacent" deaths that got lumped into official Covid numbers.

Nowhere near enough to change the overall numbers, but it's what the "It's no big deal" psychopaths have latched onto to prove we're being over-dramatic about it.
CDC says something like 10 times as many people have had it than the numbers show. Which means the death rate is even lower than the numbers show. Unless you think the actual deaths are 10 times higher?

That's all I have to say. Go ahead, say what you want about me. I don't care what idiots on the internet think of me. I showed the math. I got the info from the CDC. It's that simple.

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:22 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
How does that support your contention that many deaths are attributed to COVID that shouldn't?
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:23 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Fact CDC says they include presumed (unconfirmed) cases. There are also places where if you get tested more than 1 time and test positive more than 1 time, it counts as multiple cases
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
CDC says something like 10 times as many people have had it than the numbers show. Which means the death rate is even lower than the numbers show. Unless you think the actual deaths are 10 times higher?
Which one is it?
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:26 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How does that support your contention that many deaths are attributed to COVID that shouldn't?
Again, CDC admits they include unconfirmed cases. They also have said they include those who died of other things, but tested positive or are presumed to have Covid-19.

There are many stories of people listed as Covid-19 when dying in a crash or of something else and never being tested. All easily confirmed.

I swear a lot of you are no where near as smart as you think you are. Go ahead, continue with your talking points.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:27 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which one is it?
Not sure what you are not understanding.

CDC says cases are 10 times more than shown. Deaths include presumed cases. Got a problem with that, then take it up with the CDC. If you don't understand then I can't help.

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Old 24th July 2020, 12:31 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How does that support your contention that many deaths are attributed to COVID that shouldn't?
It doesn't and I never said that those calculations did.

Things I mentioned in other post support what I have said and come from the CDC. What are you not understanding?

Still don't understand? Go back and read. It's all there in very simple language.

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:32 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
Again, CDC admits they include unconfirmed cases. They also have said they include those who died of other things, but tested positive or are presumed to have Covid-19.
Now you're all over the place. You're talking about deaths or cases?

Quote:
There are many stories of people listed as Covid-19 when dying in a crash or of something else and never being tested. All easily confirmed.
"Many" doesn't mean anything unless you can turn it into a statistic.

Quote:
I swear a lot of you are no where near as smart as you think you are.
Intelligence has nothing to do with whether you're correct.

You know, I'm starting to think that your participation in this thread is just an excuse to be a jerk to everybody. Stay on topic. The topic is not me.

Quote:
CDC says cases are 10 times more than shown.
Again: which is it? Is it the active cases that are more than the confirmed ones, or the real cases that are higher than the active ones? What are you talking about?

Quote:
Deaths include presumed cases.
That doesn't make any sense.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:33 PM   #231
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:33 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
It doesn't and I never said that those calculations did.
You were replying to my request that you support that claim, not another one.

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What are you not understanding?
Ironic.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:38 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Now you're all over the place. You're talking about deaths or cases?



"Many" doesn't mean anything unless you can turn it into a statistic.



Intelligence has nothing to do with whether you're correct.

You know, I'm starting to think that your participation in this thread is just an excuse to be a jerk to everybody. Stay on topic. The topic is not me.



Again: which is it? Is it the active cases that are more than the confirmed ones, or the real cases that are higher than the active ones? What are you talking about?



That doesn't make any sense.
If I've been "all over the place" then I apologize. It's only from trying to respond to different people and not realizing there are people here who do not understand simple things straight from the CDC.

Presumed cases are included in the death counts (according to the CDC). Presumed is defined by the CDC as cases that were never tested and confirmed. Got a problem with that, then take it up with the CDC.

CDC also says that number of cases is probably something like 10 times higher than the numbers of cases they show. That means that even if the number of deaths were all confirmed cases, then the death rate is much lower than it would seem by looking at the official numbers.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 12

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Old 24th July 2020, 12:41 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
If I've been "all over the place" then I apologize.
Maybe you are no where near as smart as you think you are, eh?

