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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:01 PM   #81
bruto
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't make a business on giving away what the person actually wants hoping a side hustle of selling auxillary items will magically cover it.

An artist has to be able to make a living selling their art, not giving their art away (or having no functional to sell it on anything but the honor system) and make their actual living selling novelty keychains or Fortnite Skins.
Traditionally, I think, artists have made a living (at least the very few who do in fact make a living from art) by selling what they make, its uniqueness being that they only make an original once; the NFT model seems to be based on the idea that the artist makes a living selling the title to a work that is otherwise entirely indistinguishable from its copies.

Of course I've met a few artists who did not make a living at their art. How many poets do you know who don't make their living teaching? I knew one person who rarely made enough to live on during his lifetime, though he had one-man shows at New York galleries, and got well reviewed in the New Yorker. He lived poor most of his life, did other things, painted crockery, borrowed money, bartered work for heating oil, cut wood...and drank himself to death, dying shortly after he suddenly made enough to live on for the year. Not an uncommon story.

I suppose in some ways some version of this has been done before in some fields. Numbered or signed editions of a work of literature or a graphic art, which are then reproduced the same in every way except for the certification have been around for generations. I have a few of the other side, too. A lovely Vlaminck etching that, if it were signed, would be worth plenty. Pulled from the original plate and unsigned, it's a pretty picture. I have a Braque lithograph too, same thing. It's a real Braque, but the frame is probably worth as much as the picture.

I had a grandfather who was a sucker for those limited editions. Most have gone the way of scrap paper, having proven worthless, their bindings rotted, research superceded and authors forgotten.

After the novelty has passed, or the creator has passed, or both, I think people will find that a turd with a certificate is not worth much more than a turd ever was. At least I can hang my worthless Braque on the wall.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:11 PM   #82
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I think the uniqueness of modern times is overrated. This isn't some new thing.

Let's say I own a movie theater. The main cinema has 500 seats. I sell 400 tickets to the matinee showing of a movie. It costs me no more to show the film to 500 people then it does to 400 people. I still don't let 100 people in for free, or at the very least you wouldn't expect 100 people to just feel like the are entitle to get in for free because, hey you've already sold the movie 400 times what differences does it make.

Yeah the replicability of items is certainly a major factor, but it's not some totally new thing that economics have never had to deal with.

"You don't just get stuff for free, even if doesn't cost the person selling it anything" isn't radical economic theory.
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Old 4th April 2021, 06:34 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You can't make a business on giving away what the person actually wants hoping a side hustle of selling auxillary items will magically cover it.

An artist has to be able to make a living selling their art, not giving their art away (or having no functional to sell it on anything but the honor system) and make their actual living selling novelty keychains or Fortnite Skins.
Depends on your art form.

The webcomics model had a lot of experimentation at first, but what ended up being the standard for many years was free comics, subsidized by ads on the page and merchandise for sale.

They eventually started selling book forms of the same comics, most of them did it while keeping the digital versions free online.

I don't know if any of them are fabulously wealthy, but neither were too many mainstream comics artists who published only in scarce physical form.

XKCD, Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, Questionable Content. I can think of a great number of comic artists who've been making a living for a long time now, giving away their content for free.

I'm the end, it's the same model as broadcast TV. The content is free and gets eyeballs and fandom. The eyeballs bring in ad dollars, the fandom sells merch.
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Old 6th April 2021, 04:50 AM   #84
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People's Expensive NFTs Keep Vanishing. This Is Why

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdj...b-global-en-GB

Ooops.
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:40 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
People's Expensive NFTs Keep Vanishing. This Is Why

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdj...b-global-en-GB

Ooops.
Caveat emptor.

The idiot that was the inspiration for that report hadn’t a clue what he was buying.
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Old 6th April 2021, 05:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Caveat emptor.

The idiot that was the inspiration for that report hadn’t a clue what he was buying.
As far as "idiot tax" goes for bad investments, $500 is on the cheap end for an investment lesson learned.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
People's Expensive NFTs Keep Vanishing. This Is Why

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdj...b-global-en-GB

Ooops.
Well this makes total sense. Given the amount of copyright violation that occurs on the web, images are being taken down all the time. It's really not surprising that someone's NFT will suddenly vanish with no warning.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:03 PM   #88
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AS I understand it, the NFT says I own such and such work that resides in such and such a place, but does not contain the article. So unless you have a hard copy of the work, the site could be abandoned, moved, blocked, hacked, etc., and you'd be left with nothing but the title of something you can't find.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:24 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
AS I understand it, the NFT says I own such and such work that resides in such and such a place, but does not contain the article. So unless you have a hard copy of the work, the site could be abandoned, moved, blocked, hacked, etc., and you'd be left with nothing but the title of something you can't find.
Yes, exactly. It would be like a signpost directing you to a building that's been demolished.

