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Old 28th July 2020, 10:33 AM   #1
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Discussion of violence and property damage

Mod Info This thread has been split from the Biden for President thread where it was off-topic.
Posted By:Agatha






Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The meaning of the word already includes damage to property.

"behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."

"the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy".

I did not mention graffiti in my post which I would not put in the category of violence. I said looting and destroying property which are violent.

Let me point out again that I am not saying there is no police violence against the protesters as there most certainly is. But the original topic to which I posted was that the violence we're seeing in places like Portland from the looters and those destroying property is hurting the Dems not the Republicans.
Even the definitions you provide are more heavily weighted to "injure, abuse, hurt, kill" which are words that don't really apply to property damage. I'm not saying you are grammatically incorrect, I'm saying that using the word violence to describe things that are done to inanimate objects makes those actions sound more menacing than they are.

"Violent protestors" are a danger to most voters.
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Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 28th July 2020, 11:01 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Even the definitions you provide are more heavily weighted to "injure, abuse, hurt, kill" which are words that don't really apply to property damage. I'm not saying you are grammatically incorrect, I'm saying that using the word violence to describe things that are done to inanimate objects makes those actions sound more menacing than they are.

"Violent protestors" are a danger to most voters.
I gave literal definitions of violence. You are attempting to downplay looting and destruction of property as not being violent. When people use violence to destroy things during a riot by torching cars and buildings, breaking windows and destroying the interiors of businesses, that's pretty damn 'menacing' in my book.

We agree that graffiti isn't violence (which I never claimed in the first place).
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Old 28th July 2020, 12:05 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I gave literal definitions of violence. You are attempting to downplay looting and destruction of property as not being violent. When people use violence to destroy things during a riot by torching cars and buildings, breaking windows and destroying the interiors of businesses, that's pretty damn 'menacing' in my book.

We agree that graffiti isn't violence (which I never claimed in the first place).

Throwing a brick is no different from throwing a baseball. Neither is a problem unless is aimed at someone. A window is not someone.

The violence I'm seeing is being perpetrated by the "police" attacking people. The protesters are largely attacking things. I think that is a distinction that is very pertinent in a society that seems to think certain people are worth less than things.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you. I think we largely agree. I just think it is giving ground where none needs to be given. Property can not be injured, abused, hurt, or killed. People are being injured, abused, hurt, and killed. Maybe I'm drawing an arbitrary line. Maybe we need better language to make that distinction.
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Old 28th July 2020, 12:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Throwing a brick is no different from throwing a baseball. Neither is a problem unless is aimed at someone. A window is not someone.
I think the business owners whose livelihood is being destroyed/damaged would disagree strongly with that. Throwing a baseball or a basketball through a glass window/door of a business in order to loot is a problem and it is using violence.

Quote:
The violence I'm seeing is being perpetrated by the "police" attacking people. The protesters are largely attacking things.
That has never been a point of disagreement between us. It's your insistence that looting and destroying property is not using violence.

Quote:
I think that is a distinction that is very pertinent in a society that seems to think certain people are worth less than things.
I don't disagree with that.

Quote:
I'm not trying to pick an argument with you. I think we largely agree. I just think it is giving ground where none needs to be given. Property can not be injured, abused, hurt, or killed. People are being injured, abused, hurt, and killed. Maybe I'm drawing an arbitrary line. Maybe we need better language to make that distinction.
I think we do largely agree except when it comes to saying that looting and the destruction of property is not violence. There are different levels of violence and that against people is much more serious than that against property. But it is still violence. I think we can put this baby to bed now, don't you?
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Old 28th July 2020, 07:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I gave literal definitions of violence. You are attempting to downplay looting and destruction of property as not being violent. When people use violence to destroy things during a riot by torching cars and buildings, breaking windows and destroying the interiors of businesses, that's pretty damn 'menacing' in my book.



We agree that graffiti isn't violence (which I never claimed in the first place).
While I certainly agree there's a range of alarm at different kinds of violence and various forms are coming from both/many/all sides, graffiti is still violence.

Violence has the same root as violate.

Doing something to someone's property that requires them to have to expend resources to repair/replace it is harming that person. That is a violation. Doing so is an act of violence.

This is an important distinction because at least as recently as a few years ago the "property is theft" and very absolutist interpretation of no such thing as violence involving property was a feature of antifa orthodoxy.

