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Tags language , racial slurs , racism issues , semantics , Stephen Hagan

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Old 24th July 2020, 10:17 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The cheese is being marketed in Australia, so I donít think Americans are going to be too worried, whatever their skin colour.

The term is certainly known as a racial epithet in the UK (see the video I linked earlier), though Iíve not heard it used for many years (outside re-broadcasts of old material). Whether it is known in Oz is surely the crucial point, though it could be a generational thing; Iím pretty sure Till Death Us Do Part would have been shown there. The fact that a name change has been proposed suggests that at least some people know about it.
In the current global market of ideas it's also easy for someone in one country to claim to be offended at something in another country.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:33 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
White people or black people?

That's kind of important, because otherwise white people are just assuming that black people _should_ be offended by the brand name.
The activist whoís been campaigning to change the name for 20 years or so happens to be black.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...iminate-racism
Quote:
The Australian cheese brand Coon will change its name to help ďeliminate racismĒ following a campaign stating the product name was offensive to Indigenous Australians.

Fridayís announcement by Saputo, the dairy company that owns Coon, ďto retire the Coon brand nameĒ, comes after a decades-long effort to rename the cheese, including an unsuccessful 1999 complaint to the Australian Human Rights Commission from Indigenous activist Dr Stephen Hagan.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:40 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The activist whoís been campaigning to change the name for 20 years or so happens to be black.

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...iminate-racism
Yeah, I mean in general.

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:11 AM   #124
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I wouldn't mind buying "Whitey's Cream Cheese -- it's the whitest!"

Or a car accessory: "Honky's Auto Horns -- they will hear from you!"
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:16 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, I mean in general.

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?
This is one of the biggest canarrds used by racists to defend their idiocy. "My mate Chalky doesn't mind it." Who are you, Jim Davidson?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:19 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why are you assuming not only that black people are offended by a brand name without checking, but that they might get violent on me just for asking the question?
Racism, prejudging people based on their race. Positively or negatively, it's still racism.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:21 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by PursuedByABear View Post
This is one of the biggest canarrds used by racists to defend their idiocy. "My mate Chalky doesn't mind it." Who are you, Jim Davidson?
Do you have an actual point to make? What is it, specifically, that you disagree with in my post?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:22 AM   #128
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But isn't the Ozzy word 'coon' an aboriginal word to begin with?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:22 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, I mean in general.

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?
If I'm going to say something offensive, I really don't care who it offends..

What would be the point in basing one's offensive statements on such criteria?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:23 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, I mean in general.

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?

You asked if black people were objecting. Iíve shown that they are.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:24 AM   #131
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Niggardly Niggardly Niggardly. We went through that one a few years ago.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:24 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But isn't the Ozzy word 'coon' an aboriginal word to begin with?
Why would you think that?
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

You asked if black people were objecting. Iíve shown that they are.
No, you've shown a single data point.

Do you understand the point in the post you quoted?

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
If I'm going to say something offensive, I really don't care who it offends..

What would be the point in basing one's offensive statements on such criteria?
I believe I've made the point clear: if you assume that word X is going to offend people of group A but the only people complaining are people of group B, why should anyone assume that people A really are offended? Indirect offense is even less convincing than direct offense.
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Old 24th July 2020, 11:32 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Sherman Bay View Post
I wouldn't mind buying "Whitey's Cream Cheese -- it's the whitest!"

Or a car accessory: "Honky's Auto Horns -- they will hear from you!"
I would be offended by that. Just like I'm outraged every time I see the "cracker" aisle in the supermarket.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:04 PM   #135
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Thanks to Jelle's Marble Runs, I now know that in the UK there's a milk brand named Cravendale. Apparently the cows which inhabit this dale are contemptibly lacking in courage.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:09 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I knew about the redskins from the team that was probably right to change.

I'd never heard of chicos or the connotations.

I have a feeling the Kentucky area were quite reliant on slave labour and in the US there is connotations around fried chicken apparently

Anyone up for a group forcing KFC to change?

I'll do up a petition.
KFC was the change. They stopped using the full name years ago, though I think that was with regard to the negative health connotations surrounding 'Fried'
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:11 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
KFC was the change. They stopped using the full name years ago, though I think that was with regard to the negative health connotations surrounding 'Fried'
Oh come on everyone knows it's because KFC breed a special race of mutant poultry with extra drumsticks and the FDA wouldn't let them call it "chicken" anymore.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:17 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you have an actual point to make? What is it, specifically, that you disagree with in my post?
Pretty much all of it, and everything you have said. It's nonsense. it's a defence used by racists to justify their racism. "Black people don't complain about the way we treat them" was said by every white man who ever stood over a black man with a gun threatening to shoot him if he complained.

