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Old 26th April 2022, 11:43 PM   #1
skepticsalamander
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Wink Astrology Does More Damage Than You May Think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Hg...pticSalamander

The video investigates how astrology pushes similar stereotypes as would racists and other bigots. Hope you enjoy.

Last edited by skepticsalamander; 27th April 2022 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 26th April 2022, 11:47 PM   #2
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Not that I'm inclined to argue with the title, but could you perhaps outline what this video is and what value you find in it? Many people (including me) don't click on bare YouTube links without some kind of summary or explanation of why it is posted.
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Old 27th April 2022, 12:09 AM   #3
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In the Hindu tradition in India, astrology plays a major role in various family events and iundertakings. A persons astrologic chart is drawn almost immediatley after birth (there are now hospitals that will induce/delay delivery to ensure auspicious birth times). This chart becomes a document that will govern various events in the kids life, right from the name he might bare.
Now, one aspect of a document is the dominance of Mars in the astrologic chart and for women this is a big no-no. Women with feature is supposedly bad luck for husbands. In a culture that tends to prioritize the domestic role of women and indoctrinate women into thinking her sole purpose to be a good wife and mother, women with this feature are usually shamed. There have been many cases of suicide by women because, after all, if they cant get a husband, what use is their life?
I still remember a Tamil film that told the story of one such girl who falls in love with her uncle. (Yep...the daughter of your elder sister is a traditionally acceptable match in Tamil Nadu). But her mother refuses, because she loves her brother so much that she does not want to see him die (her own daughter's situation does not seem to concern her so much).

Well after a great deal of drama, and tears, the marriage is finally arranged. You think, apart from the borderline incest, reason has prevailed. But nooooo...immediately after the ceremony is done, the girl decides that her husband's life is too important to risk and drinks poison. A voice over then celebrates the self sacrifice of the woman. I was sick to my stomach after watching that film.
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Old 27th April 2022, 12:09 AM   #4
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Sure. It investigates how astrology pushes similar stereotypes as would racists and other bigots. Hope you enjoy.
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Old 27th April 2022, 03:55 AM   #5
Michel H
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Originally Posted by skepticsalamander View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Hg...pticSalamander

The video investigates how astrology pushes similar stereotypes as would racists and other bigots. Hope you enjoy.
This is a video which was made by you, apparently.
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:05 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is a video which was made by you, apparently.
and...?
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:11 AM   #7
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
and...?
I just notice it.

It would perhaps have been a little more honest to mention this at the outset, so people understand better what they are invited to do.
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:18 AM   #8
Susheel
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I just notice it.

It would perhaps have been a little more honest to mention this at the outset, so people understand better what they are invited to do.
Did you check the URL you clicked on?
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:40 AM   #9
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
Did you check the URL you clicked on?
Yes, of course I did. The person who posted this youtube video is Skeptic Salamander.
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Old 27th April 2022, 07:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by skepticsalamander View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Hg...pticSalamander

The video investigates how astrology pushes similar stereotypes as would racists and other bigots. Hope you enjoy.

Cool.

Not so much an "investigation", though. is it? But that's fine, any effort to weed out belief in this kind of weird woo is fully welcome. And your video is well made enough, short and to the point. Cheers.



eta: Never ceases to amaze me how exactly people manage to reason their way to imagining there might be something to this astrology bunk. Stars FSM knows how many gazillion miles away, and planets that aren't exactly touching distance, gravitically speaking, and non-existent optical-illusion constellations: and all of these somehow end up affecting, or at least correlating with, the fortunes of this bunch of puny creatures living on the surface of one puny planet? How utterly self-absorbed must people be, to even imagine such a thing might be possible.

Agreed, it's ridiculous how many people, including otherwise sane and rational people, subscribe to this bunk. Good that you're doing your bit to weed out this BS.



etaa: Just noticed your join date. Welcome to the forum, skepticsalamander.

Last edited by Chanakya; 27th April 2022 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 27th April 2022, 11:34 AM   #11
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Almost all people who think they know their star signs are wrong:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieca...r-entire-life/

The stars have shifted since the standard connection between date and sign was made.
It's pretty funny to point this out to people who regularly read their horoscope that they've been reading the wrong one.
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Old 27th April 2022, 11:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by skepticsalamander View Post
Sure. It investigates how astrology pushes similar stereotypes as would racists and other bigots. Hope you enjoy.
I haven't really seen any instances of astrology-influenced biases that are anywhere close to the kind of hate, discrimination, and violence that's motivated by racism and other forms of real bigotry. People get physically assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat. Nobody gets beaten up for being a Scorpio. People get discriminated against in hiring, for being the wrong sex, or the wrong minority. They don't get discriminated against in hiring, for being the wrong sun sign.

