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Old 21st May 2022, 04:35 PM   #561
Venom
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
If races really existed, that is, if they actually were different one from another, then they would unavoidably have a hierarchy. There would be one superior race, no matter what, and one inferior to all the others.

Seems to me, a racist is simply somebody who believes that races really exist. (Pace shuttit, the word "racist" still has the same venomous meaning it always had, and its acceptation has not widened.) Since racism lies in the land of belief, where anything can be accepted as true in the absence of evidence, the door of ignorance is wide open to madness.

As we see.
I think races might exist, but they aren't divided by color. But this often gets conflated with culture at the end of the day, plus variations within the racial groups, so any actual distinguishable races don't seem greatly relevant to all this noise about demographic changes and stuff. And people are much more alike than different anyway.

I don't agree at all with your first paragraph, depending on what you mean by superior. Technologically advanced? Human populations simply didn't have access to the same resources.
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Old 21st May 2022, 06:34 PM   #562
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I'd love to "replace" a lot of Republicans. I'm all for it!

When I was a liberal hater I thought ya maybe the Dems are bringin' in the Mexicans yada yada. Now I see it is all ********. Now I see who the racists really are.
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Old 21st May 2022, 07:43 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Because it is my BBQ and I set the rules. And even the smell of that food will put me off my meal. But, really, I am just kind of making a point that having a disdain for some aspects of a culture is not necessarily the same as being a racist, or especially a white supremacist.

My opinion is that these words are tossed around way too much. So much so to the point that they barely mean anything anymore.
Okay, distain for the culture of others isn't necessarily racist.

But one of the propaganda tricks of the haters is to belittle of culture of others as a sort of prelude to eventually dismissing the humanity of the people in that culture.

It's considered polite to simple say you don't like this or that about a non-white culture. But telling Indians that they can't bring food to your home is just plain rude.

I can't help but think you have a hissy fit if you were treated that way.

Do Indians not deserve your respect? The same respect you expect be given you. Are Indians not human?

----------
Dope Clock II: It's been 341 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

Last edited by arayder; 21st May 2022 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:15 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes. The country the invisible hand built.
you're kidding, right?
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:15 PM   #565
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I realize that we must make some allowances for style and manner of expression, but it is hard sometimes to separate preference from racism from supremacy when language is not carefully used.

If I were, for example, not fond of Indian food (I love it but that's a different matter) and wanted nothing but good old American barbecue at my barbecue (I like that too), I'd be safely immune to an accusation of racism if I said "I prefer hamburgers and it's my barbecue this is what I do." I'd be safely immune to an accusation of supremacy if I added that I hate Indian food and won't allow it in the vicinity, though in the racism department it's getting a little whiffy. But if I have to add that it's "stinky crap?" Pushing it.
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Old 21st May 2022, 08:29 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I realize that we must make some allowances for style and manner of expression, but it is hard sometimes to separate preference from racism from supremacy when language is not carefully used.

If I were, for example, not fond of Indian food (I love it but that's a different matter) and wanted nothing but good old American barbecue at my barbecue (I like that too), I'd be safely immune to an accusation of racism if I said "I prefer hamburgers and it's my barbecue this is what I do." I'd be safely immune to an accusation of supremacy if I added that I hate Indian food and won't allow it in the vicinity, though in the racism department it's getting a little whiffy. But if I have to add that it's "stinky crap?" Pushing it.
Exactly! Let me give an example by saying a bunch of stuff I don't really mean. . .

------------------

You damn Americans and your damn BBQs were you eat dead animal flesh and drink beer and talk your talk and after you get drunk you pull your guns out and your damn dull-witting offspring get their gabby little dirty mitts on the guns after you pass out and following your damn drunken examples end up shooting their siblings who probably aren't their siblings anyway because you Godless boy-men can't keep your flys zipped!

Stay out of my country!


-----------------

See how easy that was.

----------
Dope Clock II: It's been 341 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

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Old 21st May 2022, 08:35 PM   #567
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:04 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I realize that we must make some allowances for style and manner of expression, but it is hard sometimes to separate preference from racism from supremacy when language is not carefully used.

