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#1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16,554
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Gulf War Syndrome caused by sarin gas
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#2 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,746
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arylesterase enzyme deficiency
R W Haley, S Billecke, B N La Du"Association of low PON1 type Q (type A) arylesterase activity with neurologic symptom complexes in Gulf War veterans" Appl Pharmacol. 1999 Jun 15;157(3):227-33. doi: 10.1006/taap.1999.8703. PMID: 10373407
A portion of the abstract reads, "Moreover, low activity of the PON1 type Q (Gln192, formerly designated type A) arylesterase allozyme distinguished ill veterans from controls better than just the PON1 genotype or the activity levels of the type R (Arg192, formerly designated type B) arylesterase allozyme, total arylesterase, total paraoxonase, or butyrylcholinesterase. A history of advanced acute toxicity after taking pyridostigmine was also correlated with low PON1 type Q arylesterase activity. Type Q is the allozyme of paraoxonase/arylesterase that most efficiently hydrolyzes several organophosphates including sarin, soman, and diazinon. These findings further support the proposal that neurologic symptoms in some Gulf War veterans were caused by environmental chemical exposures." Probably the same Dr. Haley as is mentioned in the BBC article. Sounds as if this has been a longstanding research project. |
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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#3 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 102,449
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Wouldn't we then expect to find this syndrome (for want of a better word) in the native populations? I think we can go with the assumption that their exposure would have been longer and at a higher concentration from such bombings? Is there any research into that?
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#4 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 27,068
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 16,554
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__________________
/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#6 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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Actually the correct paper is Evaluation of a Gene–Environment Interaction of PON1 and Low-Level Nerve Agent Exposure with Gulf War Illness: A Prevalence Case–Control Study Drawn from the U.S. Military Health Survey’s National Population Sample Robert W. Haley, Gerald Kramer, Junhui Xiao, Jill A. Dever, and John F. Teiber Published:11 May 2022CID: 057001https://doi.org/10.1289/EHP9009
Quote:
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#7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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The wind blew the plume of sarin from the bombings onto the encamped US army. Yes some natives would be affected, but Allah effectively targeted the US army keeping the Iraqis (and Iranians) safe! I do wonder if the use of pyridostigmine as an antidote which would correlate with nerve gas alarms may also be an issue.
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#8 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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The paper is very convincing. No, diesel contaminated water would not be more likely. The strength of exposure to sarin as measured by number of nerve gas alarms and the genetic polymorphism for metabolising sarin gas both correlate with risk of GWI. Exposure to e.g. diesel fumes does not work. Another gene associated with the one they looked at, or another exposure correlated with sarin gas exposure (such as the antidote) might be an alternative explanation.
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,746
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A line of research from Dr. Haley
Hi Planigale,
The paper you cited is undoubtedly the paper upon which the BBC article was based. My point was that one of the authors (Haley) has been studying this topic for a long time, and the 1999 paper specifically discusses PON1. In fact they 2022 paper cites both this 1999 paper and several others, including one from 2001: La Du BN, Billecke S, Hsu C, Haley RW, Broomfield CA. 2001. Serum paraoxonase (PON1) isozymes: the quantitative analysis of isozymes affecting individual sensitivity to environmental chemicals. Drug Metab Dispos 29(4 Pt 2):566–569, PMID: 11259353. |
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It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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#10 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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#11 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,832
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Quote:
The problem with situations like this is that symptoms can have a variety of causes, so it can be hard to identify a cause that is out of the ordinary. Soldiers have suffered from PTSD in all wars. In this case however, the unusually high incidence and symptom anomalies suggested something out of the ordinary was responsible for a large proportion. Also - unlike some cases of mass psychosis - there were plenty of potential physical causes, one of which was itself out of the ordinary. Ironical that one of the fears in the Iraq War was that Saddam might gas us, when in reality we had already done it to ourselves! |
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We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#12 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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I think that one issue is that there will be gulf war syndromes. One syndrome seems to be minor* brain damage from low level exposure to nerve gas (biologically nerve gases are very similar to pesticides, just with specificity for humans vs insects). Interestingly peripheral nerve damage seems not to be an issue.
PTSD will be a different syndrome. Of course one person might have both. *Accepting that this is not minor to the person concerned, but just in the physical extent of damage as compared with e.g. a bullet. |
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#13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,746
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Measuring uranium isotope ratios via mass spectrometry
Here is a link to another story on this subject.
"Sarin is a toxic man-made nerve agent, first developed as a pesticide, that has been used in chemical warfare; its production was banned in 1997. When people are exposed to either the liquid or gas form, sarin enters the body through the skin or breathing and attacks the nervous system. High-level sarin often results in death, but studies on survivors have revealed that lower-level sarin exposure can lead to long-term impairment of brain function. The U.S. military has confirmed that chemical agents, including sarin, were detected in Iraq during the Gulf War. In particular, satellite imagery documented a large debris cloud rising from an Iraqi chemical weapons storage site bombed by U.S. and coalition aircraft and transiting over U.S. ground troop positions where it set off thousands of nerve gas alarms and was confirmed to contain sarin." From Dr. Haley's 2022 paper: "Two methods of mass spectrometry have been used to detect DU in human urine samples: lower precision sector-field mass spectrometry (SF-ICP-MS) has been used to differentiate DU from NU in Gulf War veterans at 238U/235U ratios above 166; whereas, higher precision multi-collector mass spectrometry (MC-ICP-MS) applied to chemically purified U can detect DU at 238U/235U ratios as low as 140." Inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry is only somewhat familiar to me, but this link might be helpful in getting the essence of it. IIUC this paper rules out depleted uranium (DU) as a possible cause of Gulf War Syndrome EDT I just found a 2018 review article on paraoxonase. "Robust studies are required to clarify the clinical relevance of PON1." This story just keeps getting more complex. |
__________________
It is possible both to be right about an issue and to take oneself a little too seriously, but I would rather be reminded of that by a friend than a foe. (a tip of the hat to Foolmewunz) |
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#14 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,709
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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#15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 49 North
Posts: 5,624
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This is one you cannot blame on the US. Nerve gas manufacture is similar to making pesticides (which was the origin of nerve gases), the chemistry is well understood. It was essentially an indigenous process with precursor chemicals imported. If anyone is to blame it is probably German and Italian companies.
https://nuke.fas.org/guide/iraq/cw/az120103.html |
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