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Old 24th July 2020, 02:48 PM   #1
cullennz
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Making peace with the establishment

Sorry for the odd thread.

Taking one of those stupid web tests to let you know your political leanings just for amusement

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/en

One of the questions is

""Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity."

Answer choices

Strongly disagree
Disagree
Agree
Strongly agree

I have no idea what it means. Is it an American thing?
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:00 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Sorry for the odd thread.

Taking one of those stupid web tests to let you know your political leanings just for amusement

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test/en

One of the questions is

""Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity."

Answer choices

Strongly disagree
Disagree
Agree
Strongly agree

I have no idea what it means. Is it an American thing?
Its the idea that those who gain a degree of financial security with age dismiss the inherent unfairness in our broken economic system.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:09 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Its the idea that those who gain a degree of financial security with age dismiss the inherent unfairness in our broken economic system.


You would think they could just write that.

Pretty stupid question then.

Mind you as always most are on it.

Apparently I am slightly left and slightly libertarian
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Its the idea that those who gain a degree of financial security with age dismiss the inherent unfairness in our broken economic system.
Utterly nailed. Nominated.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:27 PM   #5
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I took that quiz but I think I must have messed up, it said I was in Hufflepuff.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:45 PM   #6
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F the establishment!
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:46 PM   #7
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Old 26th July 2020, 01:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Its the idea that those who gain a degree of financial security with age dismiss the inherent unfairness in our broken economic system.
Let me see if I can re-word that... Its the idea that those who gain responsibilties with age dismiss the pie-in-the-sky dreams of their youth.

You know, things like getting a job to feed yourself and your kids. Welcome to Xanadu, kids.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:21 PM   #9
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Going against the establishment just because it's the establishment is just being a contrarian. "LOL I'm not a sheep and I think for myself, I always swim against the current" and all variations of same, when presented as the sole argument, hasn't been used to defend anything except pure stupidity for a while now.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:29 PM   #10
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Equally useless and destructive an attitude is "I got mine, so F.U."
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Equally useless and destructive an attitude is "I got mine, so F.U."
No arguments on that.

My point was only if you have valid problems with "the establishment" you can (or at least should be able to) verbalize what the problems are beyond "it's the establishment."

"Here's my arguments (with facts to support it) about systematic racism, unfair labor practices, etc, etc, and so forth" is one thing.

"Can't nobody tell me not to poke a hot sewing needle in my eye! In fact I'm going to do it just to spite the people who are telling me not to do it, indeed to spite the people are even telling me 'I'm not going to force you not to stick a hot sewing needle in your eye, I'm just going to tell you it's probably not a good idea' and anyone who doesn't poke themselves in the eye with a hot sewing needle just to spite 'the man' in a sheep!' is entirely another.
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Old 26th July 2020, 03:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No arguments on that.

My point was only if you have valid problems with "the establishment" you can (or at least should be able to) verbalize what the problems are beyond "it's the establishment."

"Here's my arguments (with facts to support it) about systematic racism, unfair labor practices, etc, etc, and so forth" is one thing.

"Can't nobody tell me not to poke a hot sewing needle in my eye! In fact I'm going to do it just to spite the people who are telling me not to do it, indeed to spite the people are even telling me 'I'm not going to force you not to stick a hot sewing needle in your eye, I'm just going to tell you it's probably not a good idea' and anyone who doesn't poke themselves in the eye with a hot sewing needle just to spite 'the man' in a sheep!' is entirely another.
That's like, your opinion, man. Big Needle got to you, huh?
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Old 27th July 2020, 02:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post


You would think they could just write that.

Pretty stupid question then.

Mind you as always most are on it.

Apparently I am slightly left and slightly libertarian
Did that test a few years ago - came out very slightly right and very slightly libertarian.

That said, I reckon the questions are rigged so that the people who wrote them always come out comfortably in the left libertarian quadrant.
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Old 27th July 2020, 05:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
One of the questions is

""Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity."

Is Trump the establishment? Or is he supposed to be anti-establishment? (Draining the Swamp, the Deep State, etc.) He is definitely immature, but not what I would call "in the left libertarian quadrant".
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Let me see if I can re-word that... Its the idea that those who gain responsibilties with age dismiss the pie-in-the-sky dreams of their youth.

You know, things like getting a job to feed yourself and your kids. Welcome to Xanadu, kids.
That is a much more accurate answer.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:21 AM   #16
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But no more sensible.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:29 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Let me see if I can re-word that... Its the idea that those who gain responsibilties with age dismiss the pie-in-the-sky dreams of their youth.

You know, things like getting a job to feed yourself and your kids. Welcome to Xanadu, kids.
Good thing society isn't making milestones such as buying a home or affording to have children unreachable for larger and larger swaths of the population. It would probably be very destablizing for a society to have generations of people totally uninvested in keeping the system as it exists now.

