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Old 21st May 2022, 08:07 PM   #1
sarge
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Louisiana Senator says Black women raise maternal death rates

A Louisiana State Senator says that if you toss out Black mothers, the states maternal death rate isn’t that much worse than the rest of the nations.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/maternal-...151729839.html
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:10 PM   #2
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Wow, he actually made the good, data driven argument and he is getting attacked for it
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wow, he actually made the good, data driven argument and he is getting attacked for it
Yes, if you toss out Black women, the death rate is only bottom third.

Toss out Black men, and the incarceration rate is only average.

Toss out Black teens, and the high school graduation rate is….well still quite bad, but not as bad.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the literacy rate in Louisiana is only bad, not terrible.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the poverty rate is almost middle of the pack.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the descendant of slave or victim of Jim Crowe laws percentage goes way down.
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:33 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Yes, if you toss out Black women, the death rate is only bottom third.

Toss out Black men, and the incarceration rate is only average.

Toss out Black teens, and the high school graduation rate is….well still quite bad, but not as bad.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the literacy rate in Louisiana is only bad, not terrible.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the poverty rate is almost middle of the pack.

Toss out Black Louisianans and the descendant of slave or victim of Jim Crowe laws percentage goes way down.
If the reason they perform worse than other states is because they have a higher percentage of some population...and that population has the same probability of outcomes regardless of state, then there isn't anything to learn from that ranking.
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Old 21st May 2022, 09:08 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If the reason they perform worse than other states is because they have a higher percentage of some population...and that population has the same probability of outcomes regardless of state, then there isn't anything to learn from that ranking.
There is plenty to learn if Black Americans do not have the same probability of outcome as other Americans and if that probability is different in some states than in others. It is not coincidence that Slavery and Jim Crowe laws existed in the same states that such statistics as this exist in.
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Old 21st May 2022, 09:19 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
A Louisiana State Senator says that if you toss out Black mothers, the states maternal death rate isn’t that much worse than the rest of the nations.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/maternal-...151729839.html
Indeed; the fact that black Americans receive worse quality healthcare and worse outcomes from the same illnesses and injuries is quite well established by now. Black mothers faring worse during and after pregnancy is sadly unsurprising, but rather a corroboration.

It's interesting that just today an article came out about a report from the Kaiser Foundation illustrating that towns and counties with predominately black populations had more COVID hospitalizations, more deaths (in some cases up to twice as many as adjacent mostly-white areas), and poorer access to care, information, and vaccines than mostly-white towns and counties. The disparity scales, too - even in those same mostly-white areas, where black residents represent a small percentage of residents, they still represented a disproportionately higher percentage of COVID victims, both diagnoses and deaths.
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Old 21st May 2022, 10:24 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wow, he actually made the good, data driven argument and he is getting attacked for it
He got elected to serve all his constituents, not just White ones.


He is like a doctor saying that if you don't count the patients with pre-existing conditions (that can be treated, but won't because they have no money), his rate of success is actually very high.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 12:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Wow, he actually made the good, data driven argument and he is getting attacked for it

What “argument” would that be?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 01:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He got elected to serve all his constituents, not just White ones.


He is like a doctor saying that if you don't count the patients with pre-existing conditions (that can be treated, but won't because they have no money), his rate of success is actually very high.
This pretty much what they do!

If you look at cardiac surgical mortality figures they do take into account co-morbidities and complexity of operations.

He did not say toss out the black mothers he said the data should be corrected for race. This is not an unreasonable or irrational comment. The best way of presenting the data would be by race standardised mortality data or looking at both aggregate data and by race.

The higher maternal mortality of black women is a phenomenon in the UK with a national health service just as it is in the US. So it is not simply access to health care. The outcome of black women looked after by black obstetricians is better than black women looked after by white obstetricians but still not as good as white women looked after by black obstetricians.

It is worth remembering that even if there is no true difference between outcomes by state, half of states will have a below average outcome, simple ranking is a very poor way of looking at outcomes there are cusum plots that do a better job.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:23 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He got elected to serve all his constituents, not just White ones.


He is like a doctor saying that if you don't count the patients with pre-existing conditions (that can be treated, but won't because they have no money), his rate of success is actually very high.
The sad irony is that he is a doctor.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He got elected to serve all his constituents, not just White ones.


He is like a doctor saying that if you don't count the patients with pre-existing conditions (that can be treated, but won't because they have no money), his rate of success is actually very high.
No, that isn't what he said at all, and that is a failure of reading comprehension.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:48 AM   #12
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I wonder what the stats would look like if you use IQ instead of race?

Or income instead of race?

Skin color seems superficial.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No, that isn't what he said at all, and that is a failure of reading comprehension.
Is it? I read the article cited, and it starts right out with the idea that a statistic should be "corrected for race" but no reason why.