If I were, for example, not fond of Indian food (I love it but that's a different matter) and wanted nothing but good old American barbecue at my barbecue (I like that too), I'd be safely immune to an accusation of racism if I said "I prefer hamburgers and it's my barbecue this is what I do." I'd be safely immune to an accusation of supremacy if I added that I hate Indian food and won't allow it in the vicinity, though in the racism department it's getting a little whiffy. But if I have to add that it's "stinky crap?" Pushing it.
Has anybody ever microwaved curried fish near you?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:06 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Bikers. Sure, I recall them (I'm from 1948). They hardly represent the Danish population or culture. Don't even think they merit the label 'subculture'.

It is so long ago that Danes had never heard the word bikers (or subculture) and a long time before the internet. I just happened to remember that it was mentioned in that book. You will also have a hard time finding Per Madsen's racist ramblings against Turkish immigrants in Ishøj a decade later because the internet hadn't been invented yet.


ETA: i was surprised to see that Wikipedia has short article about the racist grønjakkerne in the 1980s.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:16 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Does Ms Rebecca have a point in there?

Yes.

Quote:
I got bored with her droning on and went to the end, still no point.

That's because you went to the end instead of listening to what she had to say. I am not going to give you a summary.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:23 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I consider this argument to be garbage. You are really broadening the definition of a "White Supremacist". Almost comically so, as we all have preferences for different things, and may have disdain for certain things attached to a culture. It doesn't mean we are characterized as a "White Supremacist".

I don't like Indian food. I'll take pizza and burgers over it any day. And if someone is trying cook Indian food, get the hell out of the kitchen. And I don't want none of them Indians or their sympathizers bringing that stinky crap to my BBQ. Marvel at my "White Supremacy"...and pass me the ketchup.
That's not why I regard you as a racist.

It's because you assert that specific racist arguments are not racist
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Old 22nd May 2022, 03:42 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not why I regard you as a racist.

It's because you assert that specific racist arguments are not racist

The topic wasn't, "Reasons Jimbob regards Warp12 as a racist".

The topic was the difference between the terms "Racist" and "White Supremacist".

But thanks for your clarification. I hold your opinion on these matters in very high regard.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:18 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not why I regard you as a racist.

It's because you assert that specific racist arguments are not racist
I have come to the same conclusion for the same reasons, and a lot more besides.... there's this thing called "form"!
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:23 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
No, we are discussing whether there is any reason to suppose having a system that operates on the basis of letting innumerable free agents pursue their own interests with minimal constraint (in this case immigration) should be expected to produce a good result.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sounds like the United States of America to me.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Edmund Burke, a year before that Declaration of Independence, wrote:
Originally Posted by Burke
In this character of the Americans, a love of freedom is the predominating feature which marks and distinguishes the whole: and as an ardent is always a jealous affection, your colonies become suspicious, restive, and untractable, whenever they see the least attempt to wrest from them by force, or shuffle from them by chicane, what they think the only advantage worth living for. This fierce spirit of liberty is stronger in the English colonies probably than in any other people of the earth; and this from a great variety of powerful causes; which, to understand the true temper of their minds, and the direction which this spirit takes, it will not be amiss to lay open somewhat more largely.

First, the people of the colonies are descendants of Englishmen. England, Sir, is a nation, which still I hope respects, and formerly adored, her freedom....

Skipping down to Burke's final sentences:
Originally Posted by Burke
For, in order to prove that the Americans have no right to their liberties, we are every day endeavouring to subvert the maxims which preserve the whole spirit of our own. To prove that the Americans ought not to be free, we are obliged to depreciate the value of freedom itself; and we never seem to gain a paltry advantage over them in debate, without attacking some of those principles, or deriding some of those feelings, for which our ancestors have shed their blood.