Why it disappeared from the blockchain itself is more complicated, but the simple answer is that it didn't - it disappeared from certain tools used to access the blockchain.
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Old 7th April 2021, 04:36 AM   #90
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NFTs seem to be having a “soft crash”.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/analy...111059901.html
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Old 7th April 2021, 06:50 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
To paraphrase Terry Pratchett on opera: you put money in and get art. Art is the product, it's the goal. You shouldn't put money into art in the hopes you'll get money out of it again, in larger quantities. That people do, and sometimes successfully, isn't necessarily a good thing. Either for them, the art, or their finances.

A woman once reported Harlan Ellison to the Secret Service, claiming that he had threatened the President, because he wasn't sufficiently grateful and appreciative to her, one of the readers who "made him famous". His comment when telling the story was that, if you received pleasure from reading his stories, that was your "repayment" and you shouldn't expect anything else.
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Old 7th April 2021, 07:59 AM   #92
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I think there's always been a place for patronage and investment in art. Many artists are ahead of the curve when it comes to cultural acceptance, and they depend to some degree on people willing to take a chance. And included in this is often a degree of investment - the idea that an object will become more valuable when society catches up with it. That may take the form of a once-spurned painting becoming valuable, or of an already rich patron going down in history for his foresight in providing a starving composer with a living. Many artists go through a period - often even a lifetime - of under-appreciation, but we should not fall into the bigfoot fallacy of assuming that because Van Gogh didn't sell, everything that doesn't sell must be great.

The progress of real art depends on the basic idea that some work has actual quality. It seems as if the latest trend has separated the title so far from the work that the content is irrelevant.

I have a few fairly valuable pieces of art on the walls, bought or acquired for nearly nothing, and am quite unashamed that they are good investments, and I'll be sure to let my heirs know. But they're on the walls because they're nice, and they share that space with things of no known value. The ones I bought I got because I liked them. If the house burns down, what I will mourn is the loss of the art, not the loss of money.
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Old 14th April 2021, 08:14 PM   #93
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Single pixel of digital-only art sold for more than $1.7 million at Sotheby's

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An online sale of a single pixel, as a part of non-fungible tokens (NFTs) by the digital artist Pak, sold for $US1.36 million ($1.76 million) at auction house Sotheby's.

A non-fungible token is a form of blockchain-based digital asset that has exploded in popularity in 2021, with prices soaring as collectors and enthusiasts rush to buy the items, which only exist in digital form.

An NFT called The Pixel — an image of a single pixel — was also up for auction, fetching $US1,355,555 million ($1.76 million) after a 90-minute bidding battle.

The artist is known only as Pak, with the Twitter handle @muratpak.

The pixel was a part of a total of $US16.8 million ($21.8 million) digital art sale, the auction house said on Wednesday (local time).
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Old 15th April 2021, 06:09 AM   #94
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So, TWO pixels should go for.....
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Old 15th April 2021, 08:13 AM   #95
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I thought the upside-down urinal was dumb, then there was that banana taped to a wall, and now this. Art may be in the mind of the beholder but my god! some beholders are drooling idiots.
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Old 15th April 2021, 09:55 AM   #96
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As long as it's not four pixels.
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Old 15th April 2021, 09:24 PM   #97
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I mean I'm all for the "I'm an artist and I say it's art" idea, but when they go this far...
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Old 22nd April 2021, 10:51 AM   #98
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So not exactly an NFT but related.

I just bought an AI Art. It's a 14x12 inch stretched canvas art piece completely drawn by an AI program. I also get a high resolution digital file and exclusive rights to use the image in any not for profit way.

It's an abstract piece (as one can imagine most all of them are) called Shadow Stairs. It's a black and white abstract imagine of vaguely rocky outcropping with hints of some sort of creature living on it. I actually kind of dig it.

I'll see if its worth the full 50 bucks and free shipping I paid for it when I get the physical painting.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 12:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's an abstract piece (as one can imagine most all of them are) called Shadow Stairs. It's a black and white abstract imagine of vaguely rocky outcropping with hints of some sort of creature living on it. I actually kind of dig it.

I just looked at it in an online gallery. I see three tortured people who've been turned to stone and fused into a mountainside, reaching for each other with their stretched and distorted arms.
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Old 23rd April 2021, 07:50 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I just looked at it in an online gallery. I see three tortured people who've been turned to stone and fused into a mountainside, reaching for each other with their stretched and distorted arms.
And the frame floats, in case you drop it in the bath.
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Old 3rd November 2021, 12:04 PM   #101
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Okay so weird update.

I got my AI Generated Art Piece a few months back. It's really nice and now hangs in my office/mancave/whatever room.

But in the meantime the company has (apparently) really leaned hard into the NFT model and has jacked the prices WAY up.