I often wonder lately what the anarchist/antifa edge (they did blur together in places I covered) that was so omnipresent during later stages of the Occupy movement are thinking lately. By self-affiliation their recruitment is in the millions. But do they have the lament we all have when our little counter-culture niche interest suddenly becomes a big tent that means whatever each person wants it to?

Do they get upset when people patiently explain to their friends how "defund the police" is really complicated and nobody actually means disbanding all police forever?

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 28th July 2020 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 28th July 2020, 07:47 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
While I certainly agree there's a range of alarm at different kinds of violence and various forms are coming from both/many/all sides, graffiti is still violence.

Violence has the same root as violate.

Doing something to someone's property that requires them to have to expend resources to repair/replace it is harming that person. That is a violation. Doing so is an act of violence.

This is an important distinction because at least as recently as a few years ago the "property is theft" and very absolutist interpretation of no such thing as violence involving property was a feature of antifa orthodoxy.

I often wonder lately what the anarchist/antifa edge (they did blur together in places I covered) that was so omnipresent during later stages of the Occupy movement are thinking lately. By self-affiliation their recruitment is in the millions. But do they have the lament we all have when our little counter-culture niche interest suddenly becomes a big tent that means whatever each person wants it to?

Do they get upset when people patiently explain to their friends how "defund the police" is really complicated and nobody actually means disbanding all police forever?
Buzz....Wrong answer!

I despise graffiti....with a passion.

That said, it is NOT..NOT..NOT...or ever will be violence.

Violence is a threat or an assault against a physical person. PERIOD.

Graffiti is a property crime.
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Old 28th July 2020, 09:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Buzz....Wrong answer!

I despise graffiti....with a passion.

That said, it is NOT..NOT..NOT...or ever will be violence.
Agreed.

Quote:
Violence is a threat or an assault against a physical person. PERIOD.
Looting and setting things on fire is a violent act.

Quote:
Graffiti is a property crime.
Agreed.
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Old 28th July 2020, 10:00 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
While I certainly agree there's a range of alarm at different kinds of violence and various forms are coming from both/many/all sides, graffiti is still violence.

Violence has the same root as violate.


Doing something to someone's property that requires them to have to expend resources to repair/replace it is harming that person. That is a violation. Doing so is an act of violence.

This is an important distinction because at least as recently as a few years ago the "property is theft" and very absolutist interpretation of no such thing as violence involving property was a feature of antifa orthodoxy.

I often wonder lately what the anarchist/antifa edge (they did blur together in places I covered) that was so omnipresent during later stages of the Occupy movement are thinking lately. By self-affiliation their recruitment is in the millions. But do they have the lament we all have when our little counter-culture niche interest suddenly becomes a big tent that means whatever each person wants it to?

Do they get upset when people patiently explain to their friends how "defund the police" is really complicated and nobody actually means disbanding all police forever?
Hysterectomy has the same root as hysteria. In reality, the two are not related.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:43 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Do they get upset when people patiently explain to their friends how "defund the police" is really complicated and nobody actually means disbanding all police forever?
Change "nobody" with the "for the vast majority it does not."

There are absolutely people who say "abolish the police."
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:48 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hysterectomy has the same root as hysteria. In reality, the two are not related.
Mmmmmm... they actually are. Hysteria was believed to be caused by the uterus dislodging itself and wandering around a woman's body, causing her to be rebellious and outspoken and not the ideal quiet subservient woman. The connection to something more like mania was made later.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Mmmmmm... they actually are. Hysteria was believed to be caused by the uterus dislodging itself and wandering around a woman's body, causing her to be rebellious and outspoken and not the ideal quiet subservient woman. The connection to something more like mania was made later.
Yes, I know that but I was referring to the fact that just because two words have a common root, they are not necessarily related in the way that Delphic Oracle linked violence and violate. Unless one knows the origin of the word 'hysterectomy', they would not think there was any connection to 'hysteria'. The link between 'violence' and 'violate' is pretty apparent.
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Old 29th July 2020, 06:53 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed.







Looting and setting things on fire is a violent act.







Agreed.
How can smashing a window, stealing stuff, and starting fires be violent, but defacing not be?

They both cause the same "damage" to a person in that they must expend resources to be restored to what they had prior to that act.