Unless there's something really special and ground-breaking in the analysis, that you haven't told us about, this really sounds like a First World Karen Problem.

"Transwomen are getting brutally assaulted for their gender expression, and that's just like Bethany cutting me out of her bridal party because I'm a Taurus!" Okay, wine mom.
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Old 27th April 2022, 04:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Almost all people who think they know their star signs are wrong:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieca...r-entire-life/

The stars have shifted since the standard connection between date and sign was made.
It's pretty funny to point this out to people who regularly read their horoscope that they've been reading the wrong one.
Probably doesn't matter. If the astrologer handed over a chart for Cancer or Scorpio to a true-believer or Pisces and just mislabeled it, the believer would happily pronounce it uncannily accurate, as James Randi demonstrated many times.
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Old 27th April 2022, 09:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is a video which was made by you, apparently.
Just because it appears on his channel doesn't necessarily mean it was made by him. Of all the video I have uploaded to my channel, only a small number were actually made by me.
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Old 27th April 2022, 10:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
Probably doesn't matter. If the astrologer handed over a chart for Cancer or Scorpio to a true-believer or Pisces and just mislabeled it, the believer would happily pronounce it uncannily accurate, as James Randi demonstrated many times.
First demonstrated by Bertram Forer in 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertram_Forer

Susheel's post about Indian astrology was very disturbing. Superstitious nonsense disproved decades ago still ruining lives in 2022. I despair.
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:02 AM   #16
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In connection with the title, I wish to reference this post of mine in another thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13793737

It is about a COVID-19 patient who was into astrology and praised for it, but then went into the CT bizzaro-verse, eventually catching and dying from the disease while refusing approved medical treatments.
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:33 AM   #17
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Reminds me of Dara O'Briain's "Racism is Waaay Better Than Astrology"
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Edited by jimbob:  fixing youtube tags
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Old 28th April 2022, 01:45 AM   #18
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That said, that kind of nonsense is more usual than many people think, even in the west. (And doubly so in Asia, where stuff like your blood type might also come to bite you in the ass.) Like, there are companies which literally will discard applicants based on numerology. Like, if your name doesn't sum up to the same digit as the company name, your resume goes to the wastepaper basket.

It's perfectly allowed too. In fact, it's actually legally SAFER than even ye olde "gravity sort" (toss the pile of resumes down a flight of stairs, look at only the ones higher up.) Because if it's documentable that you used astrology, numerology or such every time, then you can't be accused of sexism, racism, ageism, religious discrimination, whatever. Someone can sue you if it might seem you didn't hire them because they're a muslim, but there is no law in the world that says you can't refuse to hire Virgos or Pisces*. Or people with the wrong numerology score.

So here we go, let's see:
Hans Mustermann:
Destiny number:9
Soul Number: 1
Personality Number: 8
Mustermann Tech Inc:
Destiny number:11
Soul Number: 5
Personality Number: 6
Damn, I don't even fit my own company AT ALL. I must fire myself immediately


* Not a hypothetical. At least in China literally Virgos have the hardest time getting employment, because they're supposed to be fussy and spoiled, and that doesn't fit the desired worker attitude in most places. Followed by Pisces and Scorpios.
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Old 1st May 2022, 04:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
That said, that kind of nonsense is more usual than many people think, even in the west. (And doubly so in Asia, where stuff like your blood type might also come to bite you in the ass.) Like, there are companies which literally will discard applicants based on numerology. Like, if your name doesn't sum up to the same digit as the company name, your resume goes to the wastepaper basket.

It's perfectly allowed too. In fact, it's actually legally SAFER than even ye olde "gravity sort" (toss the pile of resumes down a flight of stairs, look at only the ones higher up.) Because if it's documentable that you used astrology, numerology or such every time, then you can't be accused of sexism, racism, ageism, religious discrimination, whatever. Someone can sue you if it might seem you didn't hire them because they're a muslim, but there is no law in the world that says you can't refuse to hire Virgos or Pisces*. Or people with the wrong numerology score.