Would shuttit benefit from reading Burke? Probably not, but others might benefit from reading Burke's various refutations of shuttit's ideas.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes. The country the invisible hand built.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you're kidding, right?
No matter how silly or outrageous shuttit might sound, we should not assume shuttit is kidding.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:29 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
No, we are discussing whether there is any reason to suppose having a system that operates on the basis of letting innumerable free agents pursue their own interests with minimal constraint (in this case immigration) should be expected to produce a good result. That looked a lot like a market to me, so I wondered about a parallel. Are we assuming an invisible hand idea, or could there be a tragedy of the commons where free immigration leads to a problem?
Dogwhistle for "Do we really want these pesky non whites to destroy our precious country!?"
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:59 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Yes, I assumed it was obvious that I had America, at least partly, in mind when I wrote that, and subsequently confirmed that it applied to the US.

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
Edmund Burke, a year before that Declaration of Independence, wrote:



Skipping down to Burke's final sentences:



Would shuttit benefit from reading Burke? Probably not, but others might benefit from reading Burke's various refutations of shuttit's ideas
I've read Burke. If you look back, you'll find me saying that he supported the revolution in America and was opposed to the one in France for the reasons he explains. Finding a passage that you like from him that isn't related to his central argument in his Reflections on the Revolution in France, and agrees with other comments I've made about him, is irrelevant. Do you think that because I cite one of his arguments, I agree with him on everything.... or that if I ask a question about the founding assumptions of America, and whether they might not have failure cases, then I commit myself to disagreeing with all arguments in support of America? This is a very tribal way of looking at things.

Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
No matter how silly or outrageous shuttit might sound, we should not assume shuttit is kidding.
You disagree that America was made great by the invisible hand of the market? Are you claiming 18th and 19th Century America was a centrally planned command economy?

Last edited by shuttlt; 22nd May 2022 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:04 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes, I assumed it was obvious that I had America, at least partly, in mind when I wrote that, and subsequently confirmed that it applied to the US.


I've read Burke. If you look back, you'll find me saying that he supported the revolution in America and was opposed to the one in France for the reasons he explains. Finding a passage that you like from him that isn't related to his central argument in his Reflections on the Revolution in France, and agrees with other comments I've made about him, is irrelevant. Do you think that because I cite one of his arguments, I agree with him on everything.... or that if I ask a question about the founding assumptions of America, and whether they might not have failure cases, then I commit myself to disagreeing with all arguments in support of America? This is a very tribal way of looking at things.


You disagree that America was made great by the invisible hand of the market? Are you claiming 18th and 19th Century America was a centrally planned command economy?
America was made "great" by one of your ancestors who owned black people and forced them to pick cotton.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:19 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
America was made "great" by one of your ancestors who owned black people and forced them to pick cotton.
In common with most people, to the best of my knowledge, my ancestors never owned slaves and the idea that the would have done seems kind of unlikely. Maybe if you go back 2000 years there is some aristocratic Roman blood in me, and she owned slaves... but really, if you want to be like that, everybody's ancestors owned slaves. I'm pretty confident that many of my ancestors were serfs, does that count? Anyway, that slavery is what made America great is a ridiculously uninformed moral catechism.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:26 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
In common with most people, to the best of my knowledge, my ancestors never owned slaves and the idea that the would have done seems kind of unlikely. Maybe if you go back 2000 years there is some aristocratic Roman blood in me, and she owned slaves... but really, if you want to be like that, everybody's ancestors owned slaves. I'm pretty confident that many of my ancestors were serfs, does that count? Anyway, that slavery is what made America great is a ridiculously uninformed moral catechism.
Yeah, I get it, the truth hurts. Here you are, rambling about the bad influence of non whites but ignoring the fact that non whites made the country you are so viciously defending.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:44 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Yeah, I get it, the truth hurts. Here you are, rambling about the bad influence of non whites but ignoring the fact that non whites made the country you are so viciously defending.
I disagree with you and think you are ignorant, or ideologically bound. Repeating the statements that make me think that reinforces my judgement.

Honestly, from a right wing perspective, people like you are terrific at sending the centre to the right... so keep on going.

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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:46 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I disagree with you and think you are ignorant, or ideologically bound. Repeating the statements that make me think that reinforces my judgement.