Smash a window, $200 to replace.

Grafitti a wall, $200 to repaint.

What is the qualitative difference?
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Old 29th July 2020, 06:56 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, I know that but I was referring to the fact that just because two words have a common root, they are not necessarily related in the way that Delphic Oracle linked violence and violate. Unless one knows the origin of the word 'hysterectomy', they would not think there was any connection to 'hysteria'. The link between 'violence' and 'violate' is pretty apparent.
Maybe the point is in both your and my examples, you were unaware of the link.

Moving on.
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Old 29th July 2020, 06:57 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Change "nobody" with the "for the vast majority it does not."



There are absolutely people who say "abolish the police."
That was somewhat my point.

The "old gaurd" grizzled anarchists must be eye-rolling so hard at a lot of this :9.
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Old 29th July 2020, 08:30 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How can smashing a window, stealing stuff, and starting fires be violent, but defacing not be?

They both cause the same "damage" to a person in that they must expend resources to be restored to what they had prior to that act.

Smash a window, $200 to replace.

Grafitti a wall, $200 to repaint.

What is the qualitative difference?

If protestors smash in the back window of a car you are in while jumping on it, but you are not hurt, is that violent, or not violent?

I think I'd rather have them ruin my entire car with graffiti than go through that sort of 'not violence'.
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Old 29th July 2020, 09:10 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
If protestors smash in the back window of a car you are in while jumping on it, but you are not hurt, is that violent, or not violent?



I think I'd rather have them ruin my entire car with graffiti than go through that sort of 'not violence'.
I already addressed scale of offense.

Pointing out more direct forms of violence exist doesn't make other acts not violent. That's actually classic minimization.

Making up a whole new scenario and asking the same question back to me isn't a good faith response.
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Maybe the point is in both your and my examples, you were unaware of the link.

Moving on.
Maybe the point is that you missed my point. I was perfectly aware of them. Moving on.
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Old 29th July 2020, 10:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How can smashing a window, stealing stuff, and starting fires be violent, but defacing not be?

They both cause the same "damage" to a person in that they must expend resources to be restored to what they had prior to that act.

Smash a window, $200 to replace.

Grafitti a wall, $200 to repaint.

What is the qualitative difference?
If you can't see the difference, I don't know how to explain it to you. And if I even tried, you'd just nit pick your way through that. No thanks.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think we can put this baby to bed now, don't you?
Sounds good. Not the right place and not really worth its own thread.
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Old 29th July 2020, 11:54 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If you can't see the difference, I don't know how to explain it to you. And if I even tried, you'd just nit pick your way through that. No thanks.
I don't see the difference between two acts damaging property which both cause a $200 loss.

In both examples, the person so subjected to that loss is not physically present.

You won't explain the difference
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I don't see the difference between two acts damaging property which both cause a $200 loss.

In both examples, the person so subjected to that loss is not physically present.

You won't explain the difference
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12
.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed response to rule-breach


No, it's because nothing I say will make a difference to you and I just don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you. If you honestly cannot see how throwing a brick through a glass window and then looting a store is violent, or overturning and torching a car is violent and that spray painting a building is not, then there is no argument I can make that you will accept. So I just won't bother.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Edited by Agatha:  To comply with previous post




No, it's because nothing I say will make a difference to you and I just don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you. If you honestly cannot see how throwing a brick through a glass window and then looting a store is violent, or overturning and torching a car is violent and that spray painting a building is not, then there is no argument I can make that you will accept. So I just won't bother.


Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12


You have no explanation is fine. I accept your admission of inability to make your point.

Not because "I won't get it."

Because you refuse to even put an argument forward.

Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How can smashing a window, stealing stuff, and starting fires be violent, but defacing not be?

They both cause the same "damage" to a person in that they must expend resources to be restored to what they had prior to that act.

Smash a window, $200 to replace.

Grafitti a wall, $200 to repaint.

What is the qualitative difference?
I think she's wrong on looting. Looting and arson are not acts of violence if the store is unoccupied. If they are occupied, there is a qualitative difference and maybe are. That isn't to say that they may not be serious, just that they are not acts of violence.

That you discuss it in terms of cost highlights that we are talking property crimes.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think she's wrong on looting. Looting and arson are not acts of violence if the store is unoccupied. If they are occupied, there is a qualitative difference and maybe are. That isn't to say that they may not be serious, just that they are not acts of violence.