Hell the piece I bought (for a grand total of 50 bucks) is listed as "SOLD" with a value of 600 dollars on the website now.

Sad I was seriously considering buying another piece, but I'm not dropping anywhere near that much cash on a, to be fair, gimmick painting.
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Old 3rd November 2021, 12:13 PM   #102
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"Squid game coin" did a rug pull after the value started to climb.

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Last week, an unknown developer launched a crypto token inspired by the wildly popular Netflix show about a deadly game in which players risk their lives to dig themselves out of extreme financial debt. Called Squid, the digital currency began trading on the PancakeSwap platform on October 26 at a penny per token, according to crypto-pricing website CoinMarketCap. The price grew to $2,861 by Monday, according to CoinMarketCap data.

Not long after the Squid coin hit the market, CoinMarketCap issued a warning to investors that something was amiss. Someone had dismantled the Squid coin website and promotors of the cryptocurrency could no longer be reached, CoinMarketCap said.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/squid-g...rug-pull-scam/
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Old 3rd November 2021, 12:55 PM   #103
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I have a handful of NFT's, almost all horses, almost all for Zed Run.

They're being used a lot now to create online games for the ethereum and polygon blockchains. Zed Run is just horse racing, pretty good stuff.

I sold a racing chicken for a game called chicken derby for $4,000USD that cost me $700 to make. Everyone should be skeptical when dealing with crypto inspired, but rip offs will always happen. Nigerian princes have been making money for decades.
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Old 4th November 2021, 08:37 AM   #104
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McDonald's is holding a drawing for 10 McRib NFTs that they're valuing at $20 each.


Quote:
The serially limited-edition sandwich returns to McDonald’s menus on Nov. 1. And to celebrate the iconic meal’s 40th anniversary, the burger chain is giving away 10 exclusive McRib NFTs, aka non-fungible tokens.
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Old 4th November 2021, 10:47 AM   #105
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But do they taste better than a McRib?
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Old 4th November 2021, 10:58 AM   #106
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I realize that in many fields, such as gems and art, tulips and Elvis memorabilia, the value of an investment far outweighs the intrinsic value of the thing, but generally there is some vestige of such a value. It may well become irrelevant as investors hope to become the next-to-last sucker, but somewhere behind it is a seed. I suppose NFT's are a kind of "cut to the chase," but am having difficulty imagining how a thing with no intrinsic value at can become the darling of investors. Maybe I am not getting it, but it seems like having title to a building lot on Venus.

Is it a safeguard against the bottom falling out of the market that there never was a bottom?
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Old 4th November 2021, 04:37 PM   #107
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Heh. Last April when this thread was active, it reminded me to chuck some more money into a boring Vanguard mutual fund. Checked the price today, it's gone up forty bucks a share since then. It's not as interesting as these art things, for sure, but I think I'd rather have the money than a good story.
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Old 8th November 2021, 06:31 PM   #108
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The scam(?) continues.

I went from having to borrow money to making $4m in a day’: how NFTs are shaking up the art world

https://www.theguardian.com/artandde...-the-art-world

Quote:
Digital art is a billion-dollar business, with everyone from Paris Hilton to Damien Hirst trading in ‘non-fungible tokens’. But are NFTs just a get-rich-quick scheme masquerading as culture?
The examples in the article seem to prove the World has gone insane.
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Old 9th November 2021, 07:05 AM   #109
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Seems to be a bit of buzz about algorithmically generated "collectible" NFT pieces. NFTs like "Lazy Lions" or "Bored Apes" are somewhat popular on social media.

Seems pretty likely to me that this is just a pump and dump scheme, with founders wildly inflating the value of these allegedly collectible pieces through wash trades before offloading the worthless assets at high prices to clueless rubes trying to get rich quick.

https://nftevening.com/lazy-lions-nf...ut-in-5-hours/

Pump and dump is being charitable, as often these turn out to be little more than rug-pull scams.

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Old 9th November 2021, 08:00 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems to be a bit of buzz about algorithmically generated "collectible" NFT pieces. NFTs like "Lazy Lions" or "Bored Apes" are somewhat popular on social media.

Seems pretty likely to me that this is just a pump and dump scheme, with founders wildly inflating the value of these allegedly collectible pieces through wash trades before offloading the worthless assets at high prices to clueless rubes trying to get rich quick.

https://nftevening.com/lazy-lions-nf...ut-in-5-hours/

Pump and dump is being charitable, as often these turn out to be little more than rug-pull scams.
"There's a fool born every minute" (attrib P. T. Barnum)
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Old 10th November 2021, 10:52 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Pump and dump is being charitable, as often these turn out to be little more than rug-pull scams.
We're in November and the floor is still about 1eth for Lazy Lions. That's really good.