Honestly, from a right wing perspective, people like you are terrific at sending the centre to the right... so keep on going.
Ok

Ah, the gool ole "It's the libruls fault that people chose to become "conservatives"!!!!!!!!!"
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:48 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Ok
Yes, the posts of your camp on the forum certainly helped me give more serious consideration to right wing thought. In a sense I'm grateful.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 06:51 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes, the posts of your camp on the forum certainly helped me give more serious consideration to right wing thought. In a sense I'm grateful.
"IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT THAT I AM A RIGHT WINGER!!!YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN NICER TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:03 AM   #584
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I am getting a lot of amusement from this thread.

For example we are now getting quotes and references to Burke. A very interesting thinker and a rather ambigious one.

I have been amused for sometime by Burke's contradictions and omissions. He decried the French Revolution for it's violence and potential for tyranny yet had no problem asserting that the French Revolution and all it's effects / changes should be rooted out and utterly destroyed in what amounts to a holy war. For a man of "reason", his denouncations of the French Revolution bordered on and frequently passed into hysterical manicheanism. His talk of Marie Antoinette in his "Reflections" is actually very over the top.

And Burke's belief that the French Revolution was the result of a conspiracy of intellectuals part of whose design was to get sexual access to aristocratic females to corrupt them with their inferior ancestry is risible nonsense. Reading Burke's foaming at the mouth diatribes reminds me of some one obssessed with "precious bodily fluids" and "purity of essence".

This guy also supported the American Revolution.

Regarding slavery. The role of slavery in the development of the USA has traditionally be seriously underplayed. Afterall by the start of the Civil War and for quite sometime before cotton had been, by far, the principle American export. One can also talk about the value of other exports like rice and tabacco and surgar etc. Further slaves served an important source of portable wealth used has collateral for loans, speculative investment, mortgages etc. And further served has a basis for atracting foreign investment. In 1860 the value of slaves amounted to c. 16-18% of the total wealth of the USA. And of course a far higher percentage of the wealth of the slave owning South. In fact it appears that in 1860 c. 70% of the millionaries in the USA were slave owners.

Of course the idea that the USA was created by the "invisible hand" is hilarious. No doubt the "invisible hand" was responsible for the conquest of America from the Indigenous peoples. Of course it was actually epidemic disease and conquest. No doubt the "invisible hand" was responsible for the mass use, early on, of indentured servitude?

One could talk about the role of government policies regarding tariffs, internal improvements, corporations etc. all of which played a role in creating the USA. The "invisible hand" that created the USA is stuff and nonsense.

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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:05 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Has anybody ever microwaved curried fish near you?
Yes. I have eaten curried fish and liked it when it is not too spicy. I realize many do not. As noted, though, I would not consider it objectionable if someone simply said, "I don't like curried fish, please don't bring it to my barbecue." In the case of something like that, I think it would also be quite acceptable to say "I'm preparing and hosting a barbecue with a distinctive flavor and odor, and that of curried fish would conflict with it, so please don't bring any." I like the smell of burgers and hot dogs on a barbecue, and have no argument with those who want it unalloyed. That's not the same as calling all Indian food "stinky crap."

While I'm at it, to save some space, I might point out that although I think Eagle Puncher's assertion a bit extreme applied to an Englishman, and its implication of responsibility for one's ancestry dangerously wrong, it is no more absurd than your attacks on others for the imagined acceptance of unspecified sins of unspecified agency.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:30 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I like the smell of burgers and hot dogs on a barbecue, and have no argument with those who want it unalloyed. That's not the same as calling all Indian food "stinky crap."

So, are you saying that if I refer to Indian food as "stinky crap", that makes me a racist? This keeps getting better and better...presenting "racism in caricature".

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
My opinion is that these words are tossed around way too much. So much so to the point that they barely mean anything anymore.

If you aren't saying that, then maybe consider starting a thread on BBQ etiquette.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:43 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, are you saying that if I refer to Indian food as "stinky crap", that makes me a racist? This keeps getting better and better...presenting "racism in caricature".