So here we go, let's see:
Hans Mustermann:
Destiny number:9
Soul Number: 1
Personality Number: 8
Mustermann Tech Inc:
Destiny number:11
Soul Number: 5
Personality Number: 6
Damn, I don't even fit my own company AT ALL. I must fire myself immediately


* Not a hypothetical. At least in China literally Virgos have the hardest time getting employment, because they're supposed to be fussy and spoiled, and that doesn't fit the desired worker attitude in most places. Followed by Pisces and Scorpios.
It is my understanding that in Japan a pseudoscience concerning bloodtypes can all to often affect who gets hired for a job.
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Old 12th May 2022, 08:21 PM   #20
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That is definitely disturbing. I was unaware of that. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 12th May 2022, 08:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
It is my understanding that in Japan a pseudoscience concerning bloodtypes can all to often affect who gets hired for a job.
That is my understanding as well. But my understanding on this point comes entirely from Japanese cartoons.

On a related note, for the longest time I thought the Japanese were producing pornified game shows as part of their mainstream TV programming. Turns out it's just porn. Japanese porn. I imagine there's a Japanese ameriboo who is right now convinced that America is full of idiotic housewives getting stuck under coffee tables and subsequently molested by their depraved stepsons.
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Old 21st May 2022, 04:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Almost all people who think they know their star signs are wrong:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamieca...r-entire-life/

The stars have shifted since the standard connection between date and sign was made.
It's pretty funny to point this out to people who regularly read their horoscope that they've been reading the wrong one.
Not to defend astrology, as I am an advanced amateur astronomer...

The fact of precession of the Earth's axis, which causes the astrological signs to drift with respect to the starry firmament by one sign about every 2,000 years, is the result of the framework being tied to the First Point of Aries. That is, the intersection of the ecliptic and celestial equator. In other words, the astrological frame is anchored to the precessing Earth, and not to the stars themselves.

The astrological signs were created from the starry patterns when astrology was being established, and their locations with respect to the First Point of Aries determined the astrological intervals of exactly 30 degrees. From this fiducial, the signs were destined to drift thereafter.

This being tied to the Earth is necessary so that the signs remain fixed relative to the seasons/calendar. Otherwise, if the signs were tied to the stars, an Arian would be born in Mar/Apr a couple thousand years ago, but some 12,000 years later a Mar/Apr baby would be a Libran.

Astrology is very geometrical. Which is why the astronomer who raises the fact of the constellations Ophiuchus straddling a small part of the ecliptic means there should be 13 signs misunderstands the mathematical framework.

Now, the starry patterns inspiring the astrological signs are themselves problematic, in that they suggest the cart did indeed follow the horse. Unless some supernatural force so arranged the stars that the only outcome would be the constellations and hence signs that correspond to human nature as laid out.

But we are wise to discount the supernatural element for a number of reasons. We know the stars have for the most part existed for at least millions, and for most, billions of years. As they orbit the Galaxy, even small differences in their orbits induce proper motions that cause the patterns we see to change markedly after hundreds of thousands of years. To be set on their course from their creation, subject also to the perturbing action of molecular clouds and the spiral density wave in the Galactic gravitational potential, and just happen to present the necessary patterns by the time of Man and thus inspire him to divine his individual nature and destiny therefrom, strains credulity.

Just as Man created God(s), he fitted a story to the patterns of the stars and thence constructed a scheme by which to attempt to divine his own nature and make predictions of his fate. It most certainly was not the other way round, where the scheme came first and then, lo and behold, the matching patterns were right there in the stars for all to see.
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Old 21st May 2022, 04:59 PM   #23
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
It is my understanding that in Japan a pseudoscience concerning bloodtypes can all to often affect who gets hired for a job.
As I was saying, "And doubly so in Asia, where stuff like your blood type might also come to bite you in the ass."

It's not just Japan. Like many other things in their culture, it seems to be imported from China, where it is also still going strong. In fact, arguably stronger than it ever was in Japan. And yes, you can literally get passed over for employment or promotion because of your blood type.

Not just blood type, though. Your zodiac sign can literally make you almost unemployable in China, as I was saying. You can actually get job postings that specifically state stuff like they're only looking for Gemini, Libra, or Aquarius. (Not a hypothetical, btw. Actual job posting from Hong Kong.)
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:45 PM   #24
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There is no such thing as harmless nonsense. Some of it simply isn't worth fighting in the grand scheme of things, but none of it is nonsense. There is no upside to believing in things that don't exist.
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