Also, people have to mint NFTs. Creating an NFT like Lazy Lions is no different than starting any other tech company, or small business. You're going to hype your brand and try to get as many people to buy your product as possible. The fact LL has held that value for a few months is pretty encouraging.

I know there's a lot of hate for NFTs, I just don't understand why. It's just like every other hobby featuring collectibles or art. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Explain to me how collecting John Deere **** is any better or worse than an NFT.
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Old 10th November 2021, 01:05 PM   #112
Olmstead
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
We're in November and the floor is still about 1eth for Lazy Lions. That's really good.

Also, people have to mint NFTs. Creating an NFT like Lazy Lions is no different than starting any other tech company, or small business. You're going to hype your brand and try to get as many people to buy your product as possible. The fact LL has held that value for a few months is pretty encouraging.

I know there's a lot of hate for NFTs, I just don't understand why. It's just like every other hobby featuring collectibles or art. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Explain to me how collecting John Deere **** is any better or worse than an NFT.
It's a psychological trick creating fake value. Some things that do that are considered a scam.
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Old 10th November 2021, 01:23 PM   #113
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Well yeah but it's the ONLY way to create value for purely digital goods, made up fake scarcity.
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Old 10th November 2021, 01:36 PM   #114
Olmstead
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well yeah but it's the ONLY way to create value for purely digital goods, made up fake scarcity.
Digital goods have been doing okay so far?

You can't have a billion dollar digital painting, but that might be for the best.

And this won't be some boon for independent artists. The money always flows upwards.
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Old 12th November 2021, 10:07 PM   #115
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Not really sure what to think about NFTs at this point, but here's an interesting piece from Harvard Business Review discussing the issue of "How NFTs Create Value":

https://hbr.org/2021/11/how-nfts-create-value

Quote:
But NFTs don’t just provide a kind of digital “deed.” Because blockchains are programmable, it’s possible to endow NFTs with features that enable them to expand their purpose over time, or even to provide direct utility to their holders. In other words, NFTs can do things — or let their owners do things — in both digital spaces and the physical world.

In this sense, NFTs can function like membership cards or tickets, providing access to events, exclusive merchandise, and special discounts — as well as serving as digital keys to online spaces where holders can engage with each other. Moreover, because the blockchain is public, it’s even possible to send additional products directly to anyone who owns a given token. All of this gives NFT holders value over and above simple ownership — and provides creators with a vector to build a highly engaged community around their brands.
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Old 12th November 2021, 11:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Not really sure what to think about NFTs at this point, but here's an interesting piece from Harvard Business Review discussing the issue of "How NFTs Create Value":

https://hbr.org/2021/11/how-nfts-create-value
NFT's create value if you value what they create. Since that's true of just about everything but bread and shoes, it doesn't seem all that new.

So far the perks named are possible, but don't actually exist yet. Really all that article seems to be saying is that NFT's could serve as a mailing list. Of course if the perks of the NFT are included at the time it's bought, that would be something else, but if they're not included they're not required, just virtual like so much else.

Back in the twentieth century you weren't anybody unless you were in the in crowd. It was very stressful. Now in the metacrowd you can dress your avatar in an expensive, exclusive metadress and mingle with celebrities you once could only imagine.
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Old 13th November 2021, 08:52 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Not really sure what to think about NFTs at this point, but here's an interesting piece from Harvard Business Review discussing the issue of "How NFTs Create Value":

https://hbr.org/2021/11/how-nfts-create-value
It's sentences like these:

Quote:
provides creators with a vector to build a highly engaged community around their brands
that make me feel very, very tired. What the eff does that even mean? Is anything real anymore?! I guess I'm more of a traditional capitalist, and I'll go out clutching a goblet in a huge echoing mansion with a Scrooge McDuckian vault of actual physical gold before I have a "brand", much less "build highly engaged communities". Ugh. Everything today is buzzwords and nonsense. *shakes fist at clouds*
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Old 13th November 2021, 09:18 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's sentences like these:



that make me feel very, very tired. What the eff does that even mean? Is anything real anymore?! I guess I'm more of a traditional capitalist, and I'll go out clutching a goblet in a huge echoing mansion with a Scrooge McDuckian vault of actual physical gold before I have a "brand", much less "build highly engaged communities". Ugh. Everything today is buzzwords and nonsense. *shakes fist at clouds*
Isn't it grand! Isn't it fine! Look at the cut, the style, the line!
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Old 13th November 2021, 12:23 PM   #119
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I just look at this and lament how I missed the boat. If only I'd realized back when I was 12 that when I wanked to a lingerie ad I was constructing a metaverse, I'd own half the world by now.
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Old 13th November 2021, 04:07 PM   #120
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This NFT thing is bringing the get-rich-quick people out of the woodwork. Many of my Facebook friends are shilling this with “message me for more details!”

I really do not understand the modern world. I feel like my grandparents must have felt when they heard about “computers,” back in the day.
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