Looking forward to discovering my inner conservative once I've finished paying my student loans off at 35. Until then I'm a pinko.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:31 AM   #18
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As long as (g)you're not treating either your idealism or your cynicism as a "dump stat" and at least trying to strive for some balance, you're probably doing okay.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:44 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is Trump the establishment? Or is he supposed to be anti-establishment? (Draining the Swamp, the Deep State, etc.) He is definitely immature, but not what I would call "in the left libertarian quadrant".
Took the test, came out Social Libertarian
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:46 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is Trump the establishment? Or is he supposed to be anti-establishment? (Draining the Swamp, the Deep State, etc.) He is definitely immature, but not what I would call "in the left libertarian quadrant".
Not everything is about Trump
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:51 AM   #21
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Does "making peace with the establishment" mean accepting that you can't change the things you wish would change or does it mean ceasing to want to change them?
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But no more sensible.
What are you talking about?

It's entirely sensible. Age tends to mellow people's passions. You can still seek change, but in a way maturity is about becoming more realistic.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:57 AM   #23
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Also when you're young you tend (I said tend, TEND) to feed off of the sort of passion (if you want to look at it positively) or drama (if you want to look at it negatively) that being really active in society tends to foster instead of being just... so worn out and tired and burnout on it.

I mean none of this squares with old people voting per capita in much more massive numbers, but that's because voting doesn't have that passion/drama.
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Old 27th July 2020, 06:59 AM   #24
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Old 27th July 2020, 07:06 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Youth has all the answers, maturity has nothing but questions.
That raises a number of questions, but then I'm getting old.
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Old 27th July 2020, 07:25 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Youth has all the answers, maturity has nothing but questions.
And it's so easy to have the answers when someone else is paying the bills. Revolution is for those with nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Or more commonly, those who don't realize what they will lose till the electricity is turned off for non payment.
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Old 27th July 2020, 09:24 AM   #27
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I remember that test. I took it once when I was pissed off over someone here calling me rightwing. Some of the questions were a little strange, but most made sense to me.

Unsurprisingly, I ended up solidly in the left libertarian quadrant.

I don't think I've necessarily "made peace" with the establishment as I've aged, but I have definitely experienced a severe depletion of energy and a massive growth of ennui, hopelessness, and nihilism. These days, I just pray I die before the grid goes down.
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Old 27th July 2020, 09:33 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And it's so easy to have the answers when someone else is paying the bills. Revolution is for those with nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Or more commonly, those who don't realize what they will lose till the electricity is turned off for non payment.
The most radical people I know are those that deal with these kinds of immediate, practical concerns every day. It's the comfortable, secure people in the suburbs that look down their noses at the idea that things ought to change.
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Old 27th July 2020, 09:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Good thing society isn't making milestones such as buying a home or affording to have children unreachable for larger and larger swaths of the population. It would probably be very destablizing for a society to have generations of people totally uninvested in keeping the system as it exists now.

Looking forward to discovering my inner conservative once I've finished paying my student loans off at 35. Until then I'm a pinko.
Yes, this is exactly something that I've seen said - that the idea that you move right as you get older is because when you're young you don't have much in the way of money to protect, yet when you get older you want to protect the money that you do have. This, of course, falls down if society has moved to a place where a lot of people simply don't have anything to protect.

So the establishment may have scored something of an own-goal by setting society up so that a large number of people can't, for example, afford to buy a house. All it does is mean that those people are less likely to want to support that society.
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Old 27th July 2020, 10:11 AM   #30
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Anyone who knows that their best interests aren't being followed at all by the establishment is betraying their knowledge to support it. Maturity is about dealing with life's personal problems and not quitting. The only place I could see those two things being the same is if you need to conform for some job so you suck it up and agree that the establishment should exist and be expanded.
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Old 27th July 2020, 10:16 AM   #31
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I am assuming the simplistic answer that what is meant by this question is that people are expected to become more conservative in general with age. The presumption of the question is that this is an appropriate progression, rather than a regrettable shrinking of horizons. Do not go gentle.
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Old 27th July 2020, 11:00 AM   #32
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I did enjoy being contrary just for the sake of being contrary when I was younger. I liked dressing in ratty punk clothes and going to the mall on the "nice" side of town, gleefully hoping that my presence would annoy people. I went out of my way to avoid being in "the system" as much as possible, at one point even refusing to rent an apartment if I had to be on the lease. I thought it was artistic and expressive for me to run up to random people on the sidewalk and say things like "There are more colors than you realize!" then run away. If someone told me they thought something was dumb or slutty, I pretty much immediately did that thing, to prove that their ideas of conformity were meaningless and disgusting to me. I was absolutely insufferable the first time I went to college, injecting my contrarian thoughts into class discussions at every opportunity. Weirdly, the only institution I hailed as flawless was the field of psychology. I deeply distrusted anyone who questioned it. I'm not really sure why, other than the fact that I wanted to be a psychologist at that time. But I never had any problem criticizing other things I was a a part of.