The Senator did not try to analyze why the discrepancy exists, just "for whatever reason." The article goes on with the opinion of an expert identifying the reason as racial discrimination.

He did not make his "good data driven argument" in order to point up the problem and to emphasize what a bad job Louisiana is doing about it, but to minimize the problem and assert that Louisiana is doing a good job.

The statement might have made a useful point if (and only if) it had been backed up by some reliable data showing that, all other things being equal, race is a factor. If, for example, Louisiana has a higher rate of sickle cell anemia than other states, a similar statement would be appropriate. But I do not see such a thing here. If there is a reliable study somewhere that finds maternal death among black patients higher as a result of some racial characteristic alone, perhaps I have missed it, but it is not present in the article cited.

It is not a "good data driven argument." Even if the data are true, the quality of the argument depends on its assertion. "Our soup is as good as any, if you don't count the dead flies in it" relies on true data but it is not a good argument for the soup.

e.t.a. for a compact version, see Casebro above.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:28 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Is it? I read the article cited, and it starts right out with the idea that a statistic should be "corrected for race" but no reason why.

The Senator did not try to analyze why the discrepancy exists, just "for whatever reason." The article goes on with the opinion of an expert identifying the reason as racial discrimination.

He did not make his "good data driven argument" in order to point up the problem and to emphasize what a bad job Louisiana is doing about it, but to minimize the problem and assert that Louisiana is doing a good job.

The statement might have made a useful point if (and only if) it had been backed up by some reliable data showing that, all other things being equal, race is a factor. If, for example, Louisiana has a higher rate of sickle cell anemia than other states, a similar statement would be appropriate. But I do not see such a thing here. If there is a reliable study somewhere that finds maternal death among black patients higher as a result of some racial characteristic alone, perhaps I have missed it, but it is not present in the article cited.

It is not a "good data driven argument." Even if the data are true, the quality of the argument depends on its assertion. "Our soup is as good as any, if you don't count the dead flies in it" relies on true data but it is not a good argument for the soup.

e.t.a. for a compact version, see Casebro above.
Yep, too hyperbolic, Let me clarify. It is good in that it does bring up something that can occur....a difference in population rather than how well elements of that population are treated across states. And it is a better data argument than the argument some are assigning to him.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yep, too hyperbolic, Let me clarify. It is good in that it does bring up something that can occur....a difference in population rather than how well elements of that population are treated across states. And it is a better data argument than the argument some are assigning to him.
I still think you are mistaking the quality of the data from the quality of the argument. In a sort of philosophical or mathematical sense, you can, perhaps, consider data alone an argument, but if you are making an argument from data, it's that, not the data, that counts as the argument.

It's true that Louisiana has a very high black population, and it's true that black maternal mortality is higher, and thus it is trivially true that black maternal mortality in Louisiana makes its overall mortality higher. Those are empty data until someone comes up with a reason for their existence.

In this case, no explicit reason is given, but manner of the statement and the circumstance under which it was made implies a racial distinction for which no evidence is present.

As a side note, I think it ironic that this same senator is a rabid pro-lifer, and thus, whether it's his intention or not, advocating that the discrepancy in mortality, whatever its underlying cause, be increased.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Cassidy
Now, I say that not to minimize the issue but to focus the issue as to where it would be. For whatever reason, people of color have a higher incidence of maternal mortality.
I would give him a break if he wasn't an anti-abortion fanatic.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:59 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I still think you are mistaking the quality of the data from the quality of the argument. In a sort of philosophical or mathematical sense, you can, perhaps, consider data alone an argument, but if you are making an argument from data, it's that, not the data, that counts as the argument.

It's true that Louisiana has a very high black population, and it's true that black maternal mortality is higher, and thus it is trivially true that black maternal mortality in Louisiana makes its overall mortality higher. Those are empty data until someone comes up with a reason for their existence.

In this case, no explicit reason is given, but manner of the statement and the circumstance under which it was made implies a racial distinction for which no evidence is present.

As a side note, I think it ironic that this same senator is a rabid pro-lifer, and thus, whether it's his intention or not, advocating that the discrepancy in mortality, whatever its underlying cause, be increased.
We are on the same page. There is no evidence the claim is true. My objection is to mischaracterizing his claim.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:19 AM   #18
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I expect the figures also look better if you exclude the poorest 30% of the population. Poor people have worse health outcomes "for whatever reason".
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Old 22nd May 2022, 11:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I expect the figures also look better if you exclude the poorest 30% of the population. Poor people have worse health outcomes "for whatever reason".
"Our university campus has record low reported incidents of sexual assault - if you exclude all the reports made by women."
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