It's just them Northern college boys comin' down here stirrin' 'em up, isn't it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:20 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by PursuedByABear View Post
Pretty much all of it, and everything you have said. It's nonsense. it's a defence used by racists to justify their racism. "Black people don't complain about the way we treat them" was said by every white man who ever stood over a black man with a gun threatening to shoot him if he complained.

It's just them Northern college boys comin' down here stirrin' 'em up, isn't it.
I asked you if you had any specific disagreement on this:

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?

Do you? If so, please make ACTUAL arguments, not blanket accusations.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:22 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I asked you if you had any specific disagreement on this:

Look at it this way: If you posted something a thread and someone said "hey, this is offensive to Belz...", wouldn't you rather hear it from me? Or if someone claimed to me that something I post was offensive to you, would you not rather someone not speak out in your stead?

Do you? If so, please make ACTUAL arguments, not blanket accusations.
I don't need to make arguments against your outdated rubbish. They've all been made, over the course of decades. You are wilfully ignoring them. Not for one minute do I think you are simply ignorant.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:25 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by PursuedByABear View Post
I don't need to make arguments against your outdated rubbish.
Outdated? What are you talking about?

Do you think for one second that I would chastise another poster for saying something that I think is offensive to you? No. I'd let you tell that poster yourself.

The issue is that people like you are DECIDING for black people what they should be offended by. It's just another form of the same racism that's existed in the US since even before the revolution.

Quote:
Not for one minute do I think you are simply ignorant.
Go ahead and say it clearly, then. What am I? Come on. You're dying to say it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:38 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
White people or black people?

That's kind of important, because otherwise white people are just assuming that black people _should_ be offended by the brand name.
I am white. I wouldn't by the product because I find the name offensive. My assumption is my spouse would dislike and/or be offended.

My spouse is black. I just asked if she would like me to buy that product. The look I got was one that said I was in danger of spousal wrath while she responded "No."

"Why not?"

"What's wrong with you? The name."


I wonder if this satisfies you?
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:39 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
As, no doubt, the many, many white people called Black.....

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but several years ago I read that the majority of Americans named Black are white, and the majority of Americans named White are black.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:42 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I wonder if this satisfies you?
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

I'm looking for something more general and statistical. I thought that was obvious.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:50 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I saw it in a discussion about this name-change in another place online.





Anyone else here think "Coon is a racist name" is like general vernacular in Australia?

Mr Nay is from the UK and he immediately recoiled when he first saw it in the supermarket.

I've known since I was a kid that the name is just wrong, like Golliwogs and the N word. Everybody seems to know.

So how do you feel about people whose last name is Coon? Or a homophone such as Kuhn? Should they change their names because someone might be offended, especially if they only overheard a snippet of a conversation where it came up? As I mentioned in FC, I'm named (indirectly) for Robert E. Lee, and it has crossed my mind that I should consider changing it, but I've pretty well made up my mind that I'm not going to.
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Old 24th July 2020, 12:56 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

I'm looking for something more general and statistical. I thought that was obvious.
It wasn't, since you didn't seem discount previous anecdotes. Then again, I haven't made a study of your posts in this thread.

I doubt there are actual statistics on racial differences of perception of 'coon cheese.' It is a nonsensical requirement.

I have absolutely no doubt that if I asked my spouse's family and friends the same question, virtually every person would respond similarly. No doubt some would think I was working at starting a fight.

I have absolutely no doubt that if I asked my side of the family there would be similar angst.

Distant relatives, on discovering the product name, would relish the prospect of using it over much while claiming no racist intent, similar to some in this thread. When last I saw them was at my grandmothers' funeral 25 years ago, where they loudly whispered similar non-racist comments about my spouse and family.

While I generally think you are thoughtful, in this case you are tremendously off base trying to be 'reasonable.' You are far from it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:06 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I'm sure if the founder had been a German immigrant who'd anglosised his family's name from Kuntz they'd have changed it already.

Many years ago in Fort Wayne we had long-serving and well-respected mayor named Harry BaalsWP, whose name was pronounced like "hairy balls." There was a minor controversy a while back because there was a movement to name the new city hall after him, but that was nixed by the city government, for obvious reasons. Today his descendants still use the same spelling, but they pronounce their name like "bales."
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:11 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If the founder of your product was named Hitler, even if not related to Adolf, it would be best to change your productís name from ďHitlerís Heavenly Cheese BitsĒ to something else.