If you aren't saying that, then maybe consider starting a thread on BBQ etiquette.
I don't think, given a certain allowance for careless speech, such a statement alone makes you a racist, but in the context of a variety of other statements, it does no service to your assertion that you're not.
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Last edited by bruto; 22nd May 2022 at 07:44 AM. Reason: double negative corrected
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:46 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes, the posts of your camp on the forum certainly helped me give more serious consideration to right wing thought. In a sense I'm grateful.
And I moved from being concerned about white replacement to sympathizing with the social/political left because of the overwhelming number of fascists and OBAMA BORN IN KENYAA! deplorables I realized I shared spaces with.

I'm always suspicious of the "your intolerance is driving me to the right" line. There will people very passionate about being socially responsible when talking about race. To me that comes from a position of empathy. And I think that's more benign than the views of people at the other end of the spectrum.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 08:52 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't think, given a certain allowance for careless speech, such a statement alone makes you a racist, but in the context of a variety of other statements, it does no service to your assertion that you're not.
I'm sure you'll disagree, but from the perspective of England, I would say that this concern about how things are said looks a lot like middle class morality and class prejudice.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 08:59 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm sure you'll disagree, but from the perspective of England, I would say that this concern about how things are said looks a lot like middle class morality and class prejudice.
Dogwhistle for "I am working class, I am not happy about it and it's all entirely the fault of immigrants!!!"
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:02 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Dogwhistle for "I am working class, I am not happy about it and it's all entirely the fault of immigrants!!!"
I am not working class. I think maybe the whistling sound you hear is not really there.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:03 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I am not working class. I think maybe the whistling sound you hear is not really there.
Sure you aren't.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:12 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I consider this argument to be garbage. You are really broadening the definition of a "White Supremacist". Almost comically so, as we all have preferences for different things, and may have disdain for certain things attached to a culture. It doesn't mean we are characterized as a "White Supremacist".

I don't like Indian food. I'll take pizza and burgers over it any day. And if someone is trying cook Indian food, get the hell out of the kitchen. And I don't want none of them Indians or their sympathizers bringing that stinky crap to my BBQ. Marvel at my "White Supremacy"...and pass me the ketchup.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I prefer Coke to Pepsi.... but that's not because I think it's intrinsically superior in any sense beyond my liking it more. I don't like Dr Pepper at all, but if you like it, I'm happy for you. I don't think you are wrong to prefer Dr Pepper. Different people like different things.

Do you mean "superior" in the sense of thinking one race is better than another in some absolute sense, or do you include if you have a personal preference but not a belief in your preferences superiority?

So you have a preference to only see white voters around you when you go to vote? You have a preference to only see white faces in your neighborhood, only see white faces at the grocery store?

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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:16 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The topic wasn't, "Reasons Jimbob regards Warp12 as a racist".

The topic was the difference between the terms "Racist" and "White Supremacist".

But thanks for your clarification. I hold your opinion on these matters in very high regard.
All you have to do is report his posts. One of the mods will take action against him if he is repeatedly derailing the thread.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:17 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you have a preference to only see white voters around you when you go to vote? You have a preference to only see white faces in your neighborhood, only see white faces at the grocery store?
Cathy Newman, is that you?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:19 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Okay, distain for the culture of others isn't necessarily racist.
"Disdain" goes well beyond 'a preference'.

Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Do Indians not deserve your respect? The same respect you expect be given you. Are Indians not human?...
'No respect for' also goes beyond 'a preference'.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:36 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes.

That's because you went to the end instead of listening to what she had to say. I am not going to give you a summary.
You assume I didn't listen to enough of it to have formed a different opinion from yours. And a cogent video like that one usually (should) starts and ends with a summary of the point.

I take it the point was droning on with no-brainer stuff about the alt-right we already know?

I guess it's hard to summarize that into 'a point'.

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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:49 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Cathy Newman, is that you?
I don't know who that is but I see you dodged the questions I asked.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 09:53 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you're kidding, right?
Probably not. At lot of USAians actually believe it, despite the evidence.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 10:07 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know who that is but I see you dodged the questions I asked.
It's effectively "rule of so". You summed up what I said to be something completely different to what I said. Now you are reading you failure to understand the reference in my answer to be confirmation that you were correct in your initial mischaracterisation.

Honestly, for a skeptics forum, this place has a remarkable number of psychics who can read people's true motives hidden behind their posts.
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