That you discuss it in terms of cost highlights that we are talking property crimes.
Yeah, dollars don't represent lost time, lost resources, lost energy, or lost sense of physical security of one's hard-worked-for possessions. A lot of the acts described also have potential to mean loss of income security, livelihood, reduced quality-of-life, etc.

When you strip all the things out of it that make it fit the definition of "damage" or "harm" to a person, it sounds like it could just be theoretical numbers on paper.

I used dollar figures to compare two events with equal quantitative values to see if a qualitative difference could be found between them to explain why one is violence and the other not from a person who draws the line between two different acts of "damage" a person is subjected to (not a person who is bodily present).

Your assertion about acts not committed against a person directly is a whole different discussion. I'd prefer not to conflate them.

P.S. this whole tangent probably more properly belongs in the looting/rioting thread, oh well :9

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 29th July 2020 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:45 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think she's wrong on looting. Looting and arson are not acts of violence if the store is unoccupied. If they are occupied, there is a qualitative difference and maybe are. That isn't to say that they may not be serious, just that they are not acts of violence.

That you discuss it in terms of cost highlights that we are talking property crimes.
Looting in and of itself is not violent. The act of throwing something through the window or door is violent.

Violence: "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."

Spray painting graffiti does not take physical force. Physical effort, yes. Force? No. Throwing something through a window takes physical force.

Edited by Agatha:  Removed reference to breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12


You have no explanation is fine. I accept your admission of inability to make your point.

Not because "I won't get it."

Because you refuse to even put an argument forward.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed breach of rule 12
I suggest you take a deep breath. The continued personal attacks do not reflect well on you nor do they change my mind.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:55 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yeah, dollars don't represent lost time, lost resources, lost energy, or lost sense of physical security of one's hard-worked-for possessions. A lot of the acts described also have potential to mean loss of income security, livelihood, reduced quality-of-life, etc.

When you strip all the things out of it that make it fit the definition of "damage" or "harm" to a person, it sounds like it could just be theoretical numbers on paper.

I used dollar figures to compare two events with equal quantitative values to see if a qualitative difference could be found between them to explain why one is violence and the other not from a person who draws the line between two different acts of "damage" a person is subjected to (not a person who is bodily present).

Your assertion about acts not committed against a person directly is a whole different discussion. I'd prefer not to conflate them.

P.S. this whole tangent probably more properly belongs in the looting/rioting thread, oh well :9
Dollars absolutely represents lost time, lost resources, lost energy. All of which can be purchased. The point is to have a word that differentiates between acts that involve bodily harm and acts that involve financial or property matters.
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Old 29th July 2020, 12:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Looting in and of itself is not violent. The act of throwing something through the window or door is violent.



Violence: "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."



Spray painting graffiti does not take physical force. Physical effort, yes. Force? No. Throwing something through a window takes physical force.



Edited by Agatha:  Removed reference to breach of rule 12
How many foot-pounds of torque are required to fit your definition of violence?

You pre-accuse me of nitpicking.

I find it hilarious.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Dollars absolutely represents lost time, lost resources, lost energy. All of which can be purchased. The point is to have a word that differentiates between acts that involve bodily harm and acts that involve financial or property matters.
Okay.

Battery. An act which causes another person physical harm.

Anything else?
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:20 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How many foot-pounds of torque are required to fit your definition of violence?

You pre-accuse me of nitpicking.

I find it hilarious.
Not much since that's the literal dictionary definition of 'violent'.

Violent definition is - marked by the use of usually harmful or destructive physical force.

violent. Something that's violent involves physical force or emotional intensity.

1Behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Okay.

Battery. An act which causes another person physical harm.

Anything else?
Not just assault, but threatening bodily harm, aka "assault".

But maybe you're right. Maybe we shouldn't blur that line. What about graft and cheating people out of their savings? One can be destroyed by that too.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not much since that's the literal dictionary definition of 'violent'.



Violent definition is - marked by the use of usually harmful or destructive physical force.



violent. Something that's violent involves physical force or emotional intensity.



1Behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
Physical force is used throughout both acts described.

I admit there's a difference in "thrust" or "inertial velocity transfered" when comparing throwing a brick vs. pressing on the spray nozzle of a can of paint.