Hitler has some collateral descendants living in the US. They changed their family name shortly after the war.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:17 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I doubt there are actual statistics on racial differences of perception of 'coon cheese.' It is a nonsensical requirement.
It's not nonsensical. We can argue about it until the cows come home, but a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people doesn't really speak to me. Remember the Redskins nonsense? Turns out most NAs didn't care about it.

Quote:
I have absolutely no doubt that if I asked my spouse's family and friends the same question, virtually every person would respond similarly. No doubt some would think I was working at starting a fight.
And?

Quote:
While I generally think you are thoughtful, in this case you are tremendously off base trying to be 'reasonable.'
I'm not "trying" anything. Your perspective is not inevitable.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:18 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not nonsensical. We can argue about it until the cows come home, but a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people .
I already told you above, I am not offended on behalf of anyone.

I am offended on behalf of myself.

Stop with this mischaracterization.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:20 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I already told you above, I am not offended on behalf of anyone.

I am offended on behalf of myself.

Stop with this mischaracterization.
Where exactly did I mention you? You speak of mischaracterisation but I wasn't even talking to you, or about you.

Also, why are you offended by the brand name, exactly? If it's really on your own behalf, how is it offending you specifically?
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:29 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
The brand is named after its founder, Edward Coon, a man who's name has Scottish connections that in no way is a slur on POC. It is probably derived from McCune, McCowan or McCone.
....
According to this, the company was founded by Fred Walker, an Australian businessman who created Vegemite. The cheese is made by a process invented by the American Edward Coon, who apparently operated dairies but didn't sell cheese under that name. So the Australian Coon brand was not created by anybody named Coon, the name has no Australian connection, and the company has been through several changes of ownership, including getting sold by Kraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese

Is Coon really the only name they can use for cheddar cheese in Australia? Or is it maybe smart for a marketer not to make consumers mad?
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:34 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not nonsensical. We can argue about it until the cows come home, but a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people doesn't really speak to me. Remember the Redskins nonsense? Turns out most NAs didn't care about it.
I get your argument. And what you're stating I often see it expressed in groups on the ends of political spectrum (left and right) and it reeks of imperialism and paternalism.

I do happen to think this particular case is just a company wanting to clean-up their own back yard BEFORE the neighbors come to them with a complaint.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:35 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
I get your argument. And what you're stating I often see it expressed in groups on the ends of political spectrum (left and right) and it reeks of imperialism and paternalism.
Could you clarify what the blazes either imperialism or paternalism have to do with being offended by proxy?

Quote:
I do happen to think this particular case is just a company wanting to clean-up their own back yard BEFORE the neighbors come to them with a complaint.
Quite possibly.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:53 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Could you clarify what the blazes either imperialism or paternalism have to do with being offended by proxy?
Will try to give it a go...
The unchosen proxy often incorrectly assumes that a group has no agency, education, or power to speak up for themselves or to understand the "correct" way to go about things so they will step up and do it for them.

What do the kids call it?..."white knighting"
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:54 PM   #156
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People here grew up with Coon Cheese. There’s a packet in our refrigerator. I know I don’t purchase it thinking that I’m offending anyone. Australians are (or at least have been) pretty laid back about things like this and, before the name change, I haven’t noticed any call to change it. It’s just a product name so no big deal.

There are plenty of things that need to be done to improve outcomes for many indigenous people, but I doubt that too many would put a 100 year old product name in the top 100.

I think the name change is stupid and will do nothing at all of material benefit. Tokenism is not what the majority of indigenous people want. I won’t be searching out the renamed cheese (it isn’t even that good, we have it for the grand children, who like it).
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:16 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Will try to give it a go...
The unchosen proxy often incorrectly assumes that a group has no agency, education, or power to speak up for themselves or to understand the "correct" way to go about things so they will step up and do it for them.

What do the kids call it?..."white knighting"
Isn't that what I'm describing others doing, rather than what I'm doing?
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:18 PM   #158
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Haven’t bought it because I was uncomfortable with the name.
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:22 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
People here grew up with Coon Cheese. Thereís a packet in our refrigerator. I know I donít purchase it thinking that Iím offending anyone. Australians are (or at least have been) pretty laid back about things like this and, before the name change, I havenít noticed any call to change it. Itís just a product name so no big deal.

There are plenty of things that need to be done to improve outcomes for many indigenous people, but I doubt that too many would put a 100 year old product name in the top 100.

I think the name change is stupid and will do nothing at all of material benefit. Tokenism is not what the majority of indigenous people want. I wonít be searching out the renamed cheese (it isnít even that good, we have it for the grand children, who like it).
I grew up with cheese and the racist name for aborigines. Good times. Wont someone think of the grand children though. The white ones obviously.
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:23 PM   #160
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Won't someone think of the strawmen?
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