Anyway, I've reversed almost all of those sorts of positions with age. I now understand that I wasn't making anyone think about reality, or shaking up their dull existence with my maverick ways. By refusing to buy anything that required paperwork, I wasn't changing anything from within. I was only cutting off my own nose to spite my face. And when I flaunted my tattoos and acted crazy, I wasn't functioning as a piece of living art; I was merely solidifying normal people's prejudices against young tattooed folks. Plus, everyone hates the chatty contrarian in class (including the prof) and psychology isn't evil, but it's actually not that great either, in the sense that all the kinks are far from ironed out. There's room for a LOT of questioning.

Maybe that's the sort of thing the test means, although I doubt it. I think it's referring to conservative economic views.


EDIT: I'm aware of the irony of someone like I described wanting to be a psychologist, by the way, but I think that was the point at the time. I figured people would be better helped by Punk Andy Kaufman than Stiff-Collared Laura with the knick-knacks on her desk. I still kind of think that, actually, on some level, but I no longer have interest in being any part of it myself.
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Old 27th July 2020, 11:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The most radical people I know are those that deal with these kinds of immediate, practical concerns every day. It's the comfortable, secure people in the suburbs that look down their noses at the idea that things ought to change.
Exactly. Why not get radical if someone else takes the burn?

When I was younger, I thought the system was stacked against me and the game board needed to be flipped. Then I found out that mostly I needed to be a little more prudent and not expect things handed to me. Get to work on the long game and all. The deck was not stacked against me nearly as much as I thought.

Change is welcome, and needed. So is perspective. The yahoos tend want plenty of the former but have little of the latter. Many don't realize that what good things they have came from the establishment, including their parents. Lots of room for improvement, but ya, it's not all ready for the dumpster.
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Old 27th July 2020, 11:12 AM   #34
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cullennz, the questions on the test are basically inkblots. Each person taking the test decides for themselves how they interpret it and how they answer it.

You've gotten Sideroxylon's interpretation, which will color how he answers it and where the test ultimately places him on the grid. Now, I disagree entirely with his interpretation, so I'd end up with a different answer and a different placement on the grid.

If they wrote the question in Sid's terms, it would end up enforcing a polarized interpretation instead of giving the respondents more space to decide for themselves what it means.

If you don't understand it and have no interpretation of your own, I'd recommend going with "Disagree", just because you can't agree with something you don't understand.
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Old 27th July 2020, 12:55 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Good thing society isn't making milestones such as buying a home or affording to have children unreachable for larger and larger swaths of the population. It would probably be very destablizing for a society to have generations of people totally uninvested in keeping the system as it exists now.
As other have noted, it is not good for the system that so many feel that they are not part of the system.

"Fredom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

And that sort of freedom among so many people can lead to unexpected places.


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Looking forward to discovering my inner conservative once I've finished paying my student loans off at 35. Until then I'm a pinko.
I just paid mine off as I was getting close to fifty and my kids were graduating with no debt, so I thought it was time to get rid of that old debt. Even though I had refinanced it at some absurdly low rate with auto payment.

I just saw my net worth cut in half by covid's impact on my stock holdings. I have some hope that it will recover, but if it doesn't I will be working more into retirement than I had hoped. I have everything on the table and I'm hoping to walk away soon. I literally have everything to lose. And yet I feel pretty free.

I'm probably more liberal now than I was as a kid.
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Old 27th July 2020, 01:32 PM   #36
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I think, from the context of the test (which I took, I think for a second time, and of course ended up somewhere down in the lower left), it is really about conservative economic and social views. The test is not exactly subtle.
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Old 27th July 2020, 01:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
cullennz, the questions on the test are basically inkblots. Each person taking the test decides for themselves how they interpret it and how they answer it.

You've gotten Sideroxylon's interpretation, which will color how he answers it and where the test ultimately places him on the grid. Now, I disagree entirely with his interpretation, so I'd end up with a different answer and a different placement on the grid.

If they wrote the question in Sid's terms, it would end up enforcing a polarized interpretation instead of giving the respondents more space to decide for themselves what it means.

If you don't understand it and have no interpretation of your own, I'd recommend going with "Disagree", just because you can't agree with something you don't understand.
Given that the test asks the degree to which you agree or disagree with the statement it wouldnít matter if mine was used and the score weight flipped as well. Also if you donít understand a question you are best picking a neutral and therefore zero weighted choice, and I donít think there is one. If not you may as well coin flip agree or disagree.
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Old 27th July 2020, 01:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Youth has all the answers, maturity has nothing but questions.
You sure about that, boomer?
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Old 27th July 2020, 02:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Not everything is about Trump

No, not everything is, but you fail to realize that it was an argument against usefulness of the statement quoted in the OP: "Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity." That Trump is right-wing is pretty obvious, but does he represent the establishment or is he anti-establishment? Is a MAGA hat a sign of maturity or immaturity? Most Maga hat wearers aren't young ...
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Old 27th July 2020, 03:01 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Looking forward to discovering my inner conservative once I've finished paying my student loans off at 35. Until then I'm a pinko.
Dude, I just paid off my student loans, and I'm 46. But you know... I took out loans, they weren't grants. And I used those loans to go to school to get a degree that would let me be self-sufficient. So I figured that paying them back was the responsible thing to do, and I did it without complaint.
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