So tell me how many foot-lounds of torque it takes to meet your definition.

Alternatively, compare a 10 pound brick with a 10-pound paint ball thrown at the same window, requiring it to be replaced either way.

You've drawn a line at a very unwieldy point, I feel.
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Old 29th July 2020, 01:51 PM   #33
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Also, this argument has been raging since at least about 1789, so I doubt we're going to break into any new territory or change each others' minds. This is basically the liberals' version of the Great Schism that rears its ugly head in every season of unrest.

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Old 29th July 2020, 02:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Physical force is used throughout both acts described.

I admit there's a difference in "thrust" or "inertial velocity transfered" when comparing throwing a brick vs. pressing on the spray nozzle of a can of paint.

So tell me how many foot-lounds of torque it takes to meet your definition.

Alternatively, compare a 10 pound brick with a 10-pound paint ball thrown at the same window, requiring it to be replaced either way.

You've drawn a line at a very unwieldy point, I feel.
Sigh. If anyone is having to exert "foot-pounds of torque" to twist the dictionary definition of "force" to meet his definition, it sure as hell isn't me.

But this is exactly why I said that nothing I would say would matter to you and that trying to explain would be going down a rabbit hole because you'd just nit-pick at it. You've done exactly that. Which is why I'm no longer discussing this with you. There is no point.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed reference to earlier breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 02:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Sigh. If anyone is having to exert "foot-pounds of torque" to twist the dictionary definition of "force" to meet his definition, it sure as hell isn't me.



But this is exactly why I said that nothing I would say would matter to you and that trying to explain would be going down a rabbit hole because you'd just nit-pick at it. You've done exactly that. Which is why I'm no longer discussing this with you. There is no point.
Edited by Agatha:  Removed reference to breach of rule 12
.
I love how you introduced the concept of different amounts of physical force making the difference in the definition, but when pressed on where that line exactly is, you accuse me of making it about how much force is involved.

It is your premise, if you want to abandon it, okay.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th July 2020 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 02:24 PM   #36
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Biden for Physics teacher?

Cool thread. Sorry I broke it. I promise to be more careful next time.
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Old 29th July 2020, 02:58 PM   #37
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I like how fervently Delphic Oracle pretends there is no difference between smashing windows and graffiti. All he cares is that both those cost 200$ (number obviously pulled out of ass, but whatever).

Window breakage often means start of looting/other destruction inside (therefore even more losses and damage). You cannot graffiti your way inside. This is just little unimportant detail to be ignored by Oracle.
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Old 29th July 2020, 03:14 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I like how fervently Delphic Oracle pretends there is no difference between smashing windows and graffiti. All he cares is that both those cost 200$ (number obviously pulled out of ass, but whatever).

Window breakage often means start of looting/other destruction inside (therefore even more losses and damage). You cannot graffiti your way inside. This is just little unimportant detail to be ignored by Oracle.
You have to break into the Auto Zone to loot more spray paint so you can paint graffiti outside the Auto Zone.
It's a crime of convenience...
Or is that when you break into a 7-11 to get a Slurpie?
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Old 29th July 2020, 03:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I like how fervently Delphic Oracle pretends there is no difference between smashing windows and graffiti. All he cares is that both those cost 200$ (number obviously pulled out of ass, but whatever).
I like how no matter how many times I ask for the difference to be described, it isnt explained. I like how even after explaining the $200 comparison is to eliminate quantitative values to focus on qualitative values, ******** who can't comprehend simple sentences try this character assassination route.

Quote:
Window breakage often means start of looting/other destruction inside (therefore even more losses and damage). You cannot graffiti your way inside. This is just little unimportant detail to be ignored by Oracle.
So we're back to difference in potential scale of damage. A quantitative difference the law will record in dollars.

Who's the one worried about dollars, again?

I'm the one demanding a definition that isn't a number.

I keep getting numbers.

Amount of force (a measurable, quantifiable thing) amount of damage (recorded in dollars).

I repeatedly remove a person as being directly harmed, examples of people nearly being burned to death in their car come back.

This conversation will go nowhere because the context and framing change with every reply.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 29th July 2020 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 29th July 2020, 03:21 PM   #40
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So, when stores got looted in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina was that violence?
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