Quote:
It's only from trying to respond to different people and not realizing there are people here who do not understand simple things straight from the CDC.
Sorry, but stating something to be true doesn't make it true. At this juncture I have no idea if what you say is true or if it's just your biased interpretation. Hell, I don't even know exactly what you're saying.

Quote:
Presumed cases are included in the death counts (according to the CDC).
Source, please.

Quote:
Presumed is defined by the CDC as cases that were never tested and confirmed.
Then how would they even be counted?

Quote:
CDC also says that number of cases is probably something like 10 times higher than the numbers of cases they show.
No, they're saying that it may be up to 10 times higher.

Quote:
How can any well functioning adult not understand this very simple concept?
Do you have a problem with having a conversation where you don't throw insults with every post?

Sort your own damned ideas and claims before you complain about other people not understanding them.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:43 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Woah, 140k deaths out of 4 million cases is not 35%. It's 3.5%.
What's an order of magnitude among friends?
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:47 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe you are no where near as smart as you think you are, eh?



Sorry, but stating something to be true doesn't make it true. At this juncture I have no idea if what you say is true or if it's just your biased interpretation. Hell, I don't even know exactly what you're saying.



Source, please.




https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...es-deaths.html

"As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths"

Probable (According to CDC)

"no confirmatory laboratory testing performed for COVID19"
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:50 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
I did. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=187

Population of USA: 328.2 million (in 2019 according to Google)

Deaths from Covid-19: 142,755 (Both confirmed and presumed according to CDC)

Percentage of USA population dead from presumed and confirmed cases: 0.04349634% (According to calculator)
From an epidemiological perspective, it's not meaningful to divide the deaths by the total population at this point in the progression. A large portion of the population hasn't been exposed to the virus, and it's still actively spreading. A more appropriate measure at this juncture is to look at the death rate relative to confirmed cases: 145,000 / 4,000,000 = 3.6%.

After the virus has run it's course and either been eradicated or become endemic, then we can look at the deaths per population as a statistic. At the moment though, it doesn't have any relevance.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:50 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post



Then how would they even be counted?


Ask the CDC.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:51 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
From an epidemiological perspective, it's not meaningful to divide the deaths by the total population at this point in the progression. A large portion of the population hasn't been exposed to the virus, and it's still actively spreading. A more appropriate measure at this juncture is to look at the death rate relative to confirmed cases: 145,000 / 4,000,000 = 3.6%.

After the virus has run it's course and either been eradicated or become endemic, then we can look at the deaths per population as a statistic. At the moment though, it doesn't have any relevance.
There have not been 145,000 confirmed deaths. The CDC admits this. Yes, in my calculation that shows about .04% of USA population dead, I used their numbers, but that includes unconfirmed cases. It's the only numbers they have though, so I have to use them.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...es-deaths.html

"As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths"

Probable (According to CDC)

"no confirmatory laboratory testing performed for COVID19"

Have any of you actually read the CDC site or are you just going by what the TV, YouTube, Facebook, other people on the internet, and friends say? Have any of you actually read the entire statements made by Dr Fauci and others or are you just going by portions that the media reads? Have any of you actually watched the entire press conferences or are you just going by clips showed on the news?

Last edited by mike81; 24th July 2020 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:57 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
There have not been 145,000 confirmed deaths. The CDC admits that.
I understand that, but at the moment it's the best we've got. We know that some of the 145K are presumed (usually with good reason). WE also know that there are deaths that have occurred that are probably from COVID, and have NOT been recorded as such, nor have been presumed as such. The same thing is true for case counts. Some of the cases counted are duplicate or are false positives, but we also know that there are cases that have not been tested and reported at all.

The best we have right now is a reasonable approximation based on the best available information.

The fatality rate (deaths versus positive cases) throughout most of the world has ranged between about 2% and 5%. Those numbers are very sensitive to the volume of testing being done, with the death rate being higher in areas that are doing less testing, and lower in areas doing more testing. The higher the volume of testing, the more mild cases are caught and identified as being COVID-19. The lower the volume of testing, the more likely it is that only severe cases